Why Throws were "Cheap"

[@ividboy7616]

People now: "Man I wish fighting games were more neutral based, like sf2 back in the day!" sf2:

[@sentienceRemains]

Sf2 is all about neutral tf you sayin

[@HanDaimond]

@@sentienceRemains He's saying that wishing for a more neutral based fighting game comes with consequences, very cheap consequences.

[@multechpro7151]

@@sentienceRemains it was actually, but the neutral itself was damn cheap, and unless u played sf2 u wont understand that

[@bluefalcon6356]

Yeah, people want neutral until they actually play sf2. Its neutral but it hurts, mad cheap.

[@user-nu2er3je6c]

everybody gangsta till they get throwlopped into a safejump tick throw setup that can bait dps

[@trashtoast7007]

"You still can't force someone to learn" *Distant fleeting memories of Justin Wong's Voice play in my head, reminding me "You gon' learn today"*

[@thestanman1486]

"no no you're cheating"

[@trashtoast7007]

@@thestanman1486 THIS IS THE REAL WORLD, YOU GON' LEARN TODAY

[@trashtoast7007]

@asdf asdf He learned...

[@kylenguyen7371]

JWong vs AsianLamb, MKX

[@Godzillafan1980]

My bison or balrog use to whip ALL the ASS then and still does now ... I'll take you ALL

[@Rocketknightgeek]

I know it's a single player thing but cpu hold throws were incredibly brutal back in the day. The fact that cpu Dahlsim could murder you in one close range noogie probably gave a lot of casual players a predisposition to hating throws.

[@Ramsey276one]

I saw THAT back then and was like O_O How do you do that?!

[@bagsikdangal]

Computer always cheats in SF2. Guile walking and suddenly doing a flash kick. Computer does huge damage in throws that require mashing buttons. There's a video here that actually shows the computer is cheating😂

[@DoKDelta]

YOGA YOGA YOGA YOGA YOGA

[@persona83]

SF2 FIRST GOLDEN RULE: "you're not the CPU. And you'll never be."

[@dr.archibalding6922]

Cries in MK 2 Raiden

[@Qwerty-jy9mj]

this captured a lot of how I felt as a kid in the arcade, losing a quarter over cheap stuff was a serious offense

[@scotter7663]

Tick throws were cheap back then though in SF2. They were pretty much inescapable in some cases right? Throws were generally not done in the arcades I used to go to. Every once in a while someone would show up and do tick throws and they were in real danger of getting their ass kicked, especially if they weren't regulars in that arcade

[@DANCERcow]

Get good next time! ._.

[@HumanoidCableDreads]

So what should you do if someone has a life lead and starts to turtle? Throws are included in fighting games for a reason.

[@HumanoidCableDreads]

@@DANCERcow Why learn to tech throws when you can just complain?

[@ColdNorth0628]

@@HumanoidCableDreads why complain when you can beat up the person to alienate them.

[@xXmomofanXx]

Us: “Throws are cheap” Ryu:”Talk is cheap”

[@Dononut305]

Your fists do the talking

[@bervin3232]

“The answer lies in the heart of battle.”

[@nedinnis6752]

@@Dononut305 "Punches kid in arcade"

[@MadMax22]

@@nedinnis6752 yea let's see how fast that grab is in real life

[@thecrimsonfuckeralucardlor5087]

*screams while getting infinite grabbed by ice climbers*

[@Eji1700]

I always found ST dictator fascinating because of things like this. For those who don't know, he's a character who's only real reversal requires full super meter and a charge. This means that he has multiple matchups where he's just DEAD if the opponent gets a KD or a throw without meter, and if memory servers one matchup (boxer) where he's dead either way because he can cross you up before the tick throw. And yet, he's playable. Really really interesting to watch high level dictator play knowing all of this.

[@thesuntitan]

Any high level Dictator players you recommend to watch? I don’t follow SF2 but you got me interested

[@frankjiang6565]

@@thesuntitan try Yuuvega or Taira

[@MiscFightVids]

You can use light psycho crusher to get out of certain specific situations. It has some invincibility frames, they just don't cover the active frames. So you have weird interactions where it will consistently beat Honda headbutt, but is worthless against jump ins. It's all about matchup knowledge.

[@murrayshekelberg9754]

A lot of that is probably because he is actually a helicopter.

[@pandavelli8176]

@@thesuntitan DarkSydePhil is the best Super Turbo player in North America, or so I’ve heard 🤷‍♂️

[@herbaldragonX]

I remember when local arcade had a sf2 tourney, and a guy threaten to beat my ass if I did jab throw repeat. lol

[@sliding_by8607]

Lmao

[@Ramsey276one]

When your opponent is PHYSICALLY BESIDE YOU, you better behave! XD Seriously I was given a MvC2 game because HE WAS GONNA BEAT UP ANOTHER GUY I HAD JUST ENTERED THE ARCADE I won that round XD

[@earthjin2000]

I was at an arcade where they had stools....I don't look that big sitting down but shithead still tried to threaten me. So I played as cheap as possible for half the round then stood up and played fair. Beat him pretty silly a few games in a row.

