Hold Downs Clamps for my Vise - Milling Machine

[@machinists-shortcuts]

The bolt should always be closer to the vice than it is to the heel of the clamp. This setup puts far more pressure on the heel of the clamp than the vice. I like to make the heel of the clamp fit into the width of the tee slot and rest on the base of the tee slot. This prevents marking of the bed and stops the clamp from swivelling when the vice is being moved back and forth.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Yeah... I thought about the bolt position after I made it.... I could mill the slot and move it a bit closer to the vise but I should have made the clamp slightly longer. I did not think about the heel of the clamp going down in the Tee slot. That's a good idea although rotating isn't an issue.

[@machinists-shortcuts]

@@WinkysWorkshop Good idea to make the clamps longer, perhaps a 1/3 - 2/3 split for the hole position. It's crucial that the heel end is slightly higher than the vice step to concentrate the pressure on the toe end of the clamp. A larger footprint on the heel pads would also help. The current ones have the clamping pressure concentrated on two small areas about 1/4" x 5/16" either side of the tee slot which could mark the bed. Preventing the rotation would allow you to push and pull the vice without having to hold the clamps square.

[@daveticehurst4191]

Mark, as a suggestion for using coolant with the new vice, I bent up a sheet metal tray that fits under the vice. A lip all round and a drain off tube. Modern sheet metal is very accurate for thickness and flatness. Well worth giving it a thought. I would also strongly reccomend 4 clamps with that type of vice as you are only grippig on a short width and it looks to me not to have been machned very well if at all. Regards from Australia.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

In hindsight I should have made the clamps longer. The mechanical advantage isn't the best so i think a second set of clamps would be good. I was thinking about machining the first 3/8" inch of the lower part of the vise to accommodate some sheet metal with some thin rubber to seal to the vise. I'm sure that would provoke a few comments. Kind of like when I machined the jaws of my lathe chuck to hold washers. I've used that little ledge on the jaws so many times... it's super handy. Of course I could shim the entire vice with the same sheet metal. I have a few pieces of aluminum printing plate let over from my job that would work very well.... .014" if I remember right.

[@robertginther9248]

#1 use a reverse boring bar. #2 drill & install a close fit pin from the upper flange into the head. This prevents it from "unwinding" when spun in reverse. #3 spot weld three places on the seam of the adapter & the boring head. This solves the problem permanently.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I think I'll pin it.

[@orangetruckman]

@@WinkysWorkshop -wells index can regrind the spindle do make it an R8 style.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

@@orangetruckman Aside from the boring bar and drill chuck I don't have any problem with the B&S and I have both. Also... the B&S collets were cheap... $120 for a full set...I have maybe $200 into the boring head ands moris adapter for the drill chuck. Wells Index would charge a LOT more to make it R8.

[@orangetruckman]

I’ve read on several forums that Wells/ Index can regrind the spindle to an R8 style. It’s not free, but makes life way better I’m sure. I again have read that they’re a decent company to deal with. I did a bit of research into wells/Index as I want to buy one of their mills, but things haven’t worked out yet. One day I will get a mill. Can’t wait for the next video.

[@cyclebuster]

$750

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Thanks, yeah I know about the regrind but I now have all the tooling I need and a full set of B&S collets. I think they actually hold better than R8 but admittedly they are harder to get out. With the new draw bar they seem to be easy to remove however.

[@AWDJRforYouTube]

Hey Mark what happened with the carbide EM may have been running too slow , also when milling in a slot there is no place the chips can go and they bound up and grabbed the hard fragile carbide flutes. A HSS is much more tougher and will power thru, but still can break if dull. Best to hold an air nozzle and blow the chips away while milling and this won't happen. Project turned out great!

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I agree with you on all fronts! Thanks

[@Farm_fab]

Mark, the letters HHIP mean H&H Industrial products. I just bought a Yama HHT 8" independent 4 jaw vise at the scrap yard. Its a bit rusty, but I'll soak it in some rust removing solution, clean it up and relube it and use it for a welding positioner. I wish it was a scroll chuck, but I'll make do. The price was good, so if something is damaged beyond reasonable repairs, I'll not loose much.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Yeah... I knew what it stood for but drew a blank in the video. Good find on the chuck!

