PHILOSOPHY - Race: Racial Ontology #2 (Naturalist Theories of Race)

In the second of a four part series, “Racial Ontology: A Guide for the Perplexed,” David Miguel Gray (Colgate University) introduces naturalist theories of race. Naturalist theories place questions of race in the domain of biology and appeal to physical properties to define what races are. Problems for developing naturalist theories are discussed as well as some solutions.
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[@anasahmed4779]

There is no discussion here, only inability to see a different argument. Turn back from the comments section. TURN BACK I SAY.

[@Hermanubis1]

How can so many lies be put into so many videos in such a short space of time? Globalists!

[@FulgrimTG]

Hundreds of thousands of years of divergent evolution in profoundly different environments won't result in any genetic variation at all, that makes perfect sense!

[@Cosmicmoss]

+Jordan Sparkes Humans only left africa and migrated around world around 40,000 years ago. by then we had learned to make an use tools and overcame maybe forms of selective pressure.

[@anarchoconservative2255]

+Jordan Sparkes well put.

[@legral]

Actually, the recent OoAfrica theory is slowing being debunked. There's plenty of evidence that homo sapiens was either way earlier on his way out, maybe 200kya and or that lots of other hominids played a significant role. (Like the Neanderthaler, who's genome is largely preserved in caucasians in asians, and of whom Africans have inherited 0 DNA) Also, evidence is mounting that the center of speciation was actually Asia. Third, your assertion that we "overcame" forms of selective pressure is mind-boggling!

[@legral]

@Jordan, my comment was referring to another poster, whose own words are somehow not shown anymore- weird

[@FulgrimTG]

I got notified about that, his comment was removed, but I read it before.

[@LloydSkyLion]

wtf comment section! beliefs are NOT arguments. Just stop it.

[@australiabelongstoafricans7078]

There are more genetic variations within a dog breed than between the different dog breeds does this mean dog breeds are not real and a social construct?? There is about 15% genetic differences between the races. My daughter is 68% genetically the same as a fruit-fly, in that scenario 2-% is whole lot we dont know. This is pseudo-philosophy and "wordism"

[@LloydSkyLion]

@@australiabelongstoafricans7078 15% variation between races. Source or stfu?

[@australiabelongstoafricans7078]

@@LloydSkyLion I think the Africans have the biggest genetic difference. Its moot point, regardless if its 1% my daughter is 68% genetically identical as a fruit-fly, in that scenario 1-2% is a whole lot. Barbujani et al. estimated that −85 % of SNPs are common to all human populations and that only approximately 15 % of SNPs are population-specific Dog breeds have more genetic variations within a breed compared to a different breed. Do we conclude that dog breeds are a social construct? Just to nail the coffin lid down on this: International criminal courts have a lot to say about race being physical. There are no social constructs under international law. Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide Article 2: "Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part" Notice the international courts have stated racial groups can be fully or partly physically destroyed and its a crime of genocide to do so. How can you physically destroy a social construct? You cant because there are no social constructs under international law

[@misterdorsh6333]

...and this is why social scientists need to take biology classes.

[@somedude3448]

@@nietzschesghost8529 yeah, lots. Race = ancestry, general lineage, that is what genetics show

[@austinm419]

Richard Pawkins

[@bulwark5858]

I don't see what can be controversial about this. Race is a natural property, not a social construct. You don't get to choose what race somebody is, it's inherited. Ethnicity is quite different, and that does include things such as culture.

[@chadballsac]

Your race being socio-historicallly constructed =/= you being able to choose your race. The racial categories may be socially and historically defined but this does not mean you can personally choose which social and historical context you as an individual fall into.

[@infinitytraveller7772]

Bulwark ‎ ur preaching naturalism and is a religion

[@somedude3448]

@@chadballsac that means nothing. Either race is inherant or it is not. Race is just general lineage, similar to the concept of sub-species and the genetic data on that is pretty clear

[@australiabelongstoafricans7078]

@@somedude3448 International criminal courts have a lot to say about race being physical. There are no social constructs under international law. Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide Article 2: "Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part" Notice the international courts have stated racial groups can be fully or partly physically destroyed and its a crime of genocide to do so. How can you physically destroy a social construct? You cant because there are no social constructs under international law

[@jamesdonahue1966]

Great shows , how about a Mendel square? If we start with any 2 medium brown horses or dogs , we can get all breeds in 8 generations. I have blue eyes because of the loss of genetic information, the same reason I burn easier in the sun. We don't think of different color hair as having deeper properties, the same mechanics control skin color, the notion of races seems less than scientific . I am closer to every male on the planet genetically than I am my own mother, the number of differences between male and female dwarfs any other subdivision . I have Italian Hispanic nephews that are taken as Asians most of the time. Anything that can define me as an "other" can be problematic, you know how short people are. I think if we trace back our lineage we will find our first parents brown haired , brown eyed, brown skinned, medium height individuals. The amount of genetic drift in humans is far less than any other mammal , we are pretty much the same. Thanks for your time Jim

