Winchester Defender 9mm VS .45 ACP in Long Slides

Testing out the Winchester Defender (PDX1) in 9mm+P and .45 ACP. Using a 5.3" Glock 41 for the .45 ACP and a 5.0" S&W M&P 9 for the 9mm. The 9mm is a 124 gr+P JHP and the .45 ACP is a 230 gr JHP. Testing velocity and accuracy as well as testing ballistics through my bologna/MDF and into 10% Clear Ballistics gel. Always appreciative of any channel help :) www.patreon.co...

[@somebloke13]

F.I.R.S.T!

[@jasonvoorhees2701]

Please tell me how much different your life is now ?

[@thepatriot4355]

@@jasonvoorhees2701 I didn't see anything where Bloke asked you anything in the first place

[@jasonvoorhees2701]

I wasnt aware you were Blokes cheerleader... but I see your pom poms now ..

[@thepatriot4355]

@@jasonvoorhees2701 maybe you should mind your own business

[@jasonvoorhees2701]

@Larry noblagennie maybe you shouldn't be so easily offended...

[@dk1480]

.666 diameter expansion, this sure is *beast* of a round!

[@electrochubb]

Great test Sam, I believe you're getting better at this. I'm now a fan of your channel bc: 1. Attn to detail. 2. Consistency of testing protocol. 3. Using your own unique method of determining penetration....using various materials. 4. Mostly CC guns that many people carry. 5. Your shooting ability is an added bonus.!

[@GunSam]

Thank you.

[@joshuagibson2520]

Amen to this. Same here. Couldn't agree more.

[@thepatriot4355]

No it's not a great test a great test would have been using 9mm 185gr or 147gr Ammo not 124gr

[@joshuagibson2520]

@@thepatriot4355 nah. It's a good test.

[@joshuagibson2520]

@@thepatriot4355 a great sentence has punctuation, btw.

[@Ah.M.Sengul]

Another great video as usual , my compliments , speaking frankly you are the only real deal in KZbin concerning assessing handguns/rounds performances in practical real life appliances , marketing free without being subjectively influenced , period.

[@GunSam]

Thanks!

[@yellowboxster06]

Impressive. Ever since Vietnam I've been a 1911 45ACP fan for over 50 years now but clearly the 45 ACP round is not the only solution for defensive needs. The Winchester 9mm Defender round really works well in my Beretta 92G Vertec. And, your long range shooting from a training perspective is a practical idea. You never know when a real world scenario may make you the only armed defended during an active shooter situation. Getting close may not be an option. No matter how remote this possibility you need a lot of shooter discipline to hit a target that size at 50 yards. As I recall the military specification for the NATO 9mm 124 gr FMJ round was that it had to perform out to 55 yards. So practicing at the near limit is not a bad thing. Nice shooting.

[@tiltedflip4491]

Wow, That 9mm did a number on the ballistic bologna pack (giggles).

[@jamesechevarria5428]

Idk y but I can watch these every day

[@GunSam]

Thanks lol

[@danoneill2846]

I look at some of the old ones when I want info on a type of ammo or a gun / Cal. Even the no testing ones .

[@shaneiveson517]

You just keep them coming all my favorites

[@Stoney_AKA_James]

NOT to get into the 45ACP vs 9mm argument... If neither bullet expands, the .4515" diameter causes more tissue damage vs .355", granted only by thousands of an inch. As a member of our SRT unit, we carry 45ACP Glocks, and depending on the job, we typically carry a G21 or a G41 or a G30S. In the G21 and G41, we use Federal Hydra-Shok +P 230gr JHP (our ballistic gell tests have shown .73" expansion with 17 inch penetration). For concealed carry, I use my G30S, with the lower velocity Federal Hydra-Shok 230gr JHP ammo.

[@DanTheWolfman]

Check my 9mm vs. 45 series...62% more TC ball 1.5-2.11 x best HP to best HPs

[@kevinrichardson8859]

There is no federal hydra shok 230 grain +p...only a 185 grain +p hydra shok

[@kevinrichardson8859]

Federal does NOT make a 230 grain +p hydra shok! They make a 230 grain +p hst however

[@paulstan9828]

Thanks for putting up another video so quickly. 😁👍 Nice group with the Glock. I was surprised the 45 didn’t expand.

