Why some lyrics sound awkward (text setting)

[@GalenDeGraf]

UPDATE A MONTH LATER: 12tone just did a video on this exact topic. The first half of that video is almost exactly the same material as this video, but then it goes into some other nuances about vowels and more. If you're interested, you can watch that through this link: kzbin.info/www/bejne/a6CrimCZhq2SasUsi=3e1D_vCYCSG8IdY3

[@monoverantus]

And now Adam Neely's done it too.

[@GalenDeGraf]

@ I only skimmed Adam Neely’s but it looks like he covers similar ground in an original way without using the entire structure of my video the way 12tone did.

[@indyfan9845]

Text setting is especially less important in a pop song, because there is always going to be one definitive recording. When most people sing it, they're going to just copy the way it's sung by the pop star. For choir or musical theatre, text setting is more important, since every choir or actor who sings it should be putting a different spin on it. That's easier to do if singing it feels natural, which good text setting helps with.

[@MusicalInquisit]

You say this, and then I remember Welcome to Rosas (Wish), which has some interesting text setting.

[@WhitePaintbrush]

I’d argue the more obvious reason why text setting is more important for musical theatre is because lyrics are easier to understand if they follow a natural pattern of syllable stress. For a pop song, the listener not catching all the lyrics isn’t all that big a deal. For musical theatre it’s *crucial.* If a listener misheard a lyric, they might just have to go the next two hours having missed an important detail of the story.

[@hoikdini9263]

You've left out a key factor for vocal performance, namely the vowel quality. If the melody had stressed the 'di-' syllable, KP would have to change the short vowel a lot almost to 'dee' to not sound unpleasant, but uncondeetionally also could sound contrived. The 'tion' ('shun') syllable also has a short vowel 'uh' but that can be shaped closer to an 'ah' or 'oh' vowel, here she opens the vowel to 'ah' which allows her to comfortably hold the note with some light vibrato. The triplet leading to the high note also helps to sell the off-stress.

[@GalenDeGraf]

@@hoikdini9263 Absolutely, thinking about vowel quality is super important! It would definitely be something I‘d discuss if taking this beyond a short introduction!

[@williamlannhard8413]

Superb video! I always look forward to watching your content and learning something new

[@zacharygregg2841]

Gold video. For some reason the bands Novo Amor and Hailaiker really make me think of this concept. It feels like the vocal stress is a big part of consideration in how these songs are are written

[@gregoryhaddock5395]

This is a GREAT lesson‼️

[@Stratelier]

Wow, I guessed that _exact song_ even before starting the video! Strange how songs can enjoy popular success despite the weirdest things... the music video of Rick Astley's "Never Gonna Give You Up" was almost entirely improvised, Dragonforce broke a guitar string during "Through The Fire And Flames", etc.

[@ne0romantic]

It was way back in High School I watched Once Upon a Mattress live by other students and had the first of experience of not understanding the text due to cute/weird setting "sen-si-tiv-IT-y, sen-si-tiv-IT-y, I'm just load-ed with that..." I've noticed a lot a sense, usually coming at me from some piece of pop music, but when I said that once in collage, someone was moved to correct me "and in a lot a series music too" and pointed out some examples. Nowadays I don't like that distinction, but that's off topic. My point is I think the risk here is the audience literally misunderstanding the text, which is what happened to me in that High School rendition, even though I think Sensitivity might be the title of the song. In your video the text is on the screen. In life, on the first hearing comprehension can be harder; it's possible this adds difficulty.

[@althealligator1467]

7:12 I find "I will love you" way more awkward sounding than "unconditionally," probably because text setting matters more when the cadence of syllables is faster, but less when it is slow and the syllables are long.

[@althealligator1467]

0:44 but... it's not? All of those parameters also apply to spoken word. Lyrics and melody tend to sound awkward together when these parameters don't match in both.

[@GalenDeGraf]

You are absolutely right that language also relies on various forms of accent when speaking. Sometimes, in order to be clearer with one idea (in this case, about sung lyrics) I tend to simplify other concepts (like nuances of speaking). It's a delicate balance to be concise and clear without shortchanging something, but hopefully you didn't feel too shortchanged on that point!

[@althealligator1467]

@@GalenDeGraf No that's fair enough but I don't really see any reason why you'd go out of your way to say that music depends on various parameters when spoken language doesn't

[@GalenDeGraf]

@@althealligator1467 I suppose maybe we can recategorize this more cleanly than I did in the video. Perhaps the idea of "stress" or "emphasis" in language can be viewed in more basic terms prior to being sounded. Then perhaps speaking and singing are both aural manifestations of language and we can treat all those categories of accent I went through for both speaking or singing since it is all sounded language. In truth, I haven't thought too much about the spoken side of this because I was focused on the idea of composing songs, but maybe that's a starting point?

[@althealligator1467]

@@GalenDeGraf yes I agree

[@tricksunset2752]

King Gizzard And The Lizard Wizard has a lot of songs where the syllables don’t align with the meter. The albums Petrodragonic Apocalypse, The Silver Cord, and Butterfly 3000 have a lot of this.

