William Buckley vs. Gore VIdal

O famoso debate entre Buckley e Gore Vidal, transmitido pela NBC, tratando das convenções políticas de 1968, no qual Vidal chama Buckely de crypto nazi, quando discutiam sobre a ação da polícia em relação aos protestos na conveção do Partido Democrata.
Vidal: "the only pro or crypto-Nazi here is yourself."
Buckley: "Now listen, you queer, you stop calling me a crypto-Nazi or I'll sock you in the goddamn face and you'll stay plastered."

[@torgman]

Buckley was also with the CIA, which meant that he knew 16 different ways to kill Vidal with that earpiece, if he so chosen. :D

[@lorax2013]

Amazing piece of history, thanks for posting. Even though the debate devolved into namecalling and threats, it is amazing to see how they both still seem so much more intelligent than the talking heads on TV today.

[@hex0016]

Owned nothing... Gore Vidal didn't have a leg to stand on, and resorted to calling Buckley a crypto-Nazi when presented with a winning argument. And he kept insisting on trying to shut Buckley up. Defender of free speech, Vidal is not.

[@torgman]

It must've pained him that his movement was taken over by the likes of Sean Hannity and Rush Limpbaugh.

[@itreeye]

Jelperman: I quote: "The domino theory was accurate. The ASEAN (Association of Southeast Asian Nations) countries, Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand stayed free of Communism because of the U.S. commitment to Vietnam. The Indonesians threw the Soviets out in 1966 because of America's commitment in Vietnam. Without that commitment, Communism would have swept all the way to the Malacca Straits that is south of Singapore and of great strategic importance to the free world."

[@GSW12345]

Vidal's grin when Buckley called him queer was priceless..

[@torgman]

Buckley also threatened to punch Vidal--Vidal coulda had him arrested for assault :P This thing didn't end here--they slandered each other in Esquire, then sued each other. Vidal ended up paying Buckley's attorney fees, which were more than his. IMHO, these were two intelligent men who were both out of line and should've known better. Sadly, political discourse only got worse after this and people with the intellectual caliber of these two no longer bother going on TV to improve it.

[@phdddude21]

Anyone reading replies to my comment above will see that so far no one has ventured a reasoned response to their disagreement. Buckley certainly did have a logical basis for his arguments. One key was the disinterested involvement in third world nations. This is a brilliant point.

[@RatatRatR]

Vidal didn't talk about "liking" the Viet Cong. He said a lot of people think a country has a right to organize itself in its own way without being attacked for it. It isn't such a radical concept, if you can get your mind outside of the U.S. propaganda system.

[@Jelperman]

The Viet Cong didn't organize any government. They were wiped out in 1968. The NVA did, but they didn't starve or slaughter millions.

[@Jelperman]

If the jackboot fits, wear it.

[@beast543210]

The comments on this video show clearly that Buckley has touched a raw nerve of ignorance. Watch the video Chomsky versus Buckley- where Buckley devastates Chomsky who is significantly more intelligent than Vidal. The concern I have now is that most people are not capable of understanding these arguments logically, nor articulating any argument of substance.

[@Rereversed]

Communism and Socialism are economic systems like Capitalism, whereas dictatorships and democracies are political systems. The fact that Communism and Socialism seem to be tied to dictatorship has more to do with the traditional means of Communism's implementation, namely the violent overthrow of the existing government by armed rebels. If democratically introduced, Communist and Socialist policies do not create dictatorships, as Finland, Norway, and Sweden can attest to.

[@Bamruff62]

Gore got Buckleys goat. Buckley lost his shit. Gore got Buckley confused.

[@Jelperman]

Since he owned Buckley in these debates, what does that make Buckley? Fourth rate? By the way, Vidal served served in the US Army in WW2 in the Aleutian Campaign, while Buckley sat home behind a desk.

[@itreeye]

FREEW0RLD2012: "...did you even HEAR what Buckley was saying?" Yes, he was saying that he understands the 'right to assembly' can supersede other's rights, or freedom, and that this needs to be considered as well. This sounds reasonable. What did you hear that was made him Nazi-esque - as you share in a later comment here?

[@Jelperman]

Buckley is the one who got owned.

[@YusefAsabiyah]

There are several videos on KZbin where Buckley is shown threatening to punch someone he disagrees with in the face. In this video, after issuing the threat, he leans towards Vidal,partially getting out of his seat, as if he is getting ready to really sock him. Big, tough cowboy. Tough talker, more like. Anyone comparing Vietnam to Iraq and drawing similarities, did you know even big tough cowboy WFB in his final analysis called Iraq a mistake and a quagmire? Even WFB learned something.