[@HansBezemer]

"Race" is not a well-defined zoological concept - in part for the reasons given here. Different "races" can interbreed, which makes it difficult to keep "purebred" specimens outside of a domesticated context. It shares that characteristic with subspecies, BTW, but there are conditions (like geographic dispersion) that effectively prevents interbreeding. So - talking about "race" in a biological context is quite futile, since it isn't really a concept. It's more of an anthropology thing. The "grouping" (like on the genotype or phenotype) will always be arbitrary - and hence open to discussion. Given the current political stance on "race" I feel most biologists will consider they have something better to do than being called "racists". Which is funny when you think of it, because those who consider racism to be the biggest evil in the world, have everything to gain (politically) by persisting that races exist. Worse, their very existence DEPENDS on it.

[@yoyojs9230]

wonderful information. question what term should i use instead of race ?

[@mr1nyc]

Yoyo JS How about shirt color or name. Why refer to people by genetic attributes? Seems that it has not been benefitial to humanity.

[@australiabelongstoafricans7078]

There are more genetic variations within a dog breed than between the different dog breeds does this mean dog breeds are not real and a social construct?? There is about 15% genetic differences between the races. My daughter is 68% genetically the same as a fruit-fly, in that scenario 2-% is whole lot we dont know. This is pseudo-philosophy and "wordism"

[@australiabelongstoafricans7078]

International criminal courts have a lot to say about race being physical. There are no social constructs under international law. Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide Article 2: "Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part" Notice the international courts have stated racial groups can be fully or partly physically destroyed and its a crime of genocide to do so. How can you physically destroy a social construct? You cant because there are no social constructs under international law

[@Hermanubis1]

Haplogroup. Or the same words detectives use when they do DNA tests to test the race of the person.

[@zmail8566]

When are you uploading the next part!?!

[@Hermanubis1]

IQ research lol

[@Shangori]

Sad thing this video. While you try to give a definition for naturalist definition of race and even link to certain papers explaining the definition of it, you seem hellbend of linking this definition to the properties intellect, morality and general behavioral properties. The (current-ish) definition(s) for biological race doesn't include these properties by definition. So why in the world do you keep bringing them up? I like the paper 'Biological Races in Humans', because it goes into the definitions used very well and also why there are no human races going by these definitions. I urge people to read the manuscript for this paper: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3737365/ I agree with their conclusion: there are no human races. Honestly I don't think the term 'race' fit anywhere as a biological concept because the definitions are way too arbitrary. I could argue now that 'blacks' and 'whites' can be ecotypes (read paper), but, as the paper itself states, this again is completely arbitrary Just to anticipate the next video: I do think race CAN be a social construct. I just don't think it's a very helpful one. 'Blacks' in america are not tied, in any way, to africa. And (thankfully, says this european) white americans are not in any way tied to europe. That does give a bit of a problem, however. Because if you accept that racism is nothing more than the discrimination based on ONE adaptive trait; based on the color of somones skin, there is no such thing as racism, nor cultural appropriation. The definition of race is too arbitrary to define it by law, nor be able to appropriate certain things to certain races. You could, of course, still appropriate certain things to culture. But that's independent on the color of someones skin. You could say black americans are a subculture of american culture, but you cannot say that black americans share the same culture as ALL black people in the world. That would be ludicrous. So, as so many many MANY people have already done (thankfully): race should just be let go as the concept by which it stands for, for certain people. I don't see color. And neither should you. And just to poke the hornet's nest: That's why I was in favor of the hashtag all lives matter, instead of black lives matter.

[@fringeelements]

+Shangori thealternativeright.com/2016/02/15/the-existence-of-race/

[@Shangori]

Fringe Elements Mind if I go by the scientific paper over a political site?

[@fringeelements]

Shangori The article links dozens of scientific papers, making tables out of them. And why do you imagine that the author of that paper is any less politically motivated than the authors of that article on that website?

[@Shangori]

Fringe Elements _"The article links dozens of scientific papers, making tables out of them."_ And then state opinions and making their own conclusions based on them. _"And why do you imagine that the author of that paper is any less politically motivated than the authors of that article on that website?"_ Peer. Review.

[@galek75]

The act of giving meaning to anything is arbitrary per se.

[@bignothing9154]

6:38 Couldn't they be XY? Like, both?

[@shadowmaydawn]

But that would make them a new race then.

[@odistabettor]

Race X? immediately thought of Speed Racer

[@jadeneiman5039]

This shi too smart for my brain.

