Why Sci-fi & Fantasy Can't Fix Its White Savior Problem

[@Princess_Weekes]

so I've gotten a lot of comments about why I put Paul and Dany in the video when they are not white saviors, and, yes, there is a degree of clickbait in having them there. However, my point in the video that I believed was clear, but as I edit these videos myself, I can admit to maybe not explaining as well as I could, is that even when characters deconstruct that trope, it doesn't mean that it is effective. Nor does it mean that the audience walks away with a thoughtful opinion of the non-white characters that surround them. People have been discussing whether Paul is a white savior since the book's publication, especially since most audiences only read the first book. Literally, Denis brings that up in the clip I play at 45:06, that even Frank Herbert was upset that people saw Paul as the hero. People pushed back against multiple BIPOC creators when people would bring up Dany's imperialistic tendencies in the show and books. I am not saying these things just to say them. I promise. xx Princess

[@ejacks3]

Hey Princess, thanks for being clearer about Dune and having some self-reflection. I appreciate you because that's more than most white male content creators who constantly label everything as "woke" or an example or DEI for clickbait. ☮

[@gentlerat]

That was the whole point of the video. You made it pretty clear.

[@rangda_prime]

I love how Herbert was so upset that he in a storm of fury and lack of an editor he wrote Dune Messiah which pretty much opens with "The war was over and Paul had killed over 61 billion people". But it didn't help much, as you point out.

[@brokenrock13]

In the books, Paul wasn’t white. No one was. The only color that mattered was that of the eyes. I see a lot of people using that character as an argument for the white savior trope but it doesn’t really fit unless you’re specifically talking about the movies and series. Your analysis is still top notch as always though. I’m just sorry it took so long to actually watch this.

[@ramzihamdallah]

the whiteness of the white savior isnt the literal whiteness of their skin but the whiteness of their privelege and the mindset that comes with that privelege. paul the elevated alien son of alien bourgois oppressor falls from grace to rise up and save the oppressed? idk sounds white saviory to me. if hes not a yt savior its because hes not a savior at all. not because hes not specifically white.

[@OverlySarcasticProductions]

Villeneuve solves the problem by letting Chani give explicit voice to the subtext when he could've just done what they did in Dune (1984) and make the cast 100% white, which *definitely* fixes the white savior thing and definitely doesn't make it significantly worse -R

[@samiai8905]

Oh man this comment is ironic considering your stance on actual resistance movements and white liberalism that the white saviourism is rooted from

[@justarandomcommenter570]

Well tbf in Dunes case im not sure if theres too much of a problem if its movie adaptation has a cast that is all white, black, brown or even purple lol Why? Because its set thousands of years in the future in a galaxy spanning empire where their ideas of race and culture share some similarities but have been vastly mixed, altered and different over thousands of years. They wouldnt have the same conceptions as we do today... *inhales for more explanation* Take the Atreides for example. They originate from Greece and have mediterranean influences plus Catalonian heritage with their culture of bullfighting (and in the 2021 movie they also have scottish influences). Duke Leto isnt even described as white in the books, but a man with "dark olive skin and black hair".... Even the Fremen arent a 1:1 of modern arabs. They are clearly inspired, but they arent only arab but a mix of ethnicities as their ancestors were wanderers who practiced a mix of zen buddhism and sunni muslim beliefs. They also had various influences from Arab/North African nomadic cultures and a bit of the Caucauses. Hell, even if a Atreides or Harkonnen were both white, blonde, blue-eyed and descended from european ethnicities, they'd still consider each other inferiors to be destroyed due to their hatred of each others Houses...Dune seems more preoccupied with ones lineage, clan, noble house or abilities than just skin color imo *spoilers ahead* Not to mention the secret eugenics plan of the Bene Gesserit to bring about the Kwisatz Haderach (their ultimate prescient superhuman) was a project that spanned centuries and deffo involved all sorts of ethnicities from many worlds. They needed all the best genetics from humanity as whole so they couldnt be picky even if they didnt like someones skin color lol. Paul Atreides just so happened to lucky (or unlucky) enough to become their genetic breakthrough. Just my two cents on it as someone whose read the books and seen the movies. Though I do also appreciate they made Chani the voice to oppose Pauls control of the Fremen because as his love she'd be more likely to see through his BS and because the books didnt bring up any Fremen perspectives/reservations on Pauls rise to power and it was only through Pauls internal dialogue that we explore the darker undertones of his prophecy..

[@spiritualanarchist8162]

In the book, it's far more clear the Paul becomes part of the native community , not so much barge in and save it . He's more a white refugee who has to fight and prove himself many times before being accepted as a 'space-islamist ' Fremen .The movies make it seem as if it all happens in a short time.The book covers years and years of Paul becoming a fremen , and remaining a fremen even after he takes the throne. The book is also about religious propaganda ,but that's another part of a long story.

[@thekage100]

Wait???? What do you mean?? What did they say about resistance and saviors? 😢​@@samiai8905

[@thekage100]

​@@justarandomcommenter570 L take in my book. I get your perspective, but it still has huge implications to steal other peoples culture and using it... because we DONT live in the future, but in the real world. Any good story reflects that. For good and in Dunes Islamophobic Orientalist case...very bad. 😅 Oh..i have also heard that the books end with this? Is it true that Arrakis is destroyed for Zionist Jews to take it for themselves? And get a new country? Ups.. Planet 😅😅

[@kateadams5574]

** movie spoilers** we didn't get an evil toddler in the new version but we do have a pregnant woman essentially plotting world domination with her baby bump and I think that's also fun

[@swiftfated]

Oh lol. I haven't seen it yet but I love that change.

[@o.m9514]

OMG, his sister did that as a child!

[@SimonBuchanNz]

There's one shot in particular where she's literally talking to the baby like she's a supervillain explaining her evil plan to the hero. It ends with her looking at some of her targets saying "we'll start with the weak and vulnerable ones" with the most evil face 😂 As over the top as that scene is, peak delivery by Ferguson.

[@moustik31]

Why is my 1st instinct to shout: "good for her"? 😭

[@emilyrln]

@@SimonBuchanNzit's sooooo good 😂😂😂

[@dapiridoob]

There's a slew of comments saying: "FYI, Paul is a criticism of white saviors and Messiahs, do your research", from people who didn't watch the video.... She addresses this in the video and adds further nuance.... At least watch the content before you criticize, which is the exact thing you claim she didn't do....

[@nailinthefashion]

No let them be court jesters we need some extra comedic relief

[@glynislily]

I literally watched the video because I knew she would have a more nuanced take than just misunderstanding the movie.

[@katmannsson]

Me who knee Jerked "aylmao Paul was supposed to be an indictment" then saw who posted it and went "She knows that, Ill shut up and watch"

[@osmanyousif7849]

If anything, I feel like the bigger issue is the fact that the Harkonnens were: 1. Really downplayed in the second movie instead of being the unstoppable force that they were in the first. 2. They didn’t get enough character development so we could establish the fact that Paul is going down a darker path. Because if they did, it would lead audiences to even question if Paul is really the lesser of two evils.