[@davecain2671]

Gun Sam, as far as I’m concerned you have the best gun channel on U-Tube, I always look forward to your videos, I always get an education from you, thank You Gun Sam. Always Very Interesting content. Don’t change a thing and keep it up. Please make more videos and don’t ever stop.

[@GunSam]

Thanks!

[@grif5447]

Just function tested these 9mm's in my "Foland" Special, the round has enough power to cycle with the comp and the recoil is very well mitigated, actually feels more like a .45 with that push vs. snap. Figure slightly less expansion/slightly more penetration but I'm happy to know it'll perform on the other end if ever needed.

[@brittlanders351]

That’s what I got. Tested the 45 pdx1 out of my Glock 30. No expansion. I love the 38 pdx1! That 9mm looks great

[@jmurphy68463]

I could have told you those Winchester Defender rounds for the .45 are terrible, I've never had, or known them to, expand. The only thing I buy anymore for .45 is HST, Gold Dot or Winchester White Box. They're the only ones I truly trust to expand.

[@GunSam]

One of these days I will test HST in .45 ACP. I have had this .45 for 3 years and haven't done it yet. Shame on me.

[@sleeper.simulant7327]

Ironically those are the 3 I trust lol. 180 grain for those 3. I also got the federal classic pistol 155 grain for my .40, I haven’t shot them yet though, and the hornady critical defense 165’s I haven’t tested yet. May have to give them a shot this weekend.

[@jmurphy68463]

@@_JimS Feeding issues, terrible penetration (8 to 10 inches) and partial to no expansion. However, some did expand the way they're supposed to but too few and far between.

[@jmurphy68463]

@@_JimS Very welcome

[@SneakyShika]

Great so i got some fancy expensive ball ammo basically? I carry a 1911 and use fmj since its all i have bought and had. (Gun stayed home while i traveled for work). I saw this ammo. Only option so i got it. I shot 2 test mags for function. 1 jam on the 3rd or 4th round for both mags.

[@YellowHammer26]

Really good 9mm round! 👍👍

[@timrobinson6573]

I just picked up a box of the Winchester Defender in 45 ACP and some of the rounds have what look like specs of hard black glue on the casing and one of the casings is split in an L-shape from the case mouth down about 1/8 of an inch.

[@GunSam]

That's really weird. I bet the glue looking stuff is just sealant, which is a good thing, but the splitting is no good. On the plus side, you could store those rounds for decades as the sealant prevents moisture getting in.

[@timblack131]

Boy am I glad I didn't get these in .45, I saw them on a site I usually order from but they had them marked up too much for me to stick em' in my cart. This video makes me feel better on passing them up. Thanks for testing and saving me some dough Sam! 👍

[@guardianminifarm8005]

Good to know. Very good results on 9mm. Very disappointing results with 45. I had much higher expectations. Thank you.

[@biggunshandguns3687]

WOW that was very disappointing in 45. I sure would like to know what happened to Winchester. Seems like the last good to was the black talon. Well I'm glad you tested them so I didn't waste my time looking for them. Thanks for another cool video and for doing some 45 testing. Love your videos and how you don't ramble about stuff

[@GunSam]

Thanks. The Silvertip or USA are about the only ammo that can be decent in the right caliber.

[@ryancawdor8083]

@@GunSam Agree. I was favorably impressed by the WWB 125 grn hollowpoint 357 Sig loading.

[@frankhinkle5772]

Dude, I just watched another channel; guy doing exactly what you are doing. You are so much better at it and do far better tests. We are all spoiled here watching you.

[@GunSam]

Thanks!

[@joshuagibson2520]

Glad to see you shoot at 50. Because it is practical. Everyone needs to shoot at all distances if they have the chance. I think half the folks who say it isn't practical have probably never tried.

[@davidcunningham6856]

Ahh, I see now you have done a review on the ARX .357, sweet! I'm gonna go watch that now.😃

[@GOTCHAPARK]

WOW , Who would have thought that the 45 would not preform as well as the 9 using this ammo ? Just goes to show that you don't know what ya got until you actually test it out yourself ! Sucks to say but you can not depend on the advertising on the box ...... Thanks for taking the time to make these videos and keep on Trucking .

[@GunSam]

Yeah, real world scenario for me, couldn't trust it.

[@jamesechevarria5428]

These 9mm makes me respect the round up there w 357 n 40 cal... like that underwood plus p 158 swchp .38 plus p

[@cpprcrk1833]

Real men eat Ballistic Bologna sandwiches for lunch ! 😋

[@mcburcke]

Cool test! I use that 9mm load for EDC purposes, and feel very safe using it. I get the 1300fps also out of a Hi-Power. Nice round, as far as I can tell.

