Will it make the boat go faster? - Drew Ginn

Food for thought

[@patrickmanning3160]

Good points Drew. Darn, I spent my whole rowing career trying to perfect the more dynamic quick hands away, decelerating slide approach. Wonder what the difference would have been the other way around? Patrick Manning, U.S. Men's 4-, 1992

[@sixamrower]

Thanks Drew! This is what we all naturally feel. My gut intuition never figured out the quick arms away. Just played along in crew boats when coaches push me out of my comfort zone...its reassuring to hear what you have to say.

[@pancakewhale]

I watch this daily for enlightenment.

[@alexanderturnbullvollmer3320]

I have been a successful U19 &U23 sweep rower using this exact philosophy, and funny enough i have encountered many coaches also telling me to speed up the back end. I never listened, and in the end my results spoke for themselves. I agree 100% with Drew, and have felt it myself. When you do accelarate that slidespeed a bit and catch it at the right moment its like you are flying.

[@ryancoulson2081]

The GOAT rowing philosophy!! 🐐 Blows my mind how many ppl are still doing it the "stupid" way 😅

[@jeremymartin9763]

Great film, Drew.Thanks. I believe that the debate about the relaxed recovery versus the lively recovery has been going on for at least 100 years. Steve Fairbairn wrote about the perils of the lively recovery that was being taught in the early 20th century. He recommended an easy and lazy recovery and then squaring the blade and taking the catch all in one quick action. The East German rowing textbook, Rudern, recommended an acceleration into frontstops to encourage the best run of the boat,

[@damienjones3345]

I think this is how Ian Thorpe swims. He looks like he’s in slow motion... but he using fluid dynamics to the highest efficiency.

[@AxelPRC]

the germans were very fluid and had great timing around the front, they were a dream to watch. Nothing forced everything relative to the boat speed, thats what I think when I see that German 8+

[@ianwatson2019]

Rowed the way of boat 2 through the 90's as a lightweight and using your favoured technique rowed a 5.48 2k in 1994. With a controlled recovery the boat stay up out and light to pick off at the catch. Great piece will share it with the group I coach now.

[@scottdaustin1967]

Thanks Drew - you've said what many of us feel! Cheers

[@anderscarlson5384]

Just had a paddle with a new guy “Josh dunkly smith” he is only the fastest man on the planet now 😂

[@rubengideonse1173]

8 years later and the Dutch quads got a time of 5:39 thanks to this technique

[@AxelPRC]

This video has done more than I would like to think when it comes to changing the way people are rowing today. I was just an U23 that was a fan of Drew Ginn and wanted others to see it. Great to see the video inspiring others to find their own bit of magic

[@EA-zn4up]

It just… makes so much sense, I’m going to try and use this principle next year for u19 trials

[@roycooper6622]

Simply to say that this video transformed my rowing, sculling and coaching. I have seen nothing to match it since. Nothing has challenged it and everything that I have developed as a coach to this day is consistent with it. My guess is that it has done more for rowing world wide than any other attempt to influence our technique. Nice one Drew

[@AxelPRC]

Yea I would say the premise of the video beyond just talking about rhythm but actually logically thinking about how to make a boat go faster beyond has been big for the rowing community. I'm sure old heads would disagree with this but even just 10yrs ago the depth of understanding around WHY we do what we do wasnt even close to where it is today. In pockets of the sport maybe but not this widespread. It's usually just some old bugger who was taught by another old bugger and never challenged their ideas. I still see coaches saying "rowing has changed in 100yrs" but those ones are dying out. I copped the audio from Drew's blog when I was an U23 rep in 2012 and put video to it. Incidentally it's made quite a profound impact on the community. Not my words but happy to bring it to KZbin 😂

[@roycooper6622]

@@AxelPRC Thanks for this. I should have said, "Nice one Axel" too. The video arrangement really does it justice. 😊

[@dmwhoyt21x]

Roy, keep working at it. I limited myself to just collegiate rowing, and expected this technique to dominate. 50 years later, only a few coaches seem to understand this dynamic recovery. As a technique change, it is not dominating yet. Still must be combined with great athletes training for strength and fitness. Majority of boats one sees in videos are not using it. Though, ability to row sustained high stroke rates is aided by this, so in some respects it is adapted into other areas of technique.

