WIYB Vise Surface Grinding Q&A Part 2

[@billmoran3812]

Hey Tom, I know from experience, most of the difficulty us novices face in doing any kind of precision work is making measurements correctly. Your explanations and demonstrations are priceless when it comes to learning the correct way to set up and measure. Very much appreciated.

[@oxtoolco]

+Bill Moran Hi Bill, Thanks for the nice comment. Your are correct that if you can measure reliably to a small increment you will only make really small mistakes. Thanks for the comment. Cheers, Tom

[@morrisgallo2361]

Hi Tom I really like the Q&A format when responding to comments. As you pointed out, it makes finding the information much easier. Thanks for your efforts and innovation.

[@KnolltopFarms]

I like, and therefore agree with your methodology on answering the barrage of questions you must get. Please know I'd never expect you to respond to all of the "good job" and "I love it" type of comments that I generally throw out. I guess it's just my minuscule way of showing the great gratitude I have towards you for sharing the knowledge you have with us out here. Thank you. Aloha, and Happy New Year's Eve...Chuck

[@briandantz4899]

Flip. At my dad's shop, we automated the traverse with an ABB drive, a gear motor and some limit switches. (x axis, left to right) the Y axis still gets moved in manually, you index the "y" and left the wheel spark out, rinse and repeat. Z only gets moved at the end of a complete pass.

[@Hardturnin]

Supurb you covered a lot. You do beautiful work and Stan working with you last video makes me want to go over everything on his site. I think he is great and he is accepted by you because you did not mind his valuable input which is for us. Thanks Stan and Tom!

[@oxtoolco]

+Lew Sou Hi Lew, Stan is a cool cat. We get along like we have known each other for years. Thanks for the comment. Cheers, Tom

[@SlowEarl1]

Love your videos .Every day is a school day when you want to be the best craftsmen you can be.You are a huge part of my journey.Thanks for doing what you do.Happy New year to you and your family.

[@geneelliott3230]

Often heard millions of an inch, what effect does temperature have on repeatability?Happy New Year, Thanks for all you do to educate us

[@garyweldele5302]

Great effort Tom. Great job of equilibration! I'm back on level ground with a far better understanding of surface grinding. Nice explanation of wheel wear and it's influence or actually....lack thereof. You are still the MAN!

[@lookcreations]

great pair of videos. very useful and reaffirmed what I picked up via suburban tools and tormech sites to name two. Always good when differing approaches share common ground . happy new year Tom.

[@VinceSaluto1]

Tom, I always enjoy watching your videos. Thanks. Looking forward to all the surface grinding videos. I've learned so much from all of you guys about machining but I think surface grinding is definitely something I want to learn more about. Vince

[@RobertPerrigoOkiechopper]

It's amazing that grinding can leave a " Mirror Finish " like on that vice . Thumbs up Tom. I also posted a couple of videos, And have a, HAPPY NEW YEARS .

[@racrguy]

Love your videos Tom, I really like these q&a type deals. I've probably learned more from this pair of videos that months of watching the machining only being done.

[@arockpcb1347]

great choice of questions to answer and easy to understand, concise answers. Thanks

[@holmes230536]

back in the fifties/sixties, our Jig Boring/Jig Grinding machine was installed in a temp controlled room, 24/7 it was a manual operated machine, I guess that solved the problem of warming up,

[@Paddington60]

Thank you Tom. This and the other vid explain very nicely everything about surface grinding I had been wondering about, especially how the grading wheel eroded. Happy New Year everyone John

[@johnmacdonald6201]

Tom, That was a really good video as you explained very clearly the reasoning behind the way you do things, but one thing that occurred to me as you were discussing the aspects of the grinding machine was how much actually does the carriage on which your magnetic vice sits affect the overall performance of precision grinding, as it seems to be mounted on some sort of roller bearing assembly which enables it to traverse from one side to another smoothly, if this was not right it would throw out any other measurements or settings, there must be a wear factor in there somewhere over a period of time from constant use of the machine, I would be interested in your thoughts in regards to that aspect of it. Hope you have a great New Year, regards John MD

[@hotdrippyglass]

Nice work Tom. My calibration training tells me that you might have missed an opportunity to emphasize that even with the cosine errors others have pointed out it is the relative '-change-' from one spot to another on the plane of the surface being measured that is being tested and not so much the actual value of each of the datums distances from the surface stone. As long as the cosine error doesn't change from one point to another it becomes irrelevant in measuring the flatness of the surface under test.

