Twisp Fire Fatalities Overview (updated)

To view the Twisp River Fire Fatalities report, visit: lessons.wildfire.gov/incident... to download a pdf version.
Updated Version

[@timengland2475]

To build a learning culture you need to stop punishing firefighters for pointing out safety issues. I have been demobed from a fire for pointing out to the division commander (in private 1on1 conversations) the safety lapses i have witnessed. From dozer collisions with parked vehicles to abnormally bad road conditions on a very long escape route and oncoming traffic and broke down vehicles on the same (one way) escape route. And that is a small list. I was labeled a bad boy and demobed from the fire. I now refuse to work with that man because it is just a matter of time before he kills someone. I learned my lesson and now keep my mouth shut and protect myself and my crew.

[@brokendown63]

Tim are you a crew boss?

[@timengland2475]

brokendown63, yes. I am an engine boss. Why?

[@brokendown63]

After reading the last line of your post I kinda figured is all. I'm a long retired Helitack crew member and that "protect myself and my crew" statement kinda hit home. My last fire was in 88 and back then we weren't a crew we were a family, and we watched out for each other like a family, overhead be damned! You do the best you can to bring your people home Tim we're losing way too many to stupid mistakes and poor leadership! Be safe man!

[@OmmerSyssel]

Tim England Certain people block important critic despite obvious failures. In our national training facility two men died bcs of desastrous decisions made by the local "heroic" hardcore instructor.. He was finally dismissed & another kind of modern learning culture finally came in. Open communication along with respect for basic skills is mandatory. Some leaders tends to develop alternative procedures & see them self as unquestionable heroes.. They are often dangerous to their employees & colleagues You can't trust anyone than yourself in such environment. Stay safe 🍻

[@timengland2475]

@Joseph Bloe I know, right! thank you, i will friend.

[@schlooonginator1227]

I am just someone fascinated with the subject and have zero involvement with wildland fire fighting. I have watched nearly every case study video and there are obvious themes I have learned. Number 1 is most fatalities and deployment situations are due to a severe change in wind direction and behavior. Number 2 is bad safety planning due to a presumption of the fire behaving as it is continually. Number 3 Is this bad plan is usually having resources seperated from the safety zome by fuel and or terrain that makes retreating difficult. As soon as I saw that long serpentine road to the safety zone, all of which is fuel, I knew where this was going.

[@rossdunn2519]

That long Serpentine road is is less than 1/8 of a mile.

[@eliturner3499]

@@rossdunn2519 But also upslope of dense fuel and with three hairpin turns. I used to live up a road like this, and it makes for a TERRIBLE escape route.

[@colinwatt00]

I too have recently become interested in these case study videos and I too have started to pick-up on those same key themes you identified. Kudos to you for succinctly describing them.

[@dylantaylor5829]

Yeah they give us an incident response pocket guide and whenever stuff like this happens you can identify the rules broken or poor decisions made that caused problems.

[@melissabacinskigreene8082]

I JUST LOST A BELOVED AND BEAUTIFUL SISTER IN LAW ,WIFE OF MY BROTHER A VOLUNTEER FIRE FIGHTER IN WYOMING TO THE LOUIS LAMOUR FIRE WHILE SHE WAS TRYING TO EVACUATE WITH THEIR PETS! UPON RUNNING INTO A FIRE FRONT BLOCKING HER ESCAPE SHE TRIED TO TURN BACK TO HER HOUSE AND OR A POSSIBLE SAFETY ZONE AND WITH WINDS GUSTING OVER 100 MILES AN HOUR COULDN'T ESCAPE! WE ARE ALL VERY HEARTBROKEN AND AS WELL AS THE FIREFIGHTING' COMMUNITY AND FIRST RESPONDERS THAT WERE ALSO FAMILY! 🙏🏼

[@warplotus]

as a burn survivor of a house fire when I was a baby, I have always respected all firefighters of all types. from the pilots and dozer operators all the way to the smokejumpers and line peeps. thank you all.

[@1stLtDavis]

Yeah I’d sure appreciate a firefighter coming in to save my arse, but if I’m outside let’s just watch my house burn. No reason that guy should die for my stuff. That’s what insurance is for.

[@sir.willthur5428]

Thank you.

[@timfredrickson3889]

People over property

[@AdamSmith-uv6kr]

To those families and firemen that live this life and those lost I envy and give you my highest respect. If anything ever happens at my home please save my family but put your lives before my things. My property can burn to the ground and be rebuilt but your lives can not be replaced.