[@mellowthm566]

The cautionary tale bit only works with the texts viewpoint on prescience. That's why it's a white man's burden story, ahhh the tragedy of power but he must take it or something even worse will happen. The language of sacrifice is used a lot for the Atreides galactic genocide, at least their sacrifice. There's a lot of the logics of eugenics underlining the plot's mechanics as well- "human race must go through this or perish". As much as I love Dune it's best taken as a cautionary tale that's aimed to assuage those who take the prescriptive of the oppressor. And well later books magnify this. The kinda bleak fatalist fascism inspired a lot of other works like Warhammer 40k for a reason.

[@juliusmunemo8754]

“He not built for that shit really” is a perfect description of The Golden Path

[@jbear3478]

Lmao that made me laugh. Bc he isn’t. He leaves that sacrifice for his son

[@victoriabugado6272]

You make a good point about the limitations of being able to critique the White Savior trope when writing from the perspective of the White character. N.K. Jemison (who is Black) and Courtney Milan (who is Chinese-American) have written really good stories from the perspective of the colonized rather than the colonizers.

[@LindaDanvers]

Which books of Courtney Milan do you recommend in particular?

[@victoriabugado6272]

@@LindaDanversI love all of her books, but I think The Devil Comes Courting and The Duke Who Didn't are particularly good.

[@Princess_Weekes]

Time stamps updated! TY for your patience. I have been trying to do this thing where I don't add like a bunch of disclaimers and caveats to every thing I say-but if you think I missed anything please lemme know down below

[@samf.s.7731]

Love your work!

[@Lucidly222]

I’m also a huge fan of your channel! thank for sharing well researched & thought provoking entertainment

[@alexandramaclachlan7597]

Heya lovely! What's the song you play in your credits? It's a bop :D Great video btw xx

[@shzarmai]

Cool video

[@pplr1]

Thank you for your thoughtful videos. I'd argue that black, hispanic, or __ saviors aren't a problem if they are part of ending or reforming an unjust and oppressive system. Lincoln was a white guy who did profound damage to the system of slavery-he needed people like Frederick Douglas (who should been in the movie about Lincoln). But in a system based on white males like 1800s political power was then necessarily an abolitionist President had to come in the form of a white guy. I'd argue something to keep an eye out for is stories that have a coalition of people from different ethnic groups. Ironically that is 1 of the things that Daenerys from GoT builds. Your criticism of her not understanding other cultures is 1 I've heard before and has validity, however there is no indication the democracy she started transitioning Meereen/Bay of Dragons to near the end of Season Six of GoT failed. In the books her anti-slavery efforts are being undercut (including by Hizdar who is a different character in the books than the show) but the show story indicates Meereen is something of a success. Having common people and former slaves of Meereen being empowered to "pick" their own "rulers"-as Daenerys said it-provides a possibility they will be able to empower rulers that ensure slavery stays gone and potentially deal with other things they (commoners and former slaves) may see as problems. Thank you for pointing out Randyll comes from a loyalist family and shouldn't see Daenerys as foreign. You may not have had time in the video to go into it but it is worse than that. He admitted Cersei blew up the Sept when Tyrion mentioned the death of Margaery Tyrell. So Randyll is supposedly following someone who destroyed 1 of the largest and most important temples in Westeros in order to supposedly protect temples in Westeros. And Daenerys having him executed would've looked bad if it wasn't for the fact that Ned Stark would've executed him too (via sword rather than dragon) for being an Oathbreaker to Lady Olenna. Plus Randyll turned down 2 chances to live while it appears the army under his command took no prisoners when attacking the Tyrell castle (only Jamie intervening allowed for Lady Olenna to be killed in nicer way rather than being tortured before execution). So even when they are trying to make Daenerys look bad the context of the situation still makes Daenerys better than Cersei. Back to my coalition point. 1 of the many things that bothered me about season 8 (which I argue doesn't have to be considered part of GoT due to the number of times Seasons 1-7 of GoT contradict it including Season 2 clearly showing bells don't mean surrender in King's Landing) is a multi-ethnic coalition headed by female season 8 Dany is portrayed as Nazis in the speech scene while white male duality of Jon and Tyrion (who plot to commit an act of violence-assassination is typically not pacifism-rather than talk someone who listened to both of them before back to reality) are supposedly the good guys.

[@WeAreTheTwintails]

What people don't understand about Dany when she stopped those women from getting raped is that she was 14 years old! She was horrified, and rightly so! She was naïve and stupid because she was a literal child.

[@bootalophosaurus2378]

One big learning opportunity as a very white person from a very homogenously white city in Europe was doing an internship in central Africa during my psychology studies. I have been raised to think of myself as privileged and that my knowledge and education is some of the best in the world. I arrogantly assumed that I would have at least as much to give as I took from the experience, just as would likely be the case if I had interned in my home country. Only once I arrived did I realize how little value my western education actually had in that context, in part because most research on mental illness comes from western countries, not taking culture or financial situation into account. I used to think that my privilege and experience made me in some way responsible in the face of inequity, but what I think many people don’t realize, is how little value their experience can actually provide in a different context. It made me understand the whole white saviour complex thing a lot better, and I think many people never have the chance to be in the position I was in, to despite extensive education, struggle to be helpful due to a lack of knowledge about the culture and a lack of research. I still feel culpable for participating in the proliferation of inequality even just when grocery shopping, but I was cured of the delusion that I could ever actually improve anything by just going somewhere and sharing my knowledge without first listening and learning until I’m on the same level as the people in that place. In my defence I never had the goal of saving anyone, I just thought I’d rather do my mandatory internship somewhere interesting. But I think it’s always interesting to read how people try to overcome their ignorance, so I hope someone’s interested.

[@fuowl666]

Hopefully as a psychologist you don't fuck up your patients with your internalized racist guilt complex.

[@klisterklister2367]

@@fuowl666 How would this show up in a clinical setting with a patient?

[@fuowl666]

@@klisterklister2367 It could show up by ideological indoctrination as for example documented in this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/l2XZYpaYZZmpeJY

[@fuowl666]

@@klisterklister2367 It could show up by ideological indoctrination. There is a video with the title "Heresies... how psychology went mad" that documents this in great detail. ( I wanted to post you the link, but my comment didn't appear.)

[@fionatastic0.070]

@@fuowl666Because being ignorant about racism is so much better/s

[@brutusmagnuson315]

As long as people want… “relatable” protagonists in “exotic” settings, you’re gonna have this problem. Unfortunately, it’s very marketable. I think one solution to adventure stories could be having protagonists who aren’t White and avoiding having characters Mary Sue their way into being better at adapting to a place than… the people who’ve lived there for generations, somehow.

[@stephennootens916]

I think one of the big problems at least with film is they sort of half ass everything. Sure they put in a protagonist who isn't just another white dude but they don't seem to bother to put them in a good story or they write them horrible.