[@benhansberry]

Just about to start a song project in fundamentals. Perfect timing, G

[@hoerange]

[SET] [U] [IN] [ME] 👀

[@happyron]

As someone who has gone to way to many open mikes, it's usually the biggest mistake beginning songwriters (including myself) make to not have the text set right. Usually, when I point this out to people they are amazed at how much better things sound. The first song on my first album had horrible text setting, but now when I play it I've "fixed it" kzbin.info/www/bejne/r3rNlYyKr7V1h5o

[@KenDavis761]

Hadn't heard it before - and at first run through it sounds weird and forced, and "love you" is all wrong as well. Obviously people got used to it. It would be interesting to split out the vocal, repitch and retime it to see how it would sound if you did it "proper". Maybe this is the best of a bunch of bad options, but if this were my song, I would try and find another way. And don't get me started on John Mellencamp's Real Life - which is a fabulous song - It's a lonely proposition when you realize That's there's less days in front of the horse Than riding in the back of this cart

[@Stratelier]

It's one of countless songs that appear in the rotation of retail music systems. And I agree, it could be an interesting project to devise a new chorus composition that matches the natural accent pattern of singing the lyrics ... I just wouldn't want to be the one to attempt it. This is one song that you could just play instrumentally and nobody would notice anything unusual about it at all.

[@EpicSenpaiCovers]

In the anime Bleach, there is an OST called Declaration of War. At the beginning of the OST, there are strings. Can you teach us how to do them? They are really difficult.

[@GalenDeGraf]

I‘ll give it a listen!

[@EpicSenpaiCovers]

@@GalenDeGraf thank you

[@snarf1504]

Assuming I found the track you're talking about - it sounds like it's just violins playing a marcato melody, with low strings, horns and drums (and later choir) adding to that military feel.

[@EpicSenpaiCovers]

@@snarf1504 Thanks I will try it

[@TruthSurge]

I've never heard the term "text setting". Do you mean.... the LYRICS? Seems you're trying to talk about WHERE the accents fall in words and how some singers have force-fitted words into song lyrics by ALTERING the NORMAL way people say the words. is that about right? Why not just say when a song's lyrics alter the syllable accents? or something more clear. Or is this a new term someone made up a few years ago to try and sound clever? I don't know but lyrics is pretty easy to understand. it's the words used in a song. 7:05 the POINT of the video. Can't we just call that bad songwriting and move on? Clearly, English speakers understand that most words have an accented syllable and ignoring that in song lyrics can sound goofy or stupid. It's been done countless times but most always they still sound goofy and wrong. But that Perry tune sounded way worse because 1) that vowel sound on 'tion' is just not a good vowel to be holding and 2) it's accenting, as you pointed out, an UNaccented syllable, which goes against anyone's concept of the word and 3) her voice is just annoying as hell in this. Sounds like she's yelling instead of singing. Just bad. She should either A) rewrite the lyric or B) rewrite the melody. Kind of glad I was born in the 60s so I don't know ANY Katy Perry songs!

[@hecksnek6158]

Text setting is the accepted academic term for setting text to music. It's more commonly applied to choral music than pop, but has been used for quite some time. In the case of western choral music, composers often used preexisting texts (usually from the bible or prayers), instead of original lyrics.

[@TruthSurge]

@@hecksnek6158 "Text setting is the accepted academic term for setting text to music." Oh. I had NO idea. I thought there already was a term for that called... songwriting. But I suppose it would be more of a challenge to SET a pre-existing text to some melody line even if you get to modify the melody to TRY and make sense of the text. Text setting sounds more like what people used to do with the old printing presses. Slap the metal letters in place for one page and spin out X number of pages then SET the letters for the next page. Well, you learn something new once in a while, it seems. thx

[@GalenDeGraf]

I‘ve actually been going back and forth about the terms "text setting" and "lyrics" for the title of the video. Text setting might be more precise and academic (and more common for choral music and composing with an existing text), but I think you‘re right that using "lyrics" might be the more widely understood term. I may toy with the title and see how it affects the algorithm. Thanks for your comments!

[@TruthSurge]

@@GalenDeGraf Yeah, I have an odd belief that if we don't need a new term, don't invent one. hahahah Like... "differently abled" instead of handicapped. The very meaning of the word is 100% true IF a person cannot do all that a "normal" person can. If a person cannot walk w/o a wheelchair or machine, they are handicapped. They have a deficiency. They MAY be crippled as we might understand the word (usually means some limb is not functioning at all or enough) but anyway, there are so many words and terms and there's almost no point in asking a dictionary. You'll find multiple pronunciations and meanings so... I am just thankful I'll be dead before all this implodes! :) imPLODES, not IMplodes. Thx for the replies!!!

[@Stratelier]

@@TruthSurge I know what it's like to see a term (which has been in use long enough to become entrenched) for the first time and think that it's not a bad _term,_ just a bad _name_ for it.