Why Social Democracy Isn't Good Enough

One of the major stumbling blocks for new lefties is getting stuck in the "why can't we just have social democracy?" phase. On the surface, the Nordic Model looks pretty good - social safety nets, great public services, better workers' rights...so what's the problem? Let's talk about social democracy's critical failure, and why socialism is the better option.
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Why Social Democracy Isn't Good Enough - Second Thought
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Citations and Further Reading:
How capitalism robs the Global South
• How Capitalism Robs th...
• Imperialism Today: Une...
Social Democracy
jacobin.com/20...
• How Rich Countries Rob...
en.wikipedia.o...
• HasanAbi explains how ...
books.google.c...
jacobin.com/20...
jacobin.com/20...
mronline.org/2...
tidewaterdsa.co...
en.wikipedia.o...
jacobin.com/20...
jacobin.com/20...
jacobin.com/20...
jacobin.com/20...
en.wikipedia.o...
H&M
www.renewablem...
www.independen...
www.business-h...
www.reuters.co...
The involuntary/automatic alliance of the state with capitalists
acdc2007.free.f...
Capital strikes
www.dsausa.org...
www.peterfrase....
jacobin.com/20...
François Mitterand and the austerity turn
www.nytimes.co...
www.newstatesm...
jacobin.com/20...
The decline of Swedish social democracy
www.forbes.com...
newleftreview....
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[@SecondThought]

Howdy, friends! I hope you enjoy this week’s video. It’s an important concept to understand. If you like my videos and you’d like to help support the channel, please consider becoming a patron on Patreon! Every patron gets early access to every video, plus access to our patrons-only Discord server! patreon.com/secondthought

[@cypressbutane4575]

'the socialist goal is to transcend capitalism' - I am currently reading up on transcendentalism / American Romanticism (Emerson/Thoreau/) do you think there is any connection to that early American political/ideological spirit to your goals?

[@YouHaveAnApeHead]

You're what I'm using to help my liberal friend break free of the chains placed upon him by Capitalist propaganda. Thank you! Your videos are great.

[@getyourgameon1990]

You have places like Denmark that is not seeing cuts and Democratic Socialism is doing well

[@planets9102]

Your argument about exploitation is really misplaced. All the exploitation problems you outline in social democracies are even worse in pure capitalism. Also profits are at an all-time high so there is definitly the money to pay people more if the companies are actually made to pay ALL their workers more. Social democracy also can respond internationally to capitalist investment. (How many times has facebook threatend to pull out of the EU?) The solution to imperialism is for the third world to work together and form economic blocs. Capitalists can bypass (or coup) one or two countries but above a critical mass accepting the new status quo will be more profitable. Social democracy has created the best living standards in the history of the world. (I know you don't want a totalitarian state but still) Socialist revolutions have, in practice, however colapsed into dictatorships. Chipping away at capitalism seems a way better strategy.

[@blanckgod9642]

If you’re talking about electing a boss of a company then aren’t you more of a syndicalist

[@myronidasvestarossa]

The fact that people in the US even thinks that social democracies are too radical demonstrates we’ve got a lot of deprogrammimg to do.

[@thefutureisnowoldman7653]

Yes anyone that disagrees with us is program it's not that your ideas are unpopular and don't work just rigth wing brainwashing even though the left controls the media

[@khoirulanam9141]

it will only be a disaster, Finns take advantage of their social programs but no one wants to have children, social security finances will swell and worsen the child's economy in the future.

[@khoirulanam9141]

basically humans want to just enjoy it, but don't want to bear the obligation.

[@cowfat8547]

because they are too radical

[@cherylreid2964]

@@khoirulanam9141 humans that are bullies run the World sadly😞

[@zoidburger2830]

I live in Sweden, even here capitalism is about to fuck up standars of livings for low wage workers. During the wage negotiations the social democratic unions agreed to 3-4% wage increase with 10% inflation because Volvo and other lumber companies wanted more profits. The government did nothing

[@SamuraiKage-iv3ow]

@@tombradydid9114 greed is what creates inflation. Good morning when the U.S. Mint printed it's trillion'th trillion I don't get my $10 billion. So please go beyond giving a dead talking point about money printing being the cause of inflation. Enlighten us with your deep understanding of money printing implications on economy.

[@StaticCollapse]

@@tombradydid9114 tf is your profile username lmfao

[@kalle5548]

@RamenBomberDeluxe As a Swede I'd like to share a contrasting view, our social democratic party has kind of stopped following its own ideology and just chased after power with the elected members becoming more and more high class individuals, and a party that is willing to compromise on anything for power, along with a sort of misguided notion that Sweden can fix the world. This has lead to problems being ignored and concessions being made. The system that built probably the best place to live is Social Democracy and until something surpasses it I'll stick to it and help fix the problem caused by politicians chasing power, Cheers

[@CinCee-]

@@tombradydid9114 Suuuurrreeeee 👌🏼

[@jackali5014]

@@kalle5548 That's why I vote V

[@assaries]

As a poor, disabled Swede, I have to say that our state funded safety nets have been very hard to navigate for a while now. And seeing the few existing alternatives be removed one by one these last few years has been really difficult. It's a constant uphill battle, and the hill is just getting steeper. It's beyond me how other countries can look at our system and think it's ideal when so many poor people suffer because of it.

[@georgepresley5120]

It's better than many capitalist countries. In my country there's nothing like social nets for the poor and disabled..they depend on international NGOs and begging in the streets

[@han9488]

everything is relative i think, your experience as a poor disabled person is already one of the worst starting positions you can be in any society, but you might be in more poverty and left without help completely in another country

[@last_samurai6690]

​@han tell them bro. I am from Africa and my wife from South easy Asia. These Europeans are overly spoiled and entitled. I those other cou

[@benjaminhenderson5025]

Better hard to navigate than not being there at all.

[@assaries]

I never claimed to be worse off than people of other nationalities, and if it came off that way, it was not my intention. Growing up where I did undoubtedly provided me with benefits I would not receive elsewhere. I merely wanted to talk about my experience in a social democratic country since that is the topic of the video.

[@IsaVarg]

In a social democracy, even the people we've elected are greedy capitalists who are constantly trying to make themselves richer and screw over the poor. I'm a Norwegian who has several illnesses that keep me from being able to work, and the government does support me a great deal, but every single year the politicians talk about how we need to cut welfare ad nauseam. It's soooo expensive to help people who would be homeless or dead without that help, but politicians living in homes paid for by taxes, getting free transportation, and earning wages exceeding 100k are somehow untouchable. They want lower taxes for the rich that pour more funds into their pockets, and there's never talk of lowering politican wages to something more reasonable, or having their homes not be given to them for free. Every year, I fear what they're going to do that could risk my health and life, because they would rather make poor people's lives a misery than even consider not living in the lap of luxury.

[@VintageVera]

I also have several illnesses and must live on Social Security (which I am very grateful for). In 2023 I got a $100 raise but my rent went up $50 and my food stamps were cut $50 and the cost of living is out of control here in the U.S.

[@anthonydelfino6171]

It may be little comfort to hear, but they're wrong. Here in the US we already know that it's cheaper overall to care for the unwell and house the homeless rather than address the issues that come from these people living on the streets. (It doesn't help that we also incarcerate people for being homeless) But the real thing is, it's cheaper for the ultra wealthy to pass those costs off to the middle and lower classes through both the taxation they have to pay for city public works departments to clean up after then, and police departments to arrest or force them to move. And the ultra wealthy rarely have to deal with it, since typically the homeless don't establish encampments in wealthy neighborhoods. When they talk about it being cheaper to cut social services, it's important to know who they're saying it will be cheaper for.

[@AbuBased731]

Skill issue tbh...

[@wiktorjachyra1869]

Thankfully norway has a super rich sovereign wealth fund for you guys in a relatively small population country

[@coolioso808]

How about this... elected officials should be paid the minimum federal wage. HA! They are public servants right? So, whatever the minimum wage that the country feels is appropriate to 'live on' is what the politicians get. See if they live comfortably on that. Funny how people sometimes don't think until a negative consequence of capitalism affects them directly. Such an absurd economic system capitalism is.

[@johnnibaz6883]

I'm glad you talked about Mitterrand and how he and his government did exactly the opposite of what they promised. Social democracy isn't bad because it's weak against capitalism. It's the worst because it makes people lose faith in the left with all its betrayals. Now in France, like many other places, the working class is massively voting for extreme right parties and we're in a pre-fascist state, and the point of no return draws near.

[@ChiliForEveryone]

this is what I think happened during late 1920s Germany. 1919 Revolution has failed and material conditions got worse and worse. enter an..er....far right party and they took power easily, with the blessings from capitalists and old statesmen ofcorsh

[@raymondhartmeijer9300]

Yes I know what you mean.. it's here in The Netherlands too. I'm with the Socialist Party and we keep trying and trying to explain to people that we are not the same as those centre-progressives that call themselves leftwing.. but we see that our working class too is drawn to these radical rightwing parties that blame the problems on foreigners and shit like that, never critizing capitalism and at the end of the day, those parties ofc will never do anything to improve people's economic position

[@ChiliForEveryone]

Same here. People from my hood actually turned to openly religious form of far right not too dissimilar from what happened during Francoism and is currently happening in the US. We're at the farce phase it seems

[@norakderrote2136]

@@ChiliForEveryone Yep. Im from Germany and far right parties are on the rise again. The biggest left party still loves Russia, so this is a bad option too.

[@stellasternchen]

In Germany in the past there was no right party in the Parliament because of the known history. Since 2017 we have one. Many loose faith in the middle and left parties because they never keep what they promised or find loopholes for the big corporations. There were several scandals from politicians profiting from the pandemic via mask-deals, which should count as bribery. But of course they found a loophole and did not face concequences. Also the social democratic party has it's skelletons in the closet. People notice, and it scares me that they look to the right that claims to solve all problems by sending refugees back to their countries of origin, which makes zero sense.

[@calebbliss8626]

even if it’s not enough a social democracy sounds pretty damn nice comparatively to what it’s like in the US

[@calebbliss8626]

not disagreeing with any statements in this video btw

[@andrewreynolds912]

As an American and new to socialism I do agree even if it's not perfect it's still a massive improvement

[@patpowers9210]

Of course it is. But it won't last, as explained in the video.

[@grmgt]

It's actually kinda of insane if you think about the fact that America already exerts intense imperialism YET still chooses not to improve the quality of their own citizens. It's cruel lol PS: Ofc im not agreeing with this model. Just saying that even within it the USA chooses the worst way.

[@andrewreynolds912]

@@grmgt because my government doesn't care

[@huntermead859]

It's sad that the statement "Capitalism is an absurd economic system" is so controversial

[@erkinalp]

As Sinclair once said: if your life or work requires you to not know about something, then you tend to not know about it.

[@nasis18]

The idea of limitless unfettered growth, is just impossible.

[@boatridecharm]

Capitalist propaganda is stronger than the intelligence of the average person. That's why.

[@muhammaDEsmustafa]

@@nasis18 It's possible and we see it every day, it's called cancerous cells. Keeps growing until it kills its very own host if not removed.

[@Ibeturhot42069]

Years ago I would have considered that a Blasphemous statement. Now I couldn't agree more. Why should I vote for the ones who keep me poor?

[@JoeXJoe]

I LOVED the "general interest science videos." Then you switched to this format, and wow. I learned what love is. This is now 100% my favorite KZbin channel.

[@SecondThought]

You’re too kind 🥰

[@nerdbutgangsta1816]

You'll love his podcast The Deprogram with Hakim and Yugopnik

[@OhioMan1854]

@@SecondThought you're a class act JT. Doing good work on this site. One of the few.

[@nathanfielure4305]

I hope you are subscribed to Hakim as well. Cool bunch of people.

[@grandempressvicky6387]

@@SecondThought You're so intelligent and your voice is great to study to.

