WiFi or ethernet for streaming

[@barrymiller3385]

I spent a fair bit of time comparing wifi to an ethernet cable. At the time I was given to understand that a physical connect was better. But.... I simply couldn't tell the difference! (And I am one of those sad people that hears a big difference between power cables!) I eventually settled on wifi because it looked a bit neater having one fewer cable.

[@ocelotxp]

It depends on what you're doing For *certain* things, ethernet is better. For most things, wifi is perfectly fine.

[@Jaywarde82]

I came across this channel a couple years ago on my own journey for my perfect system I am building and I gotta say....Thank you to Paul and the team for teaching and listening to your audience and fans. We certainly appreciate any advice from industry professionals and love the inside knowledge you are willing to share. Love this channel! Keep it coming!

[@utube321piotr]

CHECKSUM is the key that ensures proper data transfer in WiFi as well as ethernet cable. Data packets are either accurately received or their transfer is repeated until they are.

[@Rowuk2024]

The wifi argument is the galvanic separation of the streaming device on both sides. Just one less connection to more clocks/ power supply RF.

[@timothystockman7533]

Wi-Fi is more dependent on the RF environment. Good Wi-Fi will be OK. It's easier to have stable wired Ethernet, but most Wi-Fi is plenty good.

[@BobbyBass-x6i]

Thanks for answering the question. Sound the same A/B testing both now that I’ve upgraded to the latest Verizon router. Placed in the middle of the house and covers all 3 floors with no need for boosters or any drop outs.

[@JonatanWallmander]

It doesn't matter, yes. If we talk generic streaming service (Spotify et al.), data is checksummed/checked so that if a packet has been corrupted - it will get thrown out and re-sent. So even if you have up to 20% physical loss on the cable/wifi, the exact bits will still arrive. Otherwise you'll hear a clear interruption. This is also why these services pre-buffer data to allow for short hiccups in the physical transfer. (Spotify builds up this buffer over time when you play a song.)

[@paganrythyms]

Space Coast is a nickname for Brevard county, where KSC is. Thanks for the reply!

[@Muckyfellrunner]

WiFi does have its limitations due to the environment around the nodes. I have an entertainment room, with my HiFi, TV, games station, etc and my home office where my internet comes in. I’ve put a 1Gb wired connection between the two rooms as the WiFi signal from the router would need to go (as line of sight)…. though 2 cupboards a brick wall a door a hot water tank copper pipes another brick wall the bathroom (more copper pipes!) another brick wall the lounge another brick wall into the entertainment room Putting a CAT 5E cable between the rooms via the attic with gigabit switches either end, made a significant difference with the signal. Especially due to the electrical equipment being used in each room; the office has 3 small NAS servers plus three computers on all the time, amongst others.

[@user-od9iz9cv1w]

Another 'bridge' that can be useful are wifi pods. My home wifi has repeaters called 'pods'. As well as ensuring full and wide coverage, I found it useful to put one near my system and using an RJ45 cable to the streamer. My streamer happens to work a little better with ethernet vs wifi, so this works perfectly.

[@helpontheway]

Paul! I initially thought about a credit union called space coast credit union here in Florida. I think I like your theory on where this guy is most likely located. Whether on Wi-Fi or on the coast, I appreciate your answer to this question that you have answered many times❤

[@Spud_E_Buddy]

Guess what the Area Code is. Yup, 321 😂

[@richardsmith2721]

The Space Coast term has been around for a long time. It refers to the area around the space industry like Silicon Valley refers to the area around the tech industry.

[@rosswarren436]

Yes, since the 1960s...

[@tysimon]

5 GHz WiFi or WiFi 6 are almost equivalent to cable in terms of stability.

[@dougstorace321]

You can never beat a wired connection for performance.

[@mnoble247]

You can't out bandwidth the audio stream you are sending. Years ago, on a $300 laptop with 802.11g, I started a stream and did a port mirror and pcap. I captured 240GB of data with 6 resent packets. Wireless is more than enough and the reliability is there in most environments. Now you can get into co-channel interference and if you can get cable ran to where you are at it's best to do so.

