Why Tolkien Opposed Vatican II

[@theelevatedone2536]

I see now why he framed the Numenoreans abandoning the Elvish Quenya tongue usually used for rituals, ceremonies, and nomenclature in favor of the vernacular Adunaic as a bad thing, and a prominent example of the island kingdom’s gradual decline. It echoed his views on the replacement of Latin in the Catholic Church with vernaculars.

[@JerehmiaBoaz]

It's an absurd position for a linguist to hold because if linguistic development would have stopped after the fall of Rome and we'd be still talking Latin he'd be out of a job. Now I know it's about language in service of religion, but the point of Vatican II was that the religion was dying and needed reform to survive, and getting rid of a dead language nobody spoke anymore for 1500 years except for the elites was an important part of that revival.

[@AureliusLaurentius1099]

​@@JerehmiaBoaz Catholicism started to decline in the 80s

[@deutschermichel5807]

​@@AureliusLaurentius1099 Catholicism aint declining at all. Look at the figures. The faith is growing

[@JerehmiaBoaz]

@@AureliusLaurentius1099 So what was the reason for Vatican II then, if Catholicism wasn't in decline after 2 world wars that made tens of millions lose their faith?

[@Sapo_Triste]

​@@JerehmiaBoazQuite the opposite. The decline of the Catholic Church started AFTER the Vatican II.

[@ricardocastillo5485]

As a Catholic who has been reading Tolkien for 45 years, and very knowledgeable about both Tolkien and Vatican 2, I approached this video with skepticism, and quickly discovered that you know EXACTLY what you're talking about. Bravo! Excellent video!

[@JerehmiaBoaz]

I have a few questions: 1) When did Tolkien write the legend of Numenor, can we assume it was before the appearance of LOTR in 1954-1955? 2) If so, does it make sense to claim that Tolkien was referring to Vatican II years or even decades before it happened in 1962-1965? 3) Wouldn't it be more reasonable to assume that Tolkien is referring to the Reformation instead?

[@tominiowa2513]

@@JerehmiaBoaz Númenor is Atlantis, not Vatican II or the Reformation. 1. "The Men of the Three Houses were rewarded for their valour and faithful alliance, by being allowed to dwell 'western-most of all mortals', in the great 'Atlantis' isle of Númenóre" - Tolkien Letter 131 2. "The three main themes are thus The Delaying Elves that lingered in Middle-earth; Sauron's growth to a new Dark Lord, master and god of Men; and Numenor-Atlantis." - Ibid. 3. "This was because they had been allies of the Elves in the First Age, and had for that reason been granted the Atlantis isle of Númenor." - Tolkien Letter 144 4. "The particular 'myth' which lies behind this tale, and the mood both of Men and Elves at this time, is the Downfall of Númenor: a special variety of the Atlantis tradition." - Tolkien Letter 154 5. "So ended Númenor-Atlantis and all its glory." - Tolkien Letter 156 6. "Númenor, shortened form of Númenórë, is my own invention, compounded from numē-n, 'going down' (√ndū, nu), sunset. West, and nōrë 'land, country' = Westernesse. The legends of Númenórë are only in the background of The Lord of the Rings, though (of course) they were written first, and are only summarised in Appendix A. They are my own use for my own purposes of the Atlantis legend..." - Tolkien Letter 227 7. "My book was never finished², but some of it (the Númenórean-Atlantis theme) got into my trilogy eventually." - Tolkien Letter 252 8. "...I began an abortive book of time-travel of which the end was to be the presence of my hero in the drowning of Atlantis. This was to be called Númenor, the Land in the West." - Tolkien Letter 257 9. "Lewis took no pan in 'research into Númenor'. N. is my personal alteration of the Atlantis myth and/or tradition, and accommodation of it to my general mythology." - Tolkien Letter 276 10. "My effort, after a few promising chapters, ran dry: it was too long a way round to what I really wanted to make, a new version of the Atlantis legend. The final scene survives as The Downfall of Númenor." - Tolkien Letter 294

[@AlasPoorEngland]

I completely recognise and agree with what you say! The LETTERS volume has much about this .. . like Evelyn Waugh he was heartbroken by the unnecessary changes …. but LOTR teaches the virtues of Hope and Patience and we must follow this …

[@AlasPoorEngland]

@@JerehmiaBoazHe wd have seen VII as a continuation of the Reformation.

[@werere885]

Are you slave of roman pope,biggest religios dictatorship? Sorry for you,back to orthodox freedom

[@jucarda572]

Catholic here. Great video. Didn't know about Tolkien's opinion on Vatican II. Loved the video.

[@PaulNizinskyj]

His grandson has related how, when the vernacular was introduced to the Mass, Tolkien would continue to very loudly respond in Latin. 😂

[@Ripplenator]

@@PaulNizinskyj I especially appreciate that aspect of Tolkien.

[@williamj-t2n]

@@jucarda572 Actually, he loved most of Vatican 11, but he was rather attached to the Tridentine way of saying Mass in Latin.

[@fartz3808]

My Great Uncle was a Catholic Deacon or Priest in the 60s-70s (Netherlands) and was insistent on continuing to perform Latin rite, to the point where he was expelled from serving in his previous church and went to a remote chapel to do Latin rite by himself and some nuns.

[@codyschock7752]

Okay, few things here. A deacon or a priest? Deacons cannot celebrate mass. Also the Latin rite is just refers to the liturgical form of the church in the west. Latin rite churches can consist of the Tridentine or novus ordo from of the mass. Lastly, dissenting on church authority is not virtuous or commendable even in times of trials.

[@fartz3808]

@@codyschock7752 Sorry. Going by memory

[@carolingian5736]

St. Athanasius disagrees with you​@@codyschock7752

[@drugleman601]

@@codyschock7752The Church has retracted its full ban on the Latin Rite. If anything, his great uncle had dissented virtuously. The Pope can be fallacious; he can be incorrect; he can sin. He is human, as the rest of us are. I see no reason to believe in infallibility in anything over simple primacy. This, more than anything else I can think to bring up, shows that: being turned away from your church for the sake of continuing a sacred tradition is virtue.

[@leonardoconte980]

he was a legend 💪

[@rafaelfreire7214]

I’m a traditional (as much as I can) Catholic and avid Tolkien fan for 10 years. I would like to commend you for such an accurate video despite not being a Catholic yourself. The most significant of the virtues of this video is that you try to enter Tolkien’s own worldview instead of anachronism so typical of modern intellectuals. Congratulations!

[@InkandFantasy]

Thank you so much, it really means a lot!! God Bless you!!!

[@moniquebrisbois109]

Dommage que ce qui est écrit n'est pas clair

[@mrjoe5292]

There's a difference between being "traditionalist" and being self-pityist. People who uphold traditions don't necessarily trash modernity, or try to push world-views that the past was magically better. That's on you, and you should feel more responsibility towards your own world.

[@Vmac1394]

I really agree with Tolkien here. To put it in Augustine's terms, many churches think the way forward is to drag the City of Man into the City of God to make it hip, but they fundamentally misunderstand churchgoers, thinking them to be children who hate sitting in a pew and engaging in rigid ritual. This could not be further from the truth. I go to church to escape from the City of Man for one hour a week. This misunderstanding can be seen vividly by going to some progressive Protestant church and seeing that the median age in the pews is north of 80, while in a traditional Catholic Latin mass the median age is 50 years lower. What churchgoers want is for the City of God to be the City of God, not some low budget weekly pop concert.

[@KnoxEmDown]

Thank you for that insightful commentary, Trunks from Dragon Ball Z.

[@Safe-and-effective]

Great comment. Our society is being ruined by the "latest is greatest" mentality. Progress is not necessarily a straight line extending eternally into the future. As thinking humans, we need to acknowledge the wisdom of our forefathers and realize that while we may have some technological advancements, there are many instances in which they understood things better than us. The Catholic Church thrives on tradition and tradition alone. Anyone who tries to change that is either delusional or an enemy of the Church.

[@napoleonfeanor]

​​Who says that weebs can't be religious? ;)

[@napoleonfeanor]

Yes, it is really quite easy to explain. People go to church to experience Christianity. If a church goes all into the moral views of the worldly social and political Zeitgeist, there won't be any reason to go to church anymore as it is like every other place.

[@Redfield70]

If you want to understand Jesus, go back to Augustine. He is well before the corporatization of the faith and understands Truth. And he's still the best Theologian of all time.

[@daveh893]

As a Protestant, I can understand Tolkien's feelings. The Protestantism I grew up in has change much in its liturgy and hymnology, much of which is aimed at updating language and trying to speak to the current generational changes. I find it difficult to attend mainline Protestant churches because it has become so foreign to my upbringing and spirituality.