[@oxtoolco]

+hotdrippyglass I'm pretty sure I mentioned that in many cases we use the test indicator as a relative comparator as opposed to a true measuring instrument. I agree as long as your setup doesn't change who cares what position the indicator is in. Thanks for the comment. Cheers, Tom

[@1pcfred]

One thing as far as what else you can cover Tom, you mentioned different wheels for roughing and finishing grinding. You could go into some detail about grinding wheels. Not that all of that information would be too useful to me, I don't have a surface grinder in my home shop, but I'd still find your take on it interesting, and I might find something I can use too? I do have grinders.

[@johnbazaar8440]

I like your "calibration lab". Thanks, John

[@turningpoint6643]

High or maybe a better term is higher accuracy metrology (10ths level) is at least from my point of view a far less understood subject than it should be. I wish I knew a hell of a lot more about it than I do. However videos like this one really do help. And yeah that cosine effect is there. But for the most part for what you were doing it's a non issue as you've pointed out. Your checking and grinding for straightness and parallel surfaces. Zero needle deflection is the obvious goal instead of a known measurement to exact 10ths of how far something is out. Getting to the correct part size is probably easier done with one off part numbers by mikes etc. instead of setting a dti to a set of gauge blocks and having the possibility of a stack up of minor setting errors creeping in. Cosine being just one of em. Yourself, Stan, Don Bailey plus a few others have really gotten me interested in surface grinding and the techniques involved lately. I'm finally starting to see and somewhat understand where it would really help my own shops capability's. As a hobbiest, I think I've got a fairly extensive collection of manual machining information. But getting any good accurate information about surface grinding can and has been tough. I wasn't even all that interested in this type of machining until the last 6-8 months or so with all the current information that's starting to show up due to some real effort from people like yourself Tom. If you've got lot's of surface grinding videos coming up I'm more than looking forward to them. Bring em on please.

[@berockization]

What about dust and grit? Does using a surface grinder in the shop introduce abrasive dust to everything? I'd be inclined to use a dust extractor.

[@peterspence5196]

I haven't used a surface grinder since the early 90's & I miss it ! I was using a Japanese grinder that had power feeds in all axis. It was to me a great machine, but the head toolmaker at the time said it was a very ordinary grinder compared to European & US made machines of higher quality. I would like to try some of those machines one day. What is your favorite ? I'm looking forward to more of your grinding videos in the future. Cheers - Pedro...

[@andregross7420]

Hey Tom, you have no idea how much grinder envy I'm having right now. That roller ball way just looks like a dream to use! Wouldn't you be able to check height gauge squareness using a granite angle plate just like you could with a Squaremaster?

[@Psychlist1972]

"Dirty gauge bottoms" should be the name of your next series. You'd probably get lots of hits ;)

[@oxtoolco]

+Pete Brown Hey Pete, That is actually really funny when you say it that way. Thanks for the comment. Cheers, Tom

[@larrysperling8801]

really interesting video. i hope to see more on surface grinding. i have an old delta toolmakers grinder that i would like to get more use out of. how about some tool grinding ? how about more info on what wheels to use for different applications. happy new year tom.

[@iainfletcher6388]

Great Q&A video. It triggers more questions in my non-machinist mind...do you need a separate machine to do this? Could a horizontal mill, like Abom's K&T, be adapted with a magnetic vice etc. or am I missing something fundamental (max. spindle speed and more awkward to operate for extended periods)?

[@iainfletcher6388]

+metalhead2508 thanks for taking the time to validate my doubts. I'm sure someone's already tried it somewhere!

[@iainfletcher6388]

+metalhead2508 I did, hence the original comment re. awkwardness of use over long periods. Patience is required even with the high ratio bed traverse. I've no doubt CNC units are quite popular!

[@juanrivero8]

The "cosine effect" is there. But the cosine of 30 deg is .877... if I recall, or close to it, so you are about 10% off (in fact under) with a 30 deg missed angle. That is sort of what you got by "misangling." However once you have misangled, the error is constant. On the subject of warming up I agree with you, but not in the case of cars. In these days of multi-viscosity oils a car can be driven off right away -- if the ambient temp is right. If it is not, you have a problem, and here in Alaska in the winter I warm up the car before I put it under load, because even SAE 5 viscosity is jell-o at -20 C. In California I doubt it makes any difference at all, so go ahead, drive your car off cold. Isn't metrology fun? Thanks for the series, I learned something even if will never measure anything to 50 microns. Oh yes, happy new year!

