Embouchure Dysfunction Part 1 of 2

[@loranmaloney]

Chris told me to play thorough it alot, but that only helped a little. However, this emb change allowed me to play up to G above high C strongly during marching band in college. I haven't played much since, but have recently started. In the last 2 weeks, i have attempted to play my lower notes with the same emb as the high. Each day I'm able to play a lower note more strongly. And the BEST part, no more split or missed notes and all the frustration that accompanied. I think this will work.

[@raymondtindell8339]

psychological issues create more problems for trumpet players than anything physical !! i'm a trumpet player of 35 years, studied at U Miami (with Gilbert Johnson).....nice research and video

[@wilktone]

Thanks for your comment, Joe. I only worked with this student for a short time, but you're still getting only a small bit of the video clips. He was indeed blowing downstream with the higher placement. Yes, he had other issues that he was dealing with at the same time, but his troubles began shortly after he was changed from an upstream embouchure to a downstream one.

[@ReaperExecutor]

I had the exact same experience as the trumpet player in case study 2. I placed my mouthpiece on the red of my lips as i found that I had a better range when i did so. My teahcer asked me to place my mouthpice higher but I was insistent on it and i wasn't able to play properly when I did so. After some time, I decided to change my embouchure. Now, I roll my upper lip back and have a mediumhigh placement. My range in both higher and lower registers are better now.

[@Eweyhen]

I can and am only speaking for myself in this regard: But watching this video gave me a headache. Thinking about this would destroy me quicker than anything else I have experienced playing. Your research is, without a doubt, very interesting and should be held "in the pocket" for the few students I may have that will need this precise info. But I do agree with Raymond: Most of my issues and issues I have seen were purely mental. Again, speaking for me and me only.

[@loranmaloney]

Dear Dave, thank you for your videos. I began playing with a very low placement embouchure (90% bottom) with lower jaw very receded. In high school, I began lessons with Chris Jaudes. He moved my mouthpiece way up to 70% top lip. He also taught me to "pucker" in the upper register. I had a very frustrating emb break (that's what you call it) at E above mid C. My jaw would move way up and protrude out. This caused split or missed notes every time when ascending.

[@loranmaloney]

I seemed to have the exact same problem the tuba player had, but more drastic and obvious. It's taking some practice to play with my jaw more protruded in the lower register, but each day it feels easier. My mouthpiece never has moved much and stays in the same position on my lips, about 70% top lip. When I started playing again about a year ago, I experience all the same problems again with the emb break. Hopefully that is a thing of the past!! Thanks for the videos!!!

[@MrRepublican22]

Oh alright thanks for the info. It was an interesting looking piece that I have never seen before so it caught my attention didn't know about all of the specifications of it. Thanks for your help.

[@wilktone]

Thanks for your comments, Kyle. This video is not about mental issues, but physical issues. Most players can do a little fine tuning of the physical issues, but when serious problems arise it helps to have enough information to fix what's really happening. Best of luck to you.

[@wilktone]

There is more to fixing these embouchure issues than simply strength training. If the embouchure type doesn't suit the player's anatomy or the form is faulty the strength training doesn't address the actual source of the player's problems. That said, I do agree that many embouchure issues can be corrected by learning to build strength in the proper area (around the mouth corners), just not all of them.

[@bradclose4407]

Interesting. Do you think he has some intrinsic physical characteristic that makes him an "upstream" player, or do you think he just learned that way and didn't know how to successfully switch to downstream? @2:28 looks more like a standard downstream embouchure - when he sets it, he pushes his upper lip into the cup. The player we're talking about @6:07 looks like he's trying to curl back his upper lip against his teeth, as though he's not really convinced it should be the dominant lip.

[@jonaschrist7295]

Good tipps! Thank you! I am a 21 years old Swiss Euphonium player and I think I have a bit the same problem than this trumpet student at the end of the video...at the beginning of a tone (in a piano and in the low register) there is just air... And the sound is not so full and warm i think... Do you also video teach? Thanks for your Feedback! :)

[@revmklyons]

I have overcome an uncontrollable tremor. it was not easy for me. Very similar to the comments on this video, I was inconsistent in my motion, and my embouchure was flabby from all of the "just relax and breathe" advice I got from teachers. That just doesn't work for everyone. Treating the euphonium like a tuba did not work for me.

[@wilktone]

His playing works so much better as an upstream player. Please watch my video on brass embouchures and air stream direction or the 50 minute brass embouchure guide video to learn more about this.

[@wilktone]

Thanks for your comment, Tubadudeful. Do you have some constructive criticism or a specific disagreement that perhaps I can address?