[@deplorabledegenerate2630]

@@daveh893 Are you telling me you don't like popsongs and smoke machines?

[@geoffjs]

Try the Catholic Church.

[@muddlewait8844]

To me, in my lifetime, it’s run in two directions, and at the same time. It’s got more pop-song sensibility (which just isn’t to my tastes) while also becoming less circumspect and much more comfortable with zealotry, which I guess historically is a very Protestant thing. I’m just so tired of people arguing primarily from faith, as if their personal spiritual conviction alone is supposed to convince you they’re right, or more accurately, that said conviction means that any argument or objection you may have doesn’t matter. Tolkien at least knew that personal limitation and the inability of people to understand the whole picture was important, even as tradition passed on what was considered most important by the people who’ve gone before you. He had the humility to both pay respect to the past and to reconsider his own interpretations of it in the present.

[@eldermillennial8330]

Have you explored Western Rite Orthodoxy?

[@RobertWCornell]

Find a Messianic Jewish Church!!!

[@Ama-Elaini]

What Tolkien describes here is what is happening to a lot of things that have retained their popularity for a very long period of time, including his own creation. I think Christopher Tolkien also understood this viewpoint. That is - what the current society considers as modern may lead to further fragmentation and/or denominations. Though once in a while it's good to question whether what is currently considered as modern actually improves things or not. Not just automatically assume it does, because we take it at a face value. It's a pattern that repeated in history as well, coloring the narrative of the events even further back in the light of currently popular ideas. The historians have had a field day in trying to filter the bias.

[@JerehmiaBoaz]

What Tolkien describes here is conservative elitism. He wants church service to be performed in a dead language that not even 5% of his congregation understands because it's a tradition he grew up with and he's part of the 5%.

[@TheDanEdwards]

Maybe Catholicism, and Christianity in general, is just backwards and Tolkien was a stubborn old fool clinging to his religion.

[@paleotomista]

I'd like to offer a clarification. Vatican II did NOT call for the drop of Latin. Quite on the contrary, Vatican II has only one document on the Liturgy (Sacrosanctum Concilium), which explicitly recommends that the Latin be kept. Most of the liturgical reforms happened after the council and are doctrinally independently of it.

[@gerardsotxoa]

It did, the aggorniamento implicitly calls for it.

[@aloyalcatholic5785]

Sacrosanctum Concilium says that but it also says other things that indirectly undermine the position of latin in the liturgy, thus you see the results today.

[@NickFromDetroit]

This is very true. And I’ve attended O.F. Mass with the Latin prayers included & sung, and it is very nice. But some people complained and Father stopped doing it. The problem is that bishops & priests were given too much leeway in the use of language in the Holy Mass.

[@johnhannahoriordan1354]

So why did 2500 bishops return to their dioceses and begin allowing the mass to be celebrated in the vernacular? I know the reason, do you?

[@NickFromDetroit]

@ , You visited all the parishes in 2,500 dioceses around the world in 1970?

[@sypher2024]

The metaphor of the mustard tree that Tolkien relays is stunning. Floored me. Subscribed.

[@jurgenjung4302]

KZbin:die Zuversicht mit "Der Jahrhunderte lange Krieg gegen das deutsche Volk und seine historischen Wurzeln" //

[@peterkilbridge6523]

Mustard doesn't grow on trees. 😊

[@jamesupton4996]

He took it from the Gospel - An image Jesus used for the Kingdom.

[@sypher2024]

@@jamesupton4996 May I please have the book and verse?

[@jamesupton4996]

@sypher2024 Matthew 13 31- 32. Jesus comparing the kingdom of heaven to a mustard seed, that grows from smallest beginnings to become a capacious plant.

[@Ou_phrontis]

Tolkien may have the last laugh. In the US, the Latin Mass is more popular than ever. And the pews of the Latin Mass are filled not with old people who grew up with it, but quite a few younger Catholics. Lots of young families. Teenagers wearing suits or veils. And the priests who celebrate it are often young as well. Since I can read Latin, I was shocked when I started going to Latin Mass at how watered down the language of the English vernacular Mass had become, the Mass I grew up with. I know Benedict XVI had commissioned new translations in the 2010s that fixed some of the issues (like “one in being with the Father” replaced by the more accurate “consubstantial with the Father”). In the old form there is more emphasis that we are humble sinners, and at the Mass we are in the Presence, witnessing the sacrifice of Calvary, a sacrifice made for our salvation.

[@paulmitchell2916]

Currently between 1 and 1.5% of Latin rite masses are in Latin.. the rest vernacular. Among those who hold ecclesiastical authority, that is bishops and the Popes, this is a settled issue. The mass is ordinarily to be offered in the vernacular language. It doesn't matter one whit what "traditionalists" or Tolkien think about it. Continuing to present this as an issue opened to discussion is nothing but disobedience, and it needs to stop.

[@Elven.]

I became an atheist in part due to the novus ordo mass, modernism and lack of real catequesis in catholic schools. Now I found God and wish I could have access to a latin Mass. I just attend the NO mass and it's hard

[@paulmitchell2916]

@@Elven. What makes you say "Now I've found God"? Whatever is the answer to that question is what you need..

[@karlheven8328]

​@@paulmitchell2916It does not matter at all. The Latin Mass is here to stay and it is only gaining more popularity among the Catholics with every year. 😊❤ Priestly ordinations show this and there is no going back

[@Elven.]

@@paulmitchell2916 I don't get your point or your advice, but don't give me unsolicited advice , I tend not to listen to it. People assume, that since I'm a convert, I'm in need for guidance... I wouldn't take guidance from the crowd that pushed me away from God in the first place. I study my faith and ask God, Mother Mary, my guardian angel and others for guidance

[@Elven.]

This man!! He really knew! And without the internet!

[@veronicacorningstone3888]

I’d never heard this before, and as a Catholic who disagrees with a lot of Vatican 2, what Tolkien wrote in this letter really resonates in my heart. Testing loyalty is the truest way of proving that I am indeed loyal to it, thank you Tolkien 🙏

[@MarieCassidy-zd8sc]

There isn't anything wrong with most aspects of Vatican 2, but people fail to realise that the church, prior to that, was far from perfect. It was autocratic, riddled with clericalism, lacked compassion, and overlooked child abuse as well. It was also shame ridden and judgemental. Do we really want to return to that?

[@paperweight57]

Orthodox here. Wonderful video, thanks for sharing! I really appreciated the mustard seed metaphor-what a simple and effective way to describe the growth and development of the historic Church! ☦️

[@lilafeldman8630]

Yes, the parable of the mustard seed can be used to describe the history of the Church.

[@Goingwithafakehandlehere]

To call the catholic church "uncorrupted to this day" is one of the best jokes I've heard in a long time

[@notatall8722]

Well done, overall ...BUT, a major premise of this video is wrong. The liturgical changes here associated with "Vatican II" _were not decided_ at the Second Vatican Council, at all! They came later. The council document on the liturgy, _Sacrosanctum Concilium,_ authorizes a moderate revision of the liturgy, in which "the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites." Even in music, the Latin-language Gregorian Chant is to retain "pride of place." So: According to the council, not much change is being contemplated, at all! But, _after_ the council, things played out differently for bureaucratic and political reasons. After the council, the pope engaged the services of a committee of liturgists including (rather unfortunately) Annibale Bugnini. In order to get his own personal stamp on the results, Bugnini repeatedly lied to the pontiff about what work the committee was doing, and then went back to the committee and lied to _them_ about what the pontiff was asking them to achieve (substituting his own ideas). In this way, he was able to cajole the committee into making radical revisions while keeping the pope in the dark about how radical they were. Moreover, the council anticipated that the pope and bishops would ensure that the updated Missal would exercise a governing authority over implementation, gingerly allowing a bit of the vernacular to be introduced, subject to override by the pope: "[I]t is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Article 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used; their decrees are to be approved, that is, confirmed, by the Apostolic See." But what happened _in practice_ is that parish pastors experimented wildly for decades, lying to their parishoners that the changes had been authorized by "Vatican II." When a parishoner got a bit clever and asked, "Oh? Where? In what document?" they would appeal to a broader idea: "Changes of this kind are according to the _spirit_ of Vatican II." In this way, they introduced novelties (e.g. pop songs at Mass played on guitars) that had no official authorization whatsoever. The laity mostly were unaware that these things _weren't_ authorized by the council. The bishops sometimes encouraged the liberties, but -- as overworked upper-management trusting that -- often didn't know about them until years or decades after they'd become normalized in the minds of congregants. As a result, attempts to roll back some changes were often met with resistance, and the bishops picked their battles rather hesitantly. So: Did the council ask for radical changes, elimination of Latin, anything like that? Nope. Were the post-conciliar revisionists largely acting in disobedience to the council, and consciously evading oversight by the relevant authorities? Yep. That said, the relevant authorities, _by not acting against unauthorized alterations,_ created a _de facto_ policy permitting them, thereby permitting the evolution of the _Novus Ordo_ rites into their present form. _That_ form was not called for by Vatican II. That's why Tolkien was able, on the one hand, to disapprove of the changes that happened "after the council," yet remain docile with respect to the "particular law" enacted by authorities. There's nothing disobedient about saying to one's leaders, "You guys _should have_ enforced the limited vision of Vatican II. But the fact that you failed to enforce it doesn't change the fact that you _are_ the leaders."