[@nicks4802]

Should’ve called the cops on him for threatening you... 1 less opponent

[@herbaldragonX]

@@nicks4802 didnt cross my mind, my dad came with at the ready incase something did go down.

[@ZeludeRose]

fun fact, 0:45 is seth killian throwlooping darksydephil lol

[@TheoryFighter]

EVO Grand Finals 2007! kzbin.info/www/bejne/pJqQpn-Vm5J7rrM#&ab_channel=jchensor

[@battosaijenkins946]

@@TheoryFighter No, you know what's cheap? Running the clock out. Sooo many times I've played opponents and during low time left they play 'run away'. SO CHEAP! I never EVER do that, keep fighting until HP is 0 or at least attempt to. NEVER run away, thank you~

[@iamahorseradish3860]

@@battosaijenkins946 if it’s a money match or somethings at stake I think anything goes, but you and someone else purely to have fun? Throw those timeouts in the trash.

[@martmine4618]

@@battosaijenkins946 lmao either this is a dsp reference or this guy doesn't understand basic competitive rules.

[@diddlenfiddle7311]

@@battosaijenkins946 Hmm I think that's hard to say. I think if the rounds are long then running out the clock isn't bad as you've both had long enough. If there's little time for the rounds then I agree for sure.

[@ZylethXenocian]

"Ew throws are cheap." *FACES THE SUNSET, TIGHTENS HEADBAND* "Talk is cheap."

[@khamaji09]

😭😭😭🤣🤣🤣

[@thecrimsonfuckeralucardlor5087]

*screams while getting chain grabbed by ice climbers causing them to mess up*

[@michiganjack1337]

Yeah it’s what is missing these days. The real threat of getting punched in the face by the person you just throw looped in the arcade.

[@leomonz]

Glad, everything is online now.... make sure they dont know where you live tho

[@XeviousvSBlackmanta]

Yepppp, all that shit talking had real risk in person. Thats why i miss the Arcade days, generally peeps was wayyy more Civil.

[@rmglover3191]

I have this very same conversation with anyone younger than 35 and who didn't grow up in a rough neighborhood! where a game of streetfighter could end in a fight depending on which neighborhood you play, and who knows you. now, when I see dudes walking down the street in flip flops, or slides, I just know we live in a different time!

[@XeviousvSBlackmanta]

@@rmglover3191 Bruhh every time i played a cab, quarters up, ggs after matches, mfs never vame with disrespect. Online enviro? Booooooy, i cant man, i dont even have my mic on unless its with the homies

[@michiganjack1337]

@@rmglover3191 LMFAO - Amen.

[@NebulaPurple]

thank you for recording the SF2 footage using scanlines, makes a lot of old games look way better

[@jorisdelben8145]

Something else to note is how the damage is "reduced" when teching throws. I don't know when it stopped but in the first instances of SF2, you took the full damage of the throw, then the game gave you back the health you kept with the tech. This means that if you were in range of a full damage throw kill, teching was useless since your life went to zero before the game giving it back, therefore considering it a lose.

[@tilasole3252]

Interesting

[@tylerbacoka4248]

truth, today though you would have 15 comeback mechanics to sit through first, then would have to watch a minute long super, then you press jab and win.

[@saberkok8209]

Reminds me in the 90s. If you are in the arcade, and you perfrom too many throws, good luck when you are on your way home.

[@tilasole3252]

Must have only been a problem for certain people.

[@saberkok8209]

@@tilasole3252 in the Asian arcade before camera phones were out, if you perfrom too much throws or practically sit there and win whole day, you bound to be teach a lesson of humiliation. If they cannot beat you in arcade game, volience is the answer. And it will teach you how to be human.

[@ROTTERDXM]

Digging the FG vid essays, and the music is a really solid change of pace from the regular offerings in regards to video game content. Keep it up!

[@deathscythe2091]

big fan of the use of the word "outrageous" bonus points for hash tagging the video with #cheap. some mans might just be tryin to get a cheap ting but actually they've seen the horror that is cloudpaul's favourite street fighter 2 game, world warrior

[@splatbubble]

Cherry Coke!!

[@crussteasock4047]

Why bonus points for a hashtag? I don't get it Also, ting?

[@danielmartinontiverosvizca7325]

press ← repeatedly on your keyboard at 0:00 to see ryu throw hadouken like crazy

[@IuriSigma]

lol indeed

[@Ramsey276one]

Rainbow Edition??? XD

[@TlelocGaming]

@@Ramsey276one salutations from California friend.