[@itreeye]

Jelperman: "...they didn't starve or slaughter millions." Our leaving, for 'PEACE!', allowed the deaths of many innocents. real people. "There were almost twice as many casualties in Southeast Asia (primarily Cambodia) the first two years after the fall of Saigon in 1975 then there were during the ten years the U.S. was involved in Vietnam. [1996 Information Please Almanac] "

[@RatatRatR]

"As usual, the liberal resorts to calling the conservative a nazi." cesarq641, you're clearly wrong. The moderator mentions the Nazis first, at 1:23. Then at 1:52, Buckley interrupts Vidal to compare the protestors (and, by extension, Vidal) to "pro-Nazis." At 2:09 -- the part you selectively mention -- Vidal just responds to what's already been said. Buckley then goes completely overboard. The rest of your comment was even worse.

[@mitkopi4a]

You know I just remembered one interview with the famous russian director(whom I'm sure you've never heard of) Nikita Mikhalkov while making "The Barber of Siberia", he litterally said: "while showing the scenario in the USA, I happened to realize that our old time Soviet censors, were little kids in comparison with their american counterpart, for e.g. they told me "you can not make a movie showing an american sergeant,who never heard about Mozart""

[@Jelperman]

Buckley got OWNED! First by Vidal and now by the Grim Reaper. He can now spend eternity doing circlejerks with Franco and Pinochet in hell.

[@ossiorn]

Buckley is a Knights of malta.He is also a member of the skull and bones society at Yale.

[@VelvetVellocet]

Crypto nazi - hmmmm that comment came from the fact that Vidal couldn't keep up with Buckley's linguistic assault.

[@wdednam]

I would put the emphasis on the 'National' rather than on 'Socialism' in Nazism - 'National Socialism', for the Nazis are infamous for their Genocidal Nationalistic tendencies. As I understand the conservative movement today, it's mostly Nationalistic, xenophobic: how the conservatives rave on about immigration! Conservatives are usually Nationalists, hence I find it fitting to compare them to Nazis in extreme cases.

[@LiterallyGod]

These accents confuse me. They sound British but they are hitting their R’s like americans.

[@17thknight]

No one believes that they will "come here" i've no idea where you could even conceive of such an argument. At the time, the theory was, and has proven correct, that Communism could spread throughout southeast Asia, thus lending political and strategic power to the USSR. It was wholly a correct view, as history has shown. What was mistaken in Vietnam wasn't the theory of the spread of communism and countering it, it was in not realizing this was not what was occurring in Nam, as it had in Korea

[@420gma]

This debate should be shown in classrooms !!

[@YusefAsabiyah]

If he would have decked either Vidal or Chomsky, he wouldn't have lived more than a year afterwards. You people will get your civil war eventually, but you aren't going to like it so much once you have the reality of it.

[@mitkopi4a]

Clearly you know better than me what I've experienced first hand. And you know better than me what I have read. It's a tragic irony that the country which stood for so long as the beacon of freedom is presently inhabited with "enlighten" individuals like yourself, who are are so arrogant in their self confidence and would not respect different points of view...

[@sysarchitect]

Yes that's much better :-) Well Reggie, that's your opinion and you're more than welcome to have it!

[@jonstar5237]

RIP, Gore Vidal. Brilliant then, brilliant long afterwards.

[@cant4get]

But the poor half naked hungry people were flying MIG 17s and MIG 21s. Guess they were weak and feeble after all.

[@itreeye]

Jelperman: "No, the communist countries were no threat to the US or the "free world" " You need to think clearly about this. Take current day for example. Why is does N Korea helps Iran with weapons tech? (I know, money, but that's not my point) Or why is Russia so often in league with China and Iran, or why was Chavez one of the only leaders in the world to publicly support the Iranian "elections"? Communism still is a global threat, as is all oppression of individuals. Love is all.

[@MEIZimm]

It's a somewhat outdated expression meaning "very drunk", as an easy Google search could have told you.

[@Rereversed]

@MrGrevy is it a riposte now?

[@runeguldberg]

Grevy Marxist analysis of ownership of MoP within capitalism The analysis of people's relationships with the means of production is one element that stands at the basis of Marxism Marx argued that, while in pre-capitalist societies it is clearly the labourer that uses the means of production to create product; in capitalism, whose nature as a mode of production is embodied in its drive to reproduce and increase capital, it is more realistic to say that the means of production uses the labourer.

[@Rereversed]

You are confusing Communism with Dictatorship. While most examples of communism today take place in Orwellian hell holes, that is not by definition what communism is.

