Winter Dataslate Singles Tier List | Fireside 40K | Ep. 64

[@Minilopo18]

Art of war can pump out as much content as they like you guys are *THE* ASMR warhammer podcast par none

[@endisut1635]

Shoutout to Josh Roberts losing to 2 6x Grotesques, 3 Scourges, and a Voidraven Bomber and those 3 datasheets getting nerfed exactly. Really makes you think huh.

[@Vorpaliant]

And the previous day, a bringers of flame list drove over his cat.

[@amofinc9245]

Isnt the GK new detachment giving NDK full rerolls to hit?

[@chaotic9157]

Yes

[@scottcairns2933]

It’s army wide rerolls. Reroll 1s always and reroll all if wholly within hallowed ground

[@youngboy2255]

The eldar glazing is insane. Army is bad right now. Great video otherwise guys. Keep it up!

[@splitstriker]

Maybe I’m wrong - but I’m hopeful! - Vik

[@LA-hx8gj]

Death guard A tier is wild

[@Darkja]

Im fine with nerfing Guard to a degree, HOWEVER, i totally agree with you that Leontus should still be able to order Super-Heavies, and if they wanted to prevent him giving orders to Bullgryn/Ogryn it should have been noted on the ability as an exeption. Right now, as one of the maybe 3 or 4 players that still enjoy playing with a super heavy here and there, it sucks... they lost the ability to overwatch, then they lost access to the detachment rule, and now they lost access to the army rule... we are back to super heavies having no interaction with anything at all to the point they could basically be "allies", its ridiculous that on their own army they just get overshadowed by an allied Knight (which is probably cheaper! and shares the same benefits of being part of the army as the super-heavy). GW talked about a "tank"based detachment on the codex, how much do we bet they AGAIN leave super-heavies outside with nothing to help them (or just marginally) and it simply focuses on russes and dorns.

[@Yoyoman996]

Small note, but the Custodes dreads don't move 12, they actually move 6, or 8 inches if you include the +2 from the detachment. The telemon specifically in the new detachment has move 12.

[@DreadQuinn]

Telemon moves 10” in the Det, the Detachment adds 2” to movement of Walkers and +1 to Advance and Charge.

[@Yoyoman996]

​@@DreadQuinnyep, I just added the numbers up lol

[@123johnnymac123]

The telemon only has a 8 inch basic move so 10 in this detachment.

[@Yoyoman996]

@@123johnnymac123 ah I see I mustve looked at the toughness lol. Havent ran it yet in 10th cuz it seems bad lmao

[@123johnnymac123]

​@@Yoyoman996Same! Going to give them a go this week though.

[@carolineturingds]

Just a quick note, you commented on the idea of playing Noise Marines in Creations of Bile. However, you can't play Emperor's Children (and thus, Noise Marines) in that detachment, because the EC index only states that you can use the detachments "found in Codex: Chaos Space Marines".

[@kylemacgillivary5577]

The Grey Knights were definitely not evaluated correctly. The detachment is only reroll 1's to hit if you aren't wholly within their hallowed ground. If you are wholly within their hallowed ground or wholly within 6" of purifiers you get full hit rerolls. It's the Canoptek Court rule but slightly better. Sure they might not have True Silver Armor in the new detachment but that got a big nerf, and the new detachment has a 6" deepstrike strat that infantry (non-terminators) can still charge out of. A 10 man unit of purifiers with crowe coming down 6" away and shooting, then charging and possibly using the strat to get full wound rerolls ontop of the hit rerolls is gonna be scary. As long as you have the angles, I could see shooting 1 unit and charging another. You might take out 2 units with them, or take out 1 and cripple another

[@scottcairns2933]

If the meta shifts away from everyone taking 12” ds denial GK should be in a good spot to catch people way off guard with two big melee units that teleport in and charge on a 6. Draigos termis and radiant champion techmarine w 8 Servitors on the go turn for example

[@kylemacgillivary5577]

A techmarine with servitors doesn't sound very good. I'd rather go in either with 10 purifies and crowe or 10 strikes and a brotherhood champion with radiant champion

[@scottcairns2933]

@ the techmarine has by far the most attacks, eight, of any Gk character to proc radiant mortals. WS3+ but rerolling, and the 4 multimeltas are BS3+ rerolling, and at 6” for the melta bonus. Plus 4 more servo melee. Then they could be annoying to remove w the 4++ strat. Total commitment, 185pts and a cp or two. Plus until the go turn they’re buffing an NDK.