[@Tp-ce7di]

I remember being a child at many arcades learning the ropes of sf2 and realized a lot of these guys were being big babies about peoples tactics i mean it's a fighting game you wanna win don't ya? I used to get a lot of hate but that never stopped me from wanting to get better by learning to counter whatever "cheese" was thrown at me. I always felt if you weren't ready to fight out of a corner or control yourself from getting sweeped multiple times or be patient on the get up so you don't get multiple grabbed you didnt deserve a chance to win in the first place. I used to hear I'm cheap but as time went on and games evolved i was acknowledged as one of the best in my hood and other arcades. Nothing beat facing off against real rivals not babies who really didn't take the time to practice the craft learning the "footsie" game frames and all that jazz. People who used to complain about that stuff were just looking for excuses not to get better or learn from the mistakes they repeatedly make. I mean why should i fight the way you want to fight? That's not how matches are controlled anything to take your opponent out of his/her element.

[@justsignmeup911]

I don't think this mentioned that ST has a few frames of throw invincibility on wake up. That's why tic throws are used as okizeme.

[@GlowingOrangeOoze]

Thanks for this comment. I was curious about exactly this.

[@shaunmcisaac782]

In SF2 its 13 frames. In SF3 its 4 frames and in SFV it's down to 2.

[@MrBroken030]

@@shaunmcisaac782 Interesting, where do u got those numbers from? But I gotta say it makes much sense to me that they dropped the throw invincibility to only 4 frames in 3s cause throw is integral to the rock/paper/scissor game thats at the core of the game :D

[@intergalacticdegengypsy6135]

@@MrBroken030 people download the overlay hack that shows ALL frame data in real time, that's generally how this info gets out

[@saado99]

@@shaunmcisaac782 I think SF3 has 6f throw invul.

[@SWIFTO_SCYTHE]

Guile's suplex. Ryu and ken's overshoulder throw. Chun-li shove throw. Dhalsim's Yoga Knock Knock.

[@Goldenleyend]

World Heroes 2 has the best throws. You have a massive window to tech, and teching doesn't just stop the throw it actually turns it back on your opponent. Not only that your opponent can tech the tech, you can tech his tech and tech to infinity with every grab. Its hilarious.

[@alexojideagu]

You can also do that to an extent in Dead or Alive

[@tilasole3252]

The big sprite fighting game. Loved the magician with his magical large hands and feet.

[@piratesephiroth]

When I was a kid I loved the voices and sound efects in that game. Like when Dragon wins the round: ding, ding, ding.... WOOOOOOOOOOO

[@BobbyxZx]

never once have i thought "throws are cheap." i've only thought, "throws are tough to deal with, i should use them more"

[@esmooth919]

Never have I ever thought throws were cheap...especially since I knew that they were essential for getting me out of the fucking corner. Lol

[@ThatguycalledJoe]

Mortal Kombat II CPU - "Okay, yeah, give it a try see how that works for you."

[@lilwyvern4]

@@ThatguycalledJoe MK2 CPU actually cheats though. Like they'll be able to do things a human player, even with TAS reflexes and inputs, simply can't. Like invincible moves that aren't invincible for you.

[@ThatguycalledJoe]

@@lilwyvern4 Still leaves a bad impression. As I said in a standalone comment that got buried, I say throws are cheap because they're a big part of how Mortal Kombat II outright cheats. I feel like if there were a list of the worst fighting game single player modes, Mortal Kombat II would be there. Probably below U/MK3, but still there. Really turned me off of fighting games, honestly, but it's wasn't the only factor. I just don't like complicated inputs and stodgy movements, I'll stick to things where doing something in particular is nice and straightforward and you can just turn and run in the direction opposite of the opponent.

[@thecrimsonfuckeralucardlor5087]

*laughs in ice climbers infinite grab loop*

[@MessianicJewJitsu]

Reminds me of hardcore and punk shows where some people would say, "No Judo in the Mosh Pit!" Or "Keep your Karate out of the Mosh Pit!"

[@petefury94]

Hey just wanted to say I find your opinions very interesting and your video essays really well structured. Keep up the great work.

[@khayes556]

title: Why Throws Were "Cheap" me: *laughs in King main*

[@AnthanKrufix]

I'd say throws in Tekken are the opposite of Cheap, you can see which direction to tech in before the throw lands, and can also do it retroactively after it does so.

[@edlerkrieger8045]

@@AnthanKrufix King multi throws are bullshit tho, even knee has trouble breaking them.

[@zethroth0077]

@@edlerkrieger8045 True, but it’s hard to pull off throws with King, besides the generic pick up from the floor after launching. His throws are very punishable due to amount of spacing you need.

[@carlossosa1359]

This Doesn't have shit to do with King

[@TheChosenOne1_]

@@carlossosa1359 king may be from Tekken but hes a grappler character so it kinda does have something to do with him

[@goodie2shoes874]

You ask all the questions I didn't know I wanted to answer to.

