Why the Brain Does Not Cause Conscious Experience

Cognitive scientist Donald D. Hoffman discusses why neural correlates of consciousness do not cause consciousness.
This is an excerpt from “Reality Is Not As It Seems“ recorded on February 7, 2019 at The New York Academy of Sciences. For the video of the complete discussion, see: • Reality Is Not As It S...

[@codyhenrichs9699]

Having out of body experiences all my life has shown me my brain is not where my consciousness comes from.

[@claytonthomas5510]

Can't wait for the Aware study 2 to finally settle the debate of Mind= brain or Mind > Brain. If it is successful then it will be the end of materialism and be one of the biggest scientific discoveries yet

[@alkeryn1700]

aware II is nice but not sufficient, they look at heart stopping but not conscious experience when the brain also has stopped.

[@gure1686]

​@@alkeryn1700when brain shut down how could dead brain experience even brain dead

[@threestars2164]

Or the end of superstition which you obviously are a supporter of.

[@themindfuldj320]

“The old adage ‘correlation doesn’t imply causation’”- something I’ve been saying for a long time in regard to scientists will use the argument that what happens to the brain impacts consciousness and therefore consciousness is caused by the brain. just because damage to a radio affects the sound and signal doesn’t mean that signal or sound is actually produced or originates from the radio. Very few agree with him I suspect because he challenges the fundamental assumptions that other scientists are unwilling to let go of, namely that space, time and particles, or matter comes first. But our immediate experience before we assume any of this is the experience of consciousness. Why don’t we start there. This is what Rupert Spira in his consciousness only model has been saying for a long time which is the position of non dual philosophy. Let’s start without any conceptual assumptions, let’s start with what we directly experience. But I suspect that scientists letting go of materialism as the foundation is akin to the religious person letting go of their belief in God. 🙏🏻

[@krisc6216]

You can make an apple pie if you combine the right ingredients, but as Carl Sagan once said: "if you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". Some scientists believe that one day we will be able to create consciousness artificially. If that day comes, I will be the first to say: "look what you have proven: it takes an intelligent agent to create consciousness", but this will never happen, because consciousness is indeed prior and fundamental.

[@joshc7865]

What makes more sense, matter creates mind, or mind creates matter?

[@StephJ0seph]

How about neither?

[@nahCmeR]

Neither. Consciousness is eternal, always has been here always will be. Its outside of this universe/reality our physical bodies live in.

[@lestahass8849]

To be honest neither 😂😂

[@ryanashfyre464]

At the very least, the idea of matter creating mind isn't just wrong, it's self-contradictory even on its own terms. What does materialism define matter as? Specifically, it says that matter is that which is without quality - which is to say it feels nothing and has no experience. Therefore it's frankly absurd to turn around and try to argue that if we just have enough matter coming together in complex enough ways it'll somehow magically create that which it fundamentally is not. You can't have your ontological cake and eat it too. Either matter has no qualities or it does. Pick a lane, but you can't have both.

[@shivoham5939]

@@nahCmeR I appreciate .live your life fullest. Help others ,meditate, live the moment ☺️☺️

[@StephJ0seph]

I don't understand how blind people can be? If you just took a moment to observe everything around you-- you would find the common link between everything-- which is variations of consciousness. The only thing I'm not sure of is what that even means...

[@AndrewUnruh]

After thinking about it for the better part of a year, my *GUESS* is that the brain presents information to what we call our consciousness. In other words, the brain totally controls what we are conscious of but that the brain itself is not conscious itself. I think a lot of people conflate what one is conscious of with the property of being conscious. I also think that consciousness is not necessary for evolution. In fact, I would say that consciousness itself has no agency - it cannot affect anything. A human being with a properly functional brain but no consciousness would be indistinguishable from one with consciousness. That consciousness has no agency but it so utterly pervasive would totally explain why we have failed to directly measure it. Think of consciousness as a particle that has no interactions with any other particle. From the outside, you would have no way of measuring it. In fact, for all we know, such particles exist. I think that when it comes down to it, the ONLY reason we know that consciousness exists is because we experience it. So, if the brain is not responsible for consciousness, why do we seem to lose consciousness during deep sleep or anesthesia? I would argue it is because the brain is no longer presenting anything to the consciousness to be conscious of. Think of it as an old film video camera. If you develop unexposed film, you get black. So to if you shoot the film in a totally dark room. The fact that the film is black does not imply, in this case, that the camera wasn't recording only that there was nothing to record.