[@MikeFrame]

“Good political institutions are those that make it as easy as possible to detect whether a ruler or policy is a mistake, and to remove rulers or policies without violence when they are.” - David Deutsch

[@mantabsekali920]

Aka utopia

[@TheGalaxyWings]

So not marxism-leninism

[@fate8007]

@@TheGalaxyWings when the hell did he advocate for that

[@TheGalaxyWings]

@@fate8007 I'm pretty sure second thought is ml

[@bobbywise2313]

Sometimes removing one backfires. The senators had a great plan to remove the tyrant from power. They knew he must be stopped for the good of the republic. So the plan was laid out and executed without any problems. They killed the tyrant and things were back to normal. So they thought. I guess the people disagreed and a gifted orator changed the course of history forever. This gifted orator seemed to certainly be in control now but not so fast. A strange thing had occured before the death of the tyrant. He named his successor. The gifted orator who was also a great military general would surley crush this kid that was named leader and take his rightful place. But this kid was a little smarter than he thought and had his own great military strategist working with him. He defeated the his enemies and was put in absolute control. The very thing the senators had conspired to stop had taken place. Funny enough had they not murdered the tyrant public opinion could have gone with the senators and the very corrupt elected officials could have stayed in control. The question remains. What was worse between a very corrupt government that existed as a republic with the senators only caring about themselves and their friends or a dictator in control indefinitely but seems to want to help all people in his empire. The dictator is awesome until you get the wrong person in control is my thought. But the grass is always greener on the other side.

[@Cycrum]

In my early stages of being a leftie, I fell into the trap of thinking social democracy was a good compromise, but I realized over time that we shouldn't compromise with capitalists

[@jordanpoole3425]

Capitalism will always be better than communism 🤣 Your brainwashed.

[@joearnold6881]

Right there with you. Social democracy is _already_ too far if a compromise

[@joearnold6881]

@@jordanpoole3425 *you’re. bootlicker

[@RealityHasAWokeBias]

@@jordanpoole3425 Very intelligent analysis from this one.

[@nevreiha]

@@jordanpoole3425 Jordan, my beautiful summer flower, my dearest boy, your profile picture is the actual roundel of the CIA.

[@gutman450]

The funny thing Is that USA is so far to the right that its citizens consider Obama as socialist 😂🤭

[@erkinalp]

yes, out-of-the compass right

[@emmasilver2332]

🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@lukeolson5177]

Words have no meaning to a lot of the citizens of the USA

[@michaeladkins6]

I think Reagan might be considered a Rino, republican in name only.

[@gutman450]

@@dannywindham3295 he Is but for republicans and conservatives he's I don't know... Sankara 😅

[@jespernyman6738]

I am from Finland, by all means a 'social democratic' country and have pretty much always considered myself a social democrat to some degree, since life has been pretty good here in Finland. Recently I've started to question my beliefs, and seeing this video made me realize socialism is necessary if we want to improve the system further and make sure we're going to enjoy all the social safety nets far into the future. You made some great points I had never heard before. Sharing this video right now to all my social democrat friends!

[@UmQasaann]

"Social democracy is just the moderate wing of fascism." - Joseph Stalin, 1924

[@hazminibnusani6819]

@@UmQasaann because social democrats is centre left..

[@UmQasaann]

@@hazminibnusani6819 Social democracy is the “final stop” before full-on fascism. It’s basically a tacit admission by the bourgeoisie that a socialist revolution is drawing near, and they need to appease the workers by whatever means necessary. Social democracy can also exist, feasibly, primarily via imperialism. The reason capitalism is able to provide such a robust welfare state is through the impoverishment and ruin of other countries. As I understand it, it is for these reasons that Stalin (correctly) calls social democracy “objectively the moderate wing of fascism.” A more knowledgeable comrade is welcome to elaborate upon this issue further, of course.

[@fake11end]

@@UmQasaann Nice copypasta. Now fuck right off.

[@coopergates9680]

@@UmQasaann Are social democracy and conservative/bourgeois socialism basically the same thing?

[@Summathescorcher]

For the last few years I've considered myself a soc dem, but I've always been open to more socialist ideals. (I actually find myself agreeing a lot when I watch these vids.) The most frustrating thing to me is seeing every centre-left party in the west shifting to the right. Privatisation is a huge issue to me but nobody seems to want to fix it.

[@2Links]

Maybe ask yourself: What if the only socialist thing we did was redistribute all shares in companies equally among its workers? It might open a door for you.

[@mortimerwake2974]

It's not an accident that they keep shifting right, it's part of their nature. The declining rate of profit means growth is always required, and eventually they will roll back concessions because that is the easiest place left to expand their market.

[@dohlecarnett1866]

I would consider myself similar: SocDem but definitely on the left fringe here, especially when it comes to policies for the economy.

[@TheRogueEmpire]

i feel so sorry for you that you have been brainwashed. i hope you come to your senses before its too late.

[@camaradecarter]

@@TheRogueEmpire what the fuck

[@Svafne]

I'm a Swede and I so wish we were Socialistic. And honestly the politics of the Swedish Social Democrats can't really be considered social democratic anymore, they used to be but nowdays they're a slightly center-left liberal party.

[@Kaardoron]

Amen! They're slipping further and further right every election. I've always been a social democrat by strategic choice (biggest party, best chance of beating the right/alt-right) but I started voting left three or four elections ago when S started pandering to the alt-right voters.

[@jackali5014]

I vote V so...

[@thomaswikstrand8397]

Also Swedish - and I second that. We haven't had a social democracy, or even a social democratic party, for decades. The same neoliberal rot set in here in the 90's as did in Britain.

[@warcanon9546]

I like to think that S jumped off the socialistic train when Soviet was dismantled by enemies from within and there was no longer a mighty bear to the east. YeY "free" markets. V.

[@Kaardoron]

@@jackali5014 same

[@nectanbo]

I considered myself a social democrat prior to watching this video, but you raise some brilliant points and do so without condescension whatsoever. Brilliant content, I clearly have a lot to consider.

[@nectanbo]

@digital dirtbag the fact of the matter is, you can be an intellectual in one region and not one in the other. Unfortunately, while I consider myself well read in areas such as history, philosophy and psychology, my views on politics aren't as well formed. Furthermore, if you read my original comment it says I have things to think about. Not that my is irrevocably changed. This implies the further reading you speak of. Finally, I don't know why books get primacy. Though I love reading, many people find videos are more helpful to them and can summarise concepts in a shorter and more engaging why. Intellectual arrogance isn't cute.

[@yuliusseraph4973]

@ghost mall it's not an opinion, it's a well presented argument. Intellectuals would argue with each other all the time, and books, by the way, are also contain someone's else opinion. Which is, by the way, supposed to be challenged, thought of, not just blindly consumed. Nietzsche challenged Schopenhauer, Marx challenged Hegel, Sartre challenged Camus, Locke challenged Descartes, literally every intellectual in history challenged other intellectual. They may know each other personally and argue via letters, or in person, or they may argue with person long dead, like Kant and Aristotle. Your idealized image of intellectuals as blind consumers of books is wrong.

[@themorethemerrier281]

​@ghost mall He did not even state that he had changed his position on the topic. He just acknowledged the argument. Therefore, I do not understand the point you are trying to make.

[@Joostmhw]

@@ghost_mall how much y'all wanna bet this bozo fkd up and knows exactly how

[@ivoryas1696]

@ghost mall Pro-tip It can be a pretty fast read on mobile to check the transcript. 10 minutes or less.

[@Bigredhound]

Canadian here. Canada USED to be considered somewhat “social democratic” but in my 40 plus years I’ve watched as capitalism has slowly but steadily chipped away at pretty much every aspect of our democracy that was social. Free health care is supposed to be the gem in our crown… Now some places in the so called Great White North are on the verge of an American style health care system and it’s depressing AF. Capitalism infects everything, even the strongest institutions, given enough time. Social democracy is a band-aid solution, a temporary state before true socialism and eventually, a moneyless, classless communist society. Capitalism kills.

[@jupitersolarisdegasosus3623]

Você poderia me dar um link de algum site confiável de notícias para me atualizar sobre a situação do Canadá atualmente ?

[@Texelion3Dprints]

Same in France. And you can thank McKinsey for that. They're all following their guidelines.

[@Amaling]

Idk if we can call social democracy a temporary band-aid, it's had so few decades of relevant existence. But yeah, it's currently looking bad/complacent in most of the west

[@davidpethick83]

Excellent!

[@priestofronaldalt]

A "communist" will never happen. The problem of a perfect society is that those who live in it are imperfect, and thus a perfect system is impossible.

[@ibrahimakhaliloudiop4978]

My major was political science. I poured over tons of textbooks to funnel down to the essence what we really mean by wrapping things up in such concepts as social democracy or socialism. He gives me a lecture which breaks them down very clear cut with a unique sense of humor that makes me sit through the entire episode everytime I come upon his incredible content!

[@WastedContender]

i was studying political science, too. But we never got taught, what the prerequisitions of socialism are. That the means of production are owned by the state, which is run by the working class. I figured out, that real democracy can't be achieved in social democracy, because some people are always more "worth" than others. And everything that comes out of social science is used to control the masses,rather than set them free. and yes, people in wealthy countries always ignore the imperialism that is undertaken in their name.

[@ClassicalTraining]

@ibrahimakhaliloudiop4978 Ah, my friend, it seems that sometimes, we can learn from the most unexpected teachers - and, what a delight it is, when we stumble upon them!

[@thomasjamison2050]

The biggest problem is that as John Steinbeck once pointed out, "socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.

[@BenBangw]

And the link of Capitalism to democtracy and freedom, even though these two ideas are pretty much on the contrary😂

[@miyu2242]

im from Sweden and can confirm that capitalism has fucked us up since around 2016. my dad was never paid properly whilst being the only reason that the company he worked for was still alive. our current government is a joke too, our PM refuses to do anything for us in this energy crisis we´re currently experiencing and only focuses on capital while no one (especially the region i live in) is able to afford taxes, groceries etc whilst companies refuse to higher our wages.

[@moshmosh4129]

as someone who isn't from Sweden nor lives there, there is very limited news that we receive mostly about what exactly is going on in Nordic Countries. So would you mind if I ask you some questions about it?

[@johndefalque5061]

I hate charities and we have thousands in Canada, most religious based, not ideal for atheists, everything from pet food to diapers. Itès difficult to navigate, food banks give away stale food. I prefer everyone getting topped up with a Universal Basic Income. I am autistic and should have been left to die at birth. Failing that at age 18, I should have been given a cyanide capsule.

[@B727X]

I heard for the first time in a while Sweden has a decent leader.

[@KarlSnarks]

In the Netherlands our decline in socdem institutions and policies began in the 90's, but really sped up in the early 2010's. Crumbling healthcare, stagnating wages, housing crisis etc.

[@johndefalque5061]

@@KarlSnarks Too bad, I hear Sweden has gone down the same road of more billionaires and more homeless. The world is doomed!