[@kylemacgillivary5577]

Sure the techmarines themselves might have the most attacks for a character but you're sacrificing like 30 attacks at 6/2/2 if you're not bringing in a 10 man of strikes/purifiers 6" away from an enemy unit. That's going to far out weigh what the servitors or techmarine can do. Also the techmarine buffing a dreadknight has a lot less value now because of the rerolls. Also the brotherhood champion has full wound rerolls if you are targeting a character unit so he can make better use of the enhancement without the wound reroll strat. The brother captain for terminators I'd say is also a better option for the enhancement as well because he gets full wound rerolls with psychic weapons, which his melee is psychic.

[@firesidepodcast9977]

Hopefully time will tell, Vik and I aren't big fans of NDK builds, but it would be nice to see the GK doing well again :)

[@IronMan-vh5qx]

some things i noticed. blood angels have the new oath in there good detachment (just run codex datasheets), also grey knights can get full rerolls to hit in the new detachment if in hallowed ground (always 1s reroll)

[@carolineturingds]

I'm very baffled by this tendency. Why drop the good melee datasheets (BA) to play with the mediocre ones from the base codex, only to get +1 to wound against ONE target in melee, when you already have lance??

[@IronMan-vh5qx]

@@carolineturingds not sure its better of course, but buffing alot of cheap 70-90 point units to rather good output punching up might be an alternative MSU playstyle in Liberator to the usual very expensive BA bricks (Death Company + Char, Dante + Sang Guard). some of these units also got natural buffs on top (Combat Blades, Outriders,..) in the slate

[@razorfate1007]

I strongly hope that we shall se aeldari/guaard game from youU

[@0MaxK0]

Hope you can make Eldar work Vik, I certainly cannot... I'm expecting a rather negative meta for the faction in the short term

[@splitstriker]

Will try my best 🙏🏽 - Vik

[@johnnywatkins]

Thanks for a tier list with a discussion about why you think things sit where they sit, very helpful

[@xxalsinusxx2038]

It blew me away that they gave UMs the +1 to wound on Oath. Sally and Ravenguard players have been screeching all edition that Dark Angels and Space Wolves are the reason they suck, all the while they were being balanced based off what people like John Lennon were doing with Calgar and Ventris. While I think that any chapter of SM will be able to go out and win with a power level around upper B to lower A, they're going to get slapped with nerfs in 3 months time for an army that is as powerful as current UMs. And they'll still blame Azreal somehow 🤣

[@Ezekiel88210]

I agree so much with this Dont give +1 wound to UM and nerf Necrons and we would have had a very healthy meta

[@sirdragdord701]

David, what do you think about taking again some indirect? My idea is that 2 earthshakers batteries (or just 2 basilisk) with Ursula can provide some board control (which is more in question after all main board control pieces nerfs) via slowing enemy and harassing enemy units to taunt opponent to commit more into your gunline. Or it just too much points for this and git gud positioning?

[@firesidepodcast9977]

Yea, not bad. HWT's for 50 points per in the new deatchment seem good, especially if you're already incentivised to play Ursula Creed again!

[@clownmode3626]

Love the video guys!

[@DZ-js9kl]

Great video and detail, thanks both!

[@firesidepodcast9977]

Our pleasure!

[@muratferguson4534]

WHY do you hate Black Templars so much that you always forgot them?

[@muratferguson4534]

I remember when VIK talking about a part of lore - even then he had a wrong memory about Sigismund who he thought he was beaten in a duel... (which he had wrong in mind - it was another guy who was beaten).... Then last time you forgot them as well in a discussion... This time again.

[@firesidepodcast9977]

@@muratferguson4534 Damn we forgot them twice in a row, apologies! I promise they'll be in the next one! Where do you think they sit in the meta? - Vik

[@muratferguson4534]

@firesidepodcast9977 I think as bad as Blood Angels for the most part if you play BT units. But If you play Rightous crusaders without any BT units to get +1 to wound I think at least upper B-Tier if not A Tier. But as usually - most people dont realize how strong BT can be after the change to Fervent acclamation will give you the better effect of enhencements and Stratagems so far. Went 2 weeks ago on a RTT and went undefeated - so with the new updates and my list geting renewed (just put out 2 lancers to have NO SINGLE BT keyword in my army for +1 to wound) I think i am in a good position.