[@mellowthm566]

I'm looking for a fantasy epic that is decolonizing in plot/theme. (Don't say N.K. Jemisin already has her Earth trilogy.) Where if a character is foreign fighting a oppressor they experience being Other and culture clash and such but while they share a fight they don't live there and don't need power and cultural exchange and coalition are cornerstones of alliances. More fantasy needs thoughtful culture clash too.

[@brutusmagnuson315]

@@mellowthm566 Wrote a Sci-fi story series with similar themes, as a teenager. It was kinda hard to follow because there were too many cultures, complicated alien names and societies kept changing and shifting as technologies and cultures collided and caused catastrophic events

[@ElvishShellfish]

The Shogun adaptation did this pretty dang well I'd say. John Blackthorn is good at what he is good at, and a capable main character, but he isn't any kind of Mary Sue, just a guy trying to navigate a challenging situation, and a tool in Toranaga's tool belt.

[@jordanwhite352]

I plan on watching the video later because my internet is so crappy, but what I find so amusing about everyone including dune in this. Is that right now the dude movie seem to be going through the same exact thing that happened with the Dune books. Whole point of the dune books is that it was critical of every single thing, particularly of organized religion and dogma and cultures. And in particular Paul is supposed to be like the horror of that. He seems like he's doing good on paper, but he's actually the villain. Frank Herbert wrote that he realized everyone was reacting the same way everyone's reacting to the movies and went all hell no and wrote Dune Messiah which further explicitly takes a shit on the entire pall seems heroic by making him full-on Space Hitler. That's why I can't wait until the Dune Messiah movies made, which is the director has very much expressed that he wants to do because I bet you anything. We're going to see a whole new wave of oh no dune has gone completely woke narratives when those were the actual original text.

[@boia9084]

paul was never space hitler. dune messiah had been planned and there was hinting of what was to come even in the first dune book. The atreides were never the "noble" saviors of arrakis, they are clearly shown to use and manipulate fremen to get to their end goal. Paul tried to do what was best but his path led to something he could no longer control, his religion quite literally got out of hands, he's constantly shown to be struggling with taking what he perceives to be the best path forward. because at the end of the day his interpretations of his visions are just that. his interpretations. he's not a villain. he's just not the noble fairytale hero. his fucking son turns into a dictator worm delving into eugenics and even he isn't your average villain stereotype. he had to do what was best for humanity, he had to do what his father couldnt do and become the worm god so humans could escape prescience and truly decide their own fate.

[@anna2731]

Then you should watch the video. Your points are adressed there..

[@hambone.fakenamington]

i feel like spell check failed you. good points but also DUDE MESSIAH!

[@punkitt]

Dude Messiah.......

[@apinchofdisappointment]

@@punkitt😭😭😭😭😭😭

[@meander112]

Poor, poor, Duncan Idaho. Off to watch this on Nebula!

[@vanillaplanifoliae]

idk if this is weird to say but thank you for the recap section at the end, it was nice

[@andrewwestfall65]

Talks about this reminds me of a discussion in my DnD group. We were talking about an anime, Gundam Iron Blooded Orphans. Iron Blooded Orphans is about a group of children sold to a military group to be enslaved soldiers because colonization, they rebel against the mercenary group and become a revolutionary army. There is a character Dalton, he is a soldier for the colonizers. In a lot of ways he's a standard anime protag, dutiful, loyal, and kind. A new guy in the group loves Dalton and was annoyed because Dalton has a villain turn. I had to explain that the point was that all of Dalton's positive traits were used to turn him into a a bloodthirsty madman that viewed those from the colonies as inherently savage subhumans because it was beneficial to the higher ups so they lied and manipulated him into becoming a machine of war. The new guy new the story better than I did, but had no idea how to string the events together to see that there was a point

[@the_d12rose]

"frontal lobe--" *pause, timothy chalamet smiles* MASTERFUL

[@AM_on_YT]

Things get so hopelessly bleak for the Fremen and the planet in book 2-3. Book 3 even plays with themes of climate change, which is an even bigger concern NOW. I imagine it is going to become a big theme in the third movie - turns out fundamentally changing a planet's climate has some downsides D:

[@BobtheX]

I think Dune as a franchise has Climate change as it's ultimate theme. Even up to the fourth book, the ultimate point is that civilization is shaped by the landscapes they form on.

[@goblinking382]

I really appreciate the recap at the end of the video. Thanks for your work.

[@scofah]

I love love love that this essay doesn't have background music. Thank you, Princess W!!!!!!

[@lbjcb5]

Another excellent essay! That conclusion is so clear. I want everyone to hear it. Please make a short!

[@Direfloof]

Your mom may think you’re special, but she’ll never think you’re Lisan al Gaib special.

[@crb8124]

A. Paul isn't the hero, B. Paul in the books isn't White, the only White characters in the books are the Harkonnens Also, Valyrians are native Essosians, and Essos is much whiter in the books than in the show which had to deal with local casting. So Dany has more in common with The Dothraki, Slavers, etc... than she does with Westerosi, genetically.

[@NaiveandWise]

Best ad plug i've ever seen

[@yippedoodah]

I had a blonde white friend a long time ago who loved Danaerys and was in denial about the white savior trope. She would just be like "Mmm I don't see it" while in real life, tried to be a white savior for her POC friends so she could have talking points to other white folks. She stopped wanting to help them once the issues got serious and were no longer convenient for her.

[@VaporeAnne]

I love your breakdowns!!

[@TeamTee]

Thank you for posting your sources! My reading list continues to expand in the most incredible way, thanks to you and your channel. 🙏🏽✨

[@AlbertoGarcia-wd7sc]

The show's handling of Daenerys was a disaster. Creators knew she was going to become "the mad queen" because Martin told them so and for that they had to force her to be that character instead of making her evolve naturally. Shortened seasons didn't help.

[@patrickblanchette4337]

36:57 Lindsey Ellis was right on the money when she basically said it’s crazy that more Westerosi aren’t bending over to dethrone Cersei (either for Dani or against).

[@LarthV]

Because she may be a bloody tyrant - but this tyrant is one of them. Seriously tough, that is actually an important lesson from all kinds of historical eras: People by and large rarely do that. Instead, they often fight tooth and nail to protect the status quo for fear of being even worse off otherwise.

[@patrickblanchette4337]

@@LarthV I mean, wouldn’t Dani be The status quo (Considering that her family ruled Westeros for hundreds of years while the Lannisters have only ruled for less then 50 years)? Regardless of that, considering Cersei blew up a center of Westerosi religion, wouldn’t she be seen at the opposite of the status quo? Anyway, thank you for the reply and the insight into human psychology.