[@Justgaming725]

I live in Sweden and a long time viewer off second thougt, and i have to say this guy did an Incredible explonation about how my country works (:

[@shushunk00]

this term is used a lot and I think it's mostly misused,it's just sort of like an easy short-form term but at the end of the day most of us are heavily misusing ,we essentially use it as sort of like a synonym for just a welfare state but ,that's not really what social democracy is now historically social democracy was considered to be a lot more radical than it actually is today it was essentially using the state apparatus to us to like completely favor the workers obviously, that's not the case today at no one would ever say that social democracy is explicitly using the state to favor the working class over others that's just you know not really what it is at all so I just want to talk about the actual characteristics of social democracy today because usually if we see like some welfare programs you know so like public health care or something we're like oh there must be a social democracy but that's not really the case for example, look at Cuba would you call Cuba a social democracy it has a Public Health Care ,it has welfare programs all the all that sort of stuff but, it lacks a lot of the fundamentals of what makes a social democracy a social democracy because at the core of what we understand what sort of social democracy is today it's not those things at all really you could have a so-called "social democracy" without any of those things perhaps depending on whether the state thinks it can get away with not giving you them because at the core of these so-called social democracy is much more the states at the behest of the bourgeoisie turning itself into sort of this illusory mediator between the working class and the owning class which is called corporatism yeah most of the so-called modern social democracies have a whole lot in common with Mussolini just to let you know so the state sets up this sort of regulatory apparatus which is made to look like you know that they're giving workers seats at the table with the capitalists and giving everyone a fair shake so they say okay we're gonna have some unions these are the unions that you're allowed to have this is when you're allowed to strike any other strike is illegal if you have any problems at the workplace or with your pay or whatever your only option is to join this Union and then go to the bargaining table and negotiate with the representatives of the owners, anything else is illegal you're only allowed to strike if negotiations break down stuff like that is really the fundamental of social democracy this illusory fake the notion of class compromise which obviously isn't really class compromise is it because at the end of the day what's at stake for the owners of capital is a little bit of lost profit what's the stake for the worker is losing their whole livelihood so the worker years in this case where they're forced the bargaining table forced to have like you know like nice discussions with the bosses they're gonna lose out every single time even in the cases where it seems like they might have won it's really not a win at all like you know you go to the bargaining table with your boss you get like a two dollar an hour pay rise that's not really nothing has fundamentally changed there you know the relation between capital and the worker Remains the exact same as it was before you're still working to make money for them and anything that they end up giving you is always going to be something that they were prepared to give you because at the end of the day they're the ones who are fundamentally in control of the state they're the ones who set up this system in the first place in order to final sort of revolutionary energy into something else in order to give you just enough of the scraps so that you don't do anything that actually really threatens them and one thing that I haven't really touched on here is that obviously you know when Union participation is so heavily limited by the state these unions uh effectively just captured by the state the state which is operating at the behest of the capitalists so not only a work is obviously operating at a massive disadvantage in the first place but their unions aren't even theirs so it's all one big con it's called class compromise but at the end of the day one site has all the power and and the complete control of the state apparatus and it's all about making it seem like you're getting your fair share when you're really getting not even remotely close to what your fair share would be and that last phrase there that's really the Crux of social democracy it's not have some welfare payments you know go to the public hospital it's fine it's the capitalist trying to keep you placated with as little as they possibly can to make sure you don't do anything that actually threatens them and anyone who explicitly identifies as a Social Democrat that's what they're identifying as not a true belief in the system because no one truly believes in social democracy not even the people who set it up truly believe in it not even this social Democrats themselves truly believing it for them it's a means to an end it's a means to keep you going to work going home and then going to work the next day ad nauseam without causing any trouble because without these corporatist mechanisms in place to sort to mislead you and other workers and make you think that you're getting your fair share that everything's all well and good that you're well and truly the beneficiary of a compromise you won't realize that you could really get a a whole lot more if you and your buddies operated outside of the bounds of their system so yeah social democracy is not welfare programs it's not Public Services, Social Democrats would give you none of that if they thought they could get away with it, social democracy is fundamentally about discouraging working-class militancy by throwing them some scraps and putting up a facade of like a reasonable compromise and even that is of course in the first world all based on the exploitation of the third world, first worlders get their scraps from imperialism and unfortunately most workers in the first world fall for the misused understanding of the term pretty easily without understanding the above-mentioned stuff

[@Parker402]

I think the difficult part about this conversation is the fact that it would seemingly have to take a miracle to even reach Social Democracy in the U.S in our lifetimes so it is hard to push for further advancement beyond that when progress is so slow

[@mrdeanvincent]

Maybe we'll hit the limits to growth sooner rather than later, as many predict, and it will force a radical readjustment. We simply can't keep up this rate of extracting resources, destroying biodiversity, depleting soils and poisoning waterways. We *will* hit hard limits if we continue following the capitalist model. The question is when.

[@Parker402]

@@mrdeanvincent Yeah I agree we will hit our limits in terms of depleting resources, destroying the environment, etc. but I fear the radical readjustment will end up just accomodating the wealthy and powerful and only they will surivive the catastrophic new world that is created

[@michaelsalmon9832]

They are two different goals with two different requirements, one isn’t just the even further down the line version of the other. People don’t like social democratic reforms and they don’t even consider social revolution an option. The trick is to make it an option for people

[@mrdeanvincent]

@@michaelsalmon9832 People generally love social democratic reform (when it's described to them without the use of politicised labels), because it literally means a better quality of life for the majority of people. The problem is what essentially amounts to brainwashing (the illusion of democracy in politics, trillions of dollars of corporate advertising, etc).

[@michaelsalmon9832]

@@mrdeanvincent lol ok so if it’s so popular then why don’t they vote for it What you’re saying is basically “oh well they’re too stupid to know what’s good for them” Well what if they aren’t? It’s not “brainwashing”. Such a thing does not exist. People have interests and their politics will always reflect their interests. Working people as a class have stopped having a collective interest as a class, anything close to what they used to have. Working class class consciousness has been reduced to the individual, where their class status becomes only a temporary state or an individual concern. There’s been a “middle class-indication” of the whole of politics since the death of the communist dream, where the bourgeois empty version of “individualism” - capitalist, liberal individualism - has dominated all politics on both sides. What you’re defending - social democratic politics - once competed with communists for the votes of working class people who voted for them overwhelmingly. Today, the social democrats get the votes of only one group overwhelmingly: the college educated middle class, the professional class. The working class as a class does not vote. The majority of working class individuals do not vote period. The rest have been conditioned into the middle class mindset, of progressive social reform or conservative classically liberal reform, whose champions are the other side of the middle class, the petite bourgeoisie. The college educated professional class is not the majority of the population. So no, their politics is not popular. This is what causes “pasokification”. Not “brainwashing”.

[@benlittleforest]

Last semester I took a class called, very generally, "Global Issues" and in it we discussed the H&M phenomenon you mention, the professor called it externalizing issues. It's also what happens when you replace combustion cars with electric cars, because they still create a lot of pollution and suffering, but inside a city, the smog is reduced.

[@logans3365]

People need to realize that the counties barely matter, in every single country you will find the same battle between the owner and the worker class. The only way to truly be free from the jaws of capitalism is to unite on a global scale and build a new world we’re everyone develops at an equal pace.

[@georgepresley5120]

Exactly..and the US should take the lead. They have put lots of effort in undermining leftist governments all over the world for ages

[@gymrat5014]

Lol, good luck with that ! The problem with socialists is that while you undoubtadly have a great fantasy, anyone would love to fall for, you want to apply it by force and by government boots, instead of agreements. You talk a lot about democracy but only in a way that would strenghten the government and weaken the people, as capitalists as much as you hate them, are still people with no direct political power, and while some of them are mean mf, the repurcussions on people are nowhere near being as extreme as mean politicians with unchecked power, and lot of times that power check is capital.

[@ddias85]

Fully agree. And this is where socialism becomes impractical in our lifetime. For that you would need something that would really break our differences... but unfortunately in a very grim scenario where a vast majority of the world population would be wiped out or at the risk of the same. But even before you get to that stage you would have to go through a survival of the fittest stage, of which i would reckon none of us in this forum would outlast. Therefore, any realistic solution will have to go through a model that does not really in a global collaboration of.everyone in the world

[@coolioso808]

Well said! I completely agree. Your analysis is top notch! It isn't this country vs that country. It is Decent Humans vs Capitalism with a few Capitalists trying to hang on and avoid change. Anybody interested in change and knowing the truth, I highly recommend checking out folks like Peter Joseph (his New Human Rights Movement book and related film Interreflections) or comedians like Lee Camp and journalists like Abby Martin. There are more, but they are truth tellers and we need that solidarity and honesty that can be generated from gaining more knowledge and class consciousness. We can go monetary-market capitalism, step by step to a moneyless, resource based economy with no labor-for-income or debt. Not easy. Would never say it is easy, but it is viable, it is possible and it is going to be a necessary fight. The alternative of allowing the status quo to just take its course is not pretty.

[@B727X]

Delusional and scary. Most of us will bite the bullet before submitting to your totalitarian one world government hell hole. Lmao thanks for advocating for pol pot but worldwide dikhad

[@barada6820]

While I'm not a socialist, I'd like to thank you for making these videos. They do make me think deeper about my own views.

[@georgepresley5120]

@@kylezo I support socialism 100% but I live in a country where people have a mindset that associates socialism with poverty. Even a politician who is a social democrat can never be given chance anywhere. We blindly follow US policies

[@coolioso808]

@@derritter9137 Yeah, good point. Most people have been so heavily propagandized on capitalism and anti-communism or socialism that they hardly have any of the facts, the figures and a rational argument other than what they've been conditioned to believe. I don't blame them too much because most people are busy, stressed and in debt or worried about debt so they tend to focus on money, because they kind of have to. That's part of the challenge is relating to people with their current struggles and trying to show them how viable alternatives to this capitalist system would be much better, freer and healthier for them and others. It's like my co-worker with four kids, working a full-time professional job but still working shifts at a restaurant 2 or 3 nights a week. He doesn't want to do the extra work, but feels he must so he can keep the family supported. Sure, he might be able to accept the BS of a debt-based, slave-like capitalist system that isn't really very free at all, but then what would he do about it? That's the thing. If people accept that capitalism is unsustainable, then the question is what do we do? The answer isn't immediate. It's build critical mass of people who can stand up, general strike or something like that to stop the capitalist train in its tracks and demand human rights policies that help us transition towards a better system and DO NOT let up until those human rights demands are met, while openly calling out capitalism as structurally violent, unjust, unhealthy and unsustainable. That's basically the way out of this, but also why it doesn't help most people who are struggling. So maybe they can take the time to watch Zeitgeist: Moving Forward and at least get a sense of the problem and the possible solutions. Maybe they can watch these shorter videos on YT like on this channel and get a scoop then build to their knowledge-base and stay ready. Anyway, anyhow, we are going to try and make changes because, as Jacque Fresco said, "this sh*ts got to go!"

[@milopt.352]

I must ask, after all of this, what is stopping you from supporting socialist ideals? I, too, wish to think deeper about my views, but every capitalist perspective I've come across so far seems to count on short-sightedness on the failures of capitalism. I'd love to hear your pov.

[@chrisswan1170]

Give it time, comrade ☭

[@ilmarikorpela8123]

Well what're your political views then? I've never met someone who knows what socialism is and still is against it... I guess that's on the algorythms

[@DonDeering]

Since your transformation to a socialist channel, and your growth in this realm, you have created a top-notch channel with brilliant programming. Thank you! While explaining capital flight, at approximately 9:35, I think the scale is off. Where you say, "where...one person can screw over hundreds," I think the "hundreds" should be *millions.*

[@denelson83]

Or rather *billions.*

[@DonDeering]

@@denelson83 Yes, that's true.

[@ziziroberts8041]

A country, or even 2.

[@coolioso808]

Think about it in the world context, too. How many billionaires are there in the world? Around 2,600 (and growing). That's such a tiny number of people it would be a pathetic turn out to a minor league sports game, yet those 2,600 people have ENORMOUS, undemocratic power and influence over the lives of billions of people. Absurd! Why we let this go on for so long, I don't know exactly. But we better get serious, unite the many, many people who don't want this crappy capitalist system and demand change, demand dignity and know that poverty and slavery are NOT necessary and simply not acceptable anymore. Every second they still exist is a shame on capitalism, shame on the billionaires (even though they don't have the empathy to care) and more evidence that we need system change. We could go capitalist, to socialist, using a something like a Global UBI to ensure all needs are met as a human right, then follow the steps towards a resource based economy which is debt-free, labo-for-income free and renders politics, poverty, war and money obsolete through scientific process of localizing, automating and networking sharing access of our technology and cooperative abilities.

[@austinpage9463]

Hey man, don’t ever stop uploading! Your videos have converted me from a hardcore capitalist into a socialist. You’re doing a great job spreading the word about socialism.

[@thelordgamer8707]

you might want to pick up a history book before you act so sure.

[@QuestionsIAskMyself]

@@thelordgamer8707you should read some Michael Parenti

[@adamcorfman573]

@@thelordgamer8707 Your toothbrush is OURS!