[@australiabelongstoafricans7078]

It's wordism, and religious dogma. There are more genetic variations within a dog breed than between the different dog breeds does this mean dog breeds are not real and a social construct?? There is about 15% genetic differences between the races. My daughter is 68% genetically the same as a fruit-fly, in that scenario 2-5% is whole lot we dont know. This is pseudo-philosophy and "wordism"

[@australiabelongstoafricans7078]

International criminal courts have a lot to say about race being physical. There are no social constructs under international law. Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide Article 2: "Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part" Notice the international courts have stated racial groups can be fully or partly physically destroyed and its a crime of genocide to do so. How can you physically destroy a social construct? You cant because there are no social constructs under international law

[@wrnr_mn]

Constructionism to get around decolonization.

[@australiabelongstoafricans7078]

If we all came from Africa what was wrong with the colonization of Africa? The Europeans were just going home???!

[@weltgeist2604]

6:53 Or just mixed race?

[@shadowmaydawn]

That's still a seperate category of race.

[@myothersoul1953]

@TheSpecialistGamerX2 Is each mixture of races its own category? 1/2 African, 1/4 Japanese, 1/4 Russian? The number of combinations is huge, how useful will race be when the offspring of every couple is there own race?

[@myothersoul1953]

@TheSpecialistGamerX2 Yes race is a social construct. It's a social construct with no good use other trying to correct the problems its use created in the first place.

[@australiabelongstoafricans7078]

There are more genetic variations within a dog breed than between the different dog breeds does this mean dog breeds are not real and a social construct?? There is about 15% genetic differences between the races. My daughter is 68% genetically the same as a fruit-fly, in that scenario 2-% is whole lot we dont know. This is pseudo-philosophy and "wordism"

[@australiabelongstoafricans7078]

If race is a social construct you couldn't have mixed races. That would require to differing races to create "mixed race"

[@infinitytraveller7772]

physical??? geez

[@Pope2501]

At 3:47 this series ceases to be an academic endeavor and becomes biased propaganda. The unwillingness to examine a prevailing point a of view on its own merits and not through the lens of an opposing view is the telltale mark of a propagandist.

[@jeffa404]

I completely agree.

[@JasonBurkeMurphy]

Gray links to three papers that engage the opposing views he listed very thoroughly. He is very clear that he agrees with these papers and chooses to proceed from there. You might have a counter-argument but Gray is not manipulating the hearer and doesn't deserve to be called a propagandists for this.

[@TheThreatenedSwan]

Jason Murphy They're all real things though. He just dismisses them as "older views," but races have shared natural properties (phenotypes), these properties are inheritable, and they can be placed in a hierarchy (blue eyes and lighter skin will be better for dreary areas with less light, brown eyes and brown skin for the opposite, and beyond that, certain races have larger frames than others so they are universally better in the modern world)

[@OsirusHandle]

"(blue eyes and lighter skin will be better for dreary areas with less light, brown eyes and brown skin for the opposite" These are phsyical properties; he never denied that races may have physical differences, just moral, intelligent and behavioural, since all of those are either cultural or differ way too much in a single race to classify as the race. Behavioural traits for example can be genetic, however they can appear and dissapear in only two or three generations, making basing race X on behavioural actions is impossible.

[@somedude3448]

@@OsirusHandle they have different cognitive and behavioural averages which are largely a result of genetic differences. That isnt an uncommon view. Amoungst current intellegence researchers it is believed that at least 50% of the measured IQ difference between blacks and whites in the us is due to genetic differences

[@stanislavstoimenov1729]

Demography is destiny. If Europe hadn't been settled by White people, neither the Ancient Greece's classical heritage would have existed, nor the Roman empire's, nor the Christian cosmogony's and theology's. In a word, the Western civilization never would have come into existence. All of the KZbin servers, plus the back-ups, wouldn't be enough for me to list all of the West's accomplishments and contributions.

[@ken4975]

Perhaps race is just an irrational subjective categorisation.

[@ar_xiv]

if we're being descriptivist, then you got it.

[@somedude3448]

Its not. Its an aproximation of ancestry as genetic tests show.

[@australiabelongstoafricans7078]

There are more genetic variations within a dog breed than between dog breeds does this mean dog breeds are not real and a social construct?? There is about 15% genetic differences between the races. My daughter is 68% genetically the same as a fruit-fly, in that scenario 2-% is whole lot we dont know. This is pseudo-philosophy and "wordism"

[@ChuckBoldwyn]

Rationalized bullshit

[@Appleblade]

My bulldog would appreciate it if you stopped associating him with wolves, and suggesting his race is dumber than other races ... like border collies. The fact that he can't swim is also a sore spot.

[@assault321]

Race =/= Species

[@BlkAirFrce]

+Connor Patman stop that's racist

[@assault321]

not sure if troll or not, but what?

[@theMRsome12]

eh... well dogs are a sub species, and dog races are different than human races. long story.

[@australiabelongstoafricans7078]

There are more genetic variations within a dog breed than between the different dog breeds does this mean dog breeds are not real and a social construct?? There is about 15% genetic differences between the races. My daughter is 68% genetically the same as a fruit-fly, in that scenario 2-% is whole lot we dont know. This is pseudo-philosophy and "wordism"

[@keilanpouge5573]

Blah blah