[@BeatJunkie-mq1tc]

I highly agree but for some reason performing Ken's double back-flip kick throw was sooo satisfying, especially being my favorite character

[@issasecretbuddy]

for the smash fans out there, there’s a classic Drephen combo video called “all this ***** do is grab”

[@dixonhall447]

oh trust me melee fans know how cheap grabs can be.... (wobbling)

[@Spunney]

@@dixonhall447 wobbling isnt cheap, its just a good punish! icies dont have a good grab or tools that let them land one easily. its not like it takes all 4 of your stocks, anyways :P

[@happycamperds9917]

Meanwhile in Smash Ultimate: “Grabs suck in this game! I wish the buffed the range. There are no follow ups! Smash 4 was better.”

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

@@happycamperds9917 ah yes, the old down grab to up tilt that almost every character had

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

@@Spunney yeah but imagine dying at 0% by one grab that doesn't need that much skill. When i was new at melee i learned nearly instantly how to wobble, i don't think it is that fair And they do have another good option, is called desync. And It's also in ultimate, if melee ice climbers mains used that technique they would be the flashiest and the coolest, plus it also can kill you at 0% but you need skill

[@renzokukenleneyoyo522]

I loved how world heroes allowed to counter a throw and that would lead to a throw mashing contest and may the strongest mashing stamina win!

[@bernardorodriguesribeiro750]

I love how you put doom metal on the background of your videos

[@WickedKnightAlbel]

Fighting games are metal AF

[@sabishiihito]

Not many people knew reversals existed back in the day since from what I remember, *none* of the US gaming magazines ever explained it. Also, we thought that tick throws were actually throwing the opponent *while in block stun* as it sure *looked* like that was what was happening and like with reversals, none of the resources available explained things clearly. I'm sure in Japan with easy access to the devs and magazines like Gamest, they had the info already.

[@jesusdeeez370]

Back in the day throwing was forbidden at our arcade 😂

[@Grandmaster_Sub-Zero]

In Korea, throws would result in an automatic loss. The only acceptable throws were from grapple characters like Zhangief

[@KyokujiFGC]

@@Grandmaster_Sub-Zero Which is incredibly stupid because that means you could just block forever if you had a lead.

[@loto7197]

Arcade full of scrubs no doubt

[@Grandmaster_Sub-Zero]

@@KyokujiFGC There is a such thing as chip damage.

[@Mega2chan]

Lot of people excusing bad game design behind “you just gotta deal with it man”. Throws in SF2 was poorly implemented in the game mechanics and there’s nothing wrong with admitting that

[@MrBroken030]

Another cheap thing about the sf2 turbo throw teching is that if the full damage of a throw could kill you cant soften the throw to halve the damage taken. Another thing, about trying to reversal in ST is that the turbo interval skips certain frames, if that frame overlaps with the 1 frame reversal window your inputs wont be registered, in other words it can be impossible to do a reversal even if u have the perfect execution.

[@Swampson1738]

Additionally, new Ken can only reversal the last special he performed

[@christran332]

This is false. Skipped frames do not affect inputs. You can always reversal.

[@christran332]

​@@Swampson1738 This only applies to his super, not his specials.

[@Swampson1738]

@@christran332 that's just not true

[@MrBroken030]

@@christran332 "This is false. Skipped frames do not affect inputs. You can always reversal." combovid.com/?p=5002 Have you read this article? I read it back when it was new, do you have more recent information on the topic of turbo speeds and frameskip? It specifically states the things i said about the reversal window in st......oh and other inputs can drop too, thats why 1 frames can never be actually learned in games that use turbo frame skip (cause frameskip can turn that 1 frame link window into a 0 frame windows).

[@kikook222]

Xrd has throws like this. Because they mapped it to HS you could bait them very easily by being out of grab range and going low. If they tried to mash grab then you'd always hit them low. It was hard to get used to when I started it but I ended up really liking the options that type of grab gives you.

[@datankle7519]

Been on an ST binge recently. So seeing this is adding to my recent obsession Then I saw all the uploads. Gonna be a busy night. Subbed. Easy.

[@jsieunarine]

The arcade I played games , the corner stick throw was banned in SFCE like basically you were allowed to throw once but then you had to jump back and let the guy stand up ...the owner would literally pull out the plug and give you no refund if you were caught doing it to someone in a match.

[@OlDirtyBaron]

similar situation here. cheap shit was banned and you had to let a guy come out of dizzy or else you'd be considered a bad player and no one would play with you. early arcade culture for fighting games was pretty wild considering what it became.

[@CoralCopperHead]

So if someone got butthurt about someone else being better than them everyone threw a hissy fit and whined until they left. And people wonder why arcades died.

[@jakal911]

It was really forbidden to do throws at the arcade when I played. It was a universal rule at a lot of arcades I went to, not just one. Only time you could do it was when there was a guaranyeed hit (missed a dp and open to counterattack for example) or when the opponent was dizzy. This was true for SF2, SF2:CE, SF2T, and SSF2. I didn't play SSF2T in arcades, but assumed it was the same for that one too.