[@Parallax-ec4ik]

@@adamcorfman573 Your*

[@adamcorfman573]

@@Parallax-ec4ik 👀

[@sandyqbg]

Thank you for introducing me to the term "capital strike". With that label in place, suddenly everything around the misleading conversations on the morality of labour strikes falls into place. The underlying concept is something I've intuitively felt but haven't been able to get a grasp on. Now, with the right term to encapsulate it, everything clicks into place. Words are indeed powerful

[@theonelad3028]

Capitalist leaders own the media. Shit look at the current nursing strike I'm NY the way the media looks at that situation Is disgusting especially when you look at what the nurses have had to deal with

[@sandyqbg]

@@theonelad3028 I've seen how media portrays any strike - and it's very clear that the workers are being given the raw deal in the media treatment. It's just that I've not had the words to articulate the problem as well

[@theonelad3028]

@@sandyqbg even in countries such as nz where I live which would be counted as pretty great by many the teachers and nurses that recently went on strike and even the uni lecturers got absolutely chewed out by media. The nurses just wanted increased staff numbers cause many were working 80 hour weeks. The teachers wanted better pay and rations because upwards of 40 plus kids per class and a low wage is shit and the uni lecturers are brilliant here in nz but get walked over by the university administration like they are nothing. The media said all 3 were selfish and only looking out for themselves rather than others when all 3 just wanted to create better and safer situations for students and patients.

[@Bobylein1337]

@@theonelad3028 the vast majority of media is shit in most capitalistic countries, if there is anything going bad for "the capital", even magazines that are called "socialists" by conservatives tend to be shit in those cases, it's really about framing and the overton window. Holy shit, the media on climate protests is also so fuckin bad here, they just took what right wing politicians said and called people who glue themselves to the road to a terrorist group who killed quite a few people in the seventees. it's wild. I guess the "public broadcast" is the most symptathic to them out of the big media outlets

[@Simo-hw1pl]

@@theonelad3028 About the same situation in Finland.

[@mythicdw7826]

Well, I learned something new today! 😲👀 I didn't know that there was such an important difference between socialism and a social democracy. Thank you so much for this educational video! 🙂💕

[@anthonydelfino6171]

I didn't either, it's good he started with that distinction at the begining about how so many words and phrases don't mean what they should mean on paper. I used social democracy to mean socialist economic model, democratic governmental establishment.

[@zukes6517]

It’s nice to see comments like this :)

[@c.a.m1387]

That's democratic socialism, which is ironically different from social democracy

[@djglockmane]

amazing to see comments like these tbh blessed post

[@olivers.7821]

​@@anthonydelfino6171 democratic socialism would be the term for your "socialist economic model, democratic governmental establishment"

[@Dummigame]

Social Democracy described in a few words: equality for all! _*terms and conditions may apply._

[@adamcorfman573]

"For a limited time only!"

[@TheRealAbraxas]

If you think the dissolving of private ownership is good you are a moron that knows nothing about economics. Socialism will unintentionally kill us all.

[@thebestben]

This is such an important topic for the left. Social Democracy should not be the goal, only a stepping stone on the path to socialism.

[@blue_wolfproductions12]

Exactly

[@austinhernandez2716]

At the same time, we need make a distinction. That is the end goal for some people. And here the Republicans are actually right then, some do want socialism. I'm honest about it, but it seems that many socialists try to hide their end goal to gain more supporters. But that will make you look untrustworthy and less likely to get support IMO.

[@blockwithaglock96]

One thing i always say is let's work to making things betterfor everyone and you'll see that eventually we'll get to socialism

[@nobodygrognak3087]

watch the video first, its not

[@nevreiha]

@@nobodygrognak3087 yeah, it's just capitalism lite and reverts to capitalism regular as a result of that, if the distribution of wealth is that of a bourgeois society it will not change unless the wealth is forcibly taken back by the workers who create the wealth

[@ZachariahJ]

Towards the start of the video, I nearly jumped up and commented that Scandinavia, and especially Sweden, have been moving Rightwards for a while now. I'm glad I didn't because you addressed that point specifically later on! It's a great video, and enlightening. I'm slightly conflicted though - I always used to think 'capitalism for toys, and socialism for essentials'. And for places with a good public transport option, I include cars when I say 'toys'. Plus, I ran a small print company for 30 years, which didn't make me wealthy, but kept me free from the worst that capitalism can do to people. I don't know how I'd have fitted in to a fully socialist economy. (One reason I'm not wealthy is that I paid anyone that worked for me very well, irrespective of skill level. My friends thought I was crazy, but I'd had so many shitty jobs when I was young, I was determined to be the boss I'd have wanted to have when things were different. I'm retired now, and I have no regrets. Well, at least on that specific point! 🙂)

[@EmmaWithoutOrgans]

socialism doesn’t mean centrally planned party-controlled production, cooperative business is still valid. if you have a family restaurant it’s not gonna become a state-enterprise

[@jacksonmagas9698]

Markets are good for distributing non-essential goods, but you can have markets for those types of goods without having privately owned capital producing those goods.

[@ZachariahJ]

@@daniellarson3068 My conscience is clear on that, if not on other things. ;-) I also charged very low prices to my customers, which were usually schools and charities, and bands starting out (we printed merch t-shirts). I actively avoided commercial customers, because they weren't so pleasant to deal with, and they were much slower at paying their bills. I got kicked out of school at 15 (they couldn't do it now - I think 18 is the limit here in the UK), and became what they call nowadays a NEET (no education, employment or training), so I really saw the crappy side of employment while I was younger. Though wages were much higher then, and rent was much lower, so things are a great deal worse now. I really feel for young people - I had it pretty easy growing up in the 1970s. And Brexit has made things so much worse in the UK - young folk can't just nip across the Channel and find a decent job like they used to. I don't get those bosses who treat their employees like shit either. I paid well, and people stuck with me - they were loyal, and I appreciated it - It was a happy place to work (usually - but deadlines could make us all a bit tense, and I'd get aggravated!).

[@ZachariahJ]

@@jacksonmagas9698 You mean stocks and shares and all that stuff? Yes, I agree. Those casinos piss me off. I should clarify - my company was just me, and my admin assistant, and her little dog! (at least for the final few years). It was a 'company' for administrative reasons, not because there were any stocks and shares or investors involved. When you pass a certain turnover in the UK, you have to start paying VAT (sales tax), and the paperwork is a whole lot easier when you are dealing with the Tax Department as a company. TBH, I don't know anything about any of that finance stuff - it just seems they pocket the cash when things are good, and pass the bills to the taxpayer when things go wrong. It's all crooked.

[@meismehaha]

The problem is businesses like yours just cannot scale, when in competition with the capitalist market. Even with a few "good" small business owners, they die or sell out eventually. And I bet you couldn't have started that business today! In a socialist system, if you had been good to your employees as you say then they'd probably have elected you to be the "lead" or whatever in the workplace. Assuming that work is what you wanted to continue doing.

[@kongspeaks4778]

The amount of kindness and patience I sense in all your videos is incredible, comrade

[@jerryjones7293]

When you have greedy selfish people, you get greedy selfish politicians. ~ George Carlin

[@stugeh]

As someone from a nordic country i thank you for making this video and enabling me to have fewer repetitive and infuriating conversations.

[@radioguy8662]

Well done video. Many conservatives are concerned about the high number of young people that say they support Socialism in polls. But the truth is that they simply support Social Democracies. I teach a class on Political Economy and will use this video to highlight the differences between Socialism and Social Democracies.

[@phoenixshade001]

Holy shit. I always thought the Nordic model was great, but i never made the connection that the exploitation was still there, just shifted to more vulnerable societies. Great vid.

[@Teilnehmer]

In Germany this problem of shifting exploitation is called Nachunternehmerhaftung and somewhat being adressed in the current administration - the idea is that the main company is legally responsible for breaches of contract of each company they employ in vulnerable societies. However, without actually haven't checked the detailed legal structures for this new law, I somehow doubt that it is actually a hindrance for the interests of capital. It has just become a bit more tedious legally to exploit workers but I don't think it makes it impossible.

[@grischa762]

@@Teilnehmer that law is hardly worth the paper it was written on. The company is only liable if the workers are employed by the company or a company that is directly affiliated. If for example the company wants to exploit workers with no consequences all they have to do is order the production of their goods from a local 3rd party manufacturer. And this was already the case be4 the law. The law is calles "Supply chain law" but it relly is just applies to the first link of the chain.

[@B727X]

It’s a lie

[@IsomerSoma]

Now wait and see how exploitive socialists states were in how the forced collectivized work has killed millions of people in the process.

[@dmike3507]

Yep. Even in Nordic countries, their governments have routinely supported austerity policies after the 2008 recession despite massive opposition from their populations. They have continued to privatize many successful government services, unionization rates are slowly declining, and overall are mostly becoming more unequal & unstable over time. A social democratic system still functions with the same perverted incentives as a fully capitalist system, just with a cushion... but people have to fight like hell to keep that cushion there. Let workers own & run the economy themselves and that fight doesn't ever need to occur.

[@gabrielluck5951]

Second Thought é uma das melhores coisas que já encontrei. É raro ver um criador de conteúdo tão categórico e ainda tão acessível. Absolutamente indispensável nesse tempo.

[@brenocristiano]

Surpresa encontrar outro brasileiro por aqui.

[@geroffmilan3328]

💯

[@nandohenriques2975]

Imagina só, collab entre Second Thought e Ian Neves

[@AlOlexy]

Solidariedade com os meus camaradas do Brasil. Não está fácil agora…

[@gabrielluck5951]

@@AlOlexy É reconfortante ler isso. O permeio do fascismo na sociedade civil e nas instituições brasileiras é bastante avançado. O neoliberalismo corroeu qualquer esperança de desenvolvimento soberano nesse país e a frustração social que isso gera permite criminosos como Bolsonaro conduzir um país.

[@CampingforCool41]

It might not be enough but in the US even social democracy feels like a pipe dream

[@mikem1917]

Depends on the youth vote. Bernie came close and all his policies are popular

[@adamcorfman573]

It would most likely be FDR 2.0, and then after 30 years more or less, the policies and legislative infrastructure would just degrade to the point of what we currently have and or worse just like what happened with FDR.

[@blacklyfe5543]

You feel like a pipe dream.

[@MD0K]

Saw this on Nebula, and waited for it to get here just to comment that Kraut, Adamsomething, and all the European political/urbanists creators should watch this video. They have this fukuyamaesque end of history but the peak of human achievement being European Social Democracy instead of American brand capitalism. They love owning american institutions and lack of trains, etc. but forget that all their welfare and walkable cities are the result of past worker struggle and/or imperialism exporting misery abroad. Damn great video

[@Joostmhw]

This, it's super annoying to hear otherwise great channels spout such dribble

[@GTAVictor9128]

Indeed. I commented on one of Adam's posts about the failed coup attempt in Germany that "According to Marxist analysis, fascism is capitalism in decay", and the first reply I got is: "You're insane", followed by "People like you is why I'm embarrassed for the left". It was at that point that it occurred to me that his channel mainly attracted moderate leftists that do not support full-blown socialism.

[@ziadbaha1699]

@@GTAVictor9128 something funny that happen last time was on one of his posts, where he told people to vote for a more "left leaning" candiate/election(I don't keep up with American politics). And the replies where filled with conservatives saying: "I like your channel but this ain't" and he replied back with "just because I don't use the words leftist or progressive doesn't mean I'm not left leaning. It was really funny situation really

[@ziadbaha1699]

Kraut is scum, not even comparable to adam something

[@toppler8164]

I love Adam "Nuclear War wouldn't be that bad" Something. Truly one of the political content creators of all time.

[@marcys5909]

Hi second thought, Im watching you since the 2023 started and I must say I have already learned so much about socialism and our current capitalistic system. Now Im more open minded about socialism than ever. Thank you!