[@ColinWrubleski-eq5sh]

By George, it seems as if "notatall8722" has precisely and accurately identified exactly what happened---> the measured and restrained texts of the Council documents and proceedings, versus the disgusting abominations that were justified in the nebulous "spirit" of the Council. And that Bugnini seems like a real piece of work, blatantly lying to all around him, including (the excessively naive, Hamletesque) Paul VI. What a disaster! Satan could not have found a greater tool than that vicious prevaricator. Surely a modern-day retelling of the Divine Comedy would justifiably place Bugnini in the 9th Circle of HELL...

[@johnschuh8616]

You may have noticed that the original version of the new mass was very close in form and substance to some Lutheran Services.

[@rutgerkerpel306]

Bugnini was an infiltrant and look what his document with vague wording has produced..?

[@gennarojg3]

As a big Tolkien Fan and a Traditional Roman Catholic, you have got this exactly correct. My maternal grandfather's uncle was S. S. Pivs PP. XII, and I completely agree with you. This is an excellent and 100% correct video of Tolkien's beliefs. I just hope, Prof. Tolkien got the chance to continue going to the Traditional Mass, where it was still said with special Papal consent through the local Bishop. The Traditional Mass, which has never been stopped, was just limited to Epicopal consent with Papal permission until 2006. Of course, now you can go almost anywhere, in the United States and Europe and find a Roman Catholic Church where the Traditional Mass is still said. It's gotten a big resurgence since S. S. Benedictvs PP. XVI stated it was never abrogated and can be said if people express the wish to have it rather than the Mass of S. S. Pavlvs PP. VI. Surprisingly, the attendees are 80+ years old or 18-45 years old. The latter group being a huge surprise to the Church. They can't understand why the Traditional Mass was so strictly limited until S. S. Benedictvs PP. XVI brought it back more freely. I understand Tolkien's feelings as I speak and am fluent in 9 languages, including Latin. My grandfather's uncle S. S. Pivs PP. XII said, "The Day the Church abandons her Universal Tongue will be the Day before she returns to the Catacombs!" He was right. Thank you for this video. It's wonderful!! Dr. Gennaro Giammarino, III

[@gotogd1233]

We shouldn't be surprised that Tolkien had an adorable faithful grandpa who loved The Church !

[@PadraigTomas]

Where did you hear this? It was my understanding that Tolkien's mother converted to Catholicism after she was widowed, and was promptly ostracized by both sides of her family.

[@_brunolima]

@@PadraigTomas I think he was talkiing about Simon.

[@Juan-gn8nm]

As a catholic who read tolkien several times and ALSO HIS LETTERS, I can say without a shread of doubt that he DID NOT OPPOSE VATICAN II, but rather some applications of it. Respect the memory of a man who fought for unity in the church, and opposed leavnig it.

[@nicklowe_]

Just out of curiosity, can you give an example

[@TheMrLappis]

We can oppose the Council, and remain Catholic. You can REJECT the council and still remain Catholic. Pope Paul VI said so - it's a pastoral council, not a dogmatic one. Vatican II led to the death and damnation of millions, if not billions of souls.

[@williamj-t2n]

He was not opposed to Vatican 2.

[@tomthx5804]

Thank you, Juan. You speak the truth. The nutty SSPX's who are here commenting and claiming Tolkien as one of their heretics are not correct, and lying as they usually do.

[@johnschuh8616]

He opposed what became known as “the Spirit of Vatican II”. It was revolutionary in nature and was able to proceed because Paul VI was the liberal pope who allowed it to proceed even as it got more and more out of his control. He was like PIUS IX who began his reign by encouraging liberal reforms in the Papal States, only to see violence break out and saw violence institigated by Italian Natiionists break out. Shocked, he then reacted strongly and became an opppont of the Spirit of 1848. Incidentally the most radical expressions of Church reform occurred in 1968, also a revolutionarty year The present pope is a product of that era, as were John Paul II and Benedict XVI, But they reacted against the Marxist elements, while Pope Francis like most Jesuits split on the matter,

[@SoldadoCatolico]

Honestly you are very brave for kicking this hornet's nest 🙏 Tolkien's views on what constitutes "conciliatory entertainment" are my personal guide when consuming any media.

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

I love finding out more about Tolkien's views, thank you!

[@gandalfolorin-kl3pj]

Dear Ink: You do well to quote directly from Tolkien. You do not do well to try to interpret what Tolkien means. We understand Tolkien much better when we read what he actually said and understand that he did not know the arguments of Archbishop Lefebvre or Michael Davies. If someone had explained why Traditionalists are part of the Church, I believe Tolkien would have joined more fully with those who hold fast to what the Church has always taught and practiced. But he did well with what he had. Good work. God bless.

[@JunkWaxHaven]

There is a letter in "The Letters of JRR Tolkien" where he writes to his son, Michael I believe this son became a Priest or was studying for the priesthood. Tolkien emphasized his deep commitment to the Church, even amidst the changes brought about by Vatican II, which some Catholics found challenging.

[@wolemai]

Tolkien was a devout Caholic, a very intelligent man, a great scholar and a brilliant linguist. Because of this he naturally questioned what was going on at Vatican Two. He realised not all was well. He realised that great harm might be being done to his beloved Church. Turns out all his fears were justified.

[@KeithJeffries-w4k]

The significant changes in the liturgy of the Mass by Vatican Two have destroyed the very essence of Catholic worship🎉

[@donaldlippert6374]

Tolkien - a very wise and insightful man.

[@anniethompson1041]

I attend the TLM and it is incredibly sacred and beautiful, a very different experience from the new Mass.

[@ronaldmessina4229]

@Anniethompson My dear Madame, I most certainly do agree with u, because the so-called mass of giovanni batista & annibele bulgani has w/o a doubt caused very much damage to the Roman Catholic Church & to the manner of the language in which the mass is celebrated & these 2 men, along with some 7 protestant ministers tried to abrogate all of the sacred traditions and the way that the mass is being celebrated & in the church ⛪️ in which I have to attend the novus ordo mass, there are now even (alter girls) , who are at the (table). where the priest is going to celebrate the novus ordo mass? If one can call 📞 the name a Catholic mass, & there is no longer a Traditional altar, but everything is modern, & when my wife & I watch the mass? From Knoc, Ireland 🇮🇪 the same thing happens, a very modern mass, & , thank GOD, there are still some Traditional Catholic Masses, but one has to search 🔦 for them & know the route to take in order to arrive at the correct time, & I do NOT believe in all of the changes wrought about by the above ⬆️ mentioned men who are now dead ☠️, but their faulty teachings are still with the church ⛪️, How horrible!!😢😢😢😢😊

[@anniethompson1041]

@@ronaldmessina4229 I very much agree with all you say, and I pray you and your wife will find a traditional Latin Mass near you soon 🙏

[@robertcain3426]

Temples, priests and altrrs are not relevant in the new covenant through Christ, as taught through the apostles teaching, the foundation of the true and living universal church which is the sum of all believers.

[@anniethompson1041]

@@robertcain3426 Amen. The Body of Our Lord is our universal temple.

[@tomthx5804]

After going to both for many years, I agree that the Latin Mass has something special, but a well done Novus Ordo can be just as good. Thankfully, a lot of the Novus Ordos have been improved recently, and they now are quite good. Once they dropped the shrieking single lady singer raising her hand, and installed a choir that sang sacred latin songs at the novus ordo, it got a hundred times better.

[@aloyalcatholic5785]

Having studied this issue in depth and being a 'traditionalist' catholic myself, I can say JRR Tolkien was absolutely correct in his positions. Including his sense of a need of a loyalty and the emotional dissonance that it entails. That is the result of such a rupture from the longstanding truth.

[@navienslavement]

You either 1) go full V2 (forsake) 2) go EC (protest) 3) go TLM (lament) 4) go EO (wake up)

[@karlmurphy6441]

Ww❤

[@MikolajKonarski]

Dear video author, as a Roman Catholic, I thank you for your tact.

[@SolveEtCoagula93]

Thank you for this. It served as a fascinating insight into both Tolkien and Vatican II. If I am honest, I know very little about either and this video opened my eyes a great deal. I learnt a great deal and am intrigued to explore a little deeper. Many thanks.