[@SadToffee]

I never complained about throws even when I was new ...yes in a grappler main but that doesn't mean anything.

[@D3Vlicious]

ST reversal window wasn't just small, it was somewhat randomized meaning it wasn't the same everytime.

[@syrelian]

WHAT?! Thats just dumb as hell, gods SF2 is a mess

[@saado99]

@@syrelian According old school purists it's the epitome of chess and pure street fighter🤣

[@naejimba]

@@syrelian , it's between a set number of frames... meaning if your timing and execution is on point you eliminate the randomness.

[@syrelian]

@@naejimba Thats not at all what that means, "within a set number" literally just means the window is random within a range, it could be frames 34-37, or 40-43 or whatever, not a guarantee that any particular window always exists

[@naejimba]

@@syrelian , keep in mind, pianoing your buttons is also a thing... that gives you up to 6 chances (both press and release) that cover a number of frames. I'm not saying it is easy, but this is another thing that when added together eliminates the randomness in a reversal. Typically on a throw you have at least two buttons, so that would be four chances. So another example with random windows for special inputs (9-14 frames if I remember correctly) it will ALWAYS be 9-14 frames... so if you are getting your special out in 9 frames you can do it consistently. If that makes sense. it's not like one time it will be 7-12 frames and another it could be 9-14... so there is a minimum value that will always get the move out.

[@TypetwoAbsolute]

super turbo where as a new player you will lose 50 times in 5 minutes, by the time you get good at the game you become immune to getting tilted in other games.

[@weeatpizza7806]

Where I grew up if you threw someone in the arcade it was courtesy to let them throw u right back and then Re start neutral.

[@rmglover3191]

I was born in 1970, so you can do the math on how old I was when SF2 dropped. so much fun to watch and play. sucked to lose your quarter, but - it was only a quarter (for awhile at least.) I grew up in the hood, but played downtown. oh, the ignorance; I learned basic three-hit combos and was accused of being "cheap" because the local fools didn't know words and had zero technique. as for now, I thoroughly enjoy the art of war that happens between today's masters. I watch it regularly. but I can't play this, man. I got damn bills and haven't touched a controller since Streetfighter vs. SNK 2. entertaining video, sir!

[@basic5926]

Came for the fighting game wisdom, stayed for that and also the excellent Swedish stoner goodness in the background. Great video!

[@GarethXL]

how to counter trows in WW and ST TIGER TIGER TIGER TIGER TIGER UPERCUT

[@mrmacross]

You can't TIGER TIGER TIGER TIGER TIGER UPPERCUT in WW under normal circumstances, though. :)

[@GarethXL]

@@mrmacross i'm pretty sure youncan TK though if i remember correctly

[@shaunmcisaac782]

@@GarethXL You can't play Sagat in WW :) That was in CE.

[@sliding_by8607]

@@shaunmcisaac782 lmaooooo got'em !!!

[@alexreyes8749]

I've played the hell out of street fighter 2 champion edition and New challengers and what made them cheap was that you can't stop a throw. The most you can do is tech it after you're thrown. Also deejay is crazy he's an anti shoto character love his theme though.

[@CrimsonMoonM]

Looking back, this stuff feels kinda nostalgic...

[@zackfarrel8561]

You're definitely what I was looking for. Fighting game theory. Keep it up. 👍

[@urielnascimento3567]

That Ken vs Dhalsim comeback actually felt amazing tbh

[@yeetusthemfetus1436]

how to know that someone's new in town: they throw looped a guy in the arcade and got stabbed

[@PKWinning07]

Aren't reversals sort of RNG because most CPS games are played at speeds that use frameskip or is my understanding of the engine wrong

[@HumanoidCableDreads]

This is one of the few legit complaints about throws in fighting games. It is proven the CPU literally cheats in SF2.

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

@@HumanoidCableDreads exactly

[@christran332]

Inputs aren't affected by frame skip. You can reversal 100% of the time.

[@ReCharredSigh]

As far as I know, CPS games had random damage and stun values, but the frame data was the same. The CPU in super turbo definitely would read your inputs and cheat though.

[@nessearthbound3107]

Ayyyy nice choice for the music! I was wondering where the stoner metal was coming from and it turns out it was Monolord lol

[@Coswalker27]

i have been never in a situation of cheep grabs. i just been projectile spammed.

[@vodkagobalsky]

Come see me in ST

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

Ah yes, Hol horse flashbacks in jjba: hftf

[@bubblegumxo]

Projectile spam has been a thing for sooooo long it's NEVER going away.

[@Coswalker27]

@@bubblegumxo Even in game like tekken there projectiles.