[@petertaylor2197]

There is one problem with socialism. It doesn't work. If your like it go to one of the 3 countries that have it. Venezuala, Cuba and North Korea.

[@ubongjoshua7186]

As A Nigerian, living in a 3rd world country, in what way do you think I could help in this deprogramming process...

[@DarkArcticTV]

Ask Nigerian communists, not liberals from America

[@Dlya.lyubvi]

in 3rd world countries i think Lenninism is better than most, to get to the Solution I dont know how to explain it well so sorry. But if you want you can do research on it

[@sunflowersamurai10]

Im a nigerian in diaspora so maybe my word isnt the best 😅, but to my current understanding, id say that you'd have to overcome a lot of tribalism first and try to instill nationalist mindset? Also use african marxist perspectives like nkrumah instead of just marx and lenin. You'd probably have to appeal to christianity and islam and reconcile those faiths with socialist/marxist ideas otherwise no one is going to listen. For me at least what drew me to anti capitalist perspective was my anger towards western imperialism, so playing that angle might help as well. I'm still learning tbh but id love to hear a more materialstic approach instead of internet ramblings. Undortunately i dont think there are any major communist movements in 9ja for now...

[@tuff9486]

@@sunflowersamurai10 you should atrive for Nigerian imperialism, not fall for the commu ist lie or your nation will be even poorer and exploited. Worst case scenario you flee into eastern imperialism

[@mayhemamigos4766]

@@Dlya.lyubvi I would argue that syndicalism would also work, however it would be a challenge without reaching post-scarcity.

[@AStonedLemon]

As a socialist politican, the reason we are generally pushing for social democracy as opposed to full socialism is because of just how hard it is to sell to the public as is. Once the centre moves left enough due to the sucess of social democrats, then we can look at replacing capitalism proper.

[@Skyace13]

The difficulty with this is while social democracy has its concessions from capitalists people will see no reason to get more “extreme” and move toward full socialism. You’re actually asking more from the public to change twice instead of once. I obviously understand being a politician has its own sets of difficulties

[@AStonedLemon]

@@Skyace13 Yeah I get what you're saying but short of a revolution I just don't see any other way personally. I also think that when politicians who are genuine end up in the situations like those described in the video, they need to be willing to speak about it and not just act like they've got it under control. But maybe I'm wrong, I definitely hope so anyway!

[@Joaking91]

Where is socialist europe then?

[@emmasilver2332]

@@AStonedLemon maybe a revolution is what we need

[@yeoldpubman]

Lenin said a lot of good shit about electoral politics, and everyone in this thread (including me) needs to read it and internalize it.

[@behr121002]

Excellent coverage and clarity of definition between the two systems/approaches/ideologies. _Second Thought_ is a gem and I always look forward to new installments and analyses.

[@austinhernandez2716]

While I agree, social democracy is heaven compared to what we got in the US right now. So I'll take it any day.

[@alejandroarizpe3226]

As long as you don't think social democracy is the end goal, sure. In any case, it should be a mere brief stepping stone.

[@shushunk00]

this term is used a lot and I think it's mostly misused,it's just sort of like an easy short-form term but at the end of the day most of us are heavily misusing ,we essentially use it as sort of like a synonym for just a welfare state but ,that's not really what social democracy is now historically social democracy was considered to be a lot more radical than it actually is today it was essentially using the state apparatus to us to like completely favor the workers obviously, that's not the case today at no one would ever say that social democracy is explicitly using the state to favor the working class over others that's just you know not really what it is at all so I just want to talk about the actual characteristics of social democracy today because usually if we see like some welfare programs you know so like public health care or something we're like oh there must be a social democracy but that's not really the case for example, look at Cuba would you call Cuba a social democracy it has a Public Health Care ,it has welfare programs all the all that sort of stuff but, it lacks a lot of the fundamentals of what makes a social democracy a social democracy because at the core of what we understand what sort of social democracy is today it's not those things at all really you could have a so-called "social democracy" without any of those things perhaps depending on whether the state thinks it can get away with not giving you them because at the core of these so-called social democracy is much more the states at the behest of the bourgeoisie turning itself into sort of this illusory mediator between the working class and the owning class which is called corporatism yeah most of the so-called modern social democracies have a whole lot in common with Mussolini just to let you know so the state sets up this sort of regulatory apparatus which is made to look like you know that they're giving workers seats at the table with the capitalists and giving everyone a fair shake so they say okay we're gonna have some unions these are the unions that you're allowed to have this is when you're allowed to strike any other strike is illegal if you have any problems at the workplace or with your pay or whatever your only option is to join this Union and then go to the bargaining table and negotiate with the representatives of the owners, anything else is illegal you're only allowed to strike if negotiations break down stuff like that is really the fundamental of social democracy this illusory fake the notion of class compromise which obviously isn't really class compromise is it because at the end of the day what's at stake for the owners of capital is a little bit of lost profit what's the stake for the worker is losing their whole livelihood so the worker years in this case where they're forced the bargaining table forced to have like you know like nice discussions with the bosses they're gonna lose out every single time even in the cases where it seems like they might have won it's really not a win at all like you know you go to the bargaining table with your boss you get like a two dollar an hour pay rise that's not really nothing has fundamentally changed there you know the relation between capital and the worker Remains the exact same as it was before you're still working to make money for them and anything that they end up giving you is always going to be something that they were prepared to give you because at the end of the day they're the ones who are fundamentally in control of the state they're the ones who set up this system in the first place in order to final sort of revolutionary energy into something else in order to give you just enough of the scraps so that you don't do anything that actually really threatens them and one thing that I haven't really touched on here is that obviously you know when Union participation is so heavily limited by the state these unions uh effectively just captured by the state the state which is operating at the behest of the capitalists so not only a work is obviously operating at a massive disadvantage in the first place but their unions aren't even theirs so it's all one big con it's called class compromise but at the end of the day one site has all the power and and the complete control of the state apparatus and it's all about making it seem like you're getting your fair share when you're really getting not even remotely close to what your fair share would be and that last phrase there that's really the Crux of social democracy it's not have some welfare payments you know go to the public hospital it's fine it's the capitalist trying to keep you placated with as little as they possibly can to make sure you don't do anything that actually threatens them and anyone who explicitly identifies as a Social Democrat that's what they're identifying as not a true belief in the system because no one truly believes in social democracy not even the people who set it up truly believe in it not even this social Democrats themselves truly believing it for them it's a means to an end it's a means to keep you going to work going home and then going to work the next day ad nauseam without causing any trouble because without these corporatist mechanisms in place to sort to mislead you and other workers and make you think that you're getting your fair share that everything's all well and good that you're well and truly the beneficiary of a compromise you won't realize that you could really get a a whole lot more if you and your buddies operated outside of the bounds of their system so yeah social democracy is not welfare programs it's not Public Services, Social Democrats would give you none of that if they thought they could get away with it, social democracy is fundamentally about discouraging working-class militancy by throwing them some scraps and putting up a facade of like a reasonable compromise and even that is of course in the first world all based on the exploitation of the third world, first worlders get their scraps from imperialism and unfortunately most workers in the first world fall for the misused understanding of the term pretty easily without understanding the above-mentioned stuff.

[@thomaswikstrand8397]

The issue (coming from a Swedish person old enough to have seen social democracy collapse utterly) is that you won't KEEP it for very long. Wealth and power will keep concentrating at the top and once the balance is far enough out of whack, they'll reclaim their power. Took some odd 4 decades for us. I would wager your social democracy would last for a substantially shorter time.

[@icebox1954]

@@alejandroarizpe3226 Social democracy has proven itself to work, socialism has proven the opposite so far. When living standards go up, some of the lowest wealth inequality, safety net for both illness and professional pursuits, people tend not to want a radical change because it's good enough as it is. It comes at the cost of exploiting others for our wealth but for the citizens themselves it's pretty good. The exploitation I believe is a problem that can be solved within social democracy as a system, at least when it comes to foreign exploitation. That some workers are paid more is simply due to them being more important than others. I don't inherently think people should all earn the same or that everyone should live well if they haven't put in an effort to contribute to society.

[@austinhernandez2716]

@@thomaswikstrand8397 You're correct. The US had some what of a SD in the 1950s. And Ronald Reagan easily dismantled it.

[@Asrahn]

Sweden is a cautionary tale of Social Democracy and its inherent issues, the main one being that capitalism, even when "regulated", will seek to break itself free and ultimately subsume the state to its own ends - and that it will always, eventually succeed, having all the resources and time on its side. This is also exactly what has happened here, with 30 years of crippling privatizations, undermining of workers right through loopholes in manpower company hiring and the active policy decision of crippling LAS (our most fundamental employment protection act), a slow but steady decline in union membership owing to the neutering effect Social Democracy has on their militancy, the instating of a neoliberal school system almost identical to the one set up in Chile under Pinochet... the list is almost endless, and at the helm of it all are, and have been, the Social Democrats. Social Democracy is, and always has been, the final guardian of capitalism. I implore you, if any of you are given the opportunity to in your countries, to learn from our mistakes and move beyond it. It sets you up for a permanent class struggle that the workers will, inevitably, lose.

[@BladeValant546]

I live in the USA..... social democracy would be epic.

[@Asrahn]

@@daniellarson3068 They do not - I belong to a vanishingly small minority. There's a subset of them, people and politician both, that generally recognize the economic system at its core as being the fundamental issue and biggest challenge we face, with varying theoretical understanding thereof, but owing to Social Democracy having successfully placed itself as the foremost if (not only) true "sensible left" political force - this having been done, historically, by utilizing among other things the Swedish secret service, going so far as to open entire new intelligence branches thereof, to suppress, sideline and harrass further left-leaning individuals out of popular movements and, ultimately, to attain full control of union leadership to fuel their political project - it has served to alienate and disillusion people in general from what is ostensibly "left" politics. The Left Party gets about 10% of the vote but is generally viewed by the rest of the population (including the Social Democrats, who have historically had to extremely reluctantly negotiate for their support in order to remain in power, but have never let them join in actual forming of governments) as pinko commies not meriting consideration. Meanwhile the third supposedly "left" alternative that is the Environmentalist Party are effectively liberals who are perfectly fine with whatever draconian austerity politics or privatization the right-wing might levy so long as they get concessions in the form higher taxes on gasoline, plastic bags or similar feckless, hyper-individualistic non-solutions to climate change, merely inconveniencing the everyday person to the point where they barely reached the 4% limit last election. The way the pendulum is swinging with our recent right-wing election victory is in the favor of american politics, and neofascist formations. It's going to have to get a lot worse before people actually start waking up and realizing what lies at the core of the rot of our society, if they indeed ever do, and by then it might be too late for us. Do not repeat our mistakes.

[@Asrahn]

@@daniellarson3068 Solidarity, and godspeed.

[@quentin6505]

Great video. French citizen here, what you describe is exactly what's happening in France for the last 40 years. France built for itself a "hard" social democratic pact after WWII. But didn't destroyed the power of the capital. The consensus was maintened as long as our communist and labor unions were strong enough to defend it. Now everything we gained is being attacked from our hospital, our labors right, our publics companies

[@tetra.]

France is going through unrest right now, so it is the perfect opportunity to recruit new socialists and foment a revolution. Do anything you can to help, especially joining a party.

[@quentin6505]

@@tetra. I am in the French communist party

[@tetra.]

@@quentin6505 Congratulations! You can always help out in their events or rallies, or you can try to recruit coworkers, friends, family, etc. to the cause. However, do note that if you decide to participate in strikes you may just be prolonging the capitalist condition by granting proletariat concessions instead of total victory.

