Will This Fix Laythe?

[@darthsenate7817]

Laythe could just have a lot of geothermal activity on it, some visual mods support the idea of volcanoes and there are geysers on the surface with breaking ground, unlike Io, this volcanism wouldn’t simply dissipate heat because it is trapped by the atmosphere. But overall it seems more than possible that laythe could have salty oceans with just a small amount of tidal heating, nice video.

[@curious_ksp_]

I am not an expert in geology, so just stayed with what I know: physics 🙃

[@ivans9132]

Totally agreed. The Breaking ground expansion confirms it bc you have some small geysers on the surface, suggesting a potential geothermal activity. So it is definitely possible laythe has a small tidal heating (supposing it has a tiny eccentricity eg: e

[@pinheirokde]

A core made of mostly decaing uranium

[@Magi..]

@@curious_ksp_ you should also consider vall and tylo since they're very close to laythe like REALLY close

[@curious_ksp_]

@@Magi.. as this method i used overestimates the effects of TH, i found it not necessary to include the moons. It complicates everything by a lot, and it will not help us as we already are overestimating. So that is why i kept it like this. It just takes more time than is it is worth for, just for technicalities. Hope this helps.

[@victor_silva6142]

This made Laythe sound like a actual world! Love the lore!

[@DogeRAM-no8pj]

You could test your equation in a bunch of moons with known temperatures and use the power of statistics to find the averege error or deviation and aply it to laythe. But with e=0 it won't mean mutch anyway

[@curious_ksp_]

Something to keep in mind in the future maybe

[@vraxos9220]

these videos are REALLLY GOOOD. keep it up :)

[@Manool-21]

Nice study! Concerning the eccentricities of Io and Laythe, I can add that tidal friction leads not only to the heating, but also to tidal locking (observed in all Jool satellites actually) and to the circularization of the orbit. But in the case of Io, it keeps residing on the orbit with a non-zero eccentricity (and keeps heating) because of the Laplace resonance of 1:2:4 with Europa and Ganymede. Their disturbed orbits are not described easily with constant orbital elements, and despite KSP does not include interaction between planets, orbits of Laythe, Vall and Tylo resemble this resonance closely, and one can probably think that Laythe's orbit is something very roughly averaged over time. However, relative positions of Laythe, Vall and Tylo make their "resonance" very unstable, so I am not sure at all if developers intended something like this deliberately. My source: Murray K., Dermott S., Solar system dynamics (2009); in particular sections 1.6 and 4.10-11. Also, concerning the possible high temperature of Laythe from your calculation. Eccentricity of 0.004 is close to real Io eccentricity, so such assumption is reasonable. But the main reason of so high calculated temperature is probably not even the method that overestimates the amount of heating, but the structure of Kerbol system. You see, Kerbol system is shrinked in roughly 10 times compared to Solar system, and masses are 100 times smaller (so g is almost the same, but orbital velocities are smaller, making it easier to travel; densities of matter are unrealistically high, being 10 times larger than typical values in ours). As tidal forces are proportional to mass and to inverse radius in power of 3, one can expect 10 times stronger tidal forces in Kerbol system. Moreover, orbital periods are ~3 times smaller, so the rate of tidal heating can be insanely high. As a countermeasure, probably, if bodies have unrealistically high density, they can be unrealistically solid as well, much less prone to tidal deformation and thus releasing less heat in result.

[@curious_ksp_]

At 4:26 and 6:12, to the power of 1/4 is a mistake, it should not be there. When you have so many equations and things in your head, things get jumbled up lol

[@JTelli786]

I recall reading a book a while back called The Teeming Universe, it explores hypothetical alien worlds and delves into the biology of said aliens. The first world in the book is called Menir, it is a cold world with a little liquid water on it and it is explained that the reason for this is because of a concentration of peroxide in the water of the world, peroxide has a high freezing point compared to water, keeping it liquid.

[@Meowzofficial]

You could make a video about wether ksp 1 or 2 systems are actually acurrate to either their real counter parts or from a planet forming perspective

[@curious_ksp_]

I can try, as we have some knowledge about planet and star formation, but there are actually still a lot of things that are not known yet about planet formation. The James Webb Space Telescope will probably help with that, as it is able to look through the dust of star system that are forming right now. I love the idea, so I'll keep it in mind!