[@pvlgs]

Reminds me of Evelyn Waugh diatribe vs Vatican 2, albeit somewhat more polite.

[@nathaniellathy6559]

😂

[@phatnoir1986]

It is interesting that he could see the issue with 'primitiveness' being a reflection of ignorance, but could not fathom his beliefs themselves being 'primitive'.

[@nzajflynn]

Thank God we still have the traditional Latin mass. It is as perfect as it always was, Eucharist on the tongue, and singing the salve Regina at the end of mass. So beautiful and so reverent.

[@Pacdoc-Oz]

Jesus spoke Aramaic, at the last supper he sat at table, not with his back to his disciples, there was no Gregorian chant, or incense or bells. The Eucharist is not opera, ballet or a concert and the Crucifixion is at the core

[@nzajflynn]

@Pacdoc-oz I didn't claim it was anything you listed. But it is the mass that was performed for every saint, unchanged for nearly 2000 years, it is the most reverent and it does effect you. The Eucharist loses its true place as the Centre of the mass when un ordained hands pass it around like candy. Christianity is faith and tradition. To lose the tradition is an obvious attack on the faith. You only have to look at the fruits of Novus or do to know that we went off course like the church has done in the passed. Changing the tradition will be viewed similar to the Arian heresy in the future.

[@williamj-t2n]

⁠​⁠@@nzajflynn Unchanged for 2000 years!?

[@poordoubloon10]

​@@williamj-t2nYeah... the supper Jesus celebrated in the upper room, in Tridentine Latin. kinda deluded.

[@bsb1975]

Jesus never spoke Latin. It's the language of Roman conquerors. Taking away the Latin demystifes the religion, dragging it down to earth with the mortals. Where it belongs. The Word of God is for everyone, not just for those who speak the right languages. Otherwise, they're just parroting words in a spooky language they don't understand. That's why Islam's so spooky and backwards by Western standards. Do you think an average Indonesian Muslim understands Arabic?

[@georgerafa5041]

such a profoundly wise artist, author, and theologian. Loyalty is easy when you aren't tempted. The last line in that last letter at 9:16 is so incredibly true. Hold fast, brothers and sisters.

[@anthonymccarthy4164]

The change to saying Mass in the vernacular did more for the Christianization of countless Catholics than can ever be measured. Tolkien was typical of the majority of "traditionalists" in that they aren't much interested in Christianity but are obsessed with their own aesthetic preferences. I've argued this with myriads of "traditionalists" who are so ignorant of the history of the Catholic Church that a. they didn't know that the Kyrie was said in Greek and that in the earliest centuries of the Catholic Church, the Mass was said in Greek and that no less than one of the early Popes opposed the change to saying it in Latin. It's a supreme irony that the most popular Eucharistic Prayer, the most sacred part of the Mass, in both Latin and the Vernacular was written by him IN GREEK.

[@williamj-t2n]

@@anthonymccarthy4164 Finally, a sensible response.

[@westtex3675]

Idiotic take. The difference in language is not even close to the biggest issue traditionalists have with the novus ordo mass. There is way more to it than aesthetics. & Church numbers (vocations, etc) have been plummeting ever since V2 & the liturgy changes.

[@samuelsmith5400]

I never understood the obsession with Latin mass when Latin was never the language used by the early church, Catholic itself derived from the Greek Katholikos (universal)

[@westtex3675]

@samuelsmith5400 You are not well-informed on the subject. The language is the least of the differences between the TLM & the Novus Ordo. There wouldn’t be nearly the problems/resistance that there was if the N.O. kept everything else the same and simply translated the latin into vernacular.

[@jerryczarski5991]

I look at it this way. The Apostles celebrated in Aramaic. The Apostolic Fathers celebrated in Coptic, Syriac, Greek and Latin. Language is fluid. Understanding the great truths is what is important.

[@SoldadoCatolico]

Pretty sure there's an encyclical that says that just because something used to be done in the past doesn't mean it's correct to do it now. For example in the past Christians used to take the Holy Host home in a little box, but that is forbidden now.

[@noldo3837]

There is an old protestant joke: "God does not speak Latin very well."

[@Safe-and-effective]

People who object to the changes, do so not just on the grounds of language, but in the alteration of the liturgy, something which 60 years on (and no matter how well-intentioned) was a devastating mistake. But still, there is something to be said about language. Imagine going to Brazil, the Philippines or Malta and finding the same rite done in the same language. You could do that until the reforms of the 1960s. After all, "Catholic" means universal, and how can the faith be Universal if everywhere you go it is practiced differently?

[@Deathbytroll]

The Latin issue isn’t just about the language but the orientation of the entire church. Latin as the liturgical language was vigorously defended by the Catholics for centuries and suddenly the church decided it was just a nice suggestion. The Catholics did a 180 on so many things in the decades following Vatican 2 that it’s an implicit admission of it being wrong in all its doctrines and practices which is a devastating thing for people who look to the Church for tradition. The Church collapsed in the face of not just external pressure but also chaos from within. dropping Latin was just a huge signifier of that chaos

[@canalettov]

Coming from a Catholic, trust me, it's not only about the language. It's about an entire rite...

[@daniel8181]

Finally, a video that isnt fucking clickbait

[@keithrobert5117]

V2 wanted the Church to be viewed (henceforth) in the light of the modern world. But, instead, a profound darkness descended. Tolkien created a folk memory for the entire world so that we could all begin to see just what it was we had lost. And he is only, of course, becoming more and more important as we obsessively go back to the place where it all went wrong. A first class video, thank you.

[@shanegoldberg9896]

As a non Catholic, this is confuses me, not being confrontational, it’s a genuine thought - it seems to me that tradition is fundamental in Catholicism, but Latin wasn’t the “traditional” early church language? Seems odd to die on a hill of Latin in the church in the name of tradition, but if we’re going to be sincere in our “traditionalist” view then surely he’d be urging the use of ancient Hebrew or Ancient Greek, Aramaic or some language like that? I’m by no means a theologian or Catholic scholar, but a lot of “tradition” in the church, at least to me doesn’t seem traditional in the sense of anything that existed in the time of Peter? Probably a very naïve thought/question and I’d be interested to know the take of someone more educated than me! God bless

[@thejoshuaproject3809]

You're correct, the original languages are ancient Hebrew, Koine Greek, and Aramaic. The apostle Peter wouldn't even recognize modern Roman Catholicism, They're just being nostalgic for their particular church that developed its traditions over many centuries.

[@poordoubloon10]

​@@thejoshuaproject3809Bingo. Tridentine Rite Roman Catholicism as a codified tradition is roughly only 500 years old in its current form. The use of Latin is about a 1000 years old and exclusive to the West. By no means is TLM Catholicism representative of the "original form."

[@Corvus001]

You know it might be that Latin was the language of the Roman Empire and all the scholars, historians, and clerics would have understood it, taught it, and spoke it. And that all the Church Fathers used it, to note one of many was St. Jerome who spearheaded the Vulgate Bible. St. Augustine, even St. Clement and all the other early Church Fathers. And also was one of the languages inscribed above the head of Jesus Christ on the Cross, one of four, which gives it weight too!

[@PeloquinDavid]

To use a non-Latin word: Amen! The earliest churches arose in primarily Greek, Aramaic and Coptic-speaking areas of the eastern parts of the Roman Empire. Its main early promoter outside of Judea (Paul) was a Greek-speaking Pharisee of apocalyptic views; the whole New Testament was written in Greek; and it wasn't until the late-4th century that the canonical Christian scriptures were even translated into Latin... The Latin Church I was raised in (though I'm barely old enough to remember the shift from Latin to the vernacular) was a relative latecomer. That Latin became and remained the language of the church in the Latin-speaking West of the Empire is hardly surprising, particularly given its role during the Middle Ages and the fact that Latin remained the lingua franca among the educated elites of Western Europe well into the modern period. But a millennium and a half is a LONG time and it made no sense (once Latin ceased being Europe's lingua franca) to continue using Latin in dealing with ordinary parishioners - well over 90% of whom couldn't understand a word of it...

[@johnschuh8616]

It was traditional in that it was promulgated at the order or Pius V in the 1560. And was uniform in every Roman Rite Church in the world. Further it was a radical, top down reform suddenly. imposed on the faithful. suddenly. I know that many, many older Catholics were shocked by it. Many of them just stopped going to mass. The worst kind of clericalism. This on top of the ending of many popular devotions and practices. The authoritarianism reminded me of the reforms of the Church of England after Henry VIII broke with Rome. Mind you I liked the 1962 English language version of the old Mass. This was not done for “the people” but a few priests.