[@alecswann7234]

Paul Harrell notes he has not seen expansion from any of the 45 ACP rounds he's tested even in a 5 inch barrel, which is why he uses a .38 Super 1911 for deer hunting. This I think is the weakness of the .45 ACP -- its just not possible to get enough velocity (around ~1,000 fps I think) to get sufficient reliable expansion. Its an effective round, but it has its limitations and a baseball like trajectory at distance is one of them. Its why the .357 was the great rival particularly in the West where shooting in/around cars, at a distance, particularly for Highway Patrolmen required a flatter trajectory. Of course, the great appeal of the 10mm is that you get close to .45 ACP bullet weights (around 180-220) with velocity around .357 magnum. Anyway great video, I appreciate the accuracy at distance as it can show the full all-around potential of the round.

[@onpsxmember]

Someone had enough of doofus "The target is not that far away" posts, so now we see the target in the distance. I'm glad you do more of those tests after the Ranger T didn't deform at all, similar to .45s Defender here. I wonder at which velocity they'd still open trying different 9mm barrel lengths.

[@GunSam]

Yeah, I got that idea exactly from those dumb comments, but after I tried it I realized it looked cool too.

[@eddiearchuleta615]

That 124+p is the hottest factory 124+p there is almost 357 sig low end energy I like it!

[@elijahbrooks8589]

My first rounds were true black talons in.45. Worked well for Coyote

[@thatoneguy454c]

Modern 9mm at modern pressure is a fantastic choice for sellf defense. The velocity is high enough to get reliable expansion with most hollow points and the energy is fantastic. 450+ ft lbs is plenty of energy for self defense, and if it opens up to over .60 then it is going to do a good job at lowering blood pressure.

[@joshuagibson2520]

Well holy shit. I didn't realize it was Friday. Hell yeah.

[@phileasler5401]

That’s one of the reasons I own 3 9mm revolvers, a Taurus and Ruger 2 inche, and a Smith 5 inch 7 shot

[@erolkavlakverizon6112]

I'll still carry my 45.

[@willo7734]

I’ve had great results with my RIA 1911. I think you have to find an ammo that will push it over that expansion velocity.

[@ryancawdor8083]

So will I. a number of rounds fired in VietNam from 69 thru 72. With properly placed rounds the 45 Auto put them out of action quicker on average. I had to alternate between a Browning Hi Power so I saw the difference first hand.

[@828enigma6]

When you can find it, I'd like to see the Winchester Hex Defend in 9, 40, and 45. This is the one that has the hexagonal vented red plastic insert inserted in what appears to be a large hollow point. The 9 is out now, haven't seen 40 or 45 yet. If all you can find is 9mm, please test with 3, 4, and 5" barrel lengths. Thanks.

[@nickfederico]

When these bullets fail to expand going through denim, i'd like to see you shoot another into the gel without denim. I'd be curious as to whether it's the denim or velocity that's causing the failure.

[@sogk12]

Nowadays, with what I have seen with my own eyes and by my own testing, fail to expand is more related to bullet design than velocities achieved. Anyway, sometimes the so called "old tech" cup and core works just fine but the "new and improved" stuff not so much.

[@texasbeast239]

@@sogk12 But Sam's tests showed the Win Defender expanded nicely in 9mm, .357Mag, and 10mm, so the tech is fine. Possibly thick jacket wall in the nose, or hardened lead alloy core. But there definitely seems to be a velocity threshold for it, and slow-and-low .45 just can't cross it.

[@sogk12]

@@texasbeast239 I disagree. Win defender tech is not fine. If they offer win defender in, let's say, 9mm, 40sw, and 45acp, it SHOULD work as expected with all of them, not only some. On the other hand, let's see Fed HST, CCI Gold Dot, Fed Punch, etc.? They all expands reliably in 45 acp. These are just examples that today's technology trumps the old "velocity threshold" related to jhp's expansion. Actually, that world of "velocity is key" to get expansion reliably is long gone.

[@eddiearchuleta615]

What I’ve seen is these rounds need 1200+ FPS to reliably expand the 9mm 124+p and the 180 10mm are outstanding performers

[@rossgreenzweig]

That's a really good 9mm round! Any chance Sam you could start doing 40cal ammo test? I'd love to see the comparison to other calibers...another awesome video ad always, thank you!!