[@Meowzofficial]

@@curious_ksp_ Perfect !

[@gavros9636]

It should be mentioned as I haven't seen anyone mention this but Laythe has another problem, the atmosphere is breathable. The atmosphere is 80% nitrogen and 20% oxygen like Earth and Kerbin.

[@Peteboi64932]

And a lot of sulphur. This can drastically affect the atmosphere’s thermal conductivity. Because Sulphur is more conducive (0,269 W/(mK), compared to oxygen’s 0.02674 W/(mK)), it retains worse the temperature. This means that more temperature will escape. Btw I’m not an astrophysicist, but a 13y/o. (Flexing)

[@Peteboi64932]

I have an idea: Laythe has a lot of craters. It has enormous ones and small ones, so my theory is that if it’s constantly bombarded by asteroids, it’s heated up because of: 1. The energy asteroids release when heating up in the thermosphere 2. The collision of those asteroids, vibrating the whole planet and heating up everything with the fireball. If small asteroids collide every (say,) 300 years, it could heat up the planet. This way, the planet is constantly heated up by those objects, so that it has a stable temperature. This can also explain both the giant craters and the magmatic activity.

[@spacebeans4985]

you should see if Jool could actually be green in real life

[@curious_ksp_]

Good idea! I'll do that for sure!

[@deltainfinium869]

Maybe there's photosynthetic life saturating its atmosphere? That's always been my hypothesis

[@CASA-dy4vs]

It’s probably just a big green sphere of green gas

[@juno_idiot]

It actually depends on the color of the gas.

[@Fugging771]

The color of gas giants (not ice giants) depends on the composition of their clouds, and the composition of their clouds depends on the amount of energy the planet receives from its parent star, because the composition of the clouds depends on the temperature. According to the report, a planet far enough from its parent star is an orange or ocher series like our Jupiter and Saturn due to the occurrence of ammonia clouds, and closer to that, in temperature ranges similar to 0°C, it has a blue color like Neptune due to the influence of water clouds. So we can hypothesize that Jool's green color may come from the coexistence of yellow ammonia clouds and blue water clouds. Another hypothesis is that its atmosphere is filled with photosynthetic microorganisms, and another interesting hypothesis is that it actually contains a lot of chlorine gas, which is a green color. It is also similar to the idea that Eve's purple atmosphere is the influence of iodine gas. However, all three hypotheses seem to have limitations to explain Jool's very clear green color.

[@Swagmaster07]

Thicker atmospheres can change the heat too, venus has a very thick atmosphere and its the reasson why it gets so hot there.

[@1000-THR]

this is the kind of content i subscribed for

[@shey_clone]

didint the devs say jool was very warm or something? how warm would jool actually have to be to warm the oceans of laythe up? or maybe laythe is like a new planet and it's oceans are still absorbing the cold and freezing?

[@curious_ksp_]

I could calculate how warm Jool would have to be to provide that heat, it is actually not that difficult, something I can try next time!

[@JessiBlessinger]

tylo would also likely have a major effect on heating because it orbits slower also you have to add the energy provided by kerbol

[@weyland049]

Great video my man

[@nievv5890]

Can't Tylo or Vall cause squashing and stretching as well? Tylo has a lot of gravity. And it might just be enough to cause tidal heating.

[@curious_ksp_]

My response to someone with the same question: I think those effects would be minimal, as the masses of the other moons are several orders of magnitude smaller than Jool. It indeed does have an effect, but not in a major way like Jool I think.

[@MDE_never_dies]