[@mirlin3602]

Lubrication is not the only factor for allowing some kind of warm up in an engine. One of the main areas of wear is the cylinder bores caused by the pistons being out of round when cold. The mass of material around the wrist pin is far greater and more unevenly distributed than the skirt. The piston is machined, when cold, to allow for this expansion so it becomes round when up at working temps. When cold the piston measures unevenly , making wear an issue in the bores. This would be a problem whatever the climate.

[@juanrivero8]

Interesting comment, noted with thanks. Still, viscosity is a function of temperature!

[@886014]

Tom do you think you could consider doing some side-wheel work and showing it? I don't have to do it very often and absolutely hate doing it, however I was reminded just then as I needed to pick up a deep groove and pick it up to clean the groove up with the side of the wheel. Pucker-factor was at maximum, so I'd sure like to see how somebody like yourself tackles it.

[@oxtoolco]

+Pete F Hi Pete, Next time I need to do some I'll shoot some video. Depending on how much you need to remove try plunge grinding it. That is feed down vertically in increments much like you do when grinding normally. The only time I do a full side wheel push is when truing the fence on the magnet but this is usually only a couple tenths to clean it up fully. Thanks for the comment. Cheers, Tom

[@886014]

+oxtoolco Thanks Tom, I'll keep that in mind. The job I was doing when I wrote the comment was to clean up an AXA Toolpost holder. I needed all sides of the holder to be square and parallel with the bottom. It is very difficult to measure inside a groove like that to ensure it is indeed square too. In future I will pay more attention to side dressing the wheel. Keep up the informative videos, as they contribute to another day where I learn something new!

[@robertegan3889]

Hey Tom, I absolutely love your video's. I'm about to grind my own tooling vise. I keep getting stuck on how to grind the movable jaw to the rest of the vise. Any advice? Thanks, Robert

[@tomvitagliano250]

TomLove your grinding videos. I have much to learn about the art of grinding. You spoke of many things that can cause irregularities but haven't touched on wheel balancing and the finer points of wheel dressing. Will this be covered in future videos ?Thanks keep them coming.

[@oxtoolco]

+Tom Vitagliano Hi Tom, Got to save some subjects for future videos. Wheel balancing is a good one. Thanks for the comment. Cheers, Tom

[@tomvitagliano250]

Hi TomI appreciate your follow up. If you are looking for other topics.. you might want to couple wheel balancing with proper "wheel dressing" i.e. rough (corkscrew cool running) as opposed to fine granular shear and "feed speed". By the way did you get that kick butt finish on your vice bottom or was it lapped ??? Very impressive if it wasn't lapped.Warm regardsTom

[@oxtoolco]

+Tom Vitagliano Hi Tom, As we do more grinding videos we will talk about dressing and balancing. That finish is from Hermann Schmidt. It looks lapped to me but with those guys that might be how it comes off their grinders. Thanks for the comment. Cheers, Tom

[@OldIronShops]

OK if that is a bad setup for a indicator what would a good one look like? may some time you can do a quick discussion on the uses of indicators.

[@thething4763]

+Chris Anderson The stylus of the indicator should be perpendicular the the work being tested in relation to the pivot point of said stylus.. Check some instruction manuals for indicators for specific use of different types. Lets do some of the homework here people!

[@berockization]

+Chris Anderson The stylus should be as parallel (or tangential) as possible to the surface being indicated.... then the cosine error drops to zero. This isn't possible with most indicators on a larger, flat surface because the body of the indicator gets in the way.... Still, it is very seldom that a DTI is used to glean absolute measurements....

[@RambozoClown]

+b-rock It also depends on the indicator. Interapid calibrates to read true at 12° just because of the body interference issue. If used at 0° you have to multiply readings by 1.022.

[@juanrivero8]

+Chris Anderson The indicator -- whether a plunger or a finger -- should be at exactly 90 deg to the axis of measurement. If it is not, your indicator reading is not true. In fact it is off by the cosine of the angle between the indictor device and the axis being measured. The cosine of 90 deg is 1.0000... and the cos of 45 deg is about .71. First case your indicator is exactly correct, second case it is about 30% under. Beware, user, when you use a dial indicator to actually measure distances. Trigonometry is your friend, it better be because you can't escape it.