[@LarthV]

@@patrickblanchette4337 Supporting Dany does mean a change in the system, for better or worse, and people who have stakes in the current state of the realm (that was what I meant by status quo) will be afraid to loose that. Also her big problem is that she comes with basically no natives at all, only people from a different culture, implying a "foreign takeover", where spreading rumors is easy ("She will make the Dothraki lords instead of you!") Now in the books (sorry for mentioning that, I have to) all this is bypassed by a claimed son of Danys eldest brother Rhaegar, who actually comes with an army of Westerosi exiles, thus giving him a lot of "locality" or "nativity" in his claim. But the show itself does not, and Dany still is coming at the head of an army of foreigners. And definitely Cerseis destruction of the sept is a big plot point that was just "forgotten" (*sigh*). The show was just bad at this, so I am not sure if we can use logic to explain things (although they should be held accountable for being unlogical), but still she is someone brutal they "know", while Dany is someone they do not "know", which may be the problem regardless. Things may just not be dire enough for the people to risk exchanging someone brutal they know for someone they do not know. Besides, I was not trying to be snarky or the like and apologise if I had appeared to do so...

[@patrickblanchette4337]

@@LarthV No apologies needed & thank you for your great insight into this matter😊.

[@GuymelefSang]

The way I am so glad I waited to watch this when I had to savor all the beautiful gems, such a great take on Paul and honestly the community surrounding Dune and it's like. Loved this video.

[@katekursive1370]

Also really relate to that giving-taking away whiteness as it fits the global powers aspect, as a Ukrainian. My personal experience throughout the russian invasion is very tangled in that back-and-forth from everyone outside CEE context.

[@Kurzker]

Ukraine? You mean the fictional country?

[@SlytherinShark888]

Thank you for your scholarship and contributions.

[@zackpumpkinhead8882]

Why can't we get an expansive, vibrant interstellar Sci fi universe seen through a kinda lower middle class trucker type. He/she is knowledgeable about intergalactic conflicts, interacts with them through the hazards of the profession, but is still *NOT RESPONCIBLE FOR MASSIVE HISTORICAL EVENTS* Perhaps, at the end of it dying from causes completely outside of their control and not coincidentally related to the actions of who the "good guys" would be of the work's Star Wars equivalent

[@tinawexler6547]

Firefly kinda came close to that. Main characters were involved in but not the major drivers of the rebellion and then just did space crime for an entire season.

[@tonylex3760]

Well, people want to see one person change the world. We all wish we could

[@wywrd_mtnt]

I mean, this is a matter of who has the more interesting story. it's usually the one changing the galaxy, not the one who lives in it. but it would make for a cool exploration of the scifi genre!

[@bluewilliams4911]

Space Sweepers does this

[@Dragonshade64]

I mean... A spacetruckers cyberpunk sounds fun. But why does the protagonist have to die at the end? Are we covering their entire life story or is it just because pointless sci- fi grimdark must be satisfied?

[@latinedits-y1c]

damn, the bit about colonized kids being exposed to their colonizer's literature and how that messes up with their sense of worth, got to me. personally by reading fantasy for engalnd and watching usa tv, it make me resent my own culture or wanting to "exchange" ut.

[@BookChats]

I still send your PBS video about the Dune series to people (in lieu of reading the books, sorry) so I'm SO EXCITED that you made this video too!

[@richmaxwell5042]

Beautifully done and spot on💯👍🏾🙂❤️👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾

[@otakusatanist]

im shocked how many great videoessay channels you can find through magic the gathering, first spice8rack, now you through prof! great vid, much live!

[@JeraWizard]

"it's got good miniature sets!" HAHA I relate to this

[@Ech0.x]

The second I watched dune 2 I was like “I know I’m gonna enjoy the Princess Weekes video on this”

[@friend_trilobot]

There is a story written in 1938 that took inspiration from the Barsoon series and similar genre fiction of the era, which even has a plot similar to John Carter but somehow manages to not do the white savior trope. It's a bad example bc its Out of the Silent Planet by CS Lewis and has other problematic elements, and is very religiously themed, but it does manage (I think almost by accident?) to subvert the white savior trope to a degree. The protagonist, Dr Elwin Ransom, is based on the irl JRR Tolkien and is a professor of language who honestly seems to be a person who has no desire to be in a sf story, which helps him not become its savior i guess, lol. He is kidnapped against his will and taken to Mars by other white men who do have colonial ideas (mostly stealing gold, though they act like they are also doing holy work for humanity and paving the way to a brighter future) and intend to offer Ransom as a human sacrifice - the aliens don't want this, to be clear, they just want the humans to stop taking gold - not even bc they value gold but bc they think the human obsession with gold - the greed they see - is unnatural and unhealthy. But bc of a language barrier, mixed with a lot of prejudice, they assume they will be appeased by a human sacrifice. Once on Mars Ransom flees his captors and lives among indigenous coded martians who actually look a lot like animals (like giant river otters) but are shown thoroughly to be just as intelligent and culturally nuanced as the humans and other martians. Lewis actually talked about this in a nonfiction essay titled "religion and rocketry" - he wagered humans wouldn't be able to tell whether an alien species was sentiebt or not, and that aliens might look like what we call "animals" and yet be intelligent. Anyways, Ransom learns their language and culture, engages in an important cultural activity (hunting a giant river monster) and wins accolades for helping slay the monster, but almost immediately afterwards his friend (he has no female love interest, only a male friend among the aliens) gets shot by the other humans bc they think he's an animal. Ransom is ashamed of his heritage and the violence of humanity and warns the aliens that the humans are evil and mean them no good, him included bc he being in their proximity is the reason the humans came there, and now his friend is dead. In contrast to the humans, the aliens seem to lack most social problems and have an idealic society. Bc of this, there is a risk of these indigenous martians being framed as the noble savage, but he also finds out that the Martians have a multi-species society. Three distinct species regularly interact and cooperate and none of them exert more social control than the others, and no heirarchy exists. And the other races aren't indigenous-coded but are coded as being unusually ethical and kind as well. One group are scientists that don't hoard technology or engage in capitalism but share their knowledge freely and record in writing the oral traditions of the indigenous tribes with their permission and give them useful tools when they want them. Another are basically dwarves but shaped like cricket-shrews who like crafting with metal and make the machines the scientists design. But, like, the lingua franca of Mars is the language of the indigenous people bc "they have the best poetry" and it is agreed that the other species will benefit from learning their language if only to hear their poetry firsthand. It's great. And though the planet has an arch-ruler who isn't a martian, it's a benevolant, multi-dimensional celestial being coded as a biblically accurate angel who exists on a higher plain and can take many forms - it protects and preserves the aliens from outsiders, and saved them from dying out when another celestial being attacked mars and rendered it largely hostile (why its batten today). This being literally yeets all the humans, including Ransom, back to earth in their ship, saying it will disintegrate the ship a few hours after they land, and any humans still in it, and that they had better not try to come back by building a new one. There's even a scene where one of the bad guy humans tries to give a speech about how humans are superior, more technologically advanced (which they aren't even) and have a noble calling to conquer the stars and expand the future lifespan of humans, but it all has to be translated by Ransom who has a low vocabulary in Martian and renders his speech ridiculous by having to use plain simple words to describe it. It reveals the simple unethics of his words. And all the while the white guys are assuming that the celestisl being is just a trick of charlatans and that they can see through the superstitions of these "primitive" aliens and refuse to respect their requests or talk directly to the invisible being addressing them. Of course, the reason the aliens are good and humans are allowed to be evil in this story is bc this story is written from a medieval cosmology perspective. Lewis said basically that though earth was seen as the center of the cosmos in the middle ages, hell was at the center of earth and Satan at the center of hell. Earth wasn't the best place to be but the lowest and most sinful place to be, while the planets were holy and pure and guided by angelic beings. In Lewis's cosmology in this series earth had a cosmic guide as well, but the guide became satan, known as the "bent one" the one who attacked mars in the ancient past, before being imprisoned on earth, unable to pass the boundary of the moon's orbit. We are the "silent planet" bc evil (being "bent") is a uniquely earth trait and we are meant to be quarantined on earth. And though many things that Lewis claims are "bent" are stuff i don't agree with, Lewis also places the conquering and colonization of other worlds for the sake of extending the lifespan of your species as one of those "bent" ideas. And it interesting to me that it manages to come so close to the white savior trope by imitating retro sf tropes but warping them to suit a medieval worldview. Who knew combining the two produces an anti-colonial message(?) But tbc, there are many problematic elements and the other two books in the series are their own can of worms, so this is not a recommendation. But if the books ever enter public domain I would want to adapt them as an anti-colonial sf narrative - I think it could be great