[@curtiscroulet8715]

"Space Coast" is a region, like "Gold Coast" and "Treasure Coast" in Florida.

[@LuxAudio389]

Before I bought my Aurender N20 I asked about why they only use Ethernet ( RJ45 )and not WiFi. The answer wasn't about WiFi's reliability or quality, but about RFI noise. Any noise from Ethernet itself they can easily mitigate by isolation via a separate transformer and a double insulated port. Many owners convert their Ethernet run to fiber and then back to RJ45 to the unit. Also anything on the same circuit with a switch mode power supply powering a router or network switch gets a linear power supply.

[@azar3006]

Here is my experience, I connected my node2i using wifi due to no access to router and it worked most of the time but sometimes I was losing connection due to my devices , ipad and iphone switching networks and not being able to find the node. It would take few minutes of frustration to figure what the problem was or a reboot on the node, also since wifi was the only access point, you couldn’t get to node to test the connection, all in all a very frustrating experience. I finally got a network expander under $20 and connected the ethernet port to it and now not a single problem, no connection issues or dropped packages, no reboots or any other problem, life is good again !

[@bf0189]

Ethernet except for phone tablets etc for me but I had cat 6 installed across the house some time ago

[@redrockdejan2507]

My friend bought a Wire World ethernet cable for his Atoll DAC and he told me that there is a huge difference in sound compared to Wi Fi. I laughed at how an internet cable could have an effect until I tried it myself on my Exogal. The difference is huge in details and sound clarity! I guarantee that you will be shocked.

[@rosswarren436]

Router is in my computer room/home office, streamers are in other rooms. Just wasn't going to drill more holes in my walls and run more Ethernet cables. Figure if my router can do 2-streams of 4K video it can do FLACs at 24-bit/192MHz just fine. It would be nice if routers supported assigning priorities (bandwidth) to various devices, and maybe some can be configured that way, but mine from Spectrum doesn't seem to have those granular settings.

[@D1N02]

The reason some audiophiles hate wi-fi is they spent a fortune on routers, bridges, cables power supplies decouplers when a well implemented wi-fi chip and a decent router would have been enough.

[@RectifiedMetals]

Yay paul tells the truth. Ethernet is just more reliable.

[@shipsahoy1793]

The ONLY thing wrong with Wi-Fi is IF you have a poor signal. With decent signals, no issues whatsoever. One caveat.. when the signal is impacted by interference from other nearby strong signals due to a receiver’s inability to sufficiently reject them, or is desensed by them.

[@nekomancer350]

What's the cheapest reliable way to stream music from my laptop over wifi to my old integrated stereo amp? It doesn't have to have all the bells and whistles, just a device with a transparent dac that will not have jitter or any other weird shenanigans.

[@SpyderTracks]

Mesh WiFi setups have transformed WiFi reliability. Invest in a decent mesh setup and it will completely eradicate any drop outs or speed reductions.

[@paganrythyms]

I have one so I should be good then, thanks!

[@bossybill7437]

I suspect Kevin's question might have been more in respect to (RF/EM) Interference in 'high-end streamer DACs', than getting the bits into the system. In my system, I've connected my streamer to a (sub-net/secondary) WiFi router via Ethernet. This way, my streamer has a wired Internet connection for streaming but I can also connect to it via WiFi (on my phone/tablet, etc. to control the play). I don't know how much, if anything, RF/EM interference might be, but my streamer's WiFi is off. For completeness... All my Ethernet cabling, from the street, to my streamer (and elsewhere) is the shielded (and ground earthed) Cat 7 variety, and I'm waiting for (Amazon to deliver) a Fiber/Ethernet Cable transceiver setup to RF/EM isolate the streamer almost completely.

[@AdmanMadDog]

Yup, me too. Whatever benefit it might give :)

[@darrellross8609]

Thanks P, I stream from wifi with a Samsung tablet w/ Audioqust Carbon USB. It's amazing.! Best, D.

[@unicornslayer6963]

Imo Wifi vs Ethernet is like night and day, not even remotely close.