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

@@bubblegumxo well, it is mainly because it is a good strategy that can beat people that aren't good enought at x game, and doesn't need skill. anyways, i do think that it can dissapear. but just in some games where the comunity just want to "not be toxic and cheap" while playing

[@saado99]

The bell curve goes like this - lower percentile "throws are broken in ST" medium percentile "na you're just a scrub get good and learn to play" "upper percentile "throws are broken in ST"

[@earthjin2000]

Some WW cabinets seemed a bit different where "tap and throw" was easily countered on and Guile's flash kick covered half the screen.

[@phosphene6086]

Nice video! The music is a little bit loud in the mix (at least for me), so that's something you might want to look at for a next video ;-)

[@bigredradish]

as somebody who still can't tech throws in 2020 the idea of st tick throws is putting me in a cold sweat

[@ieorlich]

SFV logic, and game play is based on throwing. So, I always expect people are going to throw on almost every close situation. Also you can press throw not on time (a bit late) and still tech it. That's good because human reaction isn't that fast. But if you press a button, you are done, it's too late, you will be thrown no matter how fast is your light jab. Also this applies the other way around. If you missed a throw, usually your opponent are going to press a bottom when they see you missing it. But the trick is, if you press throw multiple times, you have a lot of chances to hit the throw after the first is missed, because the bottom they pressed afterwards isn't on time against a throw, but if they press throw too, you both are going to repel each other as usual. I my opinion everything could be just fine if throws were less strong. It ridiculously reduce the HP bar. More than some specials...

[@hiphop402]

Really missing your content, hope you're doing well and please keep it up! 🙏🙌

[@mrmacross]

I don't know if throws are cheap, but in WW they were too strong with 0-frame startup, no whiffs, high damage, no techs, and no reversals.

[@phantomspaceman]

And then people figured out kara throws.

[@Ramsey276one]

YEP

@@phantomspaceman I don't think there were kara throws in WW , no?

[@betty-ld6wy]

@ what's WW

@@betty-ld6wy sf2 classic

[@mtoffo2275]

I was halfway through the video before realizing he was saying throws and not froze. I was genuinely waiting for him to explain what frozes are

[@persona83]

For most of situations, throw loops are cheap. But for some matches, it's the only way to win. Ken vs Dhalsim is a classic example.

[@habanerodash447]

Great video, background music makes the video slightly miserable to sit through, however. Keep this stuff coming!

[@mattkaz9604]

It's from World Warrior - the throws in that would cause huge damage.

[@flamitaz]

Did you ever try countering with a dragon punch from getting up? if timed right Ryu or Ken would stand with an immediate dragon punch and i remember that would LITERALLY take about half their life, you would just see them fall back in slow mo (cause they died) even before the life bar went all the way down! Like when blanka would do a barrel roll and you hit him with a dragon punch! Loved that!

[@SDSOverfiend]

Lol awww man.... This just took me all the way back to ‘91. 4 throws you dead and 5 with Dhalsim. We call it “Running a Pattern” then later on “Running pads”. This shit would get you stomp out. Dudes use to say “My bad after a throw” and offer a give a Throw back.

[@TheMasterBlaze]

1.) Throws had deceptively good range 2.) Throws used to do absurd damage 3.) Throw teching didn't exist

[@KyokujiFGC]

This was only true in WW. Every game from CE onwards had reversals added and then ST added techs. It's just that ST's techs would still result in you losing some positioning and taking a bit of damage to reward the aggressor for putting you on the defensive. This is something that a lot of players still feel should be in SF. Daigo's talked about how he thinks having 100% consequence-free tech options is ultimately bad for the game.

[@ForeverLaxx]

@@KyokujiFGC Wouldn't say I disagree with that assessment. Overly-rewarding defensive play usually leads to very boring games, both to watch and to play. It was one of many reasons I stopped playing For Honor years ago.

[@thecrimsonfuckeralucardlor5087]

Not to mention other games exist where they are incredibly broken. 2 off the top of my head include ice climbers chain grab in ssb and ring out in soul calibur 2 tiny maps.

[@TheMasterBlaze]

@@thecrimsonfuckeralucardlor5087 Don't forget wobbling or the freezing glitch IC's had in Melee. Chain grabbing in brawl was a core part of the game just because of how the mechanics played out, but IC's had the best one because it worked on 100% of the roster which is crazy.

[@thecrimsonfuckeralucardlor5087]

@@TheMasterBlaze this series has so many exploits in each game its nuts, like Samus secret grab they removed in the last version in melee.

[@CosmicDomo]

0:20 - 0:46 I dont know why but this line really resonated with me. Very well said.

[@thadonis.]

Would love a vid from you about just how balanced ST really is? And a tier list. Cheers.

[@PAKA62]

Spoilers: It isn't

[@Loyal2law]

Reads video title: Every focused grappler in every fighting game: *Interesting*

[@LITTLE1994]

Throws in SF are sometimes hilarious in the old games, but they are notorious under CPU use, as you pretty much can't escape them.