[@GunSam]

I been planning on it, but I want specific firearms to do it in which I sometimes have trouble finding.

[@danoneill2846]

The Hollow point on the 45 looks larger than some of the Winchester H Ps that have failed to expand .

[@chaysehiser]

Kind of surprised with the 45 ACP result, the 225 grain 45 colt has fantastic expansion even as low as 800fps

[@bjs301]

I bet that .45 would have done great in +P. I've seen enough ballistics tests (including on your channel) to realize that slow speeds - due either to low pressure or short barrels - are not consistent with reliable expansion in just about any handgun caliber. It's the main reason I bought a P365XL rather than the shorter P365.

[@troy9477]

Interesting. The 9mm did very well, but the 45 dis poorly. I thought all the top line manufacturers had figured out how to make bullets expand at 900 fps. Plenty of 38's do it at 850 fps or less. A cpl yrs ago i saw a test of the PDX-1 in 45 colt (probably 7 or 8 yrs old now), and it did well. Similar velocity, possibly just a few fps faster- 225 gr i think. Just goes to show that it is wise to test ammo. Nice work. That 5" M&P 9 seems like a good way to go.

[@apuzyr]

A few misses with the 45 equates to the old adage “A bad day at the range is better than a good day at work.” 😉

[@matthewanderson9912]

That 9mm version of this is no joke. Wow. Maybe a little questionable at some distance because I’ve seen you not miss with that Smith but man up close and personal that is impressive for a 9mm. I’d like to see this stuff in 357 Magnum and see if Winchester has put as much effort into that cartridge. They obviously did not in the 45 auto.

[@oldschoolcop8568]

Late to the show but glad I made it. 😁

[@GunSam]

Thanks for watching!

[@jasonkeating9958]

With crap performing rounds like that 45 it would be really interesting to see a wad cutter round fired after for comparison as they are similar in profile, Maybe keep some wad cutters with the fattest profile possible around for future failing ammo.

[@TheJurgisRud]

Sam, can I suggest putting some of the 38 special 200 grain "super police" rounds into that ballistic gel? I would love to see it.

[@GunSam]

I would but i'd have to do a lot to make them again, powder, primer etc is hard to find for what I used before.

[@stephenbrown6763]

I'd like to see a comparison between. 45 Long Colt and. 45ACP. Preferably in a Ruger Blackhawk Convertible. But if you don't have one ain't gonna happen. Good video.

[@eddiearchuleta615]

The projectiles are a little tougher than the gold dot as they have a thick copper jacket welded to the lead vs gold dot has a thin copper plating

[@talon2pro]

Do they make a +P .45 Defender Winchester? That might have been a closer comparison. Just a thought. Keep up the great work.

[@GunSam]

Not that I can see on Winchester's website. I never saw it 5 years ago when I carried it either.

[@johnmatthes8608]

Good video. Couple things though sir: why you calling that bologna pack 7 inches when it's 3 at most? And 45s suck with expansion due to its piss poor velocity. My 2 pennies.

[@danoneill2846]

Ballistic Pack Attack !!

[@danoneill2846]

Some may say .. I have never been attacked by lunch meat > Sam " I have "

[@GunSam]

Out for justice, pork shop scene. Hit a guy on the head with a long sausage.

[@dangerman007]

Disappointing in the .45. I think the new jackets on these round must be too thick....

[@richardcolligon4277]

Great video! I'd like to see more testing with the 9mm. In the past couple of month's I've seen 3 9mm round's with over 400 ftlbs of energy, but this was the highest by far. I think it has potential to be a good round if you can figure out what will make it expand otherwise it's not worth it. Remember 97% of civilian self defense scenarios are 3 shots in 3 seconds at 3 yards. I'd like to see you replicate that if it's not dangerous. The next 9mm round with over 400 ftlbs of energy was a new round by federal, it might make for a good comparison. I've never been a 9mm fanboy but if one turns out to be good I might have to buy a 9mm revolver. Also the SIG M17 has 395 ftlbs of energy and the round nose has the same ballistics.

[@GunSam]

Thanks. Pretty much all the ammo tests I have done in this M&P pistol are over 400 ft lbs, a couple over 500 ft lbs.