[@billm108]

This is the absolute best video on rowing anywhere anytime. I just started this spring, three medals in the fall head races, one in 1x, now rowing at home in 4 seat wiht #1 club crew, who has a lot of leg, and now also alternate cox wiht #2 crew who is more subtle.. Who will win next fall? I guess we have the spring sprints to deal with first, but whoever pays attention to this will be it. Personally I like the long ones.....

[@theSculler]

I think 12:10 in the video, when you leave Twaddle and Bridgewater on the spot despite rating 4 spm lower than they are, is such a good live demonstration of your argument. Of course you need a lot of power for that, yet I don't think you were stronger than them in terms of raw horsepower (or were you? if I recall correctly, Bridgewater held a record on the erg back then). I'd say it was just you letting the boat run so beautifully even in flat-out conditions that made the difference. The recovery seems to last forever despite your rating 38.

[@johnfaulkner1156]

Hi Drew. I agree totally, I have been coaching the Dk lightweights from 1980-1988. and brought this style of rowing, which actually is a modified Karl Adams style. love to go in detail with you. Great to hear your opinion

[@jeremymartin9763]

On the other hand...proponents of the lively recovery claim that it prevents the bows of the boat from diving down into the water and stopping the boat. So it might be that the optimal recovery style depends on the design of the boat as well.

[@redskater42]

Now, Drew, your theory is one of an Australian. No disrespect, the Aussies have an amazing rowing team and really represent their country well in both scull and sweep. I agree with what you say when "crew 1", zips the hands and slows the legs, slowing the boat down by plunging the stern in the water. Well, is it not the inverse with the with "crew 2"? The slow and lazy turn around of "crew 2" plunges the bow into the water when the crew is "gathering" the finish. Creating more surface area...

[@dlm5536]

Totally agree, the longer you sit at backstops the better as it let’s the boat run abd more economical talk about rating 34 spm .. I’ve done a 500 m in 16 stokes !! I … gone are the days when I use to shout in Cambridge “Time on the slide is time wasted !!!!”

[@csabour9]

Very interesting analysis

[@AxelPRC]

I'm not Drew but ill have to disagree that it plunges the bow into the water. Unless you collapse into the finish through being unsupported through the back or hauling the finish in with an overuse of the arms you will not plunge the bow down. Look at the way their boat trims in the water and you will see this. As for your other comment, yea i agree but what hes saying is that its hydrodynamically the fastest way to row. If a crew always rowed like this they would be comfortable doing it.

[@davidohotmail]

how many times you see the difference between crews/scullers is how one shortens the slide (maybe tiring or just trying to lift the rating) while the other remains long and rhythmic....

[@DiceRowing]

I know this is an old podcast, and I do understand the points. I kinda want to see a side by side video of a 2- rowing at the same rate doing it with the quick hands away. Hard for me to visualize the differences I guess. Awesome video though!

[@alexanderturnbullvollmer3320]

I will be a coach soon and i will discuss this video with my rowers

[@i8jammydodgers]

I row there :3 and love the concept

[@RiaTrinity]

Wish we got water like that.

[@leoashcroft7165]

Damnit I want to start rowing again

[@AxelPRC]

Do it!

[@eddielyne8190]

How does this compare with the way the kiwi pair rowed?

[@johnnewcomb8589]

Quick hands can cause a quick slide to begin with which this video indicates can be counter productive. We should take particular note of this video. I believe it has much merit.

[@AxelPRC]

hahaha it's gone "rowing viral" :P nice to see that people are listening to his thoughts.

[@bradydalrumple7672]

We are debating two rowers with the SAME mass travelling over the SAME distance over the SAME time. Regardless of how one chooses to go about that the WORK will be the same. We are talking about internal forces so, all else equal, they will make no difference to boat speed. But not all else is equal. The pitch of the boat will change depending on the center of mass so the correct answer depends, in part, on where the boat runs best - do you want to be spending more time with the athlete's mass in the bow, the stern or in between? That answer depends on the shell and the rig. Also, the energy required to move the mass at different rhythms may be different - is it less taxing for the athlete to move the hands away quickly and ease into the catch or the reverse? Which muscles are bearing the burden of accelerating and decelerating the mass and how does that contribute to fatigue? Drew "guarantees" this style is easier. For what it is worth, in my experience I would say the most natural recovery "flows" a little bit more smoothly around the back end compared to what Drew illustrates but without the sharp quickness out of the bow that some coaches swear by. Finally, the really important factor for boat speed is the efficiency of the drive - does one technique lend itself to better blade placement and extraction? Is it easier to grab the water if you are crawling into the catch? Is it easier to extract the blade cleanly if you are taking your time at the backstops? At very high levels I would say these technical details can be of equal quality regardless of recovery method. For crews with intermediate technical proficiency there may be meaningful tradeoffs. At a minimum both methods can be useful as "drills" to emphasize increased care at one end of the stroke or the other. In my view neither way is "stupid" nor guaranteed to make the boat go faster.

