Why TAZ Graduation isn't TAZ Balance - Overthoughts

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Heyo! This is mostly a video detailing my thoughts on how The Adventure Zone Graduation's storytelling mistakes are kinda the same as the ones I have made with my dnd podcast's storytelling.
A couple of things I couldn't put into this video:
All the other storytelling similarities like, uh, focusing on one player character, focusing on NPC stories and storylines, only focusing on the DMs story. Basically didn't want to distract from talking about TAZ grad by focusing on my own shit too much.
I released this episode to patrons on patreon 4/11/21 expecting them to get some time with it before the public saw it, but turns out TAZ Grad was going to finish way sooner than i thought as I write this on 4/15. So I'm releasing it now!
As I release this there's been way more info that I've found and way more things I wanted to say but the video has become so long and it's already finished and well, shoot I can't believe TAZ Grad had it's finale so fast! Anyways this article from the beginning of the campaign says a lot of good shit
thegeekiary.com/the-adventure...
Philosophilse this is a good philosophy podcast, but the first episodes are from like 2013 so they do make dated references, and it's from the perspective of a middle aged man so take that with a grain of salt. Still good!
I really need to do an episode on DND podcasting in more depth hot damn.
Also this vtuber model was made by me, intro and ending music made by me too.
#theadventurezone #dndpodcast #TAZgraduation

[@Ecto_42]

Small Correction. The Knights of Good Castle and Clyde Nite's Night Knight School are two separate entities. The Knights of Good Castle seemed like a scam and was very much written to be a scam joke. Clyde Nite's Night Knight School was a real school that Fitzroy attended and left because of his dangerous chaos magic.

[@Cosmine]

Ah, yes ok, I was very confused on that. I remember the school he attended and got those confused. But yeah Good Castle were the knights that deus ex'd into the battle and Clyd Nite's Night Knight School was the one with the credits!

[@ThatOneIrishFurry]

@@Cosmine travis even joked about this in one of the final episodes saying something like "these are good castles 3 best knights: Dues Ex And Machina"

[@ThatOneIrishFurry]

I enjoyed TAZ grad alot but i always found it out that the story was set up as "the hero and villan system set up by the heroic oversight guild is corrupt" And then it quickly morphed into "We gotta fight this big hell demon now" And then ended as "The hell demon was actually controlled by the physical manifestations of chaos and order and we gotta fight them to stop the world being destroyed"

[@Cosmine]

Yeaaaaaaaaaah that plot sure did veer off there huh. That's something I missed for sure!

[@ThatOneIrishFurry]

@@Cosmine its something i didn't realize until watching this video made me think back on grad with a more critical look

[@stumble_arcana]

So sad TAZ:Dust never got mentioned, especially because it shows how *great* of a DM Travis can be!!

[@CakefoxDots]

Out of all the mini arcs, it was definitely my favourite. The ending where the answer to the mystery was basically handed to them was the only thing I didnt like. The rest, the story, the characters, the control and interactions: All brilliant. Hopefully Travis gets another chance, since he really is inexperienced and this was his first proper campaign and he’ll have learned.

[@nerdynoah]

I think you're spot on with a lot of the stuff about railroading, but I think there are two big things guiding Travis that you overlooked: 1) Griffin having a kid might have moved the timelines up and forced this to wrap up a bit quicker. I think a lot of the late arc decisions were rushed because they needed to wrap up in X sessions and not because that was the natural pace of things. 2) I think Travis does something that a lot of creatives who come from comedy do - they get nervous that their big dramatic ideas are not going over well, so they go back and undercut it with a joke, and it doesn't really work as a dramatic arc or a well constructed joke. He definitely needs some more experience, but I think more than that he needs everyone involved to say what tone they envision for their characters and let that drive the campaign.

[@maybenot4609]

I watched this while writing the finale for a genuine year and a half long level 1-20 campaign that i've largely written from scratch for my immediate family, and you nailed so many of the things i've found myself disappointed in about my own work that I'm trying to get better about. I appreciate your insights and your humor, and I think it's very valuable that you're willing to look at your own work and make the hard choice of recognizing where things didn't go well. Thank you for continuing to make things that make my brain work and make me happy!