[@RigelDeneb172]

Good heavens! I first read Out of the Silent Planet around the same time I first read Dune--and never saw this connection. Of course, I was pretty young at the time, around sixteen years old and was reading SF for "the wonder". Dune for me was all about the worms and the weirdness of the planet. Thanks! How funny that a conservative highly religious very much an Englishman writer manages to subvert the "white savior" trope more effectively and in one scene than Herbert is able to do in a series of thick books. A clear case of "too much complexity and subtlety can obscure the theme" I think.

[@mynameisd2849]

The thing about Paul that solidified him in mi mind is that when he drank the water of life he saw a future with him, his mother and his sister being happy, but that future would not have given him revenge, so he CHOSE vengeance

[@WhyseWytch]

These were fantastic insights! As a (admittedly white) writer, I try to be aware of offensive biases such as the white savior trope. Thank you for this video!

[@kryskross9027]

“Uploaded 10 mins ago” I clicked SO FAST lol ❤❤❤

[@TylaStark]

"They ain't no divas" 😂😂 that tiktok also lives in my head

[@AzaleaJane]

I remember seeing an interview with George RR Martin where he was asked about the infamous scene in GoT. In the books the freed slaves are a jumble of colors and ethnicities, including white, but in the show they were shooting those scenes in Morocco, where they hired local extras who were predominantly brown. He acknowledged that maybe the show could have made more of an effort to have those extras be more diverse. Too late again, George!

[@jerrytheskeleton8726]

Your turn to the subject of fanfiction was unexpected, but definitely enjoyed!

[@hua_tetsu_cat]

Daenerys is not a white saviour in the books the tv show depicted darker skinned people as slaves and slavers while in the books slavery is extremely broad in depiction

[@TNTales]

To what extent are authors responsible for bad faith claims and consumers with low media literacy? Can we not have subtext or must stories always come out and say, "hi I'm the author and this character will tell you what all this means because there are people that won't get it otherwise?" It ends up feeling preachy and condescending to readers that do get it.

[@J_Mock92]

I can understand the discourse when it comes to Dany in context of the show, but it just seems weird that this "white saviorness" is transplanted onto her book character. I guess shes "white" (super white most would say), but she's not only "saving" people of color... The show makes it look... not great, but in the books, the slaves in Essos are of all different skin colors and ethnicities. There are many passages where the difference in coloring/background of the slaves is noted, whether it be the Unsullied, Bed Slaves (who in Lys, often look quite similar to Dany) etc. Yeah, Dany is white, but I've always thought that her abolishment of Slavery has been a way to sort of contradict the horrible actions of her Valyrian ancestors (which _she_ doesnt even realky necessarily know the extent of btw). Im white, so Im not the greatest authority on such things, but the show really did book Dany (as well as others) a lot of injustice, even before it ran out of material to adapt..... (Edit: I'm clearly only speaking for Dany in ASOIAF, as I'm not very familiar with the other IP)

[@evren5642]

Yeah, I have to agree w this take. Essosi slavery is clearly not meant to be race-based, and instead it’s supposed to more closely mirror the slavery of Ancient Rome (which makes sense considering the Valyrians are basically stand-ins for the Romans). It’s clear the show didn’t make much effort to preserve this concept, though, as you said. But in terms of Dany and race in the books I have way more problems with how the Dothraki are depicted than anything to do with her anti-slavery storyline.

[@grutsthefoodman3645]

You nailed it

[@charlenegraham1923]

OMG, thank you! At this point in my evolution I just couldn't swallow Dune II. Actually walked out even though I was being entertained (my husband stayed - loves special effects 😮). Again, THANK YOU for putting words, history, and evidence to feelings I couldn't quite define or explained but embraced in spite of.

[@penjamingwrangler]

Good video always love listening to such topics like this

[@SnakeWasRight]

I severely disagree on why this trope repeats. Yes, some racists have used this trope. But, if anyone is familiar with the works of Joseph Campbell on mythology, the hero's journey, regardless of time or culture, always includes a hero, someone who can do what others cannot, who delves into a NEW WORLD to learn something, masters this new world, in order to change the old world, and/or him or herself. So, THIS is why characters, written by white people in white culture, will go to exotic locations. They are not going to see things with a new persepctive, learn new ways to live, by going to Wisconsin. They will have a revolution in the way of thinking and living by going to a FOREIGN land. Now, as white people, foreign lands will usually be populated by non white people. So, JUST with the elements of BASIC mythology, we will ALWAYS see this trope repeat, even if we have ZERO racist influence. And it works the same if you flip the perspective. Take Liu Cixin's novels, which feature CHINESE heroes becoming saviors. I dont find it strange that white people write about white people and chinese people write about chinese people.

[@mr.p215]

True. Look at anime. How many people go to a different, distinctly middle-ages/western fantasy setting.

[@SnakeWasRight]

@@mr.p215 yeah, like, Japanese people becoming the savior of some clearly white European place. No one bats an eyelash.