[@AmateurRedneckWorkshop]

Very nice hold downs Winky. I wish I had some amount of money for each end mill I have broken. I need a new set of HSS end mills. Maybe this month. Thanks for the video keep on keeping on.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Yeah it really surprised me. Maybe I was pushing it too hard but I think the vice was part of the problem

[@AmateurRedneckWorkshop]

@@WinkysWorkshop most of the broken end mills have been because I was not clamped down tight enough.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

@@AmateurRedneckWorkshop yeah.. kind of like a wimpy vice

[@RAYAR54]

Hi Mark, nice vise. I expect you're going to make another set of clamps and the first set will be used as secondary clamps. Nice to see that mill in use.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

That was not the original plan but it's probably a good idea.

[@billjulian9496]

Those clamps came out very nice. I use a #9 B&S Weldon shank with a Criterion boring head. There is a flat on the 5/8" shank that the large setscrew on the Weldon shank holds thus keeping it from moving in either rotational direction

[@WinkysWorkshop]

OH... Good idea! I'll mill a flat and install a big set screw. THANKS

[@jackdawg4579]

I like that setup, my vice, the mounting holes are such that is definitely reduced the Y travel available on the mill for anything held in the vice.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Yeah... at least I have a choice where to compromise. Ha

[@ThomasSanders-ew2lu]

Get an a!aluminum cookie sheet with a lip around it, drill it for your hold down bolt hole spacing. Bend up the front left corner a little and bend Down the Dr rear corner a little. Install a tube to recirculation the coolant here. That should catch almost all of the coolant that isn't slung past the pan.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I was thinking about sheet metal deflectors that let the coolant run into the tee slots but I like the pan idea. Thanks!

[@terrycannon570]

Great job on the clamps. I broke a 3/8 carbide end mill this week. Usually what happens is the work moves while milling either in the vice or like you said not having all axis locked. Carbide seems to like higher rpm than HSS. It makes me grind my teeth for a day or so every time I break a carbide end mill because of replacement cost. All my carbide end mills were bought from a place that was selling in bulk quantity 2 lbs. for $75. Some of those end mills are worth more than that each. The only thing i found wrong with them is they are un-marked sizes. I'm not likely to find a deal like that again. They were Made in the USA.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I need to speed things up i think... and the new vise will help too.

[@hogan6216]

I like a Noga air mister.Flood coolant makes a big mess not to mention it stinks like crap.Also your tools will rust up as well.The cutting fluid i use is made by Steelmax .Water soluble Fully rust inhibited Made in the U.S.I also use CRC SP-350 that will prevent any rust at all.The noga mister has a mag base so you can move from one machine to another.Noga is top quality product.The Steelmax has a nice smell to it....The Noga you can adjust the volume of fluid you need as well.What you do in your shop you dont need flood coolant...

[@WinkysWorkshop]

You are probably right... although I had some rust using cool mist and it seemed like there was a lot of over spray when I used enough to cool. I didn't like the idea of breathing it.

[@kimber1958]

very nice thank you for sharing your time good Day Kimber

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Thanks and you're welcome!

[@larryschweitzer4904]

I'm late to this party, but about Right or Left boring bars: I've Made several bars that can be used for deep holes or long sweeps. Cheap & easily made. 3/4" bar of steel. Drill & tap in the end for a set screw. Use a high speed steel piece or a broken carbide drill bit as the cutting tool. Sharpen with a diamond wheel or silicone carbide. Drill a matching hole near the end of the bar, clamp with the set screw. Depending on which way you position the tool it can be a right or left bar. Using it in the horizontal hole of the boring head allows sweeping the entire surface with in one pass giving a very nice looking finish. The catch! If you mill head is even a slight amount out of tram you will produce a cupped surface. One big cup as opposed to a series of small ones.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Yeah, that would work well. I modified a boring bar with a triangle insert. I just ground off the opposite side so it can be used either way.

[@johnbarnwell400]

Nice job on the clamps ! Thanks for the info on the hhip vice .. I have not seen one of those .

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I like the vice but the lack of coolant gutter, not so much.

[@moosesmachinery]

I would make an insert tool boring bar to run forward. I have done the same for my boring bars. You also get the advantage of higher speeds than an HSS bar and dont have to deal with hand sharpening a brazed carbide tool. Those vices are called CNC vises since they can be held sideways and also ganged more easily than a flanged vise, like the old bridgeport vises.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I agree on the boring bar.