[@Spido68_the_spectator]

​@@quentin6505Also french here. The biggest problem is that the entire left spectrum nuked itself over time, because of exessive infighting and, worse of all, tried to force everyone into a single line. Which is incredibly stupid. Could only turn bad and it did

[@firstwavenegativity6379]

France has few of the good characteristics of the Nordic model and all of the bad ones, it's not falling apart because of "the power of capital" or "the jews" or whatever esoteric nonsense. It's falling apart because it's badly run

[@masterofalltrades_]

Nordic social democracy is just class collaboration (or corporatism) with the capitalist class still in power, where labour exploitation continues to take power and where there is a constant threat of neoliberal or far-right governments. Plus, it's also imperialist because their big companies (IKEA, H&M, etc.) exploit workers in the global south, making them work at sweatshops and under terrible working conditions. Not to mention. Their military interventions, like Norway's military bombing Libya during the NATO intervention, from which the country still suffers.

[@Stryfe52]

This feels like the most important video you’ve uploaded so far - at least for me. I’d always look to the Nordic countries and wondered why they were an exception, and while I kind of knew why, the fact that they’re basically a ticking time-bomb helped to open my eyes.

[@trashpanda6885]

There is a very good reason why Stalin called social democracy the moderate wing of fascism.

[@gottpersoenlich]

@@trashpanda6885 The USA goes far faster in the direction of fascism than social democracys like Sweden ,Germany,Ireland, Norway,Finnlandand the Netherlands go.

[@gottpersoenlich]

@@trashpanda6885 1.Neolibs are moderate fascist and 2.Stalin wasn't a socialist he masively inriched himself

[@trashpanda6885]

@@gottpersoenlich lmao ok

[@mho...]

well the "northern countries" have tiny populations... oftentimes around the same number as the usa has in a single city.... but make alot of money, so they can easily affort things for their citizens!

[@kyyyni]

As a social democrat from Finland, I will just argue that social democracy has the best long-term track record worldwide by far. Now, according to @SecondThought 's eschatology, it's unstable and will eventually collapse. We'll see. Meanwhile, I am yet to see a functioning socialist system in history or the present in which I'd want to live 😐

[@biskit8050]

@@ivan_ivankovich not as well functioning as Finland

[@firstwavenegativity6379]

@@ivan_ivankovich Cuba and Vietnam both have much lower quality of life than Finland. Vietnam is getting better though, ironically because it's implementing market-based reforms

[@eidiazcas]

@@ivan_ivankovich great examples of why socialism sucks

[@AdamKyles]

@@firstwavenegativity6379 Neither country was wealthy before they became socialist. It isn't socialism that's made them less well-functioning than Sweden.

[@davidx.1504]

Cuba and vietnam are both illiberal/authoritarian. You don't wanna live there

[@Dis_Dis]

Social Democracy is like negotiating with the thief who wants to steal your sh*t.

[@Dis_Dis]

@Soldat Intelectual Take a f*cking guess

[@mho...]

thats just not right! Social Democracy only means it trys to put the overall well being of Humans first! and not pure monetary/political/military/ideological gain!

[@Dis_Dis]

@@mho... Yeah, putting the needs of people first. By making compromises with the people who want to exploit and steal from those people. Hence the analogy of "Negotiating with a thief"

[@mho...]

@@Dis_Dis ugh, ok, nevermind... ur one of those that can look at the sun & only burn your eyes & think about skincancer, but cant see the benefits for the planet it provides..... just stop

[@Dis_Dis]

@@mho... That's the worst analogy I've ever heard in my life. Who's the sun in this situation?

[@Joostmhw]

Can't wait for this to reach a larger audience, you're doing great keep it up :3

[@carlkolthoff5402]

Excellent video! Considering you used Sweden as an example, I would like to point out a few things about Swedish politics, that I feel maybe isn't so widely known by people abroad (I'm Swedish): While the Swedish Social Democratic Party have been the largest single party in Sweden for the past hundred years, that doesn't mean they've had more than 50% of the votes more than twice ever. We have a coalition government consisting of 7-8 parties, making a lot of compromise necessary. There's always been influence from conservatives and liberals. And sometimes, like the recent election in 2022, the opposite block is in majority. Since 1991 to 2022 there's been moderate prime ministers for 11 years and social democratic for 20 years. So while I admit decline in our society, I don't particularly blame it on social democracy, but rather the parties need to cooperate with the opposition and therefore practice a watered down social democracy. I think a lot if Swedes - myself included - feels a bit weird when foreign media points uses us an example of how a Social Democracy works. There are a lot of right wing conservatives and liberals here that talk loudly of how much they dislike social democracy and leftists (while enjoying mandated paid vacation, parental leave, free education, free healthcare...).

[@dekippiesip]

You have it a lot better than many people in other countrues though. It's always fashionable to bash your own country, particularly It's politics. But you don't have issues on the same level as in the US, let alone developing countries. If you get in a car accident tomorrow, I don't think you'll have to be thinking about leaving your house because of hospital bills.

[@tjerkvandenbos1996]

Inline in the Netherlands and here as well social democracy is slowly hollowed out…..tiny step by tiny step we are slowly moving more to an American style democracy

[@masond7573]

Noooo I need somewhere to move to from the US!! That sucks but at least you guys get stuff back for the taxes you pay..we get next to nothing. Visiting the Netherlands next month and it'll be nice not to drive a car everywhere I need to go.

[@qjtvaddict]

Disaster fight by any means

[@qjtvaddict]

@@masond7573 not anymore

[@tmntchad]

True, but I would gladly take Social Democracy as a start over what we are doomed to live in for the next 30 years.

[@SecondThought]

As I mention in the video, it’s a step in the right direction for somewhere like the US. Just not sufficient as an end goal.

[@jeffengel2607]

There's some work to be done (1) assuring hard-core socialists that social democracy _is not_ a resting place for any of us on the determined left, and (2) USING the relative power and security the proletariat in a social democracy has to continue eroding/killing capitalism rather than letting it unfetter itself again. Don't STOP there doesn't mean don't GO there at all.

[@cemotazca8628]

I live in a social democracy and can tell you ist just very very slightly better than the hardcore American Capitalism. Its still a form of capitalism after all, and we dont have much say about what is done politically.

[@LeftistUprising]

I fully agree that everything should NOT be privatized. But I was thinking of other forms of anti-capitalism. Not everyone is a worker. We have retirees and people less than 14 who aren't legally old enough to work. Plus, even though I don't work at a water company, I should be free to get water without anyone profiteering off of my thirst. However, I agree with the premise of this beautiful video. Thank you Second Thought!!! We love you comrade!

[@Nightmare-pj4fg]

Communism doesn’t force retirees and children to work XD Retirees retire, and you begin work after school. The only change is how you relate to that labor when you BECOME a worker (more control over your work place, how second thought described it in the first two minutes of the video, etc) and how that new relationship then helps you until you retire, wherein the benefits of a Communist society (guaranteed needs such as housing, food, water, etc) guarantee good living conditions until death. Or maybe I misunderstood the comment? There aren’t any other forms of anti capitalism except for Communism and Anarchism, so 🤷‍♂️

[@sumdumbbeats9879]

Yeah if workers were not exploited it be much easier to retire and take care of your kids

[@roy4173]

I initially got caught up in the wording too, but there really isn't a popular English term to describe the non-owner class, which would include retirees and self-employed. The next closest term is the proletariat. But I think it's safe to say that most of the references to the "workers" and "working class" in this video is, in fact, addressing any non-owner class person, regardless of their employment status.

[@aabrightlove]

@@roy4173 I believe the term you're looking for here is "plebeian" or just "plebe"

[@liamvt2]

Water sources would just be used as a public utility under socialism too. Problem solved. Common sense changes like that would be a lot easier to achieve under a more democratic system.

[@madelinevlogs5898]

Thank you for this! I used to support the Nordic model but in the past year or so, I’ve realized we need socialism. This video sums up the differences really well

[@Silvertip_M]

For Socialism to come into effect, you would need overwhelming popular support as well as a population who is willing to invest significantly into its implementation. That's a huge lift for most capitalist nations who rely on nearly 50% of the population not being politically active. In the end, social democracy isn't the solution, but it makes sense as a stop on the road to socialism. Honestly, is there a single-step transition from capitalism to socialism that doesn't end up causing misery on a wide scale and doesn't risk the revolution to be taken over by greedy and self-serving people which would lead to creating an even more exploitative system?

[@Silvertip_M]

@@MrSam2497 it's still a far better system than what currently exists in the US and most of the world. If you have a workable plan to make socialism a reality in our current social and economic reality I am all ears. There is a fairly clear roadmap to social democracy though and its very much in the correct direction. I would note that these systems struggle to operate surrounded by more capitalist nations. The more other countries move in this direction, the more progressive these nations can be. In my opinion, there are no shortcuts to the road to socialism because it requires a high level of civic and social engagement. Without it, it is far too likely to fail and turn authoritarian which is anathema to true socialism.

[@ianalan4367]

Please name one socialist society that has existed for over 100 years. History suggests it only works at first but then, we’ll, the country runs out of ‘other peoples money’ and it’s all down hill from there.

[@ragnar0209]

The nordic model is much more socialist than this guy's definition of social democracy though lol.

[@ragnar0209]

@@MrSam2497 this is bullshit lol, the social democrats of Nordic countries have always been giving solidarily to other countries, and it's a part of the success. One of the whole points is that this is a common interest struggle, not a national one, you're just projecting your own stance.

[@militaryforcestv1]

Amazing, you explained a complex topic in a very simple way in a short time. Thank you for doing this.

[@djglockmane]

This is an extremely important video, i hope u change the minds of some DSA/ Twitter type "socialists"

[@alextroller9321]

Quality content as always! And if its not just a feeling, the production quality seems to be getting better and better on each video! Keep up the great work comrade!

[@purplehaze2358]

I can't help but feel slightly depressed watching this. Like, I know capitalism will fall at some point, it's basically an inevitability with the slow and steady growth of anti-capitalism as a movement; but I also know that will likely take _ages_ for it to finally fall with such a strangle hold on politics.

[@jeremiahbaxter6887]

Look at it this way: the notion of a slow, steady decline of capitalism is kind of an abstraction that doesn't accurately map onto reality. The truth is that revolutionary change happens in fits and starts, and corresponds to the outbreak of revolutionary crises which occur on a cyclical basis. These crises come about as a natural result of the contradictions inherent in capitalism, and they have existed as long as capitalism has been around. But because they arise from the inherent contradictions of capitalism, we can't decide or even predict when they will happen, or what form they will take. But we can know with certainty that they will. The capitalist status quo can go from feeling rock solid to an existential crisis of legitimacy incredibly quickly. Our job as revolutionaries is to educate and organize to the point that, when the next revolutionary crisis comes, we're in a position to take advantage of it. All this to say, we're not waiting for capitalism to die on its own. What we're waiting for is for it to trip over itself, like it has always done at pretty regular intervals, and in the meantime preparing to land a killing blow on it when it does. This is why Lenin, who didn't believe he'd see a revolution in his lifetime, ended up leading the greatest proletarian revolution of them all. You can help bring it about by getting involved with organizing in your local area.

[@shybard]

Over the years, I've leaned further and further left. When I first started getting political, I was a diehard centrist. I made the idiotic mistakes of thinking that both sides should be considered equally. But when one side is literally supporting slavery, sweatshops, and the end of life on Earth, it really doesn't deserve our consideration. As long as capitalism and capitalists are propped up and allowed to maintain power, we will continue to teeter on the edge of oblivion. Social Democracy makes this mistake, so it simply isn't a defensible position, both ideologically and in practice. It may be a useful first step in order to correct the ship and steer us away from literal extinction. But none of us should make the error in judgment of believing it to be the end goal.

[@kalle5548]

As a Swede I think your reason behind the decline in Sweden is misguided, in my opinion more a fault of politicians ignoring problems and chasing power. So far Scandinavia is probably the best place on earth to live and we got here with Social Democracy, until another system stability surpasses that I'll stick to Social Democracy

[@kalle5548]

@Mason I mean go make your lovely system work better, in reality, dreaming is easy, implementing this kind of reform is incredibly hard and risky and guarantees nothing, as far as I'm aware no long term implementation has ever been done. Since it isn't any worse than other systems on the global scale, and provides the best living standards so far, maybe it shouldn't be the first to be ripped up,

[@Dr_Mel]

In my experience, the biggest problem with political discussions with someone you disagree with is that they're very likely to cite some fact you've simply never heard of that sounds like, if true, would be prove their entire argument almost on its own. It lines up with absolutely nothing you've ever heard before, it intuitively runs counter to what you know is happening, and so the only recourse you have is to demure and say "I've never heard that before, I guess I can't speak to that" and let them keep railroading the conversation with this "information" or escalate things and call them either a liar or an idiot for believing that information. It's a waste of time no matter what. It's not complicated because politics is particularly complicated for normal people and what they want in their lives, it's complicated because people live in a world of alternate truth.