[@saado99]

Another thing too that makes throw loops so crazy is if you're making a normal meaty into the throw, eg. dhalsim's cr.lk or boxer's cr.mk, those normals have many active frames, so it is not very easy to know when you are free and ready to throw back. That's on top of if they're even GOING to grab. If you're a character with crappy grab range and/or no reversal, gooood luck.

[@erikkn]

I watched the whole video because I'm stoned out of my mind and Monolord is dope.

[@ignaciocorto]

7:01 wow, never thought about that wakeup benefit of button-release/negative edge.

[@blobeyeordie]

Very interesting insight into throws. I never thought they were necessarily cheap myself but that they did an excessive amount damage, not just in sf. I feel like if throws only accumulated stun points, they would be less "cheap" and better accepted. Thatd also be an interesting dynamic change, especially in competitive. Gootecks and Mike Ross actually touched on that in quite some detail in one of their excellent adventures episodes some time ago.

[@NicDoesDumbThings]

Just tech it

[@jshepherd1102]

I’ve been playing Street Fighter my whole life. I never even heard of this “throw is cheap” thing until just a few of years ago when I began talking to fellow players online.

[@DEATHRAGE157]

"Throws are cheap", says the dude that Just guard and attack, i Love when people do that on soul calibur

[@PabbyPabbles]

I played a lot of Streets of Rage lately and all I can think of while watching this video is "Hold up and jump you'll be fine"

[@Xgamerz_channel]

1:10 thanks for footage zagi vs me :D

[@SoushinSen]

A dude almost dragged me out of the arcade to beat me up because i was being "cheap" with my throws. But onlookers stopped him.

[@StoneGreninja]

Great video. SF2 really is cutthroat but I'm more of a Fatal Fury guy.

[@HumanoidCableDreads]

Predictobo

[@orlanzo2621]

Fatal Fury Special was my game back in the day.

[@chattingesque372]

I was all about slide kicks and throws back in the day

[@Henrrrybigballer]

i have scars of balrogs throws

[@GarethXL]

"lets briefly talk about command trows specifically Thawk and e-honda" *briefly pukes in mouth*

[@ericmclean4291]

I started playing SFII on fightcade and that sh*t is way harder than I remembered.

[@IPODsify]

I think something is cheap when the counter strategy is significantly harder than it. Since there's practically no start up and no whiff, I'd say it's fairly rated

[@thecrimsonfuckeralucardlor5087]

Or if there is not really any counter and it comes down to who grabs first like a small arena in soul calibur 2 with ring out being an ez win.

[@Swampson1738]

Where the ST Guile mains at? I love doing meaty jab boom into either a low or a throw. ST is so fun.

[@HumanoidCableDreads]

Guile had such a good throw.

[@HumanoidCableDreads]

Like he really tossed their asses on the ground hard. You got why it did so much damage.

[@kennethw6962]

The cheapest character I remember was M bison. I would always do the foot slide, forcing my opponent to block low. While they are were in a blocked position, go in for the easy throw. It was pretty cheap!

[@ori.g4mi]

That works because it forces you into block stun and they can mash out a throw as soon as their sliding animation ends. Really effective in CE

[@AvangionQ]

Hit then throw was cheap back then, as they were inescapable ... no tech throws, just block-stun into knockout @ 1:00 Thanks for demonstrating

[@h2_]

You didn't link the video explaining T.Hawk's throw loop thing properly in the description like you said you would :(

[@TheoryFighter]

Oh no! Sorry about that, added now - kzbin.info/www/bejne/kHPbqnWOgr-kmKM&ab_channel=FrameAdvantageDotCom

[@vodkagobalsky]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/rXTcdXyCZZKpj6s

[@h2_]

@@TheoryFighter ty :)

[@Anomaly188]

There was a SamSho 2 tourney at EVO one year and the most effective tactic was tick throw loops with Gen-an's slide.

[@KyokujiFGC]

I feel like this misses one big point, which is that throws being stronger also made getting in more rewarding. This was extremely important for a game like ST where zoning is so incredibly strong. We're talking about a game where Zangief's SPD had huge range and a 1f start-up (un-jumpable), but he's still bottom tier because he has such an insanely difficult time getting/staying in in most match-ups. If you added SF3-style neutral throw techs to ST, it would instantly make top/high tier zoners like O. Sagat, Ryu, Deejay, Guile, etc even stronger. Stronger throws also punish you for having worse neutral, so failing an anti-air or losing a footsie war even if you block is way more dangerous than it is in newer games where you have safer defensive options. This makes the neutral less forgiving, which a lot of high level players prefer. In newer games, you can fuck up a lot more in neutral and still come out okay because blocking/teching are much safer options due to how much weaker chip/grabs are. Older games forced a tighter, more active neutral for this reason, since even small positioning mistakes could be punished harshly. I feel like a lot of older scrubs will use this video to justify their dumb mentality because this video doesn't really fully explain why these mechanics ended up being necessary for those games for the most part (and based on the comments so far, that's exactly what's happening) -- outside of WW where there was legitimately no counter once you were in the situation. Hell, some modern games like KoF and Guilty Gear still use the one-button option-select style of grab. Also, to people complaining about grabs, nerfing throws would be like allowing goal-tending in the NBA to make things easier for the defenders. It would ruin the game. The idea is your defense shouldn't allow the enemy team into scoring range to begin with.