[@l.ralphmellon1716]

Do you have any recommendation about the best WiFi adapter to plug into a DirectStream DAC Mk I or a Memory Player (where an Ethernet connection is not possible)?

[@RumblestripDotNet]

Probably an odd question but does anyone know brand of desks those are? I need to replace my current one.

[@medonk12rs]

Just yesterday I discovered that my stone-age Auralic Aries (femto) streamer seems to contaminate its USB output with noise and/or jitter, when its WiFi is switched on. The output quality without WiFi is much better. That is true also for local playback from a USB pen drive. Therefore, I'd say that WiFi per se is not a problem, but the device should be made to high standards in order to keep the WiFi's RFI away from the output signal.

[@EyesOfByes]

Ive seen a setting in some routers where you can force the client (mediaplayer) to continue buffering, and never go to sleep. Cant remember what it's called at the moment

[@mattm3t3]

good quality, short-distanced ethernet cables with gigabit lan works best. the process is simpler, a lot more interference-safe compared to wifi. but of course, there are variations depending on the quality or capabilities of the wifi equipment. pricing of course will be brought to the issue. so, choose at your comfort.

[@michaelturner4457]

Well WiFi will certainly give it galvanic isolation from the router

[@harackmw]

Yea it is a problem. I listen to the music in my head, I can't get any more isolated than that.

[@bossybill7437]

You can also use a Ethernet/Fiber Transceiver setup for galvanic isolation. ... plus Cat 7 (or 8) shielded and earth grounded Ethernet cabling for even more isolation.

[@joeythedime1838]

Space Coast = I Dream of Jeannie Cocoa Beach FL!

[@hopsonz28]

The cheapest Ethernet cable is better than the best Wi-Fi. It is a constant/consistent signal. Radio shack used to have brochures on how to jam infrared, and Wi-Fi signals. It is easy to affect a wireless signal. Not to mention how many other devices or on the Wi-Fi? The more devices the slower the Wi-Fi.

[@infinite1der]

"The more devices the slower the Wi-Fi." This has not been the case since the introduction of MIMO-type WIFI access points. Also, if someone *actively* "jamming" WIFI in your area, you have bigger problems than, "Why is my streaming service sucking today?"

[@bossybill7437]

@@infinite1der Lots of factors are at play here. Distance especially, may limit you to 2.4g WiFi, and the impact of that is definitely compounded by the number of devices... and nearby RF/EM interference (imho, 'someone actively jamming' misrepresents hopsonz's Comment and disingenuously diminishes his assertions). _Not that Ethernet cabling is necessarily the most cost or audibly, effective solution, for hopsonz, either._ As they say... Your mileage may vary. People need to _take care_ when asserting a single solution over a broad problem space (even if that may well be the case).

[@ptg01]

I can not tell the difference between wi-fi and hard wired. I also ignore all these 'audiophile' network switches. It does not impact sound for my ears.

[@Pete.across.the.street]

Which switches did you try?

[@ptg01]

@@Pete.across.the.street I did not but I am a 30+ year IT executive and know that bits are bits. Others may believe in it and I am a-ok with it.

[@Pete.across.the.street]

@@ptg01 probably why it didn't impact the sound for your ears. You have to actually listen with a network switch in your rig to hear a difference or not. Amazes me how people think they hear no differences and have never tried the product. Yes bits are bits. Noise is also noise. Got to keep up with new tech, lots changes in 30 years

[@ptg01]

@@Pete.across.the.street If you can hear the difference, that works for you. For me, I firmly believe I can not tell the difference.... or if I can, it is just a small incremental difference. I had a turntable that is a little over $8K that sounds amazing but at the end of the day, my $1K turntable sounds awesome (perhaps 85% of the $8K TT) too and I have an extra $7K in the bank ! Like I said, for those that believe network switches etc makes a difference, I am A-OK with it. I prefer to spend my money a bit frugally / wisely . Alternatively, for those that can appreciate the difference and afford it, one should get $500K turntables, $1M speakers, $2M power amps and $1M in cables....... and I am confident it will sound amazing.