[@AdamKyles]

I think people understand politics, then political language gets in the way, although you are right about how political debates tend to go. People can look at their lives and see what works and what doesn't, what feels ethical to them and what doesn't, how they want to be treated. To me this is people understanding politics. Then what politicians and the media say, to suit their own agenda, gets in the way, and people imagine that politics is too boring or complicated for them to understand it.

[@warpdrivefueledbyinsomnia8165]

In case anyone's wondering, a capital strike is what we're on the verge of in the US. I'm sure some have already started. That's how you can have employers saying "we can't hire people" and employees saying "we can't afford anything". Employers aren't hiring because they don't want to, and they can just wait it out. Work from home, post-covid wages, and work-life balance are going to take a major hit soon.

[@LibertarianLeninistRants]

To all Social Democrats: Why would you want to live in a social democratic system? Why would you want to have the class conflict still going on inside of your society? Why would you want to still have capitalists that by their class position are incentivized to undermine the will of the people, who are incentivized to corrupt politics for their own gains? Why would you want to have social welfare but also enemies of social welfare? Why do you want to have to defend your social security system year after year after year because you also allow for groups to exist that by their class position are interested to destroy these systems?

[@matthiasschaus5112]

SocDem here. Why would I want to have a Social Democratic system? Why would I want to have enemies of welfare along with the supporters of it? Okay here is my explanation: I think Socialism sounds amazing if it could work. And I truly want it to work. However, I believe that unfortunately humans are inherently selfish and therefore capital is likely the only motivation for creating wealth. You may say wealth is not everything and I am thinking too much about money. The reason I think this way is only because I think that wealth is important simply for funding social policies and welfare. If we switch to socialism then of course the government would not need to be concerned about being friendly to profit which would allow it to help the bottom class without worrying about responses from investors and billionaires. But then I feel as thought we would simply run out of money under socialism. There would be no motivation for people to work or companies to make a profit. I think the economy would stop creating wealth and the government would then not be able to fund social welfare programs or new infrastructure investments. So socialism would mean the government could theoretically do more but then it would be held back by a lack of resources. Under social democratic capitalism the government will bend to profit and capital but also provide welfare and benefits to its citizens while still allowing for wealth to be created by an unequal playing field. And that’s another thing: I believe inequality has gotten far out of hand but a small amount of inequality is enough to motivate people to climb the ladder of capitalism and create wealth which in turn will benefit the rest of us if we have strong social programs. (I acknowledge that is not at all how it works right now). It’s unfortunate but I feel as though capitalism with an extremely strong welfare state is the best model. Please prove me wrong and be nice with your response. I would love for socialism to work somehow.

[@Evannnnnnnn2]

Socdem here. It is because I believe that social democracy has created the best societies on the planet, the reason I believe this is since the Nordic countries (they have adopted systems that are social democratic in nature) are constantly near the top of every positive country ranking chart. And while I am perfectly fine with experimenting with more left wing and socialist policies, I am unwilling to completely hedge my bets on socialism, though I also do oppose neoliberal economics WAY more than I do democratic socialism. I also believe that while class conflict is obviously a thing it isn’t the only conflict in society, there is conflict between urban and rural people, progressives and conservatives, etc. And I don’t believe that just because we get rid of capitalism all conflict will go away in our society, I more believe in political pluralism to try to solve our issues and the ability of everyone to express their voice, even if I disagree with them strongly.

[@darthcalyx8986]

I personally see Social Democracy as a important stepping stone on the way to socialism because usually rapid changes in the function of a nation are destructive and weaken the nation so Social democracy is needed in order to bridge the gap.

[@andrewmaskevich6073]

When I first started reading socialistic literature I realized that social democracy is the middle. Especially in America, people see Bernie, AOC, and Nordic countries as radically left but that's incorrect. Socialism is true left and Neoliberalism is the conservative approach; if you're a pro-capitalist that doesn't align with social democracy then you're not a moderate.

[@Summathescorcher]

@@daniellarson3068 the trouble is that what tends to happen is that the US sanctions you, which cripples the entire populace. If you get lucky and the US doesn't pay attention, then I could see it working just fine, hopefully without too much authoritarianism.

[@andrewmaskevich6073]

@Daniel Larson it is impossible to point out a "pure" socialist country as most that voted for socialism ended with some form of America's government inferring. From Argentina to Iran to even some European countries after the second world War, every time there's been a movement towards socialism the CIA has stepped in. Whether it was through financing a military coup, installing a pro-capitalist dictator, or pumping propaganda and campaign contributions to the political opposition, socialism has never been allowed to flourish.

[@mehr_Sozialismus_wagen]

I live in Germany and this speaks out of my soul. Thank you! Big fan. Btw big fan of the Podcast as well.

[@WastedContender]

solidarische Grüße aus Berlin :)

[@mr.gigagod9736]

Nordic country's aren't Soicalist. Starting a business in Sweden is very easy. Also it's not just the rich being taxed, it's the middle class. When we say "Soicalism" we don't mean Sweden, we mean look at the USSR.

[@norakderrote2136]

I am from Germany and i can agree with everything you say in this video. The benefits of the social democracy here are stripped away little by little.

[@kwancomics]

Have been a frequent viewer for too long. Just subscribed to your Patreon. (Oh, and Nebula as well last week. Great stuff!) Thanks for all your work!

[@SecondThought]

Thanks so much! I really appreciate your support!

[@noya_3461]

anyone else here from papaplatte?

[@down-to-earth-mystery-school]

So essentially, a very small number of humans ant an extravagant lifestyle at the expense of others having food, clean water, shelter and medical care. It’s beyond greed, it’s sociopathy

[@bigjake360t]

Sometimes I want to give up, but when I see a way forward I can keep going a little bit further. So thank you.

[@dermotdonnelly5495]

An employee is pissed off with his boss and complains about his pay and conditions. The boss takes him outside to the company car park and points at a brand new Rolls Royce car. The boss says; "See that car, that's mine. Now if you work really hard and do lots of overtime I'm going to be able to buy another one next year" 😀

[@Leftistattheparty]

Social Democrats are allies but not comrades.

[@Parallax-ec4ik]

We're not allies...

[@HistoryforThinkers]

“When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.” -Marx

[@memethat...2822]

Groucho Marx was so wise

[@raymondhartmeijer9300]

@@memethat...2822 No, it was Richard Marx about his new album

[@hello89940]

Sounds like the talibans

[@alexpazaitis]

One common misunderstanding is that the purpose of the social democratic project historically was not to fix society; it was to fix Capitalism. Typical social democratic policies, like the ones mentioned in the video, are actually the most effective way for capitalist accumulation and growth to take place. The underlying idea is that such policies produce a win-win situation for capitalists and workers alike, because accumulation and growth is based on technological innovation, high productivity, high effective demand, mission-oriented investments, and robust safety nets and societal welfare. The problem with this approach, as it was very nicely discussed in the video, is that, first, it is still based on the exploitation of people and nature elsewhere, and, second, it cannot be perpetuated forever. The latter effect has two sides. The one side is the undemocratic structure of the economy and production (which was adequately covered in the video) that always depends on the "benevolence" of the 1% to keep investment and production where it produces socially desirable outcomes. As long as their bottom-line keeps going upwards, they are fine with being "regulated" and redistribution policies, while the political system can maintain adequate stability and public support, without the need to clash with capital. The problem begins when the goals of capital and society begin to diverge, and this is the other side of the unsustainability of social democracy. The dynamics of accumulation are based on harnessing technological change and innovation to boost productivity and continuously expand production and growth. However, it has been empirically shown again and again (from Kondratiev, to Schumpeter, Perez or Minsky), technological change comes in waves lasting 50-60 years (there is no consensus on the explanation of this, but the fact that the phenomenon does happen is indisputable). Towards the end of these cycles, technologies become "mature" and cannot provide the same levels of productivity growth and, since accumulation has to continue, capital turns to its other option: the race to the bottom. Path dependencies, greed, risk-aversion, and short-mindedness, which are all inherent in the capitalist economic structures, impede capital from investing in new technologies that may boost productivity. Instead capital begins investing in itself (e.g., see stock buy-backs, synthetic debt, etc.), which does not increase production or profitability. To maintain profitability capital uses its power to push for austerity policies for the 99% (corporate tax-cuts, work "flexibility", wage cuts, revocation of welfare), coupled with massive expansion in public money supply to the financial system, in the threat of "systemic risk". Capitalism is prone to crises due to its own mechanics, and there has never been a historical occasion of a crisis in which capital reacted differently - it has always been only about saving itself, while maintaining the status quo for as long as possible, whatever it takes. The social democratic project is exposed in these occasions, where it always takes the turn to bail out capital out of "necessity" or "pragmatism", because this is "what the economy needs." The best trick of capitalism has been to disguise these policy choices as value-neutral technical fixes. The way capitalism works is categorically inconsistent with any form of social justice, democracy, and sustainability in the long-term. And in all these, we haven't even begun to account for the cumulative effects of perpetual growth and exploitation of planetary resources and ecological degradation created in the process. Neither did we even considered the massive domain of the economy not included in the books, such as domestic unpaid work, care and reproductive work, nor that the bulk of this excess production and consumption still fails to cover basic human needs for the majority of the population. The overall size of the pie of people and nature to-be-exploited is gradually reduced. So-called "natural" crises put additional pressures (such as pandemics, droughts, climate events, etc.), which are basically the direct results of cumulative pressures on the ecology. Hence, every crisis is worse than the previous, on a path leading to continuous degradation and collapse. How much of this human misery and ecological collapse we are willing to tolerate is a political choice, which we make every day we accept this system.

[@thisiszeev]

Thank you for yet another brilliant and well put video. Would love to see a video that addresses oppression in previous communist/solicalist regimes. I get this question so often, and telling people that oppression is not socialism doesn't seem to cut it with people.

[@dmike3507]

You can maybe try explaining to them that the Soviet Union styled itself as socialist precisely to disguise itself from the exact opposite. Not likely they will understand you. But you can give the example that the government owning everything a worker produces is not much different than a private business owner doing the same; admittedly the latter is better as at least you can "choose your oppression" so to speak. How socialism was originally defined the workers owned the fruits of their own labor. Even figures adored by conservatives like Adam Smith & Abraham Lincoln advocated that workers should own the very products they produce, so it was certainly not a radical idea back then. It became considered radical after the Carnegies, Rockefellers, and various corporate lobbies, associations, think tanks, media, etc. took over the country.

[@NoobieToob]

You should give up. Socialism is a utopian pipe dream and not a serious contender to capitalism in any capacity. Power hungry psychopaths who love rabble-rousing will inevitably get into power under socialism and at the end you'll end up with something not too dissimilar to Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. (all excellent examples of socialists).

[@thisiszeev]

@@NoobieToob and that is where the problem lies. My wife joined a company with all these promises made to her. She broke the previous company record of 3 months to bring in new clients. She literally had 3 pd clients with 3 weeks. Now they renagged. She has been told she will never earn more than her starting salary and they have now limited what kind of clients she can approach. Plus they bought her a phone expecting her to keep working when she gets home. She is now looking for other work.

[@NoobieToob]

@@thisiszeev She should leave and join some other company that values her better. I've had shoddy experience with work in the past too. I rage quit one of my previous job and landed another one (after a 6 months gap) which is so much better and chill.