[@jcs6347]

+Chris Anderson I agree it would be very beneficial

[@Ujeb08]

Hey Tom, off subject but did I miss something? What became of the baby bullet vise assembly to be welded and finished?

[@theradarguy]

Hey Tom, Really great videos. You brought up something in part 1 about grinding round surfaces. I don't know about anyone else but I would really like to see a demo of that process.

[@rchopp]

Thanks Tom, I like these types of informative/educational videos. By the way what is the proper way to set an indicator? Thanks and hope you have a great 2016.

[@garyhouse4613]

Ha, 8 years after it was asked, I saw this. I operated a grinder for 20 years. Setting an indicator: about 5-8 degrees. Check its accuracy by setting up two gage blocks on the granite plate side by side, say a 120 and a130. The indicator should read exactly .010 difference between the two. If it doesn't, adjust the angle of the needle until it does. Interrapid indicators were especially good at this.

[@kengoddard2357]

Hey Tom, just wondering what type of bearings that type of machine uses, does the spindle ride on high quality versions of regular type bearings or do they use something more exotic ? Cheers, Ken

[@oxtoolco]

+Ken Goddard Hi Ken, The long axis runs on balls on hard flat ways and vees. The cross axis runs on rollers. The spindle uses matched pairs of angular contact bearings in a cartridge. Hope that helps. Thanks for the comment. Cheers, Tom

[@bcdesignco8013]

Another great video! There's a Wilton bullet vice just listed on CL in Benicia for $100. Thought I'd let you know. Seems like a good price! Thanks for all your content!

[@oxtoolco]

+BcDesignCo Hi Bc, Just what I need. Another vise. Better go check it out. Thanks for the comment. Cheers, Tom

[@robgerrits4097]

Nice video Tom, very clear explanation. But there are alway's guy's who want to put salt on the snail's tail.

[@robertkutz]

tom great info. HAPPY NEW YEAR.

[@stuarthardy4626]

Thanks for the video Tom Before I pose the question let me just say that I was qualified to change out grinding wheels and to use a grinder in the UK you had to hold a certificate to do the wheel change , but these were > 12 inch dia ones , the chip produced was the first thing that was shown to us Now the question do you balance the wheel on the arbour either with the weights or vibrating dust into the wheel , we had to balance , dress and rebalance , then demonstrate to the examiner that we could grind the part to spec ,I drew the the short straw and was allotted a 18 inch cylindrical grinder what a pain Stuart

[@allsortsofinterests1]

+Stuart Hardy You must elaborate about this technique of vibrating dust into the wheel. I did a quick search, but before I waste my time I would like to hear about it from a professional. Do you use a template to portion the dust on the wheel or am I imagining something completely different? Thanks, Mike

[@stuarthardy4626]

+allsortsofinterests first I am not a professional The method is primarily used by the manufacturer of the wheels they find the light segment and pile some of the material that the wheel was made from and vibrate it into the pores to get the wheel into spec , but it can be used when the weights will not get the wheel into balance , it's a bit old school We're I worked they had a large training budget and went OTT with our requests for training , so we took advantage of it, some of it was one on one Hope that helps Stuart

[@allsortsofinterests1]

Certainly! Thank you for the explanation.

[@garyhouse4613]

Absolutely no need to balance a 7 inch (or smaller) on these manual machines. Just ring it, dress it and go. "Ring"... tap wheel with something hard and listen for the "ring." Cracked wheels don't ring and they explode when ya turn the machine on.

[@RPWLKR1]

ok i got to ask when are we going to get back to the babby bullet?

[@328DaveGTS]

Thank you for all the work and thank you for the Video's and the hard work Happy New YearTom to you and your Family.

[@mattcurry29]

Excellent video Tom, Thank You Matt C.

[@ryangobie]

wow the surface finish on that vice!

[@w056007568]

A great extension to the first one on this topic, thanks.

[@patw52pb1]

Happy New Year!

[@daki222000]

Tom, Allways wondered why these surface grinders are totally hand operated, and not semi automated like for instance on a horizontal planer. Technically it is not difficult to add i figure.What is the reason, Accuracy?

[@bcbloc02]

+Flip de boer My Thompson grinder is hydraulic in both axis only the down feed is manual.

[@juanrivero8]

+Flip de boer In principle you could constuct a CAM surface grinder. I suspect there actually some out there but I don't know for sure because I have no interest in the subject. However, all the surface grinders I have seen on You-T are resurrected pre-CAM manual machines. The really difficult part of a CAM surface grinder would be measuring the Z-feed, which involves measuring roughness on the fly, which I at least do not know how to do. Laser interferometry? Very expensive, if maybe possible.