[@justabrd]

You made a ton of good points, but I really appreciate how you emphasize empathy, that even though might think he didn't do a great job, you've gotta remember we've all been there

[@justabrd]

I totally agree, I pretty often found myself disappointed with Graduation. The best parts of each episode were the endings and beginnings because those are the moments where Travis is reading his monologues, fully in control of his story

[@Camila-cd7xe]

YEP YEP YEP the dm's hand is EVERYWHERE in Graduation :( and it's hard for the listener to have fun when the players don't seem invested enough or feel like their decisions don't matter. ALSO I feel that a big problem with Graduation is the organization: Taz Balance could've been a mess of chaotic energy, but it wasn't bc of the small arcs that gave goals that once accomplished helped the Arc as a whole. Meanwhile Graduation feels disorganized in a non-chaotic nor fun way, it's just a mess of plans that when they differed from the dm's vision the next episode would create something new to stop the characters from going a different root. So it ends up feeling as if the players were being dragged through a certain path rather than advancing in the plot themselves their way.

[@Cosmine]

Oh definitely! TAZ Balance had a lot more structure with finding the grand relics. DND games don't have to have structure to be good, but it helps A Lot with DND games that are meant to tell a story in some way. An unstructured game can lend itself to a lot of creative endings if it's just the players deciding where to go next, but well, that is not the case with TAZ Grad.

[@seffdog3287]

Great video I'm glad someone made a video about TAZ graduation because I've been feeling the same way to.

[@AJLikesCats]

Yup, pretty much. Good vid! On the subject of rolls, I did feel like some of the time Trav was getting them to roll for something he wanted to happen, and then justifying how that number was high enough afterwards. No proof of this, just a feeling I remember having a couple times. Makes me think that if I ever DM, I should make sure to have a good reason for setting a DC and sticking to it.

[@sydneyschmidt4267]

I like the u had a 3D avatar you used in this vid! Great idea and made it more fun to watch!

[@geekcatsunited4527]

Yesss give thrilling intent the recognition it deserves

[@cobaltblu4196]

I mean... most of that "limiting their choices" is also a "problem" that happens in Balance. they are forced by plot to join the Bureau of Balance, they are forced to collect the artifacts, they are forced along a narrative path. "they have made the mistakes I have made" yeah. Travis who is normally a pretty power heavy player is a first time DM who is not only thrusted into being a DM but being thrusted into being a DM for a well known real play series like TAZ, and so he tries to DM like late balance Griffin. which is also what Griffin stated was the problem with TAZ amnesty. but let's not forget that during all this. the TAZ subreddit had completely turned on them. and another Subreddit TAZ Circlejerk was made. Travis who has mentioned having issues with mental health not only had to deal with "dang this DM stuff is hard" but also a majority of fans. turning on him, and SOLELY him. Travis has now mentioned that He doesn't like being a DM. and it's plain to see. however I think people judged him way too much on this game, the players had fun and enjoyed their time, but the viewers didn't care. they wanted TAZ balance. and couldn't settle for less. I mean I know I railroaded my players the first time I was a DM and made a cool monster, they were suppose to follow the raging river to a pristine pond and fight it there. but they used a magic broom to fly over it. and I punished my players for doing that because I put a lot of work into that monster damnit and you're going to fight it!. so a giant wave would reach as high as they flew to knock them down. I'm not proud of that moment. but now imagining that happening in a well known and beloved series like TAZ... I couldn't even imagine it.

[@altdelet3778]

Title should be 'Why Balance and Amnesty are the best arcs'

[@pjtiger10]

All of their actual plays are like this and it makes me sad because all of the role players have good ideas that get shot down

[@drskelebone]

@6:20 I fell into becoming the """""main character""""" by the fact that I stuck with my crazy death priestess while everyone else tried on a bunch of new characters. She is the Chosen One, because she's essentially kept the campaign on the rails. "I want to solve this problem!" New Character A says. "Fine, but we must first find and kill the Scion of Fire, who will bring destruction to the Pleasant Hills" (I'm paraphrasing a lot). @7:52 We have a lot of NPCs. I'm "that kind of person", so I opened up google sheets and started organizing our people/places/goals/treasure and in the last month or so, our actual session notes. @9:26 That's basically how I pronounce that word. I assume if I got it wrong, I'd get pounded into the ground (to death), and my next character would get the word right. :D @11:58 I once lost an entire campaign because I wanted everyone to take two months to train to get new proficiencies (2e). I wanted some time to reset things, move some villains to new domains, and space things out, and was met with such "this is awful that we can't just improve immediately, and this prevents my character from achieving their glory!" that we just stopped playing. DM vs player expectations can differ so so so so much. @16:46 I... just really love Travis, and I know you probably do too. I just want to put this down here because I don't listen to TAZ as much as I feel I should, and I can't argue against this, so I just want to totally assert that Travis is a delight of a human and I can ask nothing more of him. @17:06 This is why I will try as hard as possible not to DM ever again. I write a story, but my brain and the character brain is always so different, that the solution paths are different, and I can't rectify them. If I did do it again, I'd try to make everything as multipath as I could, so close solutions would get a good result. @24:43 Now that's a name I've not heard in a long time. A long time. Can you link to the other D&D podcast? I'm interested in listening (although my podcast time isn't great due to the *world right now*).