[@moosesmachinery]

@WinkysWorkshop also, on those cheap ang lock vises, it may be a good idea to pull it apart and clean up the casting for the ball. Also, to get a good idea of its repeatability, put an indicator on the part while you clamp. See how high it rises. Do that a few times to see your average error. I posted a video on my channel a while back about it

[@WinkysWorkshop]

@@moosesmachinery It seems like there would always be some lift when clamping at the top but it also seems like more expensive vises would have the same problem.

[@robertginther9248]

I bought HHIP arbors for my Harig surface grinder, (Sopko makes the best), & they were NOT concentric at all. I use them only for roughing. Beware is all.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I've had several HIPP products that are top notch but I think they are just a supplier so who knows.... probably hit and miss.

[@65cj55]

Good Vice Winky, maybe bolt it down through a Metal Pan, like a Baking Pan or something for the Coolant issue.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I was thinking the same on the vise. Thanks

[@joell439]

Nice addition 👍👍😎👍👍

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Thanks

[@Curtislow2]

AT 5:00 YOU CAN HEAR THE FIRST BANG!

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Yeah.... I'm not sure that was the end mill breaking but it could have been.

[@andyZ3500s]

Left hand boring bars that could come in handy on the lathe or drill and tap a set screw through the flang of the B&S adapter. You could always take a screw out instead of pinning it. Looking forward to future videos on al the projects that you showed in the earlier video. How are you liking the Wells Index?

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Thanks Andy, I agree on the boring head

[@donsengine3158]

My brother would weld his food to his fork if it didn't need to end up in his stomach. That would be his answer. I've had issues with needing to reverse direction but was hampered by a threaded what have you. You could drill and tap a hole at the break between the head and shank and install a set screw., or make a locking tab washer to go between the two pieces. Make tab slots in each piece then bend the washer tabs into adjacent parts. Nice job on the clamps Winky. Don

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Thanks Don. Somebody else said to make a flat on the threads and install an set screw. I like that idea too... who knows

[@rkoellner63]

I agree with AWDJr. The spindle speed was too slow for the carbide. Rule of thumb, chips coming of the work should be straw or amber in color. They can turn whatever color they want when they hit the floor. Also, 2 flute EM's do a better job of keeping chips out of the groove. Not perfect, but better.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

"They can turn whatever color they want when they hit the floor" Or on my neck! Ha! I may end up going back to carbide but the HSS sure did nice. I don't remember the speed I was running. I was thinking 1200 rpm which is too slow by my calculation. Thanks

[@David-hm9ic]

Revisiting this one because it may help me position a 5" vise better in a round column mill. You've probably solved the problem with the boring head by now but here's another thought. Could you use brazed carbide tools that were intended to cut left to right on a lathe? A few of the very old brazed boring bars in a set I have were intended to cut left to right or to bore with the lathe rotating in reverse. Edit: Thanks for explaining why you made the stepped space for the nut. Makes a lot of sense. Recently I had to machine some welds back to the original contour of the piece. After trying about a half dozen different tools an old hand ground HSS bit that was in the back of the drawer turned out to be the hero of the day. Carbide is easy and quick and there are advantages but having HSS and being able to make my own tools sometimes saves the day. I'm working on a historic battleship restoration so sometimes the parts I chuck up are 115 years old.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

My old mill had a solid boring head so I could run it in reverse but my new mill boring head screws onto the taper. I ended up modifying a boring bar with an insert to make it work but they sell one also. Interesting work on the battleship!

[@aceroadholder2185]

Carbide tools are good... as long as you remember that you are cutting with a tool about as brittle as glass.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

No kidding!

[@johnfriend240]

Back in the day I paid Wells-Index $225 to grind an R8 taper in my B&S #9 spindle. It now holds both the B&S #9 and R8.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

The Chinese were nice enough to make the B&S collets available. I think in some respects they are better than R8. I think they hold the end mill better but also tend to require more force to make then break loose. The wells index draw bar is a plus.

[@aaronfritz7234]

I use an adapter to er40 and then run straight shifts. That way I can use the same tool on different machines. They make a collet adapter to er32 for that machine.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Yeah, I have one and it works well however, the additional 2 inches in length makes things less solid. I have no problem with the original B&S taper for most things. They seem like good collets and they were cheap. The only tooling that was a problem finding is a boring bar and drill chuck adapter but I have them now.

[@tonypike5785]

I looked for the link but i think you forgot tp post, i like the looks of your vice.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I think you are right! I'll do that now - thanks

[@outsidescrewball]

Nice build…

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Thanks!