[@MrPyngu]

Brady Dalrumple half true. You are right, you cannot accelerate the speed of the system (boat + rower) while not having your blades in the water. BUT there is an external force: friction. The higher the boat speed, the higher the friction (to which extend, i do not know, if anybody does, i would be very interested). By pushing your arms out and starting to roll, you do make the boat faster and the rower slower, leaving the whole system with the same speed of course. But the difference is that by accelerating the boat you do increase the friction - thus making the whole system slower. Now do we want to break early in the stroke or late? late of course, which is why we pause first, and move to the catch as late as possible - to "hit the brake" as late as possible. The lower the stroke rate, the higher the effect.

[@samb8414]

+Brady Dalrumple No it's about rowing hard

[@JamesSmith-qr7be]

+Brady Dalrumple He is saying everything is identical except the recovery. The recovery has a huge impact on boat speed if you look after your boat speed in the recovery you will go faster then an equal athlete who does not. Drew is also saying that if two identical athletes used these two different techniques one would sustain a high pressure for longer as every stroke is lighter in the front turn. Basically this video is about efficiency which is absolutely critical in this sport.

[@penguinshin]

From a physics view on the entire system, (boat + water + rowers), the amount of work being done, like Brady says, is the same no matter what the stroke looks like unless you have significant wasteful motion, or if you have unequal speed throughout the stroke/race. Since drag is proportional to the square of the velocity, you really want to hit your splits equally the entire way, and your speed should try to be as constant as possible with respect to the stroke phases. There are a lot of other considerations that can throw off some of these factors, however. If it takes significant energy / effort from a weak muscle group to maintain constant speed within the stroke, then either you'll have to focus on improving that muscle group long term so it can sustain full speed throughout the stroke, or you'll have to sacrifice some of the speed during that phase of the stroke - this isn't just limited to recovery. The drive power curve also has a big effect - if your drive is such that you need to use your back more to create consistent speed, then your total power output potential will be less than if you sacrificed some of your consistency within the drive for more power by using your legs. And from a long-term perspective, your legs have more potential to grow in strength than any other part of your body. So basically, I've come to the conclusion that you want to have consistency in speed, but you also want to maximize the development and use of the strongest muscle groups and since those two goals are not in line with each other, you'll have to just test out different combinations of those two things to see which produces the fastest boat speed. I don't think you can make a statement that says in general that quick hands away is better or worse than lazy hands away, especially without knowing what your power curve looks like.

[@dmwhoyt21x]

Track wedges are delivered with Pocock shells, and I have seen them in other shells. They make an accelerated recovery easier. Coaches wanting a more controlled recovery remove them. The physics of a bit faster recovery roll are true. To be tested, a crew needs to understand the difference, and be willing to modify their stroke. Not all rowers can do that. To test, one would need two 4+ crews evenly matched on the water, and train one to work on the slide change and perfect it. If they got significantly faster, one could attribute it to the change. And all other parts of their training would need to be controlled and the same. Not easily done. If some program adopts this wholeheartedly, and dominates their opponents consistently, the change will draw attention. Strong-willed athletes who row differently may be unwilling to change.

[@skateboi4127]

Josh now has the 2k wr loll

[@DaEvilBoombox]

80k views?! Bruh didn't know you were a NZ Petone rower and a KZbin sensation!! 😂

[@AxelPRC]

h t t p : / / drewginn.blogspot.co.nz/2013/02/rowing-fast-rhythm-flow.html?Feed:+drewginn+(Drew+Ginn)

[@redskater42]

Ok, I see what you are saying. I would have to agree also. However, would you agree with me if I said it would be a wise coaching decision to teach juniors a quick turn around?

[@ianwatson2019]

@Ian Watson meant to say in a 4- in Paris.