[@splitstriker]

@@muratferguson4534smashed it, I think it’s been the case for a while that faction specialists can do brilliantly with innovation within their faction and you’ve proved it. Thanks for the report, not many Black Templar players out there so would’ve been hard for us to rate it accurately. Vik

[@NDWolff-of2zw]

@firesidepodcast9977 I love how easy it is to tell if Vik or David write a comment based on the presence or absence of sass

[@JS-vu8po]

To get hit rerolls and +1 to wound with Soulforged Warpack, you need to take a Ld7 test and have a warpsmith with an enhancement nearby who will also increase the amount of mortal wounds you take if you fail your essentially 50-50 leadership check. To get hit rerolls and +1 to wound with Ironstorm: just declare your target in command phase lol (or 2 targets if you have Roboute) Ridiculous

[@maxmagnus377]

It really does feel like the "balancing" (quotation marks cause of some very questionable calls especially in this last dataslate) GW does is two-fold. One is an amalgam of tournament results, mostly winrate and tournament wins, but the other really does feel like player perception. We saw it earlier in the edition with Aeldari. They started out much too strong, got nerfed mildly at first, then heavily shortly after. Then were in an arguably fine spot of 51-53% winrates for a while, got nerfed hard again. Then hovered right around the 49-50% mark, got nerfed AGAIN with a few buffs sprinkled in, with only the scorpions and Karandras being in any way impactful... Only when they started scraping the bottom of winrates did we see the first balance pass where it was only small buffs to units that, as you said, still do not see any competitive play. I really do think that the latter half of the nerfing season for Aeldari was much more due to players complaining than raw data. We see it now with Sisters. The codex previews happened and everyone was up in arms about the Penitent Host especially, which GW seemed to promptly points nerf out of contention completely. Quickly, it became clear that an optimized Bringers list could table anything, which they addressed with points nerfs. Remarkably well I might add btw. Sisters landed at around a 47-48% winrate after October, but then it very much seemed that player perception once again put the nail in the coffin which ended up with what we got now. Despite the small buff to the Penitent Host detachment rule, I don't think it'll be the optimal way to play sisters now. Army of faith got killed by the Miracle Dice nerf, and Bringers got hit so hard we probably won't see it for the rest of the edition. A very sad state of affairs where we are now back with it likely being the case that the Index detachment is the only real way to play sisters, just with much more expensive units than we had back when the Index did alright for a bit due to massive points drops from the start of the edition. Feels exactly the same way with Scourges. At 120 points they really weren't all *that* phenomenal, they sure do whiff a lot. But players hate to see their tank blown up by a unit they then cannot interact with. I see no other reason to nerf them again, really. The difference between Aeldari on one side, and Sisters/Drukhari on the other, is that Aeldari have a roster that can take these blows and adapt. Throughout 10th, they've had: - The Wraithknight build - The Fire Prism build - The Yncarne/Nightspinner build - The Wraithguard build - The Support Weapon build - The Aspect warrior MSU build - The "triple threat" build People can rag on Aeldari continuously as they keep taking arguably unnecessary nerfs (talking about the ones past the ~51% winrate state they were in since about late spring/early summer time). Sisters have like 16 non-character datasheets? 4 of those are pointed exclusively for Penitent Host. Drukhari have 1 decent anti-tank unit, that thrives only by virtue of their shoot & scoot ability, the rest are simply too fragile, and there aren't many of those. But people hate miracle dice, people hate shoot & scoot uninteractivity. The issue is that is the only thing these armies have. I really feel like GW should get off twitter tbh xD Just use the data. What's winning too much/too little? What units/detachments don't see play or are auto picks? Are there alternatives for those roles in the roster? Can we bring one down and the other up so as to not end up in these situations sisters and Drukhari are in now, where despite not being that good, player hate makes them take even more nerfs than they ever really needed?

[@Pontiff_Scrunglus]

Nerfing Guard, Sisters and for some unknown reason Drukhari, then within the same weekend releasing Starshatter Arsenal just epitomize how the monkeys in the balance team throw literal shit at the wall and just call it a day. Guard definitely deserved pretty much all the points costs they took but for what reason are we not allowed to order Baneblades? Did a guard player win a game with one against someone on the balance team against Necrons in the week before the dataslate dropped? Oh wait, no they didn't. They can't even consider how the game would change when making the Lord Solar change lmao, wcyd I guess

[@Lykandras]

GSC are higher. AoC is a massive buff for them. Also tailoring what you get back is awesome. Throwing away your army first turns was a way to lose the game, banking on the 4+. Also XC gets back 30 metamorphs now, really good.

[@firesidepodcast9977]

Yea interesting to note, what's the best combo's to tailor what you get back you think?