[@mitkopi4a]

"were believed" but incorrectly, but it doesn't matter the question stays - why interfere? your soldiers were killed because they invaded foreign country period. I'll tell you about communism - I'm not kidding - I was born and raised in "communistic" country and trust me it has its advantages. it was no worse than the USA today. I'm limited by the character count to elaborate on that, but I had a happy childhood trust me and I seriously doubt my kids will be that happy and safe in America

[@blacknwhitesalright]

I'm pretty sure that Mr. Vidal was very sincere in calling Buckley a crypto-Nazi - and Mr. Vidal was right.

[@SamvedIyer]

No, he wasn't. Crypto-Nazi is a very serious charge to make. Buckley knew in 1969 that the term was already etiolated, insomuch as it was thrown left and right, but that did not make it any less reprehensible.

[@anthrocoon]

Ha, as for Vidal I liked his shampoo. No wait, that was Vidal Sassoon. Carry on :)

[@runeguldberg]

Means of production is owned by the few rich in finland, norway and Sweden.

[@EMPERORMIKI]

You need to watch Why We Fight ... its commentary by one of the people who actually made that war happen.

[@jammin1055]

Dittoheads are a complete waste of time and energy.

[@ossiorn]

Most Intellectuals and pundits lack any awareness of the media extensions wich they communicate through.

[@unfortunatebeam]

@davidavraham2008Communism and socialism only fail when attempting to implement them on a wide scale as the dominant form of government/economy. Dozens of countries the world over have more or less successfully integrated certain individual ideas derived from them into their democratic societies and capitalist economies. It's where you get the term "social democracy".

[@shaka222]

Gore Vidal was wayyy too intellectual for him LOL

[@SamvedIyer]

Actually, Buckley's essay on Esquire was an excoriation of Vidal's intellectual inconsistencies. Vidal was right about the metamorphosis of the U.S. into an Empire, and also about Vietnam, but Buckley was by no means a plebe. He was as formidable as Vidal.

[@itreeye]

Jelperman: I just realized you might not get my point #2, but if you ARE the Left, than you ARE responsible for the Left's failures. Yet I am a person, loved by God as inexorably unique, and therefore responsible for *only* what I personally have done right or wrong. (eg. I don't owe blacks money for slavery) I believe you are a person, too; but instead of calling you disgusting names I used a bit of irony to try and make this point. Do you understand, yet?

[@runeguldberg]

@MrGrevy Do i have to explain for you what the term "means of production" means. In socialist litterature it is a term used when telling if the factories is owned by the workers or the capitalist. If terms and things around seems to continue to be bizarr, the you should see the doctor.

[@Rereversed]

@MrGrevy Good riposte bro

[@24linkinparkfan88]

wtf does stay plastered mean? lol

[@purphanz]

@davidavraham2008 its really just an existenial dilemma of modernity, because socialism involves moral judgment of everyone involved, and not many are ready for that commitment

[@420gma]

yes a true American icon !!!

[@perobusmaximus]

Scissors game. Vidal team gave ukraine to the bolshois (w wilson), and left a cold war to be fought. they were even saying urss was democratic. How much was payed for kiev?

[@Grokstar35]

HA HA Gore outlives Buckley! Vidal rules!

[@InternetSavage]

I think you may be.

[@sysarchitect]

Try not to mix Intellect with Left-Right politics! a person is not smarter because he's on the same side of the political spectrum as you! Sheesh...

[@tmgore64]

not an American....ok...tnat's a ojay. Right?

[@feeneythefiend]

@davidavraham2008.... go over to germany and see how crippled socialism is. they seem fine to me.

[@torgman]

Buckley .5, Vidal .5

[@ihatefrys]

Your comment didnt even opine on how the war was fought. I agree, the way liberal Johnson went about getting us into Vietnam was totally wrong. Its obvious your a liberal, you dont see the conotation of an attack on America by hanging a forune flag? Especially with a nation we are at war with is obsurd. And your "pity" by hanging a Vietcong flag talk makes it very obvious whether you believe your a liberal or not. BTW, nobody here is stopping you from stating your opinion.

[@CARDUELIS999]

@bertinotti You have no idea why America got rich, do you? It wasn't through regulation. Don't talk to me about working hard. I work 70 hours a week. I work with hands and my head. Go regulate yourself and wise up.

[@Mrdavid839]

Buckley is badass!

[@Mazdak1]

VC =\= NVA bro

[@ahbevegede]

CLASSIC lol

[@Samhain35]

The 2nd worst person named 'Gore'.