[@matthouser7112]

As a Protestant (born into Catholic Church), Tolkien is one of the most intelligent, persuasive voices for Catholicism. I especially respect his commitment to truth, even if people would misunderstand him and label him wrongly for it. I even appreciate his willingness to do something that would be uncomfortable for others because truth and the integrity of the church was that important to him. He really seems to have the spirit of the early apostles who didn’t avoid conflict themselves so that they could preserve the purity and integrity of the church. Would love to have more of this man’s courage and commitment to truth

[@johnschuh8616]

We seldom look at the Reformation in its historical context. It almost fatality divided Christendom in the face a huge Turkish onslaught. In his fanaticism Luther came to equate the Papacy and the Turkish Sultans as equally enemies of Christ.

[@LegitimateMan]

The Catholic faith is the most beautiful and precious thing in the world

[@pauldang7014]

Another great video! This is why I like Tolkien so much!

[@drdelaur]

Christina, you are doing a fabulous job. Keep it up.

[@fernandobiasi5013]

Tolkien really would be proud of how the Church is going in this century, trully, the banalization of the Liturgy teached catholics to value what is most sacred, the Holy Mass, and now the more reverent and traditional liturgies are filled with young people and vocations. In the end, Christ will allways be King.

[@TheAmosTree]

Proud of apostasy? I think not

[@AntCamLola]

Today, the Roman Catholic Church blesses the unity of two male or two female

[@jurgenjung4302]

Christus brauchte keine Kirche/Vatikan.

[@baselius662]

​@ORTHODOXWOMENMINISTRY No, the Church does not bless the sexual union of same sex individuals. People who seek a blessing may receive one, including if they are homosexual. But in no way does Francis entail a blessing ceremony akin to marriage for same-sex couples, he explicitly speaks against it.

[@baselius662]

​@@TheAmosTree widespread liturgical abuse, yes. Laxity in the laity and clergy yes. Apostasy of the Church, no.

[@fluffymainecoon1953]

As, what some have styled, a traditional Catholic, his statement about the refuge now feeling like a trap resonates with exceptional force. It reminds me of the words of Peter: "Lord, to whom shall we go?"

[@dallascopp4798]

The Catholic Predicament: Listen and Obey even when you fundamentally think and know the church is wrong in their judgment, decisions, and declarations. Ie: There are no contradictions in Church teachings, and if you find one, you are mistaken. It is just a paradox you can’t mentally comprehend and must submit to.

[@freealter]

“There are no contradictions in church teachings” bro this sounds like an abusive parent

[@dallascopp4798]

@ You’re not wrong. It stems from the idea that the Catholic church must be obeyed at all times and speaking out in certain circumstances is morally wrong, even when you disagree with the church strongly. It also stems from the ideas and declarations from pope cannot ever be wrong when he is speaking “ex cathedra” or from the throne of Christ. And that Church councils can never be wrong in their declarations, except the ones that the Catholic Church deem not official and don’t count because they declared the opposite of what a later council declared. The primary example is the Council of Hieria which condemned praying to icons (statues, paintings and altars) and praying to/through the saints. But was then overturned by the 2nd council of Nicaea which called them heretical and invalid. And Catholics today say Hieria definitely doesn’t count since it was just a “regional council” and was not attended or called by the Pope. But they also ignore the 1st Council of Nicaea was not attended by nor called by the Pope.

[@orderofst.francisofassisi115]

Fantastic video! I remember when I first found out that Tolkien was Catholic and later finding out how his Catholicism shaped his literary works. With that said, and what was said in the video concerning the antiquarian changes of Vatican II, I am reminded of Gandalf's words to Saurman in the "Fellowship of the Ring": "He who would destroy a thing merely to see how it works, has left the path of wisdom." His analogy of the "seed growing into a tree" is one the best I have heard. Thank you again for the video. Long live Christ the King!

[@minnihd6470]

These issues are what drove me to attend the Traditional Latin Mass earlier this month. I was a luke warm cradle catholic and only ever went to mass on christmas. A bit over a year ago I started going to the NO after half a year of being pulled towards the Church again. After my first real Easter this year, which was filled with tradition including Gregorian chants, I was left with a hole, because I wished that every normal mass could be a fraction this solemn like easter was, which put me in a "faith chrisis" because I knew there can be more to mass than what I experience each Sunday. So I attended my first TLM by the FSSP on All Saints Day, granted, I was really confused what was going on and all that, but it was a great experience. I will definetly attend again. I was especially suprised, how many young people there were. I read that this was the case, but I have never seen such a healthy percentage of young people and families with kids in Mass, except maybe on Christmas.

[@PeloquinDavid]

Tolkien was very traditional in all things. As a survivor of the Great War, he had a (possibly inevitable) preference for all things pre-modern - and for a golden age that never was. I dearly love the lore in his writings but cannot help but roll my eyes at his glorification of monarchy and at the very black-and-white nature of his moral universe.

[@ciprianotrajanojr.2958]

Vatican II is JUDAS council

[@susannestorm9705]

No not VAT II , but what came after! I think Good Pope John would have been horrified at what happened afterwards!

[@fulviab]

As a Catholic faithful to the millennial Tradition of the Church, I thank you for this video that makes me love Professor Tolkien even more. Thank you.

[@pl6867]

In the recently publish book, 'Mount Doom, The Prophecy of Tolkien Revealed", where Tolkien's mythology is completely explained, The White Tree (of Gondor) is revealed as the TLM.

[@JanPBtest]

Vaticanum II made the classic mistake of losing the certainty of its being a leader and choosing to become a follower instead (of fashion). This sort of thing is incredibly and distressingly common.

[@ofidiotabagista5259]

Traditionalist here. Nice video.

[@JelMain]

The Eucharistic element came from the support he received from John Henry Newman's Birmingham Oratory, itself an English voice for Anna de Meeus' Eucharistic Renewal movement in Francophonia. That vocation came with her first convent, based on a chapel erected in the 1430s to give physical foundation for the Devotio Moderna, a first step away from the pagan hybrid we still celebrate in so many carols, in the Churches' refusal to recognise the dating errors in the base chronology of our culture, and much more.

[@AleadaA]

Latin was a common language for the church so all who attended would pray the same no matter who they were and what language they spoke at home or how far they traveled - btw the Devil Hates Latin!

[@timothypeterson4781]

Why in the world would the Devil care what language you use?

[@cafecomescrita]

​@@timothypeterson4781because the Devil knows and remembers. Latin was his chosen language, and God took it from him. It was used in the cross that killed Christ and then used at the heart of the Christian world for more than millenia. And exorcists agree: the Devil does hate latin.

[@HeadsFullOfEyeballs]

@@cafecomescrita Pretty sure he didn't speak Latin to Eve in Paradise.

[@michaelnewsham1412]

Like the way the Quran can not be translated from Arabic.

[@deutschermichel5807]

​@@michaelnewsham1412 it can. But Muslim preacher pretend like it canʼt so non-Arabs canʼt expose them

[@andrewstehlik3917]

Tolkien in Catholicism and CSLewis in Anglicanism - their admirers don’t recognise how reactionary traditionalists they were. Their books are their wet dreams about returning to an idealized medieval times (which never really were like that).

[@andrewstehlik3917]

Well, I admit, I am Presbyterian.

[@lvcaslemos]

As a devout Roman Catholic, Tolkien was faithful to the Church even when its authorities were not - well, 60 years have passed since Vatican II and we are still living through the crisis that erupted with the council. For those of you who are reading this and are not Catholic or are not a Catholic who is attentive to the "signs of the times", the Church is currently going through its worst crisis (even the Arian one!), Peter doubted again, the council with its aggiornamento brought the world into the Church and the prince of this world too (the Devil), that is why the amount of liturgical abuses, of doctrinal confusion today, is not just a defect of a part of the men of the Church, but of a whole following a primer laid down by the council: Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité, freedom for religious freedom, the source of ecumenism that says that "all religions lead to God" - so why were there martyrs? Combating heresies? Or even the death of Christ on the cross? Tolkien's faith, and ours, would be in vain - equality between the clergy and the faithful, between bishops and priests, and ultimately between the pope and the bishops, all of this through collegiality, and finally, the fraternity of all religions, be they all different, like Hindu and Christian, all worship the same God (blasphemy!), hence "ecumenism", the old free-manson ideal. Understand, all of this was seen by Tolkien, who lived in the eye of the storm at the time, these things shake the Church to this day and are the cause of the entire current crisis, it is not just a question of Latin or not, that is very superficial, although Tolkien, as he lived as an eyewitness to these events, did not have the same understanding as we do today, 60 years after the facts (historical advantage), we reap and know the values and flavors of the fruits that came from modernism, which took the Second Vatican Council, which was condemned by Saint Pius X: the apostasy of the Church. Yes, Tolkien would be considered, as he was in his time, a traditionalist and, perhaps, a faithful member of the Society of Saint Pius X today. To realize that the Church, which Tolkien loved so much, is attacked even by its authorities, from the lowest to the highest, the Pope, is not a sign of rebellion or insubordination, but of fidelity to the Church of all time, of all centuries, which does not change with time, but which is eternal like its Lord. But, as he said: "I think there is nothing to do but to pray, for the Church, the Vicar of Christ, and for ourselves; and meanwhile to exercise the virtue of loyalty, which indeed only becomes a virtue when one is under pressure to desert it".