[@wilktone]

Yep. I don't particularly recommend this for brass players, but that is one of the more common treatments. I'm not a medical professional, consult with your physician.

[@sneakybeaver13V2]

@wilktone I was using the C as an example because for a lot of us we tend to play it flat. i don't know how but the eyebrows raise it a few cents

[@wilktone]

@maltesers55 Depends on the problem. Your athletic analogy is useful, since many sports related issues aren't just lack of warming up/cooling down, but also problems of mechanical form. Understanding what good embouchure form is for your anatomy will really help target your warmup appropriately too.

[@wilktone]

That was a mouthpiece designed and built by Donald Reinhardt. I don't think many of them are still floating around, as the plastic develops small cracks in them and eventually is prone to breaking.

[@wilktone]

Certainly if you don't understand what you're analyzing and how to correct the real problems it's probably best to focus on breathing. Once you get more practiced in finding the root cause of embouchure problems it can become a very efficient way to teach because you spend less time on trial and error and more time making music.

[@sneakybeaver13V2]

@wilktone Everything you do as a musician should be done with the maximum amount of relaxation as possible. The technique we use does that and gives us the best sound on and off the field.

[@f0615388]

Really great video, I learned alot. I noticed you're using a Kelly mouthpiece. Would you recommend them? DO they have a good sound?

[@wilktone]

@Kitts90 Sometimes brass players can learn some things by practicing a different instrument for a while, and it also can work in the reverse (trombonists playing trumpet). However, big lips don't preclude someone for low brass and smaller lips don't make someone better at trumpet - those are widely held myths without any basis in fact.

[@for-real-tho]

I could be one of your patients. I've been playing the trumpet for 15 years and it's giving me a really hard time. I started out as a good talent, then I hit a wall. After 15 years of practicing I can barely play a high C, when playing an etude or orchestral piece, even an A is causing me problems. I can play many things I've been playing Arban, Clarke, Dubois, Maxime-Alphonse, Bach, Charlier, etc. but I can only practice about 15-20 minutes a day, before my lips completely give up.

[@collinf2578]

I have noticed that when i play i have a red ring after i am done playing and i am wondeeing how i stop that i know that not pushing down as hard will help but when i do i dont get the sound that i get when i push down hard. I would love to know before entering my 3rd year playing trombone.Thank you!

[@DanielaGarcia-kb1jt]

Guns Below I know it's late but I would play 10 minutes of long tones in 1 day,you'll see the results ,it's really quick.

[@wilktone]

@f0615388 I only use the Kelly mouthpieces for embouchure study, not usually for actual performance.

[@wilktone]

I never said it was a good idea or even effective, just that this is a treatment that neurologists sometimes recommend for focal dystonia in the lip area. For obvious reasons this is not a useful treatment for brass musicians, which is why I suggest in this video that correcting embouchure form is a much better option.

[@noriegamusic7935]

Can somebody help me? I'm trying to play a song on trombone and theres a certain part on the song where whenever I try to play a high D, it gets really hard to play that note and it feels like the inside of my throat is open and it becomes impossible to play it and I end up playing a really muffled high bb. The only way I can play high D or Eb is if I do a really weird looking face and literally use all my strength to push my mouth on the mouthpeice and making a really big double chin. When I do that, the note sounds like there is a lot of resistance to it. I need like serious help to prevent this because I've got a concert coming up and I don't want this to affect my playing, especially in jazz band.

[@marcusreynolds1345]

MaelstromGD Geometry Dash Hi try playing the top Bb in 5th and gently move from 5th to 4th to 3rd checking as you move through each position check that quality of the sound does not deteriorate. If that is too advanced ..... no disrespect. Play the F in 6th and work semitones or tones towards the Bb. Hope this helps.

[@wilktone]

See other videos I've posted here to see what you're asking about, euphoniumtillidie. I am peripherally interested in embouchure dysfunction of the sort I've documented here, but I'm not a medical professional and can't comment on issues like dystonia and other health disorders. This contrasts with a handful of other music teachers who do claim to treat embouchure dystonia.

[@Railroadhill]

There are two ways to form an emboucher , by artificially contriving muscular positions or the persuit of artistic goals . Human wiring , sensory and motor are seperate . It is not possiblle to make a statement and ask a question simultaneously . I would play simple exercises on a mouthpiece visualizer and mouthpiece only , focusing on the external environment and not myself or an instrument . Sing a song on the wind . Thank you !

[@wilktone]

Almost forgot to mention that if you watch part 2 of this two-part video you might see some problems that many teachers would have diagnosed as being "mental" issues. In that part I show how looking for the actual physical causes of embouchure issues can be useful, provided you know what you're looking for and how to correct them.