[@AxelPRC]

wrong side of the Oarsome foursome but a silver medal regardless. You must have been a fantastic athlete and I'm sure that if you guys had speed that you were doing more than one thing right. More than anything this rant is about finding what works for you to make the boat go fast. Its not always the same but an identity of a crew, having something that you go to that makes your boat move consistently is key. Thats what I take from it at least. The best crews in the world have an identity.

[@aleya-shawnaadams2990]

Can you post a video on how vessels move on water for 3 to 4 year old children.

[@ginabin6644]

They don't . . . . 3 to 4 year old children should not be rowing it is not good for their backs. Introduce your child to rowing at age 12 with sculling only. Once they reach 15 they should be ok to start sweeping. Otherwise they will develop back problems in the long run.

[@redskater42]

between the hull and the water. I'm not saying that you are wrong with your theory. Your theory is correct. However, what I'm stating is that there are certain "pros" and "cons" with different styles of rowing. My theory is that is comes down to the stern pair setting an impeccable rhythm and the crew itself, i.e the rowers compatibility. The overall method of establishing that rhythm is not set through a style of rowing but is decided by what the crew is comfortable with.

[@dmwhoyt21x]

Part of Fairbairn's philosophy of rowing, was "let the crew figure it out". Is their a "best" technique ? Maybe. Is it required to be fast ? No. Fastest ? Maybe. A great crew that likes to row together and for each other, and is together, can have differences from an ideal stroke. Joy in rowing and training, and better training can still beat an ideal stroke, with a slightly less capable or less dedicated crew. A one second loss rowing is only 1/330 in a 5:30 2k race. A difference in performance of 0.3 %. Barely measurable. It still comes down to strength and fitness for an extremely high cardiac workload, and rowing ability, together. Row with confidence. If you have an "Ah ha!" moment on a bit of technique improvement, get buy in for all to adapt to it. Or just row the same, get stronger, get fitter, and you will get faster.

[@bennichols1113]

Of course. Dale Mahr 30 years ago 😉

[@pbonarrigo]

yup

[@danloubser6133]

That crew at 8:00's slight pause, me likey.

[@wochee]

The point about getting the bows out of the water is valid. From what Drew said, he believes a fast rockover and slowing into frontstops has the effect of pushing the stern down too low in the water. There are two elements working against the boat in both cases. One is the increase in wetted area, and the other is the force pushing the bows (or stern) down into the water. This creates a displacement wave off the side of the boat, which drains energy better used going forwards.

[@TheCruisingKiwis]

Yep

[@DiceRowing]

I guess 10 min in is pretty close to that

[@thebrendinator]

BC high rowing bring u here?

[@benlewis2475]

The GB 8 in Sydney had insanely fast hands away so you are slightly undoing your own argument here!

[@AxelPRC]

I think the fundamental question of "Will It Make The Boat Go Faster?" is separate from how Drew sees rowing Vs someone else. It's just a question to critically think about the why behind what we do. Cause and effect. Too much rowing at least in my time we just did blindly without asking that question. Clearly there are many ways to skin a cat here. Both the Sydney 8+ and Drew's boats were really empathetic to the boat, they moved with and listened to what the boat wanted/needed. The Sydney 8+ didn't de-accelerate on the recovery, they also have a lovely soft knee break and were pictures of relaxation so the parallels between the styles are there apart from slight differences in hand speed around the back. Was good seeing you at Henley mate! Best of luck at Tideway!

[@seanwhitehall4652]

What happened to the original?

[@AxelPRC]

The orginal podcast has since been removed I believe

[@under0120]

誰か日本語に翻訳してくれ

[@under0120]

Please translate to someone Japanese:I

[@johngill4140]

I did not wish to be disrespectful to a three times gold medal winner but I believe a degree in engineering is more relevant to this discussion.

[@felixdieu]

John Gill guess that 3 Olympic Golds are a good anecdotes. Having an engineering degree means nothing if your model is flawed and limited to Newton's 2nd law. Then add the fact that this pair had the full backing of the AIS scientists, biomechanics,...

[@askiff1415]

Ahhh the Marlow man speaks = best you keep quite on this subject else folks may think you missed the whole point. Maybe Marlow mens results reflect such mindset…..🙄

[@johngill4140]

Please read Newton's laws and stop giving me anecdotes. above 20spm we do not!!! go up the slide. Also weight on the feet is a force which axcts as a break