Why Super Counters Currently Suck (A Comprehensive)

[@mike4455]

New video is Out Now

[@Pixelhurricane]

I really hate the sparking zero vanish wars and how most interactions funnel into one eventually. I wish there were other options to mixup a vanish war, like being able to step back/to the side to dodge, grab out of vanish instead of strike, hold vanish to delay the vanish strike for mixing up your timing but with a small opening that could be punished, etc... Really just a couple of basic actions so my brain doesn't go into metronome mode for tapping a single button until one of us is out of ki. As it is I opt to lose a vanish war immediately if I'm lower ki since the winner gets a free ki charge so I don't want to be left with none when I inevitably get hit anyway, 'lose immediately and intentionally' seems like a bad optimal scenario for the mechanic imho

[@mike4455]

@@Pixelhurricane This is actually a good idea The timing for vanishes should be something we can mix up in real time. But the fact that they start so frequently is what makes them all annoying. This never occurred so frequently in BT3 The older iteration

[@RndmBad]

@@mike4455 Vanish wars absolutely happened in high skill play in BT3. Vanish wars is a game of chicken. sometimes it's best to not feed your opponent. Super Counter is not easy nor reliable to pull off frame perfect on openers, so it's really a tool used to help players against spammers and predictable players, as they don't delay or cut short combos or alternate smashes and other tools. stop letting people bait you into vanishing wars and play smarter. This is essentially arguing for cheaper, dumber brute force gameplay because.

[@mike4455]

@ Vanish wars do not happen how they happed in BT3, I literally have the disk sitting here in my ps2. Vanish wars were far shorter because vanish used so much Ki Also most characters could only do 2 vanishes or 2 dragon rushes and then it ends. Vanish wars are easy to bait in sparking zero Because the super counter input is 4 frames for the window and can be spammed because the lock out window is tiny compared to BT3. Even in high skill Play in BT3 to this day, Vanish wars dont even happen often because you can straight up avoid them, and supper counter was sooo hard to pull off in BT3 it wasn't something that even mattered. In this game its too accessible and leads to very dumb metas. Super counter isn't even needed in BT3 but in sparking zero they messed up the combo game so now i have to do a video to break down why.

[@RndmBad]

@@mike4455 Which is it, vanish wars didn't happen or they were shorter..? because I played BT3 at literally the highest level, 100% the entire game, every character unlocked every stage and side item. Yes Vanish wars did happen. Vanish wars were also the LEAST toxic issue of BT3. I don't know where you are getting this as super counters being something wildly different in BT3, the only real difference between the two is perception/sonic sway and combos break after 2 consecutive links. ALL of my muscle memory from BT3 transferred over and I am performing counters and vanishes properly when I slow down. Lastly, stay out of ranked matches. They are dumb and toxic and will be the death of this game. This game puts people's skill ceilings into perspective, and it makes you all butthurt. Maybe instead, just play with friends and enjoy the matches you have. As someone who has participated in high-ranked competitive PvP, if this is how you react to obstacles, this is not the space for you. You are too brittle.

[@mike4455]

@ Well it depends on what you're referring to. If Vanish wars means constant vanish battles during the entire match. No because human players high level or not found it way too difficult to pull off super counter (Grandmaster Hawk even says this) during strike combos. Vanish only occurred if One player wanted to do a vanish attack against another player but since dragon dash used the same amount if Ki Players opted to Dragon dash rather than vanish. And since super counter wasn't nearly as easy to pull in BT3 as it is in this game, Vanish battles during the match occured far less. And even when they did, they lasted much shorter because they consumed more KI than it does now.

[@superfarful]

Predecessor means it came before something, successor means it came after something

[@mike4455]

@@superfarful Yeah I'm aware Probably mixed them up

[@superfarful]

@mike4455 hell yeah dude

[@mike4455]

@ That being said. The precessor BT3 handled the combat mechanics better.

[@darrellm3628]

Been the way the connections are online it’s so difficult to time a vanish online. Doing vanishes and super counters offline is so easy compared to online. I do agree about the win my any means possible now that’s wack because I be trying to box lol

[@mike4455]

@@darrellm3628 Thats how i feel. Like whats the point of playing this game if you only wanna start a cutscene after going into insta sparking after only 40 seconds to win the match. It's just sick This generation is cooked.