​@@curious_ksp_ I'd argue it is an essential component of the effect. The reason Io is so active is not just Jupiter but the interaction of the moons acting together in resonance COMBINED with Jupiter's gravity. The effect has to be taken into account in KSP because although less massive, the moons are even closer together (Too close even for n-body calculations), and the gravitational pertubations alone on Laythe's orbit would increase it's orbital eccentricity significantly (something that is sadly not represented with it's perfectly circular orbit). In my KSP worlds I give Laythe a slight eccentricity similiar to Io to reprisent this and also space out the orbits for n-body realism while maintaining the resonance. The greater the eccentricity of Laythe's orbit, the greater the tidal stretching on the planet as it moves through a changing gravity well. The forces are now much more dynamic and irregular which causes immense movement and friction. Energy is being traded between the moons and being dumped into Laythe in the form of this alternating eccentricity like a "Tidal generator" as the moons come into alignment once every Tylo orbit. Would this alone be enough to have liquid water? Honestly I think Laythe would just end up like a Volcanic hellscape in all likelihood. But perhaps it got lucky and found a perfect balance between boiling away from the heat and freezing from radiating that heat into space. Perhaps the fact that it's reasonably massive means the interior heat and relatively fast orbital period has given it a magnetic field and allowed it to keep the atmosphere, which in turn keeps the water. Without that extra mass the moon would look like Io. Now the only thing missing from the game is tonnes of volcanoes like Hawaii doting the land areas.

[@curious_ksp_]

I assumed a simple model, as this is not a rigorous calculation, and it was was never my intention to be rigorous, because this is not a scientific paper. Including the other moons would make the calculations take more time, more time than I have for a youtube video that does not pay me back the hours I put in. As the most obvious cause of tidal heating would be Jool, I decided to address it specifically. I am not going to do hours of calculations and modelling for now, maybe later when I have time. edit: spelling, grammar

[@Fugging771]

When n-body motion is implemented in ksp, the Jool system collapses. omg

[@thespacedinos4037]

oh epic another laythe vid also I think it could be tidal heating from the other moons of jool

[@curious_ksp_]

I think those effects would be minimal, as the masses of the other moons are several orders of magnitude smaller than Jool. It indeed does have an effect, but not in a major way like Jool I think.

[@louisgari4294]

Loved this 👍🏻

[@RAFMnBgaming]

welp, guess I'm not making my rocket out of zinc.

[@mr.anti-mation8373]

since laythe spins would that mean even with a E = 0 it would still have some squash and strech sinc it's not even all the way throug?

[@curious_ksp_]

It is tidally locked, so it always points the same way towards Jool, so the deformation will not change sadly.

[@petersmythe6462]

Laythe's tropopause temperature, at an altitude of 7 km, is 200 Kelvin. Its surface is 275 Kelvin. 200 K is still elevated way above what you'd expect 5 KU away from Kerbol, which is like 130 Kelvin, but at least a portion of Laythe's high surface temperature could be due to a strong greenhouse effect.

[@bengoodwin2141]

A suitably large amount of volcanic activity (which is basically just heat generated by radioactive decay with a bunch of steps in between) could absolutely heat the water enough to keep it liquid, if the heat could spread quickly enough. You could probably calculate that by figuring out the thickness of the water and core layers, how much convection there would be, and how much radioactive decay would be needed to heat up the core (and spread that heat to the surface)

[@Lantalia]

Give it some slack, it's average density is around 2.5 times that of osmium, so there is a lot of room for exotic reactions going on in it's core

[@totallynoteverything1.]

a solution would be adding ice around the shores of Laythe's islands

[@VictorDeVandenesse]

Very nice and educationnal videos, thank you sir!

[@mightyben4310]

Laythe is like Europa, Jools radioactivity keeps laythe warm

[@curious_ksp_]

I don't think it is as strong as something like tidal heating, but I can make a video in the future maybe.

[@lb2791]

I think Europa mainly has liquid water because of tidal heating. That's why the outermost layer is frozen but underneath it's liquid.

[@mightyben4310]

@@lb2791 escusa me @L B but Laythe has an Open Air ocean and Europa has everything UNDERNEATH THE ICE! And you need water to be covered for tidal heating.

[@mightyben4310]

@@curious_ksp_ I wasn’t asking that thank you

[@curious_ksp_]

@@mightyben4310 and i wasn't answering, I just disagree :)

[@anekdoche7055]

ok ok ok, BUT could it be that the tidal forces with the other moons of joul creat enough energy to sustain the water? nice video.

[@curious_ksp_]

Certainly could, i just assumed a simplified model for now, otherwise it would take much more time to calculate. And it would not be worth it, as we already overestimated the effects by multiple orders of magnitude. So maybe some more in depth stuff in the future, but that would basically turn into a scientific paper, and this is youtube lol

[@VorynDagoth]

According to experiments you can do in game the oceans also have a high salt content which lowers the freezing point

[@Rejinod]

the anger of the kraken heats up Laythe

[@caimanaraujo479]

What if laythe is a young moon that has just begun cooling down from its birth?