[@Mercel29]

How does that excuse presenting the “other savage” populations as less worthy or needing help from the white character to save them tho

[@rosesweetcharlotte]

I think my problem is that people fall back on the Hero's Journey so often that it gets boring. Or when they try and do some different, people get mad

[@SnakeWasRight]

@@rosesweetcharlotte when people use "the hero's journey" TM as a cookie cutter template without knowing why, sure. You don't actually get what you're doing. But the whole point of the hero's journey as a thing being described, is that it's a pattern that emerges in story and mythology for a good reason. That particular pattern is very psychologically stimulating and emotionally satisfying. There is a reason why deviations usually fail: They're static and boring. If the character doesn't go anywhere new, doesn't learn anything, doesn't get brought down low, doesn't change the world, and there are no obstacles, internal and/or external to their success, then 1, it's probably a really boring story, and 2, what was the point of it? What does the reader learn and what does the story mean? Struggle is story, which is why overpowered characters, for example, are famously amateurish. It's just the writer saying what they'd like to do, and not something the reader can get anything valuable from. Watching others overcome struggle is where we find meaning, and I think the pattern of the hero's journey naturally emerges from that. The hero being reluctant to go on the journey, or at least some aspect of it, that's an internal lie they must overcome. And it's not going to just solve itself by waiting around, they have to go gain new knowledge. And it's usually not just sitting around next to you, you have to go chase it. And the journey needs to be tough or what value does the knowledge have? If it's easy, what great feat did the hero accomplish? It would be something anyone can do. And of course, if they stay in the "other world," and never come back, what was the point of changing? Of course, you can deviate. What if the point of the story IS to leave the old world, and the obstacle is their ties to their toxic family, or a controlling religious group, and they need to break out of that? Yeah, that can work, but it will still contain a lot of the same elements, and IF it works, you still understand the core elements/ingredients that drive the more stereotypical hero's journey. Anyway, as you can tell, I definitely don't spend tons of time thinking about this 😄

[@lerayeason]

Great analysis!! I love your work!!

[@1Lanavis1]

I appreciate your perspectives and truth spitting

[@Mathue360]

Very well constructed and dictated video. Always a great experience

[@Sonderin]

Yeah, culture loves to romanticize the idea that the savior would come from above; when, in reality, he or she would likely come from far below. Like rock bottom. Think William Wallace, Spartacus, Django Unchained, etc... Those are practical saviors, even though one is fictional. Django's story in Unchained is basically Spartacus' retold, just without the gladiator element. In reality, characters like these don't usually get too far because they are greatly outnumbered, so often they seek to escape the world rather than try and save it. It's sad, truly.

[@louisst-amand9207]

can you make an Edelgard video? I'd love to see what you think of her character since you have a plush!

[@shadowone01x99]

Its odd u say "scifi" then post Kaylesi from MYSTICAL FANTASY Game of Thrones front and center which is NOT scifi.

[@HigherMammal]

I've been making the "dune runs on duncan" jokes for years and seeing it on your tee gives me such validation that it wasn't just an awful dad joke lmao

[@vanirie434]

John Carter is such a strange movie to think about because I actually saw it in theaters and really liked it for the direction, the performances, the effects and the worldbuilding, being literally just out of high school and then when I rewatched it as an adult as someone with friends who aren't white and Finnish, realising within the first five minutes that oh dear god the protagonist is a *straight-up Confederate* and the whole film sort of... bleeding into a slurry of racism as I kept watching it. I don't talk about it much, but it's one of those pieces of media where yes, at the time it had a huge influence on me but it's nearly impossible for me to discuss it anymore due to, just, growing up and knowing more about history and *reality*. It's no longer heroic, and it's very humbling to realise that it *was* heroic.

[@abbulous]

educational AND entertaining! thank you for this 👏

[@jamesradner4636]

Would be interesting to see that trope on it's head. Having a black savoir in the role with the exact same goals in mind. To teach about the main characters not being the good guys. Pretty sure white audiences would get it then. Problem is...that would just go the other direction. As in see there's a reason why black people should be feared. Pointing to the problem being much much more deeply embedded. Would be fun for black people to watch though. lol

[@not8brand]

gods i love her, could watch her talking dune forever! also just a dam great video [that shirt thoooooooooo :)]

[@zzs463]

Liliths Brood trilogy is one of the best sci fi books ever and its protogonist is a black woman, I love her and I highly recommend that book series

[@ChetHanks-eh1md]

Also what I loved most about dune is the intersection of islam, arabic culture, mysticism and science fiction. Is there more space science fiction from Arabic/Middle Eastern authors?

[@biteofdog]

Such a great video. This is literature content I love. I've only read the first book a couple of times, and the Bene Gesserit religion/society were the most alarming to read about because of all the malicious political power moves they were involved in. From there it seemed that no matter who has control of Arrakis is pretty evil and that all that matters is to repress the native population so that they (Harkonnen and Atreides or whoever) can strip mine the planet for the highly desired Spice Mélange. And thus, I understood Paul to be an unwitting villain (forcefully created/imposed by the Bene Gesserit) and his rule would be a continuation of the suffering of Arrakis.

[@mellsc9412]

Does anyone know any deconstructions of the “white savior” made by BIPOC? I’d definitely like to read/watch that

[@buttercupcoffee5972]

Thanks for making this.

[@crystald9663]

Thanks for another great analysis

[@DarrylVang]

omg just reading the title i said out loud 'THIS VIDEO IS FOR ME THIS VIDEO IS FOR MEEEE'

[@DarrylVang]

oh great ad btw

[@beetljam792]

i usually skip the ad portions but damn i should book bind

[@Henbot]

I do think reading The Wretched of The Earth and Exterminate all Brutes (Sahara Diaries) travelogue are really good for analysis of topics that bounce into this. Exterminate All Brutes travelogue has accounts of slaver being bemused at why his slaves are caring for him after he gets ill for malaria and not just throwing him into the river. Mind control of oppression is also impact oppressed way of thinking of themselves as well as oppressors just simply taking surface aesthetics and symbols that it rolls them up into emotional grouping and appropriation because they think it cool.

[@starrychan33]

The Barsoom series might be the first true isekai, by which I mean it's not just a portal world fantasy, like the already existing Alice in Wonderland and The Wizard of Oz, but where going into the other world gives one powers and it's clearly a power fantasy 🤔

[@ScarlettShana]

I’ve recently read book Ariel by Rus author - Alexander Belyaev. There’s white young boy who grew up in India. And he got super powers - flying. But he’s not white savior. He’s more like pray bc everyone wants to use him for his own good. All he wants to reunite with sister or to stay in India and live peacefully with his love interest and little boy. While others be like “let’s make him messiah”.

[@Jessamineann]

Princess, I’m watching this sick with a cold. And let me tell you, the inhale to chuckle at “old as balls” cause me to choke on my own phlegm and cough/laugh. Perfect comedic timing; the discomfort was worth it.

[@robertwilliams570]

😱😱😱 I’m just realizing the “Hey Arnold Jungle Movie” is a white savior movie‼️‼️‼️

[@Spencerdoken]

I feel like no matter how hard you deconstruct a harmful trope, there will be people who take it at face value.

[@jadejerry2013]

Wow, I never even read or watched Dune, but your explanation of Paul reminds me starkly of Eren Yeager from Attack on Titan, which I JUST finished watching last night. I'll spare the spoilers, but he's unredeemable and as a black viewer, I can't unsee the way his character is glorified by the show, by the vast majority of white characters in the show, and by white viewers of the show. This trope is frustrating on a very deep level for me.

[@meandkitty8387]

So ready for this

[@celiacresswell6909]

Awesome essay: erudite and exasperated (and funny) without being mean-spirited and resentful. Even the logic kind of hangs together.