[@darrellm3628]

@ bro cooked the generation 😂

[@icarusablaze1831]

6:29 So true. The lack of an actual community is what's making the online so sweaty and awful. Raging Blast had some cheesy mechanics too, like being able to just rise out of your opponents mixups, but I felt like the communities were more tight-knit back then, so they would call you out immediately for tactics like that and word would get around quickly who the problem players were. It was great, and it allowed me to understand the game beyond the surface level cheese.

[@mike4455]

@@icarusablaze1831 You are so right about the content creators Bro, they forget they have massive audiences and then will make a video called "I'm using Broly cause he's Broken" Ki spam cheese and laugh, say they should fix the game, and give their audience a blueprint on how to cheese.

[@OreallyR17]

Super Counter shouldn't be usable on back shots Give that function to Revenge Counters instead. As of right now, there's no reason to use Revenge Counters. It will make protecting your back extremely important, as you either have to eat the full combo or spend gauge to escape it. But that also allows the attack to read the revenge counter and counter it with perception. Super Countering a Super Counter should put both plays in a clash minigame. The third vanish in a chain (P1 Attack, P2 Vanish, P1 Vanish, P2 Vanish) should result in a clash minigame. It feels like every time we get to that point in the vanish war, we're both locked in and there's no way out. Bring back Ki sickness. I think those changes would fix a lot of the current issues. I'd go a bit further, like give Sparking Mode a stacking debuff, make all ultimates unblockable and harder to avoid at a distance. Blockable ultimates are pathetic, I shouldn't be able to just sit there and take like 1% of it's damage. And there's not enough incentive to clash beam attacks. It's far easier to dodge then use your own.

[@mike4455]

@@OreallyR17 yes and a little bit of know. I'll make a part two

[@mike4455]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y3fVq2hqqtudm68si=Y3W7mW_xhotVtG31

[@rev9436]

Completely agree

[@hifye1738]

Perfect world scenario would be if they gave us rollback net code with a super counter nerf (lock out on missed attempts so you can’t spam it)

[@mike4455]

@@hifye1738 Bro. Rollback would be godly for this game. Especially because everything on defense is reaction based. Stable connection is a must

[@Gholian-g3i]

In bt3, I remember thinking of combos in my head that could do the most damage. Now, I try the fastest, shortest, and most unpredictable combos only due to super counters.

[@mike4455]

@@Gholian-g3i Exactly and it takes really no skill to do during rush combos. It takes away from some really cool combo set ups and some flashy stuff, simply because there is no point in trying.. It will end by a super counter

[@dhayris160]

Spitting straight FACTS.

[@draiocht1979]

Yea I agree I’ll be mid combo and they spam super counter and perception and genuinely cannot fight any other way- I fought a guy who just super counters and hold perception all I did was grab and they lost

[@Ghost-jq4ey]

do a video on perception next

[@mike4455]

@@Ghost-jq4ey And why its so unnecessary lol

[@GarzaTheFather]

@@mike4455he probably wants you to talk about how perception is broken but it really isn’t it’s pretty balanced. My biggest issue which does tie in to your video is that you just get stock/skill counts way too fast in the game without items. You’re right the fact that we go sparking about not even a minute in the match I don’t mind the game being unbalanced, but I do think the game matches shouldn’t be so fast, especially 1v1 play. I think the best way to nerf this is after the vanish or super counter, slow down the skill counter until after the wars is over

[@mike4455]

@@GarzaTheFather I agree with him. My statement was an add on to his. Like "Make a video on Perception and why its so unnecessary" I don't think the video is unnecessary lol I'll make it

[@GarzaTheFather]

@@mike4455 unnecessary in what sense? It depletes your opponents ki. In a ki based meta that’s hella useful not only that’s all anybody spams in b5 and higher

[@mike4455]

@ Sonic sway depletes ki and it's very necessary as a precog But perception is annoying because when a person reads your perception (failed precog) and uses a smash attack it uses the skill count that recharges stupidly fast and acts as a counter anyway. And the only counter to that is to go around someone or hit them from behind. Which is very hard to do against characters with high defensive recovery time. Sonic sway good Perception wasn't necessary we already have revenge counter.

[@Pack52022]

This game is fun as shit when players have some honor. If that makes sense considering how cheesy players can be

[@mike4455]

@@Pack52022 The game is extremely fun At it's core the mechanics are fire.. It's just sad that changed certain things that balanced the game and made it worse.