[@Lykandras]

@firesidepodcast9977 Depends on the game state and MU. Flacos are always good for 2 points, if you need to kill chaff or score secondaries. In Outlander flacos 5 x flacos if you dont need sticky bikes. XC a combination of 5er flacos, or 10 flacos/acos/metas thanks to enhancement you get 12 points here. Playing with 60 metas is quite strong. XC is the big GSC winner of the BDS. Marine meta and Metas? LETS GO =) HoA dont know, havent played it much. Flacos/10 metas/10 Aberrants I would guess. Bio Flaco and 10 Aberrants or 2 x 5 Aberrants. New CA really unlocked builds here. Before CA change a 10 man brick of abbies was too risky. New hotness seems to be 10 abbies infiltrating and really forcing opponent to do stuff. In generell GSC community is really hyped. Maybe Bio is a bit nerfed, which is fine. It was too dominating. But overall feels like same powerlevel but much more reliable and skill dependend. Previous CA was no fun for anyone.

[@thetmes855]

Tyranids can't FNP two units anymore on demand.

[@kellyhoesing2573]

Exocrine never goes up because they only care about models they actually have for purchase

[@AuraXars]

Would love to see your take of HM sisters Vik! Sainty feels core rn, but also what build you're looking at!

[@lovelyquarantine4626]

yes i would love that. also maybe PH as a treat :3

[@Vorpaliant]

Definitely seems like Drukhari and Sisters were way overnerfed. Sisters were already B tier and pulling in like 47% WR. This seems like they nerfed sisters, and then didn't look at any data for three months, then decided to nerf them again. Drukhari...I guess they are all paying for the sins of Skari?

[@DiceandGlory]

Agree with the take on guard 110%

[@runeh3022]

It's always funny how CSM rates so high when the win-rate is often below 45%. :-P

[@splitstriker]

We tend to consider the maximum potential of the army, so it doesn’t really always line up with win rate% - Vik

[@clownmode3626]

Marines have had ass win rates and yet they perform. Csm is great

[@runeh3022]

@clownmode3626 Space Maries are in a bit of a unique posution though, as they are often the first army for neww players as the poster boys of 40K and there is quite a lot falling under the SM umbrella so to speak. I think CSM are dropping a bit as the Accursed spam is less effective and yes, you have people like Liam tha do extremely well with them, but as he has said himself, his Veterans list is very purpose-built for the UK-based tournament type terrain, which doesn't neccessarily translate that well to GW or even WTC terrain lauouts, which I think is more relevant for most people.

[@geordieglobetrotter7090]

Seriously who did sisters hurt? I was winning about 40% of games prior to these nerfs. Wtf am i gonna do now 😂

[@michaelallen7269]

Death Guard Is in A tier and chaos knights are in C tier the rest of the list seems fine. y

[@lassemelson5668]

i guess u havent played ck recently

[@sirdragdord701]

Also, in addition to my previous comment i want to add that, i think, David is too harsh about rough riders. 2 examples from different players from vastly differeny player skill. ~1 month ago i won our TTS server 3 round tournament with 30 players with infantry only guard (30 kasrkins, 30 aquillons, billions of scions and other battleline guys). And i had 2x10 rough riders and they were pretty good in every game. And as second example i want to say about John Russel' roster from Top 3 WCW with them. Even John Lennon in interview with goonhammer said that liked them after their match and would think about adding some cavalry. Maybe it's UKTC and GW terrain formats differences that make you think about their mediocrity, but idk, 2+ 2+ almost all targets on counter charge is kinda cool

[@firesidepodcast9977]

Yea I definitely don't hate Rough Riders at all :) Infact if whirlwinds don't crop up everywhere in the meta I"d definitely be playing them! Only if d2 indirect exists, otherwise they're good!

[@DreadQuinn]

No one is running 9 Dreads in the Solar Detachment unless it’s a joke. Think you missed Bikes, they are actually viable now and you will see them (new Datasheets), I don’t think the Dreads are that survivable in this meta and really CP dependent. I might own all of the Dreads in multiples..my contribution to the English tax base..you’re welcome.

[@duanagusmcbain5931]

BA Lib group that doesn't take any BA keywords get the +1s. Mass phobos units, OutridersJPI and Ass Ints are gunna be good too.

[@IronMan-vh5qx]

yeah and the combat knife buff also on top helps alot of these 70-80 poinst MSU units (scouts, reivers, incursors,...) or just direct buffs like outriders

[@firesidepodcast9977]

Oo that's a good idea perhaps

[@TheBlightspawn]

Oh no, Sisters didnt get compensatory buffs 🎻😂