[@nekomancer350]

Test it

[@mdloops]

I have a MS in network engineering and the information provided here accurate. You will never hear a difference because there is no difference if the service uses TCP. As others have said the bits are checked and missing bits are added back during the buffering period so you will never know anything went wrong. As Paul stated, the only reason you’d choose Ethernet is for the reliability of the connection medium.

[@Thoughtflux]

There is no data loss either ways as both use TCP. But the problem is electrical noise entering your system. A high end system will be immune because of isolation chips such as adum series. But with a cheaper diy implementation such as mine with a raspberry pi, you can hear big differences even in cat5 and cat8 cables!

[@bossybill7437]

What is at issue is, what happens to the bits AFTER they leave TCP/IP context and before they are converted to Analogue. Sure 'bits are bits' but that's not the end of the story. Throw a bunch of RF/EM Interference in that space (as above) and see what happens to your bits. Most will get through but those on the edges can go wherever. (Why have TCP/IP in the first place?) And on top of that, there is jitter. But, hey, you have the MS in network engineering, right?

[@Chiroman527]

Having a better quality Router for your WiFi has a significant bearing on the reception. I recently upgraded mine (FioS - Verizon) with a new Router supplying much improved bit transfer speeds. The Verizon technician who came ti install my new upgrded Cable and WiFi service a few weeks ago, looked at my old Verizon Router and said: "That's Ancient". Where the main router was located in my Basement nearby my Denon Receiver which has a Network Player always had a good connection with the old Router. I suspect it is even better now.

[@josschreur6992]

The question is wat makes less noise

[@jerryparsley2289]

Would love to know what the the gear is, on the desk in front of Paul...

[@CalvinWebb]

It's a set of AR amps.

[@gotham61]

@ 3.02 Paul; "go for the best you can", as he gestures towards an Audio Research tube amp sitting on the table.

[@jondu-sud274]

Pleased to hear this, one less thing to think about for my streaming indecision

[@Kiwi_Col]

If your wifi uses the same power supply for everything, you will hear the difference downstream on a good system. Wifi generates noise on the supply, just like computer processors, and many other things. Airlense obviously uses separate supplies.

[@humanitech]

Why not just get a streamer with both wifi and ethernet cable options.... and see which works better for you !?

[@Pete.across.the.street]

Do they make those?

[@Thoughtflux]

There is no data loss either ways as both wifi & wired connections use TCP. BUT the problem is electrical noise entering your system. A high end system will be immune because of isolation chips such as ADUM series - the latest one needs clocks for reclocking. But with a cheaper diy implementation such as mine with a raspberry pi, you can hear big differences even in cat5 and cat8 cables! I'm planning to go fiber.

[@bossybill7437]

You're right, as you say, the TCP/IP ensures the integrity of the bits but the problem is the electrical noise brought into the system, be it through the Ethernet or the WiFi. Both Cat 7 and Cat 8 Ethernet are shielded (Cat 8 has a better AWG spec) and both can be earth grounded (to drain what the shielding blocks; look for metal surrounds on your switches and routers then earth them). Fiber all the way would be great but the main thing it provides is galvanic isolation which can be achieved with a short length of fiber near the streamer. The 'gabster' channel has a whole stack of info on shielding and earthing of Raspberry Pis. If you're running Raspberry Pi, the Ian Canada upgrades are 'magic'. Coupled to a highly resolving system and you will be blown away.

[@s18018]

I get more random noise in my system from ethernet vs. WiFi

[@ThinkingBetter]

Yeah, audio is quite low data bandwidth on modern WiFi connections so your audio data will be fine either way and as audio streaming over IP is asynchronous, there is zero topic concerning timing or jitter. And while WiFi provides galvanic isolation on the data communication, realistically that is also a non-issue in any modern setup (otherwise could be an advantage of WiFi).

[@L.A-h5s]

One issue with WiFi is health concerns . Especially with children. It influences concentration...

[@craigaust3306]

Says who?