[@yourcommander3412]

Would be interesting that we *as a species* are actually in pods sending a a message to brains / receivers ,antennas. Interacting like characters in a video game. Death would be the way to disconnect from this character. But if this is the case - do we get purged / removed from the "gamer seat" and why are we being put back in the game ? Now , ignoring how insane this sounds to mainline "realism" assertions. Removal of the *knowledge* that we are being simulated it can only mean we are in some sort of "alien" prison being simulated either for something we done or the alien force wants our collective simulation power to learn something ? Of course that would make us very easy to hurt / basically a person sleeping. Could you imagine *seeing* for the first time ? Of course not :) Honestly it just leads to more questions.

[@footballfactory8797]

I think this is actually true but it’s god playing all the characters, I.e the lonely god theory

[@yourkingdomcomeyourwillbedone]

Who are you? What if you aren't even the mind, brain or body at the deepest level?

[@SamA-nj7yr]

God.

[@moesypittounikos]

Imagine how genius Kurt Godel sounded! Hoffman is indeed a genius but rationality will never grasp😮

[@willbrink]

Non local consciousness is not beholden to Spacetime and its own dimension.

[@rogerjohnson2562]

I understand that there is more neural activity in the brain than sensory input, and that is what comprises conscious experience, but why then say the brain doesn't cause it.

[@tlafleur8433]

The universe itself is conscious. He's correct to state that conciousness is fundamental. It's the ground for all things.

[@threestars2164]

Obviously nonsense

[@vincedgarvlogs]

The brain only sends the processed stimulus to the consciousness.

[@threestars2164]

Gibberish

[@bonniedavis9076]

God says he gives us what we want. So all our experiences are a collective. Makes sense man can do anything he can imagine. We have higher energies that influence us. Are our true selves somewhere else protected from this physicality? 🤔😅

[@lovelightawakening350]

What a shame that people of stature cause there ideologies and theories to influence the precipice of intelligent thinking based on righteousness of cause, however not right ot wrong until the truth presents itself truthfully knowing you maybe right or wrong is the journey of humanity, conciousness is the atomic essence that animates and ellaborates the material being as a density of compatibility to intelligently exist with a soul allowing the separation of the mind body and soul to co exist as a single entity, thought is the mind however its energetic therefore influenced by conciousness which is our higher self the parts of the unawakened mind and spirit or physical and metaphysical presence that has not yet been accessed by the current being. This is short but the fundamental aspect of our being is that conciousness is created internally and externally as our electromagnetic fields protrude intelligent knowledge growing and developing or evolving simultaneously continuously. I could explain technically more in depth however the journey to this knowledge is therefore not yet a destined manifest of the thought therefore until they stop searching outside of themselves for an answer and look within which is not easy the enlightened knowledge will present itself accordingly to the level of which it could be understood. However interesting thought processes, i hope this helps in the understanding of your journey. Peace...

[@anebeejohn5268]

Conscius=feelings-love,forgivness etc,conscius produce light,conscius=soul.

[@Astrophile2345]

Brain generates consciousness and stating other way around doesn't makes sense at all, like litterally 🙂. I am pretty sure consciousness wouldn't have needed a brain to render it, if it is something beyond the physical world 🙃.

[@BillJoslin]

not a different type of approach - its the presumption of teleology which demands consciousness to be fundamental. this sets up a circular argument that can't be falsified i.e. pseudoscience

[@gehtdichnixan4704]

He specifically asked for people to disprove his theory.

[@daniellahner2675]

Where does it demand that Consciousness be fundamental? You just made that up. Anyways you were born right? You're here today right? You have a memory right? Where does your consciousness go after you die since it clearly lives on because you are here today right? Consciousness is Fundamental because its logic. Logic dictates that Consciousness created the Universe and not the other way around. You just want to deny God's existence because you feel smarter that way.

[@businessmanager7670]

@@daniellahner2675 you are the one who is less smarter because you believe In Fairy tales without evidence. you have no evidence of God. so what are you blabbering about? your assumption that God exists will only remain an assumption or opinion until you provide evidence

[@ikhlashasib8256]

@@daniellahner2675 They will forever deny God, they'll even deny their logic and rationality to deny God it goes that deep

[@shivoham5939]

@Bill joslin if consciousnessd doesn't exist you are just piece of meat 😂😂

[@tedbishop]

The brain is the only part of the human body that is conscious

[@strappymasksalesman2819]

the brain experiences consciousness, which is connected to the rest of the body

[@SimplifiedTruth]

The radio is the only part of my house that plays the music being broadcast.

[@richardshane456]

You think or know? I believe our whole body is a consciousness of reality, I think I don't really know...