[@thomas-stilinski8149]

The super counter is easily my least favorite thing about this game it feels so inconsistent to pull off in my personal experience at least

[@mike4455]

@@thomas-stilinski8149 Yup and sadly one of the biggest issues with the game. But not the half of it

[@xx4444xxDOTexe]

Content creators are the cause of these poor playstyles. Everyone wants to be the next big creator so everyone just plays like a dick to get a high rank and communities optimize the fun out of every game they touch trying to be cool. Fighting games, fps games, all of it. Im not saying making content is bad but the unintended consequence of content creations popularity is the sweaty jobless wannabes sucking the fun out of everything and making winning in a game their life. And every game needing to have a "meta" too. Nobody will just pick a character they like and have fun it all has to be so mf sweaty.

[@brandonsupreme8380]

You right

[@Not_obligated2care]

Bruh if they’re jobless how would they even get the game? 💀 I mean unless their parents buy it as a Christmas present or something that’s understandable but from what I’ve seen lots of people able to buy it with their own money.

[@AnriDarkmoor]

It's hard for me to tell if the first guy was spamming it or not so I'd hate to assume, how can you tell? That barrage was equally timed between punches, it's easy to read and I think that's one of the issues the game has. Another problem is that you got characters whois barrage of attacks are super fast, increasing the frequency you're hit which also makes just timing it easy without having to think, no spamming is necessary for either scenario. But even if he was spamming up + square, I get that's an issue as well. I really hope they do something because last time I was into DB was Raging Blast 1, and I had made tons of friends and had fun with that. We had quarrels at times, that game obviously had cheese due to the way customization was handled, but it took more skill than SZ did even with the BS pieces people used in their tetris loadouts 🤣. I really love SZ, but I stopped playing it two weeks ago. Hopefully they try to balance it, but with how previous DB games were I find it doubtful they'll do it to an acceptable extent. Otherwise guess I just need to find a group of friends to play with again and just have fun.

[@mike4455]

@@AnriDarkmoor I'll probably explain in part two lol

[@hbombz0093]

I hate perception ppl spam that so much especially if the character has after image strike

[@mike4455]

@@hbombz0093 Thanks for reminding me of another mechanic not needed in this game😂.. I swear they did all this for casuals in mind

[@palodani5821]

Yeah, that's the thing, this game isnt competitive ​@@mike4455

[@Whiteobamas]

press triangle, you beat it. its really that easy

[@Jorasaurus]

Sssskill issue

[@mike4455]

If only

[@Mavuika_Gyaru]

Super counter into vanish wars is so annoying. Cus then you get a bunch of bars, instant spark, then spam ki blasts

[@tankdgamer]

Super counter does not cause vanish wars in fact vanish wars is caused by both players using a high speed movement attack one after another. if you super countered your opponent back instead of doing a high speed evasion, you would have been locked into a counter war where you have the choice to super counter which takes a higher level of skill to keep up that doesn't drain resources and feels more intense and rewarding or use high speed evasion. As soon as both players use a high speed evasion is when you both lock into a vanish war where you can press anything besides the z vanish for most characters anyways. feel most people complain about super counters because they rely too much on high speed evasions for when their opponent super counters them thus leading to a vanish war. As most players who initiate z vanish wars had no intention using this as an advantage of draining your opponents ki but because they found it an easier mechanic to pull off which is high speed evasion. so it's not that super counters suck but the mentality of the players that opt the decision of using high speed evasion when they had no intention of duking out a z vanish war in the first place, making it more of a skill level/ decision making issue of the player.

[@tankdgamer]

kzbin.info7u83ULZv-Yw an example of super counters not causing a z vanish war

[@tankdgamer]

kzbin.info7u83ULZv-Yw notice how super counters did not increase my skill stock recovery speed, drain my ki or even start a vanish war. its the players abusing high speed movement causing the issues you are complaining about.

[@tankdgamer]

i can't link in the comment but i have a 10 second video in my 'shorts' named "y'all really want to nerf super counters" you can check out so you can see for yourself that super counter doesn't 1. doesn't cause skill stock recovery increase 2. doesn't drain your ki 3. lock you into a vanish war

[@mike4455]

@@tankdgamer I agree with your mentality. But ill explain why this could lead to issues in the next video