[@TheoryFighter]

Absolutely agreed.

[@TheoryFighter]

I will say, even though I do think it's an oversight me not presenting the strength of zoning in ST (it was assumed knowledge) regardless of the information presented people will use it to justify daft opinions and there are enough comments on here saying "just tech the throw", in a game where you can only soften them as evidence. I considered adding in bits about GG but it felt largely irrelevant due to the amount of defensive options you have against them.

[@TlelocGaming]

Nice matches.. this games takes me back way back.... nice memories...ggs..

[@jacquesplaysdrums]

shout outs to Free Play Arcade

[@Odbarc]

When I played SFA3 with my brother, I set the damage settings to minimum but the throw damage to maximum.

[@Senketsujin]

This video sounds like it's for LTG lol

[@stale_cheeto]

You're implying that he'd actually listen to this though... Dale is too arrogant for that

[@MxMoondoggie]

My local arcade as a kid played with no throws, usually if somebody accidentally did a throw they'd let the other person get one back and then reset. Kind of funny really how these rules came about but if you didn't follow those rules then nobody would play you and it basically became impossible to play on the machine because people would be crowding it and they wouldn't accept playing you. You'd maybe get to play but you'd do it alone which is very lonely so peer pressure played a part in following that rule.

[@tilasole3252]

That would not have worked for many people. You play the game as intended. "Get gud", as the cool kids say these days.

[@CoralCopperHead]

"You'd maybe get to play but you'd do it alone" That sounds like an advantage to me. No whiners bitching about losing to techniques that were intentionally built into the game.

[@tilasole3252]

@@CoralCopperHead I remember being told back in the day, Blanka's rolls or Ryu's and Ken's fireball, if spammed was bad. Recently even by a grown man, I was told my Guile moves were all defensive. I asked him if he knew how to do Guile's moves, but I think he was partially drunk. I think I embarrassed him in front of his girl as well. O_o

[@joecoolmccall]

I really can't take those who call things "cheap" in fighting games seriously...

[@Omgits7ito]

Right! There’s no rules to fighting, but I do vehemently hate players who spam the same projectile or move over and over aaaaand that’s only because I’m mad at myself for not figuring out how to punish the spamming

[@jvaldez1896]

Wow, street fighter 2 was the first game I ever played and it was at an arcade right next to Bubble Bobble that must have been around 1993 or something, I was like 6 or 7. Can't believe this game is still revelant.

[@TheHandsomestMale]

I find the Forward + Heavy P stuff interesting because I honestly can't get my head around it sometimes, I like having complete control over when I want to grab because those heavies are often have huge negative frames.

[@naejimba]

You do have complete control if you know your spacings. it's the same as learning the range for close and far normals.

[@angelojohnson9441]

You left a huge chunk: The AI. The AI in original SF2 was infamously cheap and its button mashing speed was unparalleled. A grab from Balrog was a 3rd of your health (SF2 Turbo home version). Even button mashing the most I could ever take was 4th. Then its timing: I have been thrown midair by Chunli (SF2T hv) in the middle of performing a psycho crusher.

[@MansMan42069]

People forget that the old 1-button throws were basically Option Selects by the way they were executed. The game does the work for you, throwing if in range and attacking if not.

[@HatredSonneillon]

IMO what sucks about throws is their long animations where the opponent just sits there and has to accept all the damage they're about to take. If the animation length matched the input then I think itd be less frustrating. A universal 6h grab, on any character, has no business having as long an animation as a 360 command grab.

[@bigredradish]

tell that to nrs. PLEASE, PLEASE TELL THAT TO NRS

[@HatredSonneillon]

@@bigredradish Sorry, whats NRS?

[@HatredSonneillon]

@@dariuscm98 Oh right. Thank you. Ill be sure to send them a strongly worded email about this.

[@JohnnyThousand605]

Inn '92 I'd watch the SF hardcore at the local arcade play with rules like No Throws, One Handed etc. If someone accidentally did a throw, they'd apologise and and let their opponent take a free throw. Not only that, if the 'accidental thrower' didn't have much life, the 'throwee' would usually let it go through to the keeper so they could keep playing =)

[@Lasaro7499]

Its like winning by kicking someone in the balls. Yeah its effective but cowardly and cheap.

[@thecrimsonfuckeralucardlor5087]

Especially ice climbers chain grab in ssb and soul calibur 2 ring out in general.