[@grahamluna6935]

Thank you and God bless

[@Pacdoc-Oz]

No. The places which are losing believers are the Western Europeans and North Americans corrupted by power, wealth and easy living. Decadent. The faith is blooming in Africa and South America and many third world countries.

[@MrT-un6py]

AMEN X 7 THINK TRUTH

[@johnschuh8616]

Ironically Pope Francis has done more to tell us than any theologian to teach us a narrower understanding of papal infallibility. For anyone who wondered why Pope Benedict still wore white and why he stayed in Rome becomes clear. It kept the new guy from doing a lot of the stuff he is now doing.

[@TomCarberry413]

You said at one point, "all things considered," the title of a collection of essays by G.K. Chesterton, another devout Catholic and contemporary of Tolkien.

[@1TakoyakiStore]

I feel sorry for Tolkien. He must've thought that the Catholic Church was the one constant in his life that wouldn't change in any significant way and yet it did. I also must commend him for not blaming it on any specific person or institution. He could have very easily done so.

[@Safe-and-effective]

To be fair, I don't think anyone knew about Annibale Bugnini and his pals back then.

[@erichodge567]

This very well done. Thank you.

[@yolobuck2553]

Tolkien was right. The 60s really were a social turning point for the world that has brought us to men and women are interchangeable

[@joaquimluz5979]

Thank you for this video!

[@el-sig2249]

Tolkien's reaction was typical of the devout Catholic. More recently we have Mel Gibson, another high profile catholic who doesn't tolerate the crap of V2.

[@marbellaotaiza801]

Wait till the crap of the synodal Church comes raining down on us...

[@el-sig2249]

@@marbellaotaiza801 Sadly, it's already happening.

[@marbellaotaiza801]

@@el-sig2249 yes, it's very sad.

[@fabianradomski3178]

He's a sedeprivationist.

[@marbellaotaiza801]

@@fabianradomski3178 alright, I'll bite. What's a sedeprivationist?

[@laiquende9971]

Catholics are hilarious to me when they start behaving like Protestants. “Don’t like the teaching of the magisterium? Welp…I don’t see a pointy hat on your head so…..that’s not really up to you is it?”

[@TheLeonhamm]

The easiest - if not the best - manner in which to approach Tolkien's difficulties with the hi-jinks rapidly unfolding before his eyes (and others, my own included) is the radical (to the roots) dismantling of the Catholic way of life - a seismic shift proposed by 'experts' set free to interpret the agreed texts issued at the Second Vatican Council. Here, the Roman Rite (in its various forms) was treated as though a plaything, indeed as a blank slate onto which all kinds of new stuff could be placed - language (in type .. formal or familiar, mystical or vulgar, Roman or National, etc) was the first significant arena of .. conflict .. with Sacred Tradition (a decidedly disturbing concept to Post Reformation Catholics, but 'change' was very much the popular mood of that now long-gone moment). For Catholics, as officially and authoritatively reaffirmed in the mid-20th-century, the Church is the mystical Bride of Christ, at One with Him, in Person .. not a collection of, nor a set of collections of people who think the same thing (aka a social club); so how could anyone, even a passing pope, hope to tinker with that reality (as perceived) and imagine that it would be the same - let alone have it grubbed up branch and root, fruit and seed (as expert advice and chicanery was imposing) and yet still have yesterday, today and each tomorrow unchanged ... It is this totally unnecessary and deleterious dilemma that has not yet been resolved. Pope Francis, for instance, affirms that neither dogma nor doctrine has changed, nor can be changed, nor will be changed .. then sets about trying to hack away all that displeases him, to replace it with - progress (?) And there you meet the oddity addressed by Tolkien (and the rest of us) .. in removing this bit and that bit, and therefore requiring the wholesale reworking of all the bits interlaced with it, then replacing the hollowed-out gaps with funny-putty, plastic, sealing wax and show-time, or an anime cartoon, does not make a stable construction nor even a workable piece of Heath Robinson conflabulated whimsey ... Keep the Faith; tell the truth, shame the devil, and let the demons shriek. God bless. ;o) So you are presented with two liturgies .. which one is what you understand to be Catholic (Roman, Byzantine, Coptic, Russian etc) : .. from KZbin Automate and SIMPLIFY Worship Tech (Client Case Study) - Churchfront or THIS is the Latin Mass - Mass of Ages Note well: here are the actual forms of the Mass as i) received and ii) (more or less) handed on at the Second Vatican Council : St John Cantius: Latin Mass and Novus Ordo | Side by Side - Altare Dei How then did the Catholic Church arrive at the format of a truly reverent but not especially careful imitation of the professionally excellent Churchfront type of pop music offering Catholic Mass Today I Daily Holy Mass I Sunday November 3 2024 I English Holy Mass I 5.00 AM - Amen Halleluia or Holy Mass I Malayalam Mass I November 6 I Wednesday I Qurbana I 6.45 AM - Divine Mercy Daily News Note well: these last two liturgies are, we are reliably informed, exactly the self-same Mass as seen at St John Cantius .. and, believe it or not, we have no reason to doubt it (other than our senses, our sense of mystery, and the manner of faith once understood by Tolkien).

[@glishev]

My favourite part which I believe I read in Carpenter's biography of Tolkien's was that Tolkien LOUDLY answered in Latin to the priest's Vatican II English during Mass

[@jorge28624]

For not being Catholic you painted a pretty good picture of the issue at the time. That said,: I invite you to become a Catholic and visit your nearest chapel run by the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X.

[@jfurl5900]

I could never enjoy any of the lord of the rings stuff even though I like fantasy stories as a rule , or at least I did when younger. Tolkein's liking for the catholic church and especially his adherence to the Latin language explains a lot to me .

[@ColasTeam]

I always knew Tolkien's problem with Vatican II would ultimately come down to some linguistic matter, but nonetheless I feel like ive learned a bit from this video, tho it seems to me that his gripes with it are the usual gripes of traditionalist: a vague fear that change might be bad that they can hardly articulate. Many people in these comments seem to be of the same kin. Many Americans too by the sound of it, a country where I perceived Catholicism has become a refuge for people of such believes, and which in many ways I perceive to bring with them their protestant overall culture into the vatican. As someone from a fervent catholic country (and the homeland of pope Francis) I see reforms to bring the church up to date and to keep it relatable with younger people to be good, ofc, there is im sure a scenario where reform can make the church less true to itself, but I do not believe that has happened. The churches here are always full, faith is the one thing universally strong even when politics divide us, and I think that making mass more accessible rather than gatekeeping it is the reason for that :)

[@SoldadoCatolico]

Bergoglio es el falso profeta capo

[@jeannehall6546]

Really the Mass should be done in Anglish- which is English the way it may have developed if the Norman Conquest never happened. Anglish avoids words with Latin, French and Greek origins. It’s more clean (pure)! Latin is overrated and English is corrupt!

[@Safe-and-effective]

I really have to ask you about what you mean by "gatekeeping"? When first Spanish, then Portuguese and French colonizers converted almost the entire continent of America to Catholicism, what language do you think they were using in the mass? When Catholic missionaries went to the ends of the Earth, to Africa, the Middle East, Asia and Oceania and gained millions of converts across the globe, what language do you think they were using in the mass? Sure, you could try to make an argument about Latin being an obstacle for people to convert to Catholicism, but the facts of history prove that idea to be completely false.

[@franciscasilva8406]

@@Safe-and-effective But most people didn't understand what was being said in mass. In Portugal we 'joke' about the murmur of old ladies praying the rosary during mass, because they were never taught Latin and how to respond and so they prayed what they actually knew and meant. I think that having Mass in vulgar languages is an amazing thing. I can't really understand how the Catholic Church was so negligent for so many centuries to the simple people that also make her up, not giving them the possibility of knowing and understanding the meaning of the words that make up Liturgy and the Eucharist.