[@thisiszeev]

@@NoobieToob I am starting a new contract that will be very lucrative. Once I have some tom in the bank she is going to quit to market my business full-time. I pay very well. My attitude is I would rather make R100 profit on your work than R1000 on my own work.

[@ananas_fin161]

In finland we have 500,000 unpaid workers and 3,948 homeless people. The system doesn't work.

[@MommysGoodPuppy]

socdem govt, soon to be right wing 🤷

[@ananas_fin161]

@@MommysGoodPuppy It's already right wing

[@kalaster189]

Growing up in a conservative house hold, all your talking points are what my parents preached as to why capitalism is the best, to keep the rich happy. And they say we are free'er for it.... Damn hipocrits... They're suffering financially just as bad as I am, but they keep preaching, they keep stroking off capitalism, hoping it will dump truck loads of wealth on their face.

[@flyingchong]

The worst part is that here in the US, any slight taste of even just a social democracy is considered radical. Geez we're even freaking calling our president Joe Biden a socialist. I'm so over trying to fix anything here. I just wanna move out of this country. Mentally, there's nothing tying me to here anymore.

[@invasion8318]

come to Poland, we know how to party and our girls are shexxy :)

[@tetra.]

Join an organization and start recruiting, then. It’s better to revolt against the system than flee from it.

[@joanna62]

There is no fixing the US as the programming is far too embedded. The downfall will continue until the country realizes it needs to be remade which will happen by force.

[@adamcorfman573]

@@joanna62 And most other countries will go down the same path until eventually there's no "better country" to move to.

[@ThatRandomGuyInTheComments]

you know what, this video moved me over further left from being a socdem. That alone warrants a patreon sub.

[@lowkoalatee4033]

Awesome transition it be like that as you expand theory knowledge and its bound to happen people just need to take that step to go further.

[@thevictor180]

✊

[@drummerxkun]

Ex social Democrat current Marxist here! And I’m glad to say that the second thought channel was what led to understand what socialism actually is. Amazing video this week JT, it’s so crucial!

[@Mortablunt]

Well, why are you waiting around here? Go to North Korea!

[@drummerxkun]

​@@Mortablunt what does this even mean? why do you think this is an "argument", i'm genuinely curious what your thought process was? Because your argument against marxism is how a small resource-poor country, who suffered under a war the US used as a battleground to wipe out 10% of the korean population, split up the country, and then had to find a way to continue surviving through never-ending brutal isolationist embargos and sanctions imposed by the west/global north, who despite all the external challenges imposed on them managed to develop beyond their initial status as one of the poorest nations in the world, even poorer than many sub-suharan african countries? If capitalists are so confident that socialism/communism will always fail, why try so hard to sanction, embargo, start a war, coup, assasinate socialists in every corner of the earth - just let it run its course and die out? Why did you think this was a good argument and not think about how I'd have a better argument against YOU, if i used the exact same wording/"logic" but replacing the the country - saying "if you like capitalism so much, go live in [insert an african country who experiences absolute poverty, with standards of living even WORSE than NK] - at least the conditions that result in poverty there are DIRECTLY attributed to capitalism - beyond the regular exploitation and expropriation of Africa's resources and labour attributed to regular ol imperialism, to military and political destabilization from decades of coups and wars backed-by or directly conducted by US troops, but even more DIRECTLY, how it a direct testament to the "success" of the neoliberal economic policies forced onto these developing counties by wealthy capitalist countries through international institutions like the IMF and World Bank (as written about by a famous, capitalist, south korean economic professor ha-joon chang himself). AND THE WORST part is, ive not even gotten to the part where I even get to address your understanding of what marxism even is and how it relates to NK. Marxism is a method of analysis, when i say im a marxist, i mean i analyse the world through the lens of class relations, i hadnt even GOTTEN to the point of describing where i stand on what i think is the best way to transition out of capitalism, so why would you even bring up NK as a response to my initial comment. Even beyond the "implementation of socialism", I didn't even claim I thought NK was marxist in any way. If say i said in the comments that i was an anarcho-communist and you brought up the paris commune, or a marxist leninist and you brought up the USSR, or i said i believe in juche and you brought up NK or i said i was a maoist and you brought up china, then suuuure i guess, that would be a valid concern or argument to clarify or make, but its clear that you're not even at the stage of understand WHAT marxism even is, let alone how different societies have tried used it differently. So why did you think your NON-ARGUMENT that doesnt even address what my comment was claiming, based on a complete lack of understanding of a topic was valid in any way. I'm not even mad about you not knowing what marxism is, I'm still learning myself. I'm more mad and baffled that you confidently commented this because I would be embarrassed to make this argument EVEN when i was a capitalist.

[@_SteelRain]

Actually North Korea is good everything about it is western propaganda and lies.... By who!? Capitalistsb Cry about it

[@Wok_Agenda]

I would like a video about the basic knowledge of political spectrum, about what really is the political spectrum , its history and how the far right changes the meaning to blur the picture

[@rustyp69]

horseshoe theory was taught to me as fact in my AP Government class. first day the teacher put up a slide showing portraits of "great Americans" Ronald Reagan and Milton Friedman. that man is now the head of social studies and handpicks the curriculum for the entire department. lol.

[@Brian-tn4cd]

He already has i believe

[@Wok_Agenda]

The political spectrum is so basic yet it is so ingenious and simple to understand. But the last ten years i listen to poor right-wings say that there is not left and right there are only globalists and localists and that kind of crappy propaganda to blur the big picture

[@Random-ob7dc]

I wrote a text about communism, the political spectrum and capitalism. Im just gonna make a very short, short simplified version right now. So the political spectrum is usually divided between left and right (I know there are "up and down" too but its not too relevant at the moment). The right end of the spectrum is pure capitalism. That point is as right as you can go, a full pure capitalist. On the opposite, left side we have Communism, as far left as you can possibly go. USA is the closest country I can think of that has a pure capitalistic economy. At the moment, cuba seems to be the most Communistic Economy. So the further left, the more communism, the further right, the more capitalism. Socialism is something in between, an equal between them both, but not at the center. Socialism is usually a less extreme communism. As no country can properly function with pure communism or capitalism alone (its possible but it would be hell itself) you often have to mix it with different other ideologies, like the Soviet union that mixed Communism with totalitarianism. There are different types of "Socialism" depending on what you "mix" it with. Or how you use it. For example, Social Democracy (also called Democratic Socialism) is based around on having a democratic system with Socialistic politics and policies with a capitalistic economy. Not a full Capitalist economy, just a slightly toned down (as its been talked in the video). Yet another type of Socialism, which is communistic in both economy and politics (as a difference from Democratic Socialism). This is often called Marxism Socialism, or Marxism-Leninism. Its a bit confusing but, basically, this type of socialism is not really socialism. Its more of a "communism tutorial" The Idea is that every the country you want to install this "socialism" in needs to be capitalistic at first. When the country has reached a high Economic level it then needs to go over to Socialism and a planned economy. After that it further goes into a Communistic Economy. I could keep going explaining different ideologies, but this is too long already.

[@silak33]

As someone from Scandinavia this fit quite well. Especially the later years we have seen the effect of how much our public sector has been weakened...

[@NostalgicMem0ries]

scandinavia was example for entire world how can democratic socialism can work and be among top countries in world in most of categories. sadly you became victim of libertards, now invaded by imigrants from all sides and capitalists using this time to gain more power.r

[@watamatafoyu]

Bernie's a perfect example of someone who's made social democracy work for the community. Look at his own changes in Burlington and Vermont.

[@antediluvianatheist5262]

For how long?

[@watamatafoyu]

@@antediluvianatheist5262 You tell me. Maybe you missed the point 🤔

[@mooode841]

Crazy bernie?

[@watamatafoyu]

@rhamlet5290 The point is in the OP. What happened after he left leadership isn't under his control.

[@watamatafoyu]

@rhamlet5290 You wanted me to explain in a KZbin comment or do you want me to leave Google search links for you?

[@sa1t]

Social democracy is enough. It's the perfect balance between capitalism and socialism. It helps reduce differences between classes in society, while still ensuring a relatively good economic growth. Look at Sweden for example. It manages to have a good well fare, without the country becoming poor. We need high paying jobs and low paying jobs for society to work.

[@FranciscoJG]

"We need high paying jobs and low paying jobs for society to work" - why, exactly?

[@FRISHR]

“Socialism is based” -PragerU

[@bwatson77]

As someone whose politics is less geared towards any particular ideology and more geared towards pragmatic problem solving, I felt that this was a fair critique of Social Democracy. Social Democracy is far from perfect for the reasons you outline, but it does have the advantage of numerous case studies of countries successfully transitioning away from US style capitalism to this model (something that can't be said for socialism in advanced industrial countries, at least at this point). One point that is worth emphasizing more is that Social Democracy is great for demonstrating that Leftist policy solutions actually work, moving the Overton window Left and opening a space for more participatory forms of social engagement and for building the kinds of social solidarity that would be needed to sustain socialism.

[@monsieurdorgat6864]

Very interesting! As a US citizen, Social Democracy is probably the best we can hope to strive for within my lifetime. I don't really believe in the success of a completely violent revolution, because the winner of a violent revolution is the violent, not the righteous or popular. Definitely agree that a truly democratic system should be the end goal, but I don't think trying to shortcut our way there will necessarily end well. It historically hasn't either - for reasons both domestic and foreign.

[@spaceinbetween6591]

Same reason why I remain a social democrat. It’s the only "realistic" choice that can solve issues in our lifetime. I choose Bernie over Stalin.

[@monsieurdorgat6864]

@@spaceinbetween6591 I mean... There are also just much better examples of actual socialists than Stalin. I think the real reason I prefer social democracy over true socialism is because social democracy is possible without a completely new constitution - i.e., a military coup. A violent coup won't work out well for anybody except the most violent faction. Definitely not how a just or peaceful government prevails.

[@monsieurdorgat6864]

@@kennethjohnson-lh1fs Yeah, I think I've since come around to understanding that. We should still try, though. But yes it's likely that's not going to work. Downside then is that I don't think armed insurrection will work either. Military tech is so insane that any group can be infiltrated and divided, and even failing that one elite can level a city.

[@monsieurdorgat6864]

@vyhozshu How is it idealist?

[@Renatofsa355]

I will be a Patreon as soon as I find a better job. Right now I`m struggling Financially as a blue colour worker. Thank you for the video!

[@MarkSkull85]

I just want to add this: After watching this video, I realized I really am a Social Democrat, and I'm cool with that. I want to thank you, though, for making this video. We may not 100% agree on the solution, but I never felt bad or isolated watching this video. Instead I felt like you took the time to explain both where I was coming from and where you were coming from, and you presented a ton of great ideas and concepts. I really appreciate it, and I really enjoy your videos. Keep it up, and I will be sharing this!

[@SecondThought]

Glad you liked the video! Maybe I’ll win you over someday 😉

[@grmgt]

Thank you so much for pointing out that social democracy only works in wealthier countries through imperialist practices in the global south. We have a saying here in the brazilian left: "It's one thing when you go to Canada (e.g though environmental laws), it's a completely different one when Canada comes to you (e.g their companies f' our environment)"

[@Austinkungfuacademy]

Great video! I definitely want you to produce more content like this, so I became a Patron. These are big and powerful ideas, and I'd like to build off of them. Thank you for your work.

[@juicyjames2074]

Bruh more People need to actually listen to your videos instead of ranting in the comments. I remember watching you a couple years ago and you totally changed my mindset and made it better

[@cpdukes1]

What socialist country offers better wages, health care and quality of life than social democrat countries? What "Global South" country wants the capitalist enterprises to exit their economies?

[@LucaShutz]

Capitalist Enterprises were opened the door by imperialism through history, the USA and its past adventures such as the bananas situation tell enough. They can't be kicked out, most exploited countries aren't powerful enough on a political level. Revolution is the way there, it's highly connected with anti colonialism in this sense.

[@reversefulfillment9189]

You are so good explaining things clearly. I'm sure that your approach that light bulbs are brightening in some dark and dusty places.