[@Kyleromancito]

Damn !!!!!!! I was ther with my Zuni NM crew !!! Remember that day very well .

[@KnittingPasta]

I really like the special trucks that the Australian wildfire fighters use. They have external sprinklers to wet the truck exterior, and thick fire resistant curtains for the windows.

[@eliturner3499]

They also almost never use handcrews, apparently.

[@josephastier7421]

@@eliturner3499 Can you imagine trying to cut line in a eucalyptus forest?

[@eliturner3499]

@@josephastier7421 I don't see how that would be any different than cutting line in any other forest.

[@josephastier7421]

@@eliturner3499 kzbin.info/www/bejne/fGTHgZ-Mq9B8kJo

[@eliturner3499]

@@josephastier7421 That's not remotely unique to eucalyptus or even Australia. Any crowning like that or even any decent run is going to jump hand line.

[@A-Rodslot1224]

Thanks for your service brothers and sisters. Rest In Peace. ✝️✝️✝️

[@kittygonzalez2827]

It should always be life THEN Property 🔥

[@casper8671]

Funny everyone watched the video but no one listened. Failure to communicate effectively between agencies was the main reason. They neglected to relay the weather forecast of the predicted weather change which turned out to be accurate.

[@sparrowsparrow8223]

casper8671 take me through that again

[@brokendown63]

Casper8671, Exactly! Situational awareness includes ALWAYS being aware of the most recent weather info. I also think the only assets to be placed on the right flank of that fire in an IA situation such as this should have been minimal and for evaluating structure protection only until the situation became more clear. The Dozer in particular, in my opinion shouldn't have been on the right flank at all. Bad idea.

[@rossdunn2519]

The information of a predicted wind shift at 1500 out of the West was given to every resource that came up on the right hand side of the fire.

[@johnnyhorizon8368]

What happened in South Canyon 1994 happened here...will repeat itself...

[@TwoGuns1891]

I work on an engine/pumper crew and I was in this very area the year prior...Carlton Complex

[@Kyleromancito]

I was ther too Zuni crew .... respects to you bro .... still got my shirt I bought " firestorm, carlton complex"

[@TwoGuns1891]

@@Kyleromancito 😎 Bro, my engine was Mountain Camel, out of Blackfeet Country. Bro, to tell you the truth that complex had a lot of natives but also the first time I/we felt some negativeness from our own people. The native crews from the Dakota’s, East of us Blackfeet’s, they would not tell us hello, how you doing and they camped with the other shade of skin which really doesn’t matter now. We even caught up with some on our way home but yea it was good one for me because that was my last sign off for engine boss. Native Lives Matter Bro we got to stick together one Nation bro✊🏽

[@owenroper-iw1jt]

Thanks for the briefing. I am always thinking what if. Where is safety? What is the risk? How intense can it burn? How much do I know of the situation? Always maintain board situational awareness, if you loose it go back to safety and rebuild your situational awareness. Never watch a video like this and think it can't happen to you. Some of the most experienced people in the world of fire have died when they have lost that situational awareness.

[@kylealexander7024]

Having done almost all red card training this is scary af to hear. "The wind has shifted..."

[@NJFireBuff]

What really happened was that they were not where they were supposed to be and were trying to protect a fellow firefighters house. Not a single member had proper ppe or fire shelters.

[@NJFireBuff]

@PainIsGood80 how do you think I found out

[@wills1110]

What happened to the 2 engines that came down behind E642?

[@Cthippo1]

They mase it to the safety zone without incisent. E642 ran off the road and the other two engines passed them on the way down, bit didn't see them due to the smoke.

[@bbbushhh]

I have to ask why they didn't tightline from the main road and the first switchback?.....getting assets above the fire is bad business....this is not criticism by the way....just an earnest question.

[@tonyroulette9370]

armchair firefighters

[@cannonball9478]

With fire behaviour becoming more unpredictable and the intensity and speed home owners need to clear fuel from their property?

[@dylantaylor5829]

That is advisable yes.

[@TheNickademas1]

Yet as someone who works for and with WUI. Most scoff when you tell them their pretty trees next to their house has to go or that you want them to take an extra 50 steps to go get their firewood. Or that maintaining their gutters and decks could save it. It’s a joke I tell them straight up we will not save this house we will skip it and it will burn if you don’t do the work before the fire plain and simple

[@tony.bickert]

wind shift had been predicted. why was there surprise?