[@707sword]

Me as a old audiophile and new audiophile disagrees. I know digital is 1.s and o's. But there is extra 1's and o's (garbage apart from original signal) floating around.

[@davidfairchild1640]

What? Where do the extra 0s and 1s come from?

[@rosswarren436]

There might be "noise", but the bits are check summed and if incorrect, they get sent again until the checksum matches.

[@stimpy1226]

Space Coast Florida. Up in the air Junior Birdman.

[@zhongliu5624]

Google Wifi set will get you ethernet connections

[@mpi5850]

Looking at the comments I see we audiophiles, true to our nature, can’t accept simple facts. Yes, Wifi and Ethernet are the same in terms of sound quality. Period. In others news, water is wet.

[@analogueman5364]

😂

[@anonimushbosh]

"It's all the same bits" he says, like only a complete moron might think otherwise. Also Paul... $20K power conditioners and $10K speaker cables carefully raised off the floor because... "ahh well, it's complicated"!! 😂

[@harackmw]

20K ? pfff. You need to spend more for the ones that levitate! 😆

[@Pete.across.the.street]

Just get a Wiim and call it a day.

[@ixoye56]

WIFI all the way, less cables to the people.

[@ryanray6215]

You wanna your brain fried with the EMF always go with the WiFi .

[@rosswarren436]

Not really. The level of radiation is so small it is more than two orders of magnitude below being ionizing on cellular tissue, and that is right at the antenna. It falls off quickly as the inverse square of the distance you go. Old cellphones were a different story.

[@bobbg9041]

Well Paul Thats like comparing the Denver Broncos to the Kansas City Cheifs They dont play on the same level. Now comparing my google Fiber to my google fiber Mesh WIFi Yes Wifi will work but its on one of 2 bands 2.7 ghz or i think its 5.7 ghz almost everything is on 2.7 ghz the bandwidth is full so its less reliable not everyone knows how to switch bands or if the even can so id say in my city and my ISP My 2 gig fiber connection is better if my equipment can handle that speed and now as i understand 10 gig is available kinda depends on what your streaming and heres a catch Bluetooh is no where as good as even wifi. Doesn't come close. So wired is always better and if its a Bluetooth reciver and speakers your better off with wired speakers unless there is no way around it. Then you get into wire types and lengths. And i know some people argure wire dosnt matter, no it all points back to your ears and what you can hear. Then youve got to look at how much is too good for your ablity to hear? Your speakers will be tge biggest difference in the whole system. Always build a system from the speakers out to the source. This was talked about years ago in STEREO REVIEW if you can remember back to the 1970s. Long before DAT even then Wire was a subject of discussion. And honestly music was a hell of a lot better.

[@bobbg9041]

What we should all be doing is fiber optics but you wont see toslink on your cell phone. You have to do what you can with what you have or can use. Wifi works but large panels of metal used inside the home or office can block wifi signal. If your house has metal siding your wifi is going to suck, if your wifi routers right behind hvac ductwork then your Wi-Fi will suck. Metal doors can block wifi some paint can block wifi. You can download a program to walk around your house to set up your system for the best oprations if your going to use Wifi but ill recommend cat 5e cat 6e or Fiber optics over wifi if you can. Do not relay on wifi only. Plus you get more speed cabality out of a hard connection. Wifi has its limitations fiber optics is limitless almost cat5e with good cable should be all you need but cat6e is better and fiber optics is king. But distance is always a factor. HDMI is a bandaid invented to limit your ablity by the industry when tosslink was what should have been built from in the form of fiber optics. If everything use fiber optics wire cross talk would never have been an issue . 4k hdmi cables are better then your cheap hdmi cables. Your receiver your TV your router your computer all would have been better off using fiber optics from the start. And I cant think of anyone using fiber optics inputs on a receiver to this date and they all should be doing it. And I'm not talking tosslink I'm talking pure fiber optics.

[@davidfairchild1640]

Wired is not always better. Either all the packets arrive and in the correct order or they don't. Simple check sum routines can determine this.