[@patrickblanchette4337]

11:36 Do anyone else think any future rendition of Carter of Mars can become less problematic than the original by making Carter a former Union soldier? It’s weird why they didn’t do that in the Disney movie.

[@tessiagriffith9555]

Very helpful deconstruction thank you

[@Ian_mar]

Very insightful !!

[@Kazekou]

Princess. You are too good! Better start prepping the Sansa Stark white saviour video now. Cah, we all know the Khaleesis are looking for new character. And haven't yet noticed the Sansa set up yet

[@laranadesign4764]

@15:10 it's also a ton of fun and opens up other ideas like binding your own recipes for a BOS and more!

[@TheEighthAct]

omg let me hurry up and finish reading dune (4 years in) so i can watch this video

[@chibiktsn3]

"That is the side chick manifesto." Okay, this video is fantastic, but that like killed me XD

[@mariapdr3261]

Dany in the books is doing really badly as far as trying to achieve her goals and is something of a failure even with her dragons because conquest is easy ruling is hard. The show glosses over this really badly by not showing just how serious the issues were or how much she was struggling and in how much danger she found herself in. In the books, Qarth has declared war and Volantis is preparing to do the same while the other cities she conquered have been retaken and are going to attack. Meanwhile, she’s somewhere stranded with Drogon on the Great Grass Sea with a terrible fever and diarrhea and really bad hallucinations. Dany is not doing well at all and it’s precisely her youth and inexperience that has led to bad decisions which has made her a poor leader. In the books she doesn’t really seem like a stereotypical white savior because so far she’s not really succeeding, at least not without a lot of effort and struggle, and she’s not quite there.

[@swiftfated]

Ooh I want to hear the westeros race thoughts... Have you ever thought about uploading some pateron content onto nebula too? Maybe that's still to public a space for that particular vid but. Just a thought!

[@westcoast1155]

OH MY GOD is that where "She Who Must Be Obeyed" in Rumpole comes from?? It has to be; the series was created by a super old british guy. What a weird, retroactively uncomfortable reference!

[@bobbylee_]

“He who controls the spice controls the universe.” Baron Vladimir Harkonnen Dune 1984 I always appreciated that line because I thought it made clearer to audience members what Dune was really about. I was wrong. The pillaging of natural resources and infestation of white supremacy has been so heavily cloaked in religion some folks don’t see the obvious. The point Princess Weekes raised about The Northman; about the intention of taking back Viking imagery and culture from white supremest, only for them to still co-opt and appropriate it is a great observation. There are other characters from shows that touch on similar issues, yet these characters (Homelander and Omni-Man) are heroes that are worshipped. I think writers and directors need to be more explicit about their critiques on white saviors, colonialism, white supremacy, call it out and reject it.

[@EricaCalman]

Paul is sadly the 8 millionth instance of a character meant to showcase the tragic pitfalls of power corrupting and yet so many people just think "oh cool, I sure would like all that power"

[@Laeiryn]

You know what film Nazis sure love for its imagery? American History X.

[@katekursive1370]

Matrix and Fight Club: First time?..

[@bm6lgg]

That is only partially true to the current two films. With the onset of Dune 3 adapting Dune: Messiah, the whole gist of Paul (aka the Messiah) will become apparent and clear for the audience.

[@grantwithers]

It was supposed to be a story about heros being bad for your health, not power corrupting. See herbert stating this a thousand times. He literally didn't believe power corrupted, he believed explicitly differently, that power attracts the corruptable.

[@CT_Phipps]

Assholes don't care if they're depicted as assholes.

[@moustik31]

The "w. man burden" being written in the context of colonised India is wild knowing how rampant sexual, physical, etc. violence was. Britain has never sent its "best" sons anywhere.

[@samaraisnt]

no it was written about Philippines specifically; but yes it was later applied to colonized POC.

[@samaraisnt]

applied to *all of us POC i meant to say, can’t edit but yeah kipling sucks.

[@aintnoslice3422]

if you truly believed that, you would decolonize yourself properly: get off the internet, off your phone, out of your home, stop using all the technologies, medicines, amenities of the modern world and go back to living as your ancestors did before colonization. But you wont, because its all a performative talking point. You love colonialism and its legacy when it benefits you materially. People like you have such a simplistic, reductionist understanding of colonialism, if you understand it at all, you don't bother to learn how colonialism happened, how it was perpetuated, how it was administered, the diversity of its experiences, and how or why it ended. "rampant sexual, physical violence was" in Colonial India, as opposed to any other point in its history. You think the experience of colonialism was noble oppressed brown people united in heroically resisting their evil white colonizers. Colonial critiques almost always come from a place of racial insecurity rather than to the actual experience of colonialism (how ironic that most of the most prominent anti-colonial theorists - Said, Fanon, Spivak, themselves or their families, directly benefited from colonialism).

[@malum9478]

maybe the problem is that those WERE their best. they are british after all.

[@aintnoslice3422]

@@malum9478 bigotry's cool when you do it right? always the double standard

[@Suileron]

"Too many white dudes wanna be Paul" is basically the reason Dune: Messiah was written haha. Which clearly didn't work cause those same white men wanna be guy from Fight Club too. Also top tier video 10/10 good stuff

[@nailinthefashion]

The fact that people don’t get that and are cosplaying as him anyway, costume and irl, sadge, omegafail,

[@Turalcar]

There's a very small step from guy from Fight Club to guy from American History X.

[@theaizere]

people don't take literacy seriously enough

[@Painocus]

Iirc Herbert started writing Messiah before he had even finished writing Dune. It wasn't a reaction to people not getting it, he always intended to spell it out.

[@lurkingposter]

There is a guilty pleasure in being the edgy anti hero. Most fans online are comparing him to Anakin Skywalker and Eren Yeager (which implies media literacy). None of these characters are things we should aspire to be but it's fun to pretend.

[@toniroth8703]

“This is the side-chick manifesto.” Killed me 😂

[@sayo5885]

I love how part of this video is GoT season 8 slander in disguise. I never get tired of listening to people explain how bad it is. Literally music to my ears.

[@gallerybygeve3217]

Pls never stop tapping your posters behind you when you’re making a point. It’s iconic

[@ricopena2053]

Chosen one stories come from the divine right of kings. Often, when people complain about the state of the world right now, they believe that the wrong people are in charge. The truth is that hierarchy itself is the problem.

[@goodpeople25]

And that's if we get chosen ones or other parallels. For example whenever people bring up the simpler times of "apolitical" video games I remember that the story of Super Mario Bros is just full on divine right. (also that all the background elements are civilians)

[@Δ-Δ-Δ-Δ]

Couldn't be truer.

[@nailinthefashion]

But how can we progress if people use communism and socialism as insults and demonize free education, shelter, food and transportation? Ion think ppl are strong enough to break centuries of cycles tbh

[@alexdetrojan4534]

There has always been hierarchy...