[@Safe-and-effective]

@@franciscasilva8406 While I do understand your point, I do not share it. Making things more accessible doesn't necessarily make them better. If the effect of Vatican II had been a soaring number of converts, vocations for priests and nuns, of the number of Church buildings growing exponentially, we would not even be having this conversation. Do you not agree? I don't like to make comparisons, but you do know that Hindus to this day pray in Sanskrit and Jews in Classical Hebrew. Rather than turning themselves into Sanskrit and Hebrew scholars, they retain the desire to deepen their understanding of their faith. And lucky for them that no one in the Synagogue nor in the Hindu Temple is trying to make their ways more "accessible" because, unlike the Modernist Church, they actually respect their roots, they are not completely insane and realize that tampering with their traditions will bring devastating results. Perhaps they see us Catholics as a cautionary tale. Who knows? I mean, there are thousands of languages in India alone. Can you imagine how impractical it would be to have every single vernacular variant....anyways, I'm not here to talk about Hinduism or Judaism. As a Catholic it is truly jaw-dropping how many fellow Catholics are so quick to toss two thousand years of our sacred traditions in the garbage for the sake of "convenience" or any other retarded excuse.

[@envee1014]

I think Tolkien is a reborn version of St. John Henry Newman 😄. This is for several reasons, to include how their lives were only separate by two years, but your note about how Tolkien viewed of the Church as a “living organism” is nearly identical to Newman’s teaching. If you haven’t heard about Newman before, I encourage you to look him up. It’s ironic, though, because Newman was disappointed in the seemingly stagnant state of Vatican as he became a priest, while Tolkien was disappointed about its sudden diversion from the past.

[@gerardsotxoa]

Tolkien's tutor, the one converted his mother and him to catholicism, was a spanish priest who was the personal assistant of Cardenal Newman.

[@hexahexametermeter]

Newman was dishonest in his reinterpretation of the 39 Articles to sound "Roman Catholic". He opened the door to fast and loose interpretations of language so they could mean anything you wanted them to. He opened the door to relativism. He also had he best male "friend" of his exhumed to be buried with him forever. That is not a normal person, my friends.

[@AleadaA]

Never should have happened - dumbing down the mass - from a sacrifice to a dinner celebration - now look at the chaos the church has become - shameful - go to the SSPX and know the real Roman Catholic Church!

[@indigohammer5732]

The Veneration of human sacrifice remains it's basis, so it's poison for idiots

[@andrefernandes765]

This is an excellent video. Very well done, the video very accurately conveys Tolkein's true sentiments on the matter of Vatican 2 in an unbiased manner. Frankly, it was a necessary decision for the Church to undertake Vatican 2 - even if the Pharisees **cough** I mean some traditionalists within the Church despise it. I do sympathise with Tolkein, for his own personal faith, it would have been devastating... and I respect his faithfulness in the Church despite how he felt.

[@Cody-5501]

I don’t know about the other things but it is important that people actually understand what they’re being taught. Local languages are something that is necessary to properly teach the gospel. Moreover we should remember that many of the earliest Protestant denominations started with simply wanting the Bible in a language they understand so everyone could understand the Word of God. Moreover Latin is just what the local language when the Catholic Church started. The language was always arbitrary local languages just make more sense. I won’t speak on other parts as I am a Protestant and despite my respect for them I don’t fully understand some of Catholic practices that other churches do not practice or the practices that I don’t agree with.

[@jackrabbitping]

How does the guy who put clinging on with dogma in a such a poignant way with the mustard seed and tree not see that most religions were doing the same thing as did he?

[@gavinfoley103]

Vatican II ended Catholicism.

[@CrayDave]

No faith in Jesus Christ huh? The one who established the Catholic Church on Peter saying you are my rock and upon this rock I will build my church... he did... its in Rome ... Where the Catholic Church is exactly. Also saying the gates of hell would not prevail against the church. The lack of faith in Jesus to guide his flock despite changes in liturgy or rites of ordination is crazy. Jesus has even provided miracles in the N.O proving he did not abandon his church despite changes.

[@Myohomoto]

The outcome of VII certainly has challenged us. But I believe in the Remnant.

[@otakubullfrog1665]

I do think that having a common language for all believers around the world would be valuable, the problem is that I don't even think this was the case before Vatican II. Many Catholics from my parents' generation freely admit that they just recited Latin prayers and hymns from memory and that they studied Latin as little as they could in school and don't remember much of it.

[@cpegg5840]

Priests should always be facing east toward Jerusalem and have the congregation at their back. How Novus Ordo priests see no issue in facing west toward the congregation and having the altar at their back is astounding...

[@rafiki1017]

It’s up to the church to decide such things. Facing either way doesn’t invalidate the Mass. Facing east is a symbol for facing God. Key word: symbol.

[@captainskippy4560]

​@@rafiki1017 Exactly

[@thetruth-bf6je]

St John looked up at Jesus on the cross not with his back to him, The Mass is this sacrifice which we are brought to .The bus driver does not face the passengers when he is driving the bus.🙏🙏🇮🇪.

[@deutschermichel5807]

​@@thetruth-bf6jebut God is everywhere.

[@m1santhropist410]

@deutschermichel5807 that would make Christianity a panteism, which it isn't. God is not everywhere, He is the Creator of the universe, meaning hHe's separated from it, out of space and time. He dwells in Eternity, being Eternal and Infinite Himself. He is not somewhere or everywhere or nowhere either, He just is.

[@Mi-bi6ez]

No one anticipated the outcomes of the Vat II Ecumenism, including Tolkien. "New evangelization" was frequently mentioned in the letters of bishops and popes.

[@paulvmarks]

The decline of the Catholic Church has vindicated Tolkien - a universal language was replaced by a Tower of Babel. There can not be an international church without a common language for the most sacred parts of it. Although the signs of harm go back before Vatican II - back to the changes in the Easter service from 1954 onwards.

[@danielsan901998]

If you think that latin is the universal language, then you don't understand the story of the Tower of Babel.

[@gerardsotxoa]

@@danielsan901998 it's universal (catholic).

[@Pacdoc-Oz]

Babel curse scattered them in confusion - multilingual teaching of the faith and the law and the participation in the same liturgy worldwide is turning the tide on the curse It is absurd to identify the unity of believers based on unity of language - "one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and father of all" is the foundation unity. You sound as if you miss being able to curse the perfidious Jew during Eastertide. Evil.

[@RoyalKnightVIII]

Ok so start communicating in Latin, were people outside of the clergy even able to understand Latin beyond few phrases?

[@gerardsotxoa]

@@RoyalKnightVIII no, but not understandig actually made people to start reflexive thinking on what they were mumbling. And every catholic could attend the holly mass in any country and easily see ''one church''.

[@gustavtracchia1341]

I was an altar boy before Vatican II. My missal had parallel translation from Latin to Spanish, my mother tongue. Therefore, it is lie that people couldn't understand the mass. The other was that the priest officing mass was given the back to the congregation, was also a lie. We all were facing the altar, together with the priest. Finally, my mother used to say that before Vatican II, regardless in the country you were visiting, you always can go to mass since Latin was the language of the mass. Thank you for the video.

[@mordraynlachant271]

Proud to be Catholic, forever.

[@jeromemckenna7102]

Even if I disagree with some of what Tolkien thought, I understand his ideas better after hearing this.

[@Churchmilitant67]

I am of the opinion that the REASON behind the second Vatican Council was to make the Catholic Church more protestant.

[@Safe-and-effective]

Initially, yes. But the long game was to bring about the destruction of the Church. Sure, many of the participants of Vatican II didn't know that and were sold a lie, but the modernist/masonic clergy knew exactly what they were doing. And so, we now have figures like "father" James Martin and his ilk, bearing witness to the fruits of Vatican II.

[@YO-pf3pq]

The Roman Catholic Church officially repudiated the idea of collective Jewish guilt for Christ's death in a major document by the Second Vatican Council in 1965.

[@cg1906]

Vatican II haters pretend like thats a seperate issue, but they know.

[@BujangMelaka90]

To Hell with Vatican II

[@celebrim1]

Very well done. Thank you.

[@bear7098]

The Latin argument is quite empty. The apostles uaed the LXX because that was the language people understood. The Hebrew was known by the priesthood and few others. Sound familiar? This proves that a competent translation was acceptable to Jesus' invitation message and suggests that its meaning getting to people is what matters, not "tradition." Whatever else you think about Protestants, seems to me you have to admit they got this one right. Wycliffe and Luther deserve a lot of respect from all who name Christ. The apostles and many others gave their lives to spread the message far and wide. Why bottle it up for 1000 years in a dead language?

[@rusmeister7144]

I find myself feeling the same way now about the Orthodox Church, after the internal betrayals and the schisms, and the worldly-minded policies of some of the patriarchs; a deep understanding of what Tolkien must have felt about the RCC.

[@monarchblue4280]

Could you expand a bit more on what causes these feelings? I'm not orthodox but I have great respect for them and I'm curious.