[@tubefreeeasy]

Broncos won…lol

[@Piglet6256]

wutttt?? Ethernet all the way

[@RogierYou]

Oh boy Paul has to learn a lot about WiFI….. At least have the WiFi router within a line of sight to the streamer.

[@mdloops]

Not necessary, so long as you don’t have a brick wall or faraday cage between them

[@davidfairchild1640]

Line of sight? Why?

[@RogierYou]

@@davidfairchild1640 to make best use of the 5ghz band with its wider channels therefore higher speeds. HOWEVER 5ghz doesn’t penetrate solid surfaces well. You might still see a “strong” signal. But many small devices like smartphones tablets etc have weak transmitters causing the WiFi AP to request to send the reply again leading to delays and slower speeds. I install networks in large homes and smaller offices. Tried to skimp and put fewer WiFi AP (access points) in to save cost for the client. Only to often end up with complaints. Therefore it’s best to install an AP in almost every room where people / equipment reside for longer periods of time. Transitional areas like hallways and staircases can be covered with way less. Also hard wire anything that doesn’t move. Like desktop computers / printers and AV equipment. Of course this is not something to be done with a standard modem/router provided by the ISP. Or the consumer routers…. A good start is Ubiquity.

[@gioponti6359]

my experience on Wifi vs ethernet (pro-ject stream box ultra s2, with the router in about only 1m distance) 1) wifi works, with occasional hiccups and reboots. SQ is quite good. 2) ethernet: have at least one switch between router and streamer, psu matter in SQ, cheap SMPSU may bleed their noise into the powerline, so no good. also addl galvanic isolators positively influence SQ (mind every plug/socket harbours one stage of galvanic isolation, perhaps they still bleed into or from the devices?) and so do various different ethernet cables. also dedicated ethernet filters (ifi lan filter) change SQ, unfortunately also to some extent frequency balance. Which is the weirdest. So ethernet can be a rabbit hole.. This apparently is not the case with more expensive streamers such as 4k€ Auralics that have all sorts of filtration at the ethernet input stage. SQ in my system with ethernet: varies from a lot worse (no switch, use of cheap amazon lan cable..) to definitely better, not to say really good. No hiccups or reboots.

[@renaissance6745]

Total Tosh Totally totally totally disagree, nothing beats wired connections for anything absolutely loathe Wi-Fi, when I did try Wi-Fi I had nothing but problems drop outs glitches etc etc etc, also when are most of your viewers going to stop pissing about with their Hi-Fi and start listening to music.

[@tubefreeeasy]

Invest in a pure silver coax cable for your modem and even strengthen your power cable with silver core power cables. My KZbin sounds fantastic.

[@harackmw]

🤐

[@artyfhartie2269]

All this time spent trying to get digital to sound like analog is time wasted. The sound coming out of a DAC is not analog. The device just changes the binary digits data into sine waves leaving out all the other intricate waveforms making a pure analog sound

[@Pete.across.the.street]

Oh no

[@bossybill7437]

Comparing Digital to Analogue is the wrong measure. The correct measure, imho, is to compare Digital and/or Analogue, to the Real Deal (whatever that is purported to be, that is, putting aside Imaginary Reality created by 'studio magic'). And... that is NOT to say, which is _preferable;_ especially in varying contexts.

[@harackmw]

Streaming? yuck! the noise!🤭

[@davidfairchild1640]

What noise?

[@harackmw]

@@davidfairchild1640 I swear I can hear it! 😅

[@improvsax]

If no ethernet, I’m sure the wifi is just fine. But of course wired/fibre is always better than over the air. Perhaps you would never hear the difference, it may always work just as well. Another thing I like to do, have all ‘permanently’ ethernet connections be static IP. Less chance of issues and connectivity. Of course, it can still have IP address issues and require a lease ‘clear’ to fix- but probably rarely at a home situation. But I’m coming from the IT side of things and spends decades as a radio tech (public safety two-way) and any time I could connect via fibre, I would always choose that. Especially if we own the entire network so a lot more control. But of course, this is just listening to music, not something that could be life threatening.