[@goboyz8016]

Check out Mesa Tools Boring bar attachments. I just purchased one and looking forward to it arriving tomorrow. I think it's the exact thing you are looking for.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I've seen then on this site. Thanks. I was hoping to find one with a TCMT insert but I might end up getting one of these anyway.

[@Goldstandardmachine138]

For the boring head, use a lefthand (used running in reverse) boring bar/turning tool. instead of a righthand turning/boring bar.

[@cyclebuster]

why do you want to run the mill in reverse, the arbor is right hand threads. Is it to keep the chips from jamming?

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I might make one... (modify). They seem to be much higher priced than a standard bar

[@Goldstandardmachine138]

@@cyclebuster standard, regular old indexable insert boring bar for the lathe. Right hand (?)( i suspect is the proper term) while boring on a lathe with the chuck in the typical forward direction, as MOST ops are executed on a lathe, cutting from right to left in the typical turning or boring op on a lathe...well, install that boring bar in the boring head for the mill and run the spindle counter clockwise (anti clockwise for our allies on the other side of the atlantic ocean and beyond). The indexable carbide inserts are cheap, and leave a nice finish... at least the majority of the ones i use (admitted and guilty as charged for using amazon specials but were hobbyists, not pros........okay maybe hobby-pro-esque-ish, but in my experience, the amazons mid-priced insert tooling is halfway decent.)

[@cyclebuster]

My Palmgren vise is too long and hits the main casting about 2 in short of full travel, but has yet to be a problem. I may just mill that part off, i dont use the vise anywhere else

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Good idea as long as it doesn't weaken the vise.

[@newhobby1966]

You mentioned lack of “measuring” equipment to test flatness and squareness. How will you tram in the vise?

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I'll simply use a fixed dial indicator and make the back jaw parallel to the table travel. To really check squareness a marble table would be helpful. This old Tony has a video on checking a vise that is good. I did a visual check with a squared which is probably good for what I do but not real accurate. My last vise was different from side to side by maybe .0015" (twisted).

[@dans_Learning_Curve]

Nice work! Besides make content, what else do you make in your shop?

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I do a lot of weird stuff. Right now I'm making a bunch of toy tractor parts for a friend

[@andyZ3500s]

Look through his older videos, he alot of great content on different topics.

[@dans_Learning_Curve]

@@WinkysWorkshop fun! It would be fun to see those parts. Maybe a video with story time and show those parts. I'm sure being a plant maintenance guy you have a few stories stored away! 😂

[@WinkysWorkshop]

@@andyZ3500s Thanks Andy

[@WinkysWorkshop]

@@dans_Learning_CurveThanks, I'm always up for new ideas. I have made a few videos with odds and ends I've made including the tractor parts. I may make one of the tractor part I am working on now... I wasn't really a maintenance guy before I retired..... I did a lot of machine redesign and I specialized in a few areas that the maintenance department didn't want to be involved with. I'm not sure most of my experience could be communicated in a way that people would really understand or appreciate without a LOT of background. Certainly there was some fun filled times like removing a 600lb conveyor divert from a 30 foot high conveyor and replacing it with a smaller straight section that connected the two conveyors (didn't need the divert). The scary part is, it had to work and if it did not I would have to put the worn out piece of junk back up there. This would be a 2 day job and not something management would be happy about. It was stressful. The sad part about it was that the engineering department wanted no part of the project. Of course they were willing sacrificed an engineer wannbe like me. My fix worked well and I was the hero but it could have quite easily been a disaster.

[@magicbytes3835]

Hello Winky, buy a suitable boring bar or make one, a good excuse for another video, why not try mist cooling, less mess, there are many videos on the topic, thanks for sharing your video with us, cheers from magicbytes 😷👍👍👍

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I've been down that road, not a fan of mist. I might not be a fan of flood either but I'm going to give it a try. It seemed like the mist didn't do a lot unless I was making a mess.

[@magicbytes3835]

@@WinkysWorkshop OK Winky, the boring bars that are used on your boring head is it 1/2 inch diameter ?

[@stevewilliams2498]

What happened at 5 minutes? I think the damage was done then ? There was a funny noise as the cutter made contact with the workpiece.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

You may be correct... it's hard to say. From what many are saying I was running too slow.