[@edwardlegend1564]

i think it's an proper anarchist standpoint, valid

[@shzarmai]

We need more Black Scifi and Indigenous Futuristic scifi stories

[@thing_under_the_stairs]

I read that N.K. Jemisin's Broken Earth trilogy is in pre-production for either a series or movies, but I'm not sure where it's at right now. I really hope it happens, and if it happens, I really hope they get it right!

[@apinchofdisappointment]

I’d loveee to read an indeginous mc in sci-fi

[@A_M_Bobb]

YES.

[@nailinthefashion]

Just watched “time traveling while black” by Aishyo the other day and felt sad that artists of color like me don’t get the resources necessary to make said products

[@alexdetrojan4534]

😂

[@socialist-strong]

On the topic of the Fremen being treated as unimportant by the story, we can adapt the Bechdel test (basic test that asks of a movie, ''do two women ever talk about something besides a guy?''). In Dune pt II, 2 fremen never talk to each other about something else than a colonizer. If they aren't talking to a colonizer, they're talking about one. In a movie that happens *on their planet*.

[@moustik31]

Excellent point!

[@malum9478]

this is a good point. we know shockingly little about the fremen despite paul spending months with them learning their culture. we never get to see them just sitting and chatting about some cultural inside joke that paul wouldn't get outside of the time they're making fun of the southerners' beliefs with the "Water of Life". i actually really REALLY appreciate that scene because it does show that the fremen are not a "world of hats" style monolith, but that there's differences in beliefs across regions and even generations. i only wish we could have seen more of that.

[@grmgt]

THANK YOU! That's why i still felt that there was not enough of a subversion since the oppressed barely get to talk. That's why i feel Dune would benefit from being a series (even better if it was animated, but that's another point). It would give us more time with the planet itself and the natives actually taking center in the narrative, making the subversion way more effective.

[@moustik31]

@@grmgt They did that for the new adaptation of Shogun and it has elevated the story big time, to the point where even if I skip the "w. saviour" character's storylines, I still get to enjoy a very good Japanese historical drama! Sidelining the w. dude was a good writing choice!

[@grmgt]

@moustik31 Wow, that sounds awesome. Shogun was on my watch list, but now I'll definitely pick it up. Thanks!

[@HillsAliveYT]

I feel like Villeneuve's change with Chani was super necessary even if it was a bit heavy-handed. Giving her a more distinct POV was a good choice, and recognizing the conflict between Chani loving Paul as a person but also resisting him as a colonialist force AND choosing to GTFO rather than stay with him once she realized where things were going definitely feels like the kind of protagonist lens that pulled an admittedly obvious subtext straight into the text in a way that forces the audience to at least think about whether or not we're seeing a hero or a villain in Paul. And the list of GoT's fuckups when it comes to executing Dany's character arc is obscenely effing long, but I think you make a REALLY REALLY good point about the fact that they sort of portray her more villainous tendencies as something that developed because of the corrupting force of the Dothraki and other Essosi people while portraying her more heroic and "civilized" choices as something that was driven by her more "Westerosi" upbringing. I think GRRM's writing of her character can be criticized for the same issue, but GoT magnified it a LOT by borderline ignoring the fact that the Valyrian culture that Dany holds as supreme over all others is absurdly violent and racist in a way that even the most brutal and elitist cultures of Essos can't compete with.

[@Δ-Δ-Δ-Δ]

The problem with Danna is that in the show, she's praised and painted/marketed as a #girlboss-skinny-queen. But then they realise she's gotta end in a more distasteful place, so all of a sudden, they rush her arc. Not only that, but they allegedly gave Emilia purposefully awful acting directions, not allowing her to emote too much and stuff. The Dothraki in the books are a god-awful copy-paste of the Mongols, too. That's one of my main issues.

[@nailinthefashion]

That’s why House of the Dragon shoulda came first or even been concurrent but no, we can’t have nice things we just have weird rushed projects made for greed, whatever

[@DianaDonineaux]

When we know that Chani is going to finish with Paul , at least that Villeneuve do other majors changes compared to the book , it seems a little pointless that she opposes him .

[@Spongebrain97]

Yeah I gotta say I really like how nuanced Denis Villeneuve was with Dune particularly with Chani and the Fremen. I read the original Dune book and forget some of the details but if Im not mistaken the Fremen are indeed ethnically diverse and have tan skin on average. The 84 Dune film just portrayed them as white people living in the desert with blue eyes but DV chose to again make them ethnically diverse and having tan skin which I think is appropriate. Also yeah I like the agency and proactive decisions that Chani has in Dune Part 2. In the book she doesn't have much character and is just Paul's girlfriend who goes along with everything he does and so I do like that DV made her more nuanced. She recognizes that the religion her people subscribe to was put upon them by colonialism and wants them to liberate themselves and not rely on an outsider. Although she does accept Paul's assistant and embracing of her culture she does call BS on his imperial ambitions which use her people as his tools. So while yeah Dune does have the white savior trope there, at least DV isn't tone deaf and treats the people and story with more nuance

[@nadiapenn8480]

Yes!!! That’s what I’ve been preaching anytime I hear (Zendaya) Chani slander! She is the stand-in personification for the schepticism needed for her people not to be yet again subjugated to further tyrannical rule. For her to be torn between her love for her land and her love of Paul is (what I thought was) a very easy to understand analogy. There is no Messiah there is only an invented construct to more easily persuade and take control of Spice.

[@kimberlyterasaki4843]

I think one of the worst parts for me is that there's still a resistance in literary / academic circles to confront this literary lineage of racism. I took a sci-fi writing class in undergrad where my teacher had us reading these pulp action novels without really analyzing the implications of them. What really sucks is that he was one of the only teachers who focused on speculative fiction at all, meaning I had very few alternative mentors in the subject I wanted to study.

[@alexdetrojan4534]

😅

[@EzaleaGraves]

There is no worse feeling than finding someone who loves something as much as you do for vastly different reasons

[@bethany7904]

i experienced the same thing in my undergrad sci fi writing class! it was actually genre writing across the board, but the teacher didn't care much for sci fi, so the only sci fi session he ran was for pulp fiction and there was just zero critical thinking involved

[@MilesDashing]

I'm sorry to hear that. I teach a course in science fiction, and we try to get our students to notice the colonial thinking implicit in a lot of pulp era SF. Two very well-regarded stories from that era are "A Martian Odyssey" and "The Cold Equations." The latter is all about "the frontier" and how tough it is out here among the colonial planets, i.e. Manifest Destiny in space. The former has to do with an explorer on Mars, which has a very "Darkest Africa" vibe, right down to stealing valuable artifacts from the natives and shooting them when they try to stop you. The idea that humanity can and should colonize other planets and become an interstellar civilization is itself rooted in European colonialism, and divorced from that history, doesn't make a lot of sense.

[@samaraisnt]

those crime fiction novels legit have more slurs in them than MFn Huckleberry Finn. I’m like, YO. That is how a cops think/act but u trying to get me to sympathize and walk a mile in this virulent racist’s “good guy” ain’t working lol.