[@s93lnknprk]

my lower lip curls in as I ascend into the upper register, is this a problem? and what kind of embouchure do I have if so?

[@SwIsH189]

when i'm playing, i often shift my mouthpiece around my mouth and change my embouchure. for example, when i am playing high notes, i move my mouthpiece away from the center of my mouth. is this normal? is this bad?

[@bigpardner]

Interesting video, however you do what everyone else has done and ignore the most important part of the embrochure, at least for some having difficulties, the inside, unseen part, the teeth and the way the teeth enable, or prevent, the lips from doing what they need to do, especially as the range and tension go up. Probably this is more so with the smaller horns and mouthpieces. Soft playing, long tones, patience , and breath attacks getting the tongue out the picture, are helpful.

[@wilktone]

Thanks for your reply, "bigpardner." My dissertation actually explored the role that a player's anatomical features, including the teeth, correlate to the embouchure types I allude to in this video. I don't believe that the size of the brass instrument is as important as you give credit, otherwise most of what you write seems plausible to me.

[@wilktone]

@sneakybeaver13V2 I would take your comment with a grain of salt. The embouchure should change (or else the pitch wouldn't). The eyebrows aren't really part of your embouchure, but I think you're speaking tongue in cheek there.

[@wilktone]

@sneakybeaver13V2 Nice and grats on the award! When I wrote my doctoral dissertation on brass embouchures I wasn't able to find anything in the literature about eyebrows and playing high excepting to avoid excessive motion in the face like moving your eyebrows. Only C on euphonium? Keep working and you'll extend that range! :P

[@trumpetchannelGR]

I play the trumpet 20 years .I have to say that this video was good but not enough. We need more examples , more trumpet players more analysis...

[@sethisamusicmachine]

@sfloresita13 I am not affiliated with this video,but if you think the mouthpiece might be too small,then you should try out mouthpieces with deeper cup sizes.Keep searching until you find the mouthpiece you sound the best on.Also if you are still having a problem with dry lips make sure you are hydrated and try licking your lips before you put the mouthpiece on.Remember,in order to produce a good sound it is going to take a lot of practice and it will be a gradual process.Don't get discouraged!

[@Thejazzmentors]

Thanks for your video. Your video is well done. Trumpet players that don't suffer from a dysfunctional embouchure don't understand what you are talking about. You are making some insightful suggestions. If you haven't bought this already, I suggest that you buy "Broken Embouchure" at www.embouchures.com. It makes many of the same points you have made.

[@wilktone]

Hi, Steve. I do have Lucinda Lewis's books and don't agree with her basic premise. Her "embouchure overuse syndrome" is too broadly defined and her "statistics" she cites are, by her own admission, based on personal experiences and self-reporting and not valid for scientific inquiry. There is some good advise in there for some player's situation, but it's not going to be so helpful for others.

[@ultrakool]

louie armstrong, dizzy gillespie and wynton marsalis, to name a few, blows that conjecture clean out of the water

[@wilktone]

@DaEuph Try working with some of the players in this video who ran into problems because they were trying to make it so simple. It's not so easy for everyone!

[@wilktone]

That's hard to say. My dissertation research wasn't able to find any single anatomical feature that means a player will be upstream or downstream. If you haven't already watched some of my other embouchure videos here you might find some information in those helpful. Thanks.

[@bradclose4407]

Do you think this is an example of being an innate upstream player, or more a matter of not switching horses in the middle of the stream?

[@bradclose4407]

Then on what do you base your statement that he "has the anatomy to be an upstream player"?

[@wilktone]

Hi, Joe. This player had been working with someone else who advised him to start blowing (not buzzing) before setting the mouthpiece which resulted in this unusual setup he has. I think that he has the anatomy to be an upstream player and that the change was the what caused his trouble to start with. Since then while trying to fix this issue he's developed others. I've lost touch with him and think he gave up playing, though, so I don't know for sure what happened.

[@pchantreau]

As evidenced by John Faddis, Clifford Brown, Lee Morgan, etc, etc... See also Gerard, one of the Mnozil trombone players.

[@MrRepublican22]

What is the name of the mouthpiece at 4:08?

[@wilktone]

That's pretty similar to what most believe in the U.S. too, but that doesn't mean that it's the best way. If the only tool you have in your tool box every problem begins to look like a nail.

[@wilktone]

How do you know more problem ares psychological? Sometimes it's the physical issues that trigger the psychological. I don't think embouchure issues are so cut and dry as this.

[@asakapala619]

i`ve making tremor while playing trumpet....how do i cure that?

[@bradclose4407]

One more question and I'll stop bugging you. What specifically about his anatomy makes him intrinsically an upstream player?