[@NoSTs123]

I love Physics! You love Physics!° We both love Physics!

[@solecproductions]

screw it, jool rings would look cool so lets throw laythe into the rouche limit.

[@curious_ksp_]

Yeet

[@alexandergreen5292]

tidal forces from jool allow for laythe to have oceans as laythe is the closest moon to jool

[@deltainfinium869]

Wouldn't there be extra tidal heating due to the effects of Jools other moons?

[@johnathanegbert9277]

Yes, but it is negligible.

[@BanjoGate]

What about tidal forces from Tylo?

[@curious_ksp_]

Due to the fact that the masses of the other moons are several orders of magnitude smaller, these effects will be minimal.

[@RAFMnBgaming]

how much do you think radioactive heating (like what powers the earth's tectonics) would help?

[@curious_ksp_]

Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think radioactive heating is what powers plate tectnonics. Earths internal heat does power that, yes, but that heat is not provided by radioactive materials I believe. But in general some radioactive phenomenon could raise the temperature...

[@RAFMnBgaming]

@@curious_ksp_ True. Admittedly geology is not my strong point but I definitely remember reading something along the lines of it started out hot from the planet compressing but one of the leading theories behind the reason it's still hot despite a lot of energy going out into all that tectonics is because of radioactive materials that sunk to the core. That might not be anywhere near the scientific consensus anymore though.

[@classic9567]

What about vall? The 2nd moon? Id believe when it passes by it’d pull on laythe, and its really close by

[@curious_ksp_]

But Vall's mass is several orders of magnitude of smaller, so it sill contributes way less.

[@classic9567]

@@curious_ksp_ yeah i guess, but maybe its just enough

[@curious_ksp_]

@@classic9567 it could be the thing thay tips it over the edge for sure Edit: i have also been made aware of some research that discovered that moons contribute more than previously thought, so you are probably right actually

[@classic9567]

@@curious_ksp_ cool cool

[@endlesswick]

Laythe's crust contains large amounts of fissile material causing naturally occurring fission reactions.

[@curious_ksp_]

That would need an absurd amount, but maybe, i could try and calculate how much

[@candiman4243]

I do know that is one of the reasons the Earth still has a molten interior, so maybe in combination with some other things it would make sense

[@jamesball7381]

The elements that caused the differentiation of the terrestrial planets and their precursors were not fissile. They were short-lived mostly neutron rich and some proton rich radionuclides which either decayed by electron capture, or the release of an alpha particle. These nuclides were mostly formed in supernovae and neutron star mergers. Although some could have been formed in the winds of massive stars. The most prominent nuclide in the heating was 26Al. The left over insulated heat is the geothermal heat we harness. We can also use these nuclides as chronometers for events which occured in the early Solar System and even before.

[@The_Jebediah_Kerman]

They never taught this at astronaut school…

[@blacquejacqueshellaque6373]

It's not liquid water, it is liquid Oxygen.

[@UnoReversecard-ys8vl]

Could be lots of radioactive elements in the core that are decaying and heating it. Since the kerbals survive space radiation without effects they shouldn’t feel effects from radiation on laythe

[@entropybear5847]

How radioactive is Laythe?

[@anoniemw.222]

What about radiation? Could jool emmit a lot of radiation (like microwaves) wich heath laythe? This would also explain the lack of life on the surface and maybe the precence of it deep underwater

[@capapofa]

This guy has a ton of potiental

[@Bongdavid-g4y]

Maybe lay in. For the band, the result.

[@casualbird7671]

Can't you still get tidal heating without eccentricity due to planetary rotation?

[@curious_ksp_]

Yes you can. But laythe is tidally locked, so in this case that doesn't happen.

[@casualbird7671]

@@curious_ksp_ Oh it's tidally locked too? Nevermind then >v

[@kenwood_9474]

Why do you use a comma instead of a period? You said for example "Zero point zero zeo 4 eccentricity" but wrote 0,004 witch looks like just 4? minor thing but it kept throwing me off

[@curious_ksp_]

That is European notation. We use comma as decimal point.