[@horsebattery9243]

One of the lessons must be to block new build property development in wildland areas. The houses they died protecting are recently built. Did the property developers think about the fire risk? Have they made a donation to the families of the fallen and injured?

[@leesenger3094]

I thought there was a can in the garage on that wire shelf🤷🏻‍♂️

[@peterscherling9311]

needs to pay better attention to wind direction and its changes! i got caught in a real bad fire too and was the last out as i saw a green tree explode with the heat coming up the hill! the road was on fire! the heat went up to 60k feet we lost 3 fire engines and it was as if the water fueled the fire! VERY dangerous! spot fires were starting all over the place down wind! it was insane to even try to fight that fire! 1993 i think near Mckall idaho! i was wearing the 1st infantry division combat patch lol in the national guard fighting the fire with the big red one out of ft cambel kentucky! lol none of us were preparred for such a thing but we ate good and did our best! looking back just let the fires burn lol

[@rossproulx6998]

Peter Scherling the big red one isn't out of FT. Campbell.

[@peterscherling9311]

sometimes the heat is so bad the tree trunk splits open like popcorn as the moister inside the tree boils its a hot fire when this is happening! stay away!

[@dsmith377]

ummm... yeah.... if that happens your probably in hell. aint no one gonna be that close when that starts to happen. unless you are a pile of ash.

[@Cognitoman]

@@dsmith377 lol

[@victor-th4qs]

That sound of fire. Making a run. Like a frieght train.

[@kylealexander7024]

This is scary af. I hate fires in trees. Grass fires i can live through

[@johnnyhorizon8368]

DUDE!!! REMEMBER ur Watch Out Situations!!! Most fatalities occur in light fuels!!!! NOT forested canopy cover!!!

[@kylealexander7024]

Most deaths occur during wind change. 2-5 PM and the same in the AM. I do agree though. Always be aler for watch out situations

[@JurijFedorov]

If they did the best they could with the knowledge they had then they definitely lacked training. I don't understand why the video just states this and then skips any logical conclusion to the statement.

[@peterscherling9311]

never fight a fire burning up the hill catch it as it burns down the hil over the top!

[@theconvictedquokka]

In aus we burn from the bottom of the other side of the hill

[@historyandstuff5794]

Man gulch fire killed 13 smokejumpers going down hill

[@peggymcculley5718]

I have to come down on the side of lives before property. The stakes grow exponentially higher each year in our approach to managing wildfires as the consequences of climate change increasingly manifest themselves. Coupled with our irresistible urge to build homes at the edge of wildlands, we have the perfect storm for tragedy. I value the lives of residents and fire fighters above anyone's property, including my own. We hang banners to tell fire fighters how much we love them in the midst of a crisis. It's past time to honor them with the directive to protect life before property. Peggy Mc

[@lindanwfirefighter4973]

Peggy McCulley there is no such thing as climate change! It's a lie. We need to be aware of varying years of drought and wet! It is a normal pattern. To just randomly blame it on climate change serves no benefit!

[@buckfuttler2877]

gee, your opinion, or 97% of scientists on earth....TOUGH choice......

[@bobbertee5945]

Believe in climate change, highly doubt its man made.....

[@TheBrushcutter]

And the scientists are paid by whom?

[@1stLtDavis]

I’m old enough to remember what it was global cooling. Then global warming. Then climate change. Now it’s “climate change is complex”. They had to dump the warming bull for sure. Winters in the Midwest are getting colder and longer. Had blizzards in April this year. But even that’s not a first. Just take it as it comes.

[@DrunkenGuitarGuy]

website dead it seems, too bad!

[@WildfirelessonsNet]

We updated it: lessons.wildfire.gov/incident/twisp-river-fire-entrapments-and-fatalities-2015

[@mnpd3]

I can't pronounce "Twisp"; apparently having a lisp helps.

[@jazzip]

After reading the fatality report my main take away was, there was a gross lack of communication. Also a lack of leadership each team acting independent of each other and no one was where they were suppose to be. For example the dozer team lead setup a line somewhere else than was agreed. Air support f@&k off for one hour to refuel and no one knew. Engine 642 was directed back into the fire after trying to escape the fire when the wind changed which lead to their demise apart from Jacob. In fact I believe Jacob’s actions lead to the death of the crew. He open the door to escape which left his crew exposed to heat and smoke. This whole thing was a mess.