[@frankpiazza953]

What type of end mill cutters do you recommend for non production worl? TiN, TNic, etc.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

No idea... right now I'm leaning toward HSS now.

[@robertwalker7457]

Mate, just use round HSS and make your own tool to stick out the side. Because it is at 90 degrees to the work you don't required the clearance down the shank. It is more like a traditional turning tool. Cheap and simple.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I was looking at my current boring bar with the TCMT insert. I'm going to mill the back side to expose the insert... a very easy fix.

[@leehicks5219]

I am sure You know this, Sir, carbide does not like vibration or movement whether from the quill or table while cutting, I noticed that on that cut that it broke on that when You started that cut there was a noise like the table or quill or even gibbs were loose, also it looks like You were climb cutting on that cut and if so if something was loose or vibration, that could be the issue with the carbide, again I know You know this also, but chuck and clamp and cut everything as close as possible, Thanks Love Your Videos, God Bless.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I agree... movement somewhere. I think there are several possibilities. First the vise was not very solid. Second the knee was not locked down and three, the RPM was too low. The mill was cutting a slot... so technically one side was climb cutting. However, this should not have been a problem... it is also very likely that chips got stuck in the groove and broke the end mill. I think the new vise, higher speeds and flood coolant will probably do much better.... or even a blast of air to keep the chips clear.

[@alfredrichter6236]

The problem with this kind of mounting a vice - you always have to dial it in to be square to the mill. With a signplate you could mount the vice in different position and never have to dial it in again. You dial in the signplate once at that’s it.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

The vise actually has keys on the bottom that just happen to line up with a Tee slot. I need to try them and see if I can make it square.

[@grippgoat]

Didn't see anyone else mention... I've never run a machine tool in my life, so take this with a big grain of salt... But if I'm not mistaken, you were climb cutting when the endmill broke, and the internet says not to do climb cuts because it breaks endmills. 😅

[@WinkysWorkshop]

The mill was in a slot so technically it was cutting normal on one side and climb cutting on the other. Climb cutting is okay in this case but in most cases it's not a good idea. I think chips getting caught in the cut probably did it. I should have had air blowing on the end mill to keep the chips cleared out.

[@grippgoat]

@@WinkysWorkshop ah, ok. I guess I couldn't see clearly on my phone..😅

[@grntitan1]

I think you were running the carbide too slow and the feed too fast. Just my observation. The parts still turned out as intended.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I think you and several others are correct! Thanks

[@jeffreyhallam5517]

I don’t know how useful this will be but I’m gonna share. My first vice was a grinding vice that required hold down clamps very similar to the cnc vice you’ve got there. I never felt like my set up was reliable with those hold downs. Tight enough to not move always felt like it was risking damage to the table. I broke down and bought a cheaper Kurt copy Chinese nock off and frankly it was way better. Also the coolant channels make a surprisingly big difference in regard to the mess. Just my thoughts. Do with them as you will.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I'm not super worried about the vise moving but the coolant will likely be an issue. I'm going to make some sheet metal deflectors but i may end up doing as you suggested.

[@ronkennedy213]

Double Header

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Yep... ha. Thanks Ron

[@JessicaRoss-i6t]

You need to turn up your speed when milling. You won’t break your end mill.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I agree, I'm still learning. I was feeding too fast too. This was the first project on this mill. I have an RF30 mill drill before. This is certainly a much better mill but the lead screws move the table twice as fast (.200" vs .100" per turn on the mill drill). Apparently this is common but I prefer the slower screw. I now have flood coolant to keep the higher speeds cool. I know carbide can run very hot but those hot chips down the shirt are painful.

[@E-Glide]

Loctite.....done

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I think I'm going to machine a flat on the threads and use a large set screw. I'll probably never take the boring head off but never say never.

[@ellieprice363]

Boring head solution. Unless you intend to take it apart make the fit permanent with 609 Loctite.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I'm thinking about pinning it

[@ellieprice363]

@@WinkysWorkshop You can always remove Loctite joints with heat but pinning will work well also. I suggest putting two of those clamps on each side of the vise. You’ve got three T slots so might as well use two of them.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

@@ellieprice363 I thought about that too. It never hurts to be more solid!

[@dcraft1234]

No need for coolant. Carbide is not as sharp (generally), needs more speed and power and more rigidity. Sometimes they just break, too. Par for the course. Love your new old mill!

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I'm thinking coolant to use HHS.