[@kenwood_9474]

@@curious_ksp_ that's very interesting thanks! I didn't know that was a thing in Europe

[@JuxGD]

but if laythe rotates, wouldn't that count towards tidal heating?

[@curious_ksp_]

Yes normally it would, but laythe is tidally locked, always facing Jool the same way

[@JuxGD]

@@curious_ksp_ oh

[@ExcaliburAero]

Wouldn't there be tidal heating from the moon spinning as it orbits Jool? Great video.

[@curious_ksp_]

Yes, normally it would, but sadly Laythe is tidally locked. And thanks, I liked how this video turned out, so glad you liked it!

[@ExcaliburAero]

@@curious_ksp_ ohh I din't know it was tidally locked, that makes a lot more sense. Perhaps it is geothermally active, like other comments have stated? Huge respect to you for doing all those equations too haha

[@ThePixelated_kris]

Wait but doesnt titan have liquid on its surface it has ethane lakes and methane oceans (edit i do know water has different properties from ethane but still how did it get there if it orbits Saturn?) also laythe has a whale skeleton on it so it has to be water idk.

[@curious_ksp_]

I don't know how the methane on Titan got there,, but that is not relevant I think. About that skeleton: yes it has to be water and that is the whole reason I am doing this, how is it possible? Instead of going "it is water" and be done with it.

[@Blink-pi9cm]

does laythe's atmosphere contribute nothing to it having liquid water?

[@curious_ksp_]

It does, that is why I added that 1,2 factor (1:22)

[@404NameN0tFound]

Laythes atmosphere is mainly carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas.

[@LowerBudgetOppenheimer]

"Tidal eating" -captions

[@curious_ksp_]

lol

[@wolfie3657]

Where does volcanic activity come from? could it be the reason of heating of the planet?

[@QwerYT4819]

This guy is the reason why you should go to school.

[@gladdyhash9120]

I wonder if there's another civilization on laythe

[@darthhunter69]

What about salts? Maybe Laythe's oceans are very saturated with some type of salt

[@puppypalice]

I always thought the heat could come from jool

[@curious_ksp_]

Multiple people have suggested this, so I will probably do a follow up video in the future discussing this possibility

[@gamerisk09]

But in ksp 2 it has polar caps

[@ack7]

Yes, so that means that it’s probably only the combined effects of tidal and solar heating that can get the surface to high enough temperatures to keep water liquid.

[@philippey4918]

tidal forces still generate heat in an excentricity of 0 if the planet of moon isn't tidally locked

[@curious_ksp_]

true, but Laythe is tidally locked, so i just ignored it

[@philippey4918]

@@curious_ksp_ it's tidally locked?

[@moonwalkhi]

school: e=2.718 youtube:

[@javierfernandez9214]

Do you mean laith could have water in real live

[@Emperor_Xander]

I like how you use your own photo😂

[@anekdoche7055]

hey im metioned in the video, nice

[@charlie4935planes]

I always thought that it was due to hating of jool

[@curious_ksp_]

Might be, that is another thing I can explore in the future, but I don't think it is as influential as tidal heating would be.

[@RAFMnBgaming]

Jool be a real h8r.

[@eekee6034]

Scale it up to real scale and try calculating tidal heating again. I've heard it works out beautifully. If you stick with the current scale, you have to wonder how Kerbin exists: How did such a nice, comfortably habitable planet form around degenerate matter? It's too dense to be made of normal matter.

[@petterlarsson7257]

this is an exact copy of your previous video

[@kennycarter5682]

super duper salty water?? tho lets say the universe kerbal is in.. has different laws of physics and chemistry?

[@esspeetwentytwo]

don't forget geothermal activity

[@curious_ksp_]

Which would be caused by tidal heating in this case, so it is the same heat source

[@orions9612]

why comments

[@orions9612]

lag

[@sinterkaastosti988]

ik ruik kaas

[@curious_ksp_]

goed geroken, mede kaaskop

[@nonipplenate]

You're videos are so good like Holy Moly. Zoo Wee Mama, even!

[@IamGhede]

Thanks. I needed a nap.

[@Aiden_onroblox]

𝚃𝚒𝚍𝚊𝚕 𝚑𝚎𝚊𝚝

[@f.u.m.o.5669]

Jool tidal heat