[@drskelebone]

sorry for rambling. >_

[@Cosmine]

It's all good! Thanks for the long comment! And you should try DMing again one day, its just like writing a story, but the main characters are written for you! I'll be making more dnd videos in the future, hopefully something that can give you some good insight into a good way to have a game. Basically, so long as the your players are the ones making the choices that cause the big changes in the world, I think it'll turn out ok! And I regrettably don't have any dnd podcasts to recommend since I don't listen to that many, there's so many! I'm currently making my way through Dimension 20's campaigns, like Unsleeping City, and I definitely recommend that! But I just do not have the time to invest into searching for a new dnd podcast to dive into at the moment.

[@CakefoxDots]

Very good video, keep it up!!

[@ThatOneIrishFurry]

I'm watching this before i have watched the full video so apologies if you mention this but i think another reason that no TAZ can truely live up to balance is that balance is like 75 hours or so in total What're as grad and amnesty are more around the 30 hour mark Thats more than double the content for games that people see in the same light!

[@jeffjeff24]

Great vid, but i have some issues with the audio. It was a bit unpleasant to listen to sometimes bc of sudden loud spikes or breathing stuff. Not egregious, but noticable. Don't know enough about sound to offer remedies sadly, so just have a nice day!

[@Cosmine]

That's an issue with compression, I've been having issues with my mic clipping when I get too loud and it's something that can't be edited out. Gotta get a new better mic. There's some moments where the audio stutters and that's due to the recording process I have since I record audio and visuals all at once using some programs, sometimes it doesn't work the best and chops up the audio weirdly, I'd just have to rerecord those parts, but I didn't. Yeah, but I'm glad you mentioned this cause now I know it's not just me noticing these things.

[@jonnycampbell5623]

Theory: Taz Graduation isn't finished, their inner potential wasn't awakened, and they're all still in a major drug trip 😂

[@jonnycampbell5623]

Wait what if Travis had hoped Griffin would've chosen Chaos initially on their offer of power prior to confronting order in order to then rebel against 'the plot' 🤔 I definitely feel similarly about Graduation, that said, I'm guessing Travis couldn't bring himself to hurt/put his family in danger :)

[@tegandumpleton3360]

I know exactly why I've had trouble with TAZ: Grad: The setting I just cannot get into stories that take place at school. Ive tried. I cant get into Fantasy High or even harry potter. Grad became SO much more enjoyable when school took a back seat.

[@harrywater456]

Right? School is such a structured and confining place that it requires complete control (like authorial intent) to tell a good story, which makes playing dnd super unfun

[@piercejohnson6191]

I was searching for the season 4 trailer music and stumbled across your video and at first I felt a little off put bc I want to like graduation and feel like it's great but at the end of the day a lot of the criticisms you made are things that can't be ignored and actually ended up being detrimental to the story. With that being said, the problem here is that at this moment I don't think we fans have any great way to relay questions or criticisms to the guys, other than the adventure zone zone which more often than not doesn't really do anything to deter further story goofs. I think it would behoov them to do a taz zone at the conclusion of every arc or so or have the GM and at least one other player stream a Q and A maybe. Otherwise we're all just making videos about or tweeting our criticisms and they go overlooked. And I don't say that to mean that we shouldn't be making videos or tweeting I mean that as serious content creators they should be providing their fans with a more focused platform to voice concerns.

[@Cosmine]

To be honest, I didn't think this video would ever reach the mcelroys, so I didn't really make it to bring up these concerns to them. I think Twitter is one way to bring these concerns up, but I can imagine that would get overwhelming very fast for them. I think it might be best to leave things as they are as episodes come out, just the fact that an episode did not get as much attention as others may be the indication they need to look into things.

[@dusktomidnight7207]

I think the fans attacking Travis made me the most sad Travis has said he has adhd witch explains a lot and everyone especially Reddit

[@cursedpotato4470]

But grad was still fun as hell tho