[@danoneill2846]

I put this link in a different video , this may be the better place . I don't own this ammo & never had any time on it . JUST FYI see the WINNER >> kzbin.info/www/bejne/rpSYn5KAqL5ml9k

[@moldyburgers8742]

Sorry I can’t get over +p versus non +p to me that’s not fair! I have some pdx1 defender 45 acp 230gr +p if you need some.

[@GunSam]

The 9mm Defender IS 124+P and the .45 Defender is 230 gr standard pressure, period. I can't make Winchester make it different to suit you.

[@kevinrichardson8859]

They don't make a pdx1 45acp +p

[@moldyburgers8742]

@@kevinrichardson8859 ever heard of ranger T ? Ever took a close look at the two? Do you even know marketing ?

[@kevinrichardson8859]

Yes I have looked closely at the 2...AND know marketing quite well...the pdx1 is a BONDED bullet! The ranger ts aren't!

[@kevinrichardson8859]

Ranger ts...and ranger bonded are two different bullets

[@Wootangtw]

Thanks buddy…

[@jimreed6875]

I was rather disappointed in the .45's performance. You might as well have been using hardball. The 9mm did great.

[@GunSam]

There's a lot of debate about non expanding HP's VS FMJ. To me, I feel like a HP will still provide more resistance to passing through than FMJ. I would almost guarantee FMJ would penetrate significantly further.

[@nelsonr1467]

That's because 45 is dookie

[@Peeter8]

230 grains seems heavy for a weak load. 185 grains is where it's at.

[@jasonvoorhees2701]

Found this in .40 at my FFL its 180 grain.. I almost picked it up but I prefer 165 grain

[@jamespatterson6783]

+P 9mm but no +P for the 45 ?

[@s.thompson9]

Can you please do an FBI spec gel test of underwood xtreme defender in .32 acp? Nobody has done a test that I can find…

[@GunSam]

Maybe if I get the firearm that will shoot it correctly.

[@marco529]

I use the Defender ammo in my Glock 43. Snappy in the smaller package but effective.

[@Sambo169]

These rounds is what I carry in my G17. Sometimes I carry the pdx1 defender in my 45! That's good penetration for the 45! That would work good on rodent animals!

[@jayrichardson5811]

9MM all day long over the 45 acp

[@davidcunningham6856]

Man, .45, wow! I am going too add a .45 into my collection before a .40 based on hours of reviews. I am impressed with the lower recoil but big level of "dropping" power. I found some new defense ammo that I'd never seen before, would love to see a review on it by you. It's ARX INCEPTOR 9mm with a copper & polymer blended bullet. Only 65 GR but, 1,650 FPS! Specially designed bullet for cutting through barriers with max penetration. Have you seen this ammo Sam?

[@Tom-cp6yj]

there's no good reason for that .45 not to expand from a full size pistol!!

[@philipfreeman72]

45 likes 185 - 200 gr slugs.

[@paulscountry456]

Hmm,that is one hot 40 Sw energy 9mm...lol.

[@chrisgabbert658]

It’s bad when you pay good money for a HP and it doesn’t expand acting like a Fmj. Oh the people that say you can’t shoot that distance or shouldn’t there just 🤬 cause they can’t shoot or blind 🤷‍♂️.

[@BlueberryStinkFinger62]

Once I heard he's using 124 gr for the 9mm I shut the video off just another BS Test

[@thepatriot4355]

Indeed this guy is a joke 124gr? seriously the test needed to be done with heavier 9mm rounds

[@jayrichardson5811]

I carry the Seismic 185gr 9MM rounds

[@professorpewpuew]

Okay new saga. 45 is still superior to 9mm.

[@davids5956]

Ha! Boomer rounds. Nice!

[@harrytuttle1446]

Boomer rounds? LOL!

[@GunSam]

Oh yeah.

[@ryancawdor8083]

@@GunSam Oh don't start that ARFTard Boomer crap... :)

[@nelsonr1467]

45 is dookie

[@ryancawdor8083]

No, THAT 45 bullet is unimpressive. Look at the HST in 45 and you will be impressed.

[@rob.3575]

Nonsense,total and complete nonsense.This ammo simply blows in .45.

[@nelsonr1467]

@@rob.3575 that's why it's called 45 AARP. It's an outdated round.

[@ryancawdor8083]

@@nelsonr1467 No, it isn't. The 9mm predates the 45 Auto. So by your nonsensical logic it also is outdated.

[@nelsonr1467]

@@ryancawdor8083 okay boomer

[@joemorganeatmyshortschannel]

love long slides