[@dripgodxxx3515]

Location doesn’t equal causation...beats me

[@tbardoni5065]

Paramecia don’t have brains and yet are seemingly conscious. They can actively seek out food, actively seek out a sex partner, and yes, they can even learn (continually suck one up in a syringe and it learns to escape faster and faster.)

[@georgegrubbs2966]

He is correct about “reality” and wrong about consciousness. Consciousness is not fundamental. He said he is probably wrong. He is wrong.

[@FranciscoGomez-kp7pd]

Sure. We'll see how this debate evolves in the coming years.

[@ahhhsothisishowyouchangean162]

Wait correct me if I am wrong like organisms without a brain on evolutionary terms, sponges. They can live probably without any consciousness but simply by instinct and their ability to utilize their environment. So consciousness is not fundamental instead, probably an illusion given by the brain to survive. Like evolving to see the reality as reality, to perceive different stimulants and understand it individually is possible but doesn’t work. Just like immortality, billions of years of evolution life definitely has a route for immortality, but is it in the best interest of survival? Conscious is imo an illusion of what we perceived grouped together and modified by our brain as reactions to our surrounding. But because of this illusion, being able to understand it on scientific terms is difficult because we are fundamentally fooled to survive. And human with high intelligence gained rhetoric, and this forth created cultures. The exchange of it and exchange of ideas of perceptions are a slow build up of what we know and our brain utilizes the message, although complicated. More experiments and more discoveries may or may not solve the mystery of this matter.

[@myscat]

I really doubt it is not. Just logically speaking, reality and consciousness are probably the same thing due to their unified nature. I don't think there is any other unified object other than the totality of existence. There are at least 4 abstract objects that seem have such a property, which are the "void", the "presence of everything", a "conscious presence" and a complete description of everything possible through "generalized mathematics" (it would have to include the properties and/or operations on qualia, which don't seem to simplify to anything at least for me). All those 4 objects (I believe it is possible to make up much more, if you include for example religious entities, but most of them would be similar to what I mentioned here) have to be the same due to their complete and unified nature. Our perception makes them appear different or even very different to us, but I see no reason why they should or could possibly be. Of course you would have to accept that there exists such thing as a "totality of existence" or "presence of everything". There could be an issue with that, just like with a set of all sets. But I believe it makes sense to presume a certain global reality, not necessarily working within set theory. I cannot see any reason why there shouldn't be such a thing, even if it is infinite beyond comprehension, but this is also not provable so this is based on my intuition. Such a complete object would include in itself all imaginable and non-imaginable qualia and properties, including consciousness (here we have to assume consciousness exists, but I believe we can say that from our personal point of view, because it is the only one that we really have, so I will accept this as a truth). That would make the totality of existence conscious, and thus having a unified conscious experience itself. Now the most unintuitive part is to say that the unified consciousness is equivalent to our consciousness. Why wouldn't many various consciousness be possible? In fact, how we can say that it is unique if at least all humans in the world supposedly have it (unless you say you are the only real person but I can't really take this point of view seriously because all humans seem very similar to each other, which of course doesn't prove anything, but enough for me to ignore this idea)? Well, let's say there are actually many different consciousnesses. A consciousness would include at least a simple awareness, and then based on definition it could also include the current state of how we are, memories, emotions, etc. So my current consciousness would be a pick from an infinite set of possibilities. Why this particular this one? In fact, how would something random would be picked out of infinite? This actually is an issue, because if we want to pick a random consciousness out of all possibilities, and pick one, it instantly becomes special. And yet, within the "totality of existence" there is nothing truly special other than itself. After all, it is already complete and all pieces of puzzle are put together, no piece would be completely new or with some special properties, as they are all already included and there is an infinity of pieces with any properties we would want. So picking anything makes it special, and thus equivalent to the entirety of options. Now what about me, the special me, who has the unified view of the world? There is no way for a unified consciousness to choose a part, randomly, intentionally, or by doing anything else because it is complete. And if something could be picked, it would always be the same thing, just in a different representation. Thus I argue that I have to be the unified consciousness itself, just as every other human, animal, or other conscious entity. But how exactly our experience in our life represents the truth of existence is obviously a harder question, just like how a void which is also unified is equivalent to all other interpretations of reality. This probably has something to do with the fact that consciousness as awareness is unified, but consciousness as experience is dual, and the nature of this duality is really hard to grasp. I will still keep thinking about all of that, because I believe that the truth is real in our lives.

[@MikePattison]

Can you post your sources on debunking him, or are you just talking out your ass?

[@sarshanden8033]

Because georgegrubbs from youtube knows better. Ya he's wrong.

[@threestars2164]

hahahahahahahahaha Why don't you show someone whose brain has been removed having a conscious experience?