[@oxtoolco]

+Flip de boer Hi Flip, Like all machine tools there are a range of possibilities. From full manual to fully automatic. Us home shop guys tend to end up with the fully manual machines. Thanks for the comment. Cheers, Tom

[@joshua43214]

+Juan Rivero CAM?!? Plenty of small powered grinders out there. They use simple limit switches that slide on the side of the carriage, are positioned by the operator. Simple, extremely reliable, and much faster than CAM.

[@juanrivero8]

I stand corrected :)

[@castironcal4650]

Another great video, Thank You

[@vtstudio31]

Tom: i like that the bottom of your vice looks optically flat, you are getting to the point that it is all done with smoke and mirrors..

[@mimlomiani6949]

Thank you for sharing. I am From Iran/Persia and I tout I tell you where the origins of OK comes from ( well as far as we know :)) Oh is Oh and KEY in Farsi means when. In second WW Churchil was in Tehran together with some high ranking American and Russian Polotishens. Churchil was waiting for the chef of english embassy in Tehran to come and he didnt show up so he asked again and again where the man was and didnt get far with the answer. At some point the embassy chef comes in and the Iranian translater tells thim that churchil has asked for him couple of times and the man says OH, KEY ( oh when ) at the time he says that there was a news paper man who companied churchil every where hears that and he thinks it sounds nice together ( OH KEY=OK) and that is the Origins of the OK :). Please forgive my spelling. I do hope you find it interesting. That is anyway what I heard from my Grand father who was special driver for REZA SHAH every time the King was in Isfahan.

[@whatdoyouthinktodd]

At work we use KISS for the people that don't do the math. Todd CNC programming

[@tombellus8986]

Sort of like a little foreplay

[@Opinionator52]

Great video Tom! Thank you..... O,,,

[@kazwo]

what happens to your shop when you are gone forever

[@kazwo]

+jacktheripped can I join a newsletter or something?

[@1pcfred]

+kazwo The tool auction man usually shows up then.

[@MaDeuce80]

He will always be there.

[@MsTekfab]

Mmmm, Tom i have to disagree with you on the machine warm up, any precision machine needs warmed up especially the spindle bearings and imposing vertical thrust on bearings that aren't up to working temperature is not good working practice.

[@garyhouse4613]

Never operated a grinder that required warming up the bearings. I did this for twenty years, and never had an issue once with this matter. Just turn it on and go. The spindle bearings are a lot stronger than you think, and will do their job just fine cold or warm. Size and location issues are ALWAYS due to heat in the material being ground and wheel wear, NOT spindle temperature. It just doesn't enter the picture.

[@ASEBOR]

Happy New Year, I am your subscriber from Russia! A little more practice, please.

[@oxtoolco]

+Сергей Артёмов Greetings from the USA. Thanks for the comment. Cheers, Tom

[@johnc4352]

Hi Tom; I know it's not very important, but could you spend a moment on the pronunciation of the word "height". So many guys pronounce it " hi- th" not " hi- t" . I noticed you pronounced it hi- th and then corrected yourself and say it hi- t in this video. Thanks

[@1pcfred]

+John C The "h" is silent in height. But length, and width. both end in a "th" syllable. So saying height with "th" is not terribly fantastic really. I honestly think Tom does it as a joke. If Tom wants to say he'-I-th I'm fine with it really. No corrections needed.

[@johnc4352]

Thanks Paul, I have been proficient in the mechanics of the English language since the Eisenhower administration, that was not the aim of my question. In my interaction with machinists, many of them pronounce height with the th sound at the end. I am curious why and was seeking Tom's thoughts, if any on the subject.

[@1pcfred]

John C Well I put in my two cents. It is a colloquialism that stems from length, and width.

[@davecc0000]

"Do your homework." Look up the pronunciation in any of a number of online dictionaries. Simple to answer your own question. Why waste Tom's time?

[@1pcfred]

davecc0000 What question would that be? While you're wasting all of our time. Are you part of the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids?

[@Godshole]

Quite tired watching this and gently fading in and out to your voice I realize the audio sounds like church. Which would make you The Lord of Metal. Now I'm confused because I thought that Ozzy Osbourne was 'The Lord of Metal'. More coffee required I think.