[@angebiennej.4254]

I've watched so many videos 🙄i still have don't get the embouchure. I know you have to buzz your lips, open the the inside of your mouth, keep the corners of your lips firm, and use your air to make them buzz but I still can't get a proper tone out of it or any not higher then a G on the trombone

[@Juan_Bone09]

4:02 what mouthpiece is that

[@for-real-tho]

And I always have to stop for a few seconds after every 2nd or 3rd line. Now I don't even warm up properly, because that doesn't help me, just makes me even more tired. It's a complete disaster when I have to play 2 hours nonstop in the orchestra, my lips get so tired after 1 hour, I have to rest after every fifth measure, otherwise I couldn't even play a low C. I tried to give up, but I just can't after so many years, and I don't have the ambition to learn a new instrument.

[@wilktone]

@jazzbones1 You can learn more about me by looking at my profile or going to my web site. I prefer that people consider my ideas on their own merit, not based on who I am, who I've played with, or what degrees I've earned.

[@wilktone]

@ReaperExecutor If it actually made your range better to move the mouthpiece placement higher, then you probably shouldn't have been playing upstream to start with. On the other hand, it's possible you would play best upstream, but hadn't worked out how to do so correctly. It's impossible to say without being able to watch you play.

[@bradclose4407]

@6:07 - You say his attempt to utilize the common 2/3 upper 1/3 lower embouchure "makes things worse". Seems like a superficial analysis, as he obviously isn't doing it correctly. He moves the placement up, but is still trying to blow upstream. He would need to blow downstream. Looks like he is spreading his lips around the mp rather than putting them INTO the mp as he should, then puffing out his upper lip. Allowing air to puff out around his embouchure like that is going to cause difficulties.

[@Keygo]

I'm no expert, but I believe that the college student at 5:05 should be playing a bigger instrument. He has big lips and therefore a harder time on the trumpet. Which I do have a friend with bigger lips playing trumpet, but just saying it might have helped if he were switched to a low brass instrument.

[@bradclose4407]

I think you're engaging in circular reasoning. Obviously the guy sounds better when he shifts the mouthpiece down because he learned that way. When he tries to play with a downstream embouchure, he doesn't do it correctly, because he is still trying to revert to his upstream habits. That doesn't necessarily mean he is innately suited to one or the other.

[@wilktone]

The problem is that this often creates a false dichotomy. Only pursuing musical expression is what got some of these players into trouble in the first place. Embouchure analysis without the goal of making music is also limiting. Arnold Jacobs dismissed embouchure in favor of song & wind, but he never demonstrated an accurate understanding of embouchure form and function. I'd take his thoughts here with a grain of salt. Use the right tool at the right time.

[@bradclose4407]

Some drummers use traditional grip; some used matched grip. It's because they happened to learn that way, not because of any innate physical characteristics of their fingers. If they tried to switch mid-career, they wouldn't sound good at first, but would need time to re-learn. You should be careful about pronouncing that you know for a fact that a given person is "physically suited" to be an upstream or downstream player, unless you have some actual physical evidence as to why.

[@martin1024]

There is no such thing as focal dystonia with brass players...

[@crustacifixion]

hey can you put the video with subs spanish? i don´t understand nothing, jaja thanks

[@wilktone]

Joe, it seems you have an axe to grind here. KZbin is a poor medium for this sort of discussion. I'd like to invite you to visit my web site where there is less of a restriction on how long a reply we can post. There is a correlation (not causation) between certain physical characteristics and embouchure type. However, there is no single feature that I can point to that guarantees a player will belong to an embouchure type. Some trial and error is usually necessary. One type will work best.

[@wilktone]

attila840702, I have students, not "patients." I'm music teacher, not a medical professional. Please talk to your doctor for medical issues, never a music teacher - especially one who makes medical diagnoses! As far as your problems, I have to see you play (preferably in person) in order to offer any advice. Swing by my website at wilktone.com to learn how to contact me if you can get out to my neck of the woods or want to take video of your chops.

[@sneakybeaver13V2]

Look dude your embrouchure shouldn't have to change to change drastically pitch. The only that should change is the air and tongue. And an occasional lift in the eye brows to raise a flat note slightly

[@wilktone]

@MrsPSALMS8510 I think this is a big myth.

[@Marizumii]

Hi

[@elliotgreen9712]

Botox injections? Really??

[@combo879]

Botox injection into lips? Cmon, thats stupid...

[@Masapyon979]

口揺れてる

[@terryhink]

This is not at all true. It is dangerous to put stock in such nonsense in the world of brass pedagogy.

[@Tubadudeful]

What complete trash. This is not how one plays a brass instrument. Arnold Jacobs would be sick. Shameful.