[@washedupwarvet2027]

Did you see what the truck looked like after the fire? No chance anyone is surviving that if they tried to stay inside and ride out the fire. Only way you survive is to get out and keep moving down that road. Rip to those guys. Sad and tragic but don’t blame the survivor you asshole

[@jazzip]

@@washedupwarvet2027 he got out and left everyone else behind. They were a team were they not? So why not plan an exit strategy for everyone to escape? 🙄come out of your feelings. We wouldn’t have a successful military if it was every man for himself.

[@washedupwarvet2027]

@@jazzip Of course they were a team but that has nothing to do with causing their deaths. The fire is what killed them, no chance they survive trying to ride out the fire in that truck. Maybe the didn't want to leave. maybe they already passed out. I don't know those details. But to put blame on the sole survivor who wasn't even driving is not right.

[@washedupwarvet2027]

@@jazzip also, I just saw the video of the surviving firefighter and he’s lucky to even be alive. His whole body and face is burned up. If he hesitated he’s dead. There’s no other option other then death there.

[@user-nq5qc7jk1h]

Blaming Jacob is despicable. You have no way of knowing what you are talking about. Trying to escape a burning vehicle is an utterly natural instinct. Shame on you.

[@donaldgray2128]

Their should always be a chopper on stand by for evacuation

[@HutchinsonSkater]

Donald Gray were would they land

[@buckfuttler2877]

cant fly when you cant see.

[@johnnyhorizon8368]

Watching too much TV...

[@johnmilner3030]

failure was to drive down the road right into the fire. they should have gone up the road at full speed. perhaps they would be able to deploy then. sad. :(

[@rogerwong5719]

“...should have have gone up the road at full speed...deploy then...” Yeah - just like what NWR #6 thought at Thirty Mile in 2001? Not that intuitive...

[@johnmilner3030]

@@rogerwong5719 the two guys up the road obviously survived, so I don't get your point.

[@rogerwong5719]

@John Milner it’s been a year since we commented on this. Were u able to read the 30 Mile Fatality Investigation or watch the WF Lessons Learned video? Basically in heading uphill, in both incidents u would be heading in the direction where fire is aligned with slope & wind...the 30 Mile crew did the same thing & found themselves running out of time... Additionally the 30 Mile crew found out too late that by heading uphill the road dead ended...their escape route was already compromised so they too had to head down river. And we know what happened then... E642 could not have known what was further uphill on the road. Dead end? Better to head downhill back thru ur pre-determined escape route.

[@jazzip]

@@rogerwong5719 they were directed back downhill by Morgan. Unfortunately they did not know the terrain and ended up down an embankment. The only survivor was Jacob because he ditched his crew and escaped through a door which he left open allowing heat and smoke to compromise his crew.

[@slackjawedyokel1]

and sometimes the smoke makes driving out near impossible

[@peterscherling9311]

its also possible to scoop the water out of the lake by the c130 fitted with a water tank as it flys over the water! needs video camera and two pilots one a spotter! and a swing hinge c shape pipe! you build a learning colture just as you are doing! fear and lazy fire fighters that care!

[@allie2253]

you seem to have zero conception of the existence of the well equipped and professional aerial firefighters who do all of these 'brainstorm' ideas of yours full-time. maybe you should leave this to the pros

[@peterscherling9311]

the airforce needs to have conversion kits made for there c130s! never hire private aircraft! its way to expencive! 6000 dollars an hour who would start the fire to fight it! use the military as much as possible! also the airports need to be fitted to pump water into the plains! 12 inch lines from the lakes! also the trees need lightning rods! place to place!

[@mikel9567]

And who do you think pays for those Air Force tankers? On top of that, planes need to be converted to fight wildfires. You don't just throw a tank into a cargo plane and call it a tanker. The engines need to be modified to handle the conditions. The fuel and fluid systems need to be upgraded among other modifications. Yes, the Air force uses its cargo planes in firefighting roles when available, but they are limited in how they can attack the fire. Also consider the fact that firefighting is not the responsibility of the Air Force, or any military branch, and therefore takes a back seat to combat missions.

[@peterscherling9311]

Mike L if possible if not let the fire burn!

[@disguy2003]

Peter Scherling such an expert. Sure nobody thought of this. Mensa should induct you immediately!

[@phaseadept78]

I’m guessing this person has never seen what happens when lightning strikes a lightning rod