[@rusmeister7144]

@ The Ecumenical Patriarch (EP) has sat on a seat that was a glorious one - a millennium ago. He has always wanted to restore that glory and has come to break with the Orthodox tradition of the collegial nature of the bishops, and to imagine himself an Orthodox Pope; he caused the current schism by autocratically deciding to bless the schismatic groups in the Ukraine, which the Western powers and Ukrainian government immediately used as a national Church for secular purposes and have persecuted the canonical Church under Metropolitan (Met) Onuphry, who was forced to distance himself from his ostensible superiors in Moscow, though it didn’t help. Some of the bishops under him have supported heretical ideas like the blessing of same-sex marriages (Met Kallistos and AB Elpidophorous, for example) and have not been rebuked or corrected. The Russian Patriarch has married the Russian Church to the state, so to speak, and does the will of the state. He wanted to get the state’s protection of the Church and has certainly succeeded, but actively support the very secular war as “a holy war” (even while the state denies it to be a war, and has told its citizens to call it “a special military action”, and the Russian Church has punished priests who believe this is not the mission of the Church and who object to inserting special prayers into the Divine Liturgy praying for victory. My parish there was blasted apart by lower level hierarchs eagerly pushing the punishment of dissidents with the government’s actions, so I experienced it up close and personally. I still believe in the Church, but no thanks to its living members. It’s people like Met Onuphry and the people I know suffering quietly in Russia that help me continue to believe.

[@SUDMONEYBAGS]

The schism between Constantinople and Moscow is not comparable to what’s going on in the Vatican, do not jump off noah’s arc because of men

[@flashgorgon5516]

Tolkien was right. The Catholic Church is the one and only church created by Christ.

[@alexanderpodgorski5449]

V2 didn't stray from usage of Latin, it's allowed just some usage of vernacular languages in exceptional circumstances

[@jamestipton3342]

As a Convert to Catholicism myself and an intellectual I can understand Tolkien's frustration; however, not everything in Vatican II was so simplifying and it permanently established what was the serious issues the Church needed to start working on to counter the darker side of modernization.

[@eliotreader8220]

I can see how talented he was with words

[@BPGM1989]

I went from atheism to traditional catolicism because of this, looking back the main thing that was holding me back for a long time, was not catolic doctrine, it was the liberal modern doctrine and its lack of rigor. The position of the church left by Crist its very clear, humankind is an exiled race prone to sin, exiled to this world whose prince is Satan, there are three main sources that lead us to sin and evil; - Our body cravings, - the devil, - the world and its tendencies Crist came to earth to redeem us and leave us a church to change men, change the world, and be a refuge against the world, so therefore the church cannot modernize in the sense that vatican 2 sougth to modernize the church. The church is not to adapt to the world, it is you the sinner who is to abandon the worldly ways and follow the way of cristh in all aspects of your earthly life, so that you can save your soul and spend eternity in heaven, and this is a gift, because by default and due to our flawed nature our souls are condemned to hell, to the trash bin of souls. Just as any process of selection for special forces, only the few pass the selection, it is the same here, only the best of CARACTER and VIRTUE will avoid the souls trash bin, this makes every sense, how could there be a paradise populated with men of free will with thieves, fornicators, and so on in it? That council one day will hopefully be declared invalid because it was done for earthly intentions, the goal of the church is the salvation of souls, not the growth just for the sake of growth, or to adapt to modern world, that is not the purpose of the church and a council that changed so much fundamentals of the church with the intention of atracting simpathies and people to it, its in my opinion and invalid council. This is why to me the sspx is the true traditiones custodes (guardions of tradition), and until this error of ecumenism and other V2 non catolic dogmas pratices persist, the church is going trough a crisis of heresy and the sspx are the ones keeping the rigth pratice and keeping catolicism alive, until a Pope comes and rectifies the situation. Avoid the sedevacante position, we believe despite this crisis, the Pope, institutions and sacraments are still valid.

[@Mike-pf1ru]

You went from atheism to this? God bless you! His grace has been at work in your soul.

[@JerehmiaBoaz]

So I guess you speak fluid Latin then, either that or you simply don't mind what's being said during service because it isn't important.

[@BPGM1989]

@@JerehmiaBoaz you are given a missal with the translations of the mass, but thats really not that important, in latin mass theres not that much participation, the priest and the altar boys are the ones leading the ritual, you are on the back seat.

[@JerehmiaBoaz]

@@BPGM1989 I was a catholic, I'm in my 60s and in my youth I had to attend mass at least once a day every day. I know what mass is like and that it contains call and response between priest and congregation. Before Vatican II believers were expected to cite their creed in Latin without understanding a word of what they're saying they believe in. You know, Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, factorem caeli et terrae, etc.

[@BPGM1989]

@@JerehmiaBoaz yes, the only prayer that i recall the congregation doing is the confiteor, (i confess), other than that its mostly basic responsive lines. There are missals that offer translation and instructions on the whole mass.

[@Chociewitka]

myself a Catholic: a very good summary! Poor Tolkien had no access to Latin mass back then. Nowaday they are some at special places if someone prefers those - and some do.

[@zimriel]

Nitpick: Tolkien wasn't exactly a conscious convert, himself. His mother was a convert when Tolkien was a child. As you note, Tolkien loved his mother and would follow her anywhere, and then she died young.

[@johnhannahoriordan1354]

In the interest of clarity, disagree with and oppose are not quite the same. He never did anything to put himself in opposition to the decisions of the magisterium of the Church regardless of whether he agreed or disagreed with same.

[@OtherWorldExplorers]

Was there anything that Tolkien didn't like. I bet he hated life cereal. Okay you have to be pretty old to understand what that one means....

[@prettybabey]

hahahahah you're so right!! i'd love to see a video on stuff he actually liked, i think it'd be very interesting!

[@Чарло]

Not as old as Vatican II.

[@Ama-Elaini]

He liked crosswords.

[@fallenkingdom-zd8xh]

Bro was probably one of the first RadTrads

[@PrzybyszzMatplanety]

He really wasn't. Contrary to them he sujected himself to the Church and respected Popes. Tolkien was not a schismatic.

[@fallenkingdom-zd8xh]

@ So, he’s Trad but not Rad?

[@DavidL-ii7yn]

There are a number of videos out there on stuff Tolkien didn't like. The list seems to be long. It is best explained as by describing him as an aging man whose beliefs were very much disconnected from the reality of the modern world. The institutions and traditions he believed in are no longer regarded as meritorious or important. The most obvious example is probably the British Empire.

[@travissutherland8502]

This was fascinating

[@MrAwak3]

I prefer the traditional approach and the Latin Mass but I never understood the Latin Only” movement. I’d never have become a Catholic unable to understand what’s being said at Mass.

[@Safe-and-effective]

Are you familiar with missals? If not, check them out.

[@MrAwak3]

@ yes, I still would not have become Catholic reading a Missal. That’s just me though. Don’t get me wrong, I see nothing wrong with the Latin Mass and actually love it. I just don’t subscribe to the Novus Ordo being some inferior Mass because it’s not Latin. I personally have not experienced some of the bad Novus Ordo Mass’s we’ve seen on KZbin.

[@Safe-and-effective]

@@MrAwak3 It's not about the Latin. The entire liturgy was changed: the orientation, the rubrics, the music, the readings, the structure...less than 20 percent of the mass that was celebrated for centuries (millennia?) is what now survives as the so-called Novus Ordo. As a cradle Catholic, growing up in the 80s, I didn't even know the Traditional Mass existed. I left the church at 13 and I didn't know why. I was too young to understand, but even then it felt so irreverent as to make it worthless for a young man looking for his roots, for something authentic to hold onto in a world filled with passing fads. But that's just me. The Latin is just cherry on top. It is not a coincidence that it was the language written on the cross of Our Savior. It is wonderful that you have found your way to the Catholic Church. God bless you and yours always. And if you have a TLM nearby, be thankful. Plenty of faithful Catholics have had that opportunity stolen from them....

[@MrAwak3]

@ by that metric, why not a Mass in Hebrew or Greek? If the specific language was so important, we wouldn’t have had tongues confused following the Tower of Babel.

[@Safe-and-effective]

@@MrAwak3 In case you didn't read the first sentence from my previous reply, I will facilitate it here for you again: It's not about the Latin. Quick question: do you think the Novus Ordo is just a translation of the Latin Mass?

[@Lexthebarbarian]

Had Tolkien lived today, he would have been a devoted supporter of the SSPX, perhaps even a sedevacantist, at least on the inside.

[@robertjarman4261]

He would be Russian Orthodox.

[@Lexthebarbarian]

@@robertjarman4261 The joke of the day!

[@catzor4795]

​@@robertjarman4261Russians are orcs.