Paris is Burning, the dark side

[@pedrofelipepamplona1944]

It’s funny what life does to you. I remember watching “Paris is Burning” and thinking of Octavia as the dreamy and hopeful one. Now looking at her in this clip made me realize how much she changed - not necessarily for better or worse, just different - to the point of not even sounding like the person she was when she was young. It is almost as if she turned into Dorian Corey in some ways. Wiser, more mature but also sad and in some ways even hopeless - which makes me think that part of maturing and growing up is indeed the acceptance of the darker, more depressing realities of life

[@KittyKarri]

True... as we grow older, we see how much the world is so cruel. We have to be wiser ti survive.

[@Jackeeypoos]

Damb that is total nail on the head there! I do agree I think Octavia sounded very full of optimism when Paris is burning was shot, then as she got older and seen how truly hard it was sonfunction as a trans woman navigating through life she just became more to the point and more thicker skinned , the argument to this is that they can feel as if Jenny was deceptive to them and parts of the film in their own way but at the same time if Paris is burning was never made we wouldn’t know any of these icons!

[@pedrofelipepamplona1944]

@@Jackeeypoos exactly !

[@jamietodd1675]

I can see their point of view however if it wasn't for the Documentary no one would know who Ocativa, Carmen, Candy Labejia etc was. All the negative things they are stating I didn't take that away from watching Paris Is Burning. As a gay teenager it changed my life because all my struggles were their struggles. For once in my life I didn't feel alone because I knew there were people like me in the world. I saw people like me living free and creating their own reality despite the negative outcomes from their decisions to be free. These amazing people in this film to me were heroes for freedom because of this film they all have been immortalized into culture icons. If wasn't for this film none of these people would've been known outside of NYC gay scene or the ballroom scene. People all over the world and the new generation know who these people are because of this film. It's January 2015 and I'm still on the Internet googling people from the film to see where they are today. There are forums and facebook pages etc dedicated to Paris is Burning and all the comments are from people of all ages, races, sexuality and cultures saying nothing but positive things and how much they love them. Even if you aren't gay you can relate to the struggle of being free and trying to be yourself in world that is constantly trying to force you to be something you're not. Their experiences in this film is universal thus everyone can relate to it on some level. Lets focus on the positivity that this film has become for the new generation and the many more to come.

[@ArtFromTheHeartFilms]

Jamie Todd Jamie Todd yes, people are recognized because of this film, but at what cost. Octavia and Willi Ninja were already traveling the world and where known. That it helped some people is also true, but at what cost? the ballroom community is still paying the price for it today, because people like you Jamie don't understand the whole film and the consequences, because of lack of education and knowledge about how this film affected this community. If you say this film is so great than how come not one member from the community can make a living doing it? They are continuously exploited by the celebrities and AIDS agencies, but no outsider would know a thing or two about this. They never ask the question, how does the ballroom community feel about this film. Don't they have a say about this? its about them and not about how you feel, it is selfish and irresponsible to brush off how the community feels about this film for your personal empowerment and freedom, on the backs of the ballroom community. This poor and selfish judgement is unfortunately another reason why the ballroom community with all the talents they have is still in the artistic ghetto, because of people like Jamie and Nancy, who don't get it and don't see the big picture.

[@jamietodd1675]

Art From The Heart Films bullshit, what did they expect that they were going to become financially well off for the rest of their life from one documentary? Actors, Producers, etc have to do multiple projects to become financially sound! As some one who works in the Entertainment industry I know this first hand. Moreover, Octavia and Willi may have been traveling back then but they wouldn't have never achieved such well known recognition on their own like that have procured from this film. Lets get real, their lives didn't come to a screeching halt because of this film. I'm sure whatever choices that they had made in life caused the "main" hindrances in them achieving whatever desired successes. These individuals are well loved by me and other people because we all could relate on some level to their lives. They live on because people like me have admiration for their struggle of validation. You're promoting victimization and negativity instead of celebrating the struggle. Ultimately the decisions that you make in life will be the final result of your journey and all of them are where they are because of those decisions not because of the film. You need to stop because you're being ridiculous.

[@ArtFromTheHeartFilms]

Jamie Todd If you want to base this film on its popularity outside the community you are right on, but unfortunately you continue to ignore how the ballroom community feels about this film. Its not about Willi's or Octavia's fame, its how Paris is Burning portrays this community (thieves, drug users and prostitutes). If professor White from NY University makes a statement and teaches in her classroom that Paris is Burning is an exploitative film, than you statement is nothing but an opinion, ignoring the facts on how it affects the entire community. Your statement is about you and how you benefited from this film, and clearly you don't give a damn how the community feels about this film and how it has been affecting this community ever since it was released. Your statement " You need to stop because you're being ridiculous" actually reflects on you, because my work is not only recognized at universities across the country and internationally by students using my work in their thesis and libraries, they also inviting me and pay me to lecture at universities such as Penn State, Oberlin, NYU and Yale. I received many awards from the ballroom community for my activism, including in January 2015 I received the "Keeping The Dream Alive" Martin Luther King Humanitarian Award from the straight Black community who has recognized me for my work. What did you receive for your statements you are making here? You can read more about this award , see link: wolfgangbuschawards2015.blogspot.com/. Next time do your research first before you make statements about a subject you know nothing about.

[@jamietodd1675]

Art From The Heart Films Again, you've created , as Carl Jung would define it,a case of group mystique participation for "victimization". Moreover, it's not about me it's about everyone LIKE ME that have watched this film. Moreover, if it wasn't for this film you wouldn't have a platform to promulgate "victimization". What's next reparations?. For some strange reason you're unable process the reality that these people sealed their own fates by their actions thus it had nothing to do with this film. I think you're more concerned with gooshing out your accolades and creating your alternate warped reality. Grant it if stereotypes were glorified in this movie then use this platform that you've created to prove them wrong concerning the people in the film. It's just that simple! I've lived the life so you and I know a lot of stuff that is said about certain segment of the gay community is true. It's the dark side of the gay journey. However, since you're acting as if that doesn't exist with in the "ballroom community" then please take upon yourself to re write history..

[@ArtFromTheHeartFilms]

Jamie Todd I did not say that those elements don't exist in the ballroom community or gay community, they exist in most communities including Wall street and the church for that matter. It is about how it is presented to the public and what your mission of this film is/was. If the purpose of Paris is Burning was to exploit and let the public know that this community is about thieves, prostitutes and drug users, and the voguing and other elements in the film are cute, than yes, this is a great film and deserves all its glories that you refer too. But for you to continue to ignore the damage this film has on the ballroom community is very unfortunate and is the reason why so many ballroom children are in the artistic ghetto, disenfranchised with little or no resources, because you continue to glamorize a movie that opens old wounds. Great job lady. At least we know that you are no help to us.

[@TOPOTWO]

I find the people in Paris is burning to be beautiful talented and creative

[@murtithinker7660]

Ballroom dancing is horrible. And why did they choose a difficult lifestyle?

[@bunnykandi69]

@@murtithinker7660 wow rude....

[@queenofhearts4169]

@@murtithinker7660 but yet you are here

[@andysimmons1842]

I felt that Paris is Burning was very humanizing.

[@maisade]

I am definitely conflicted by the documentary. As a straight female, I can’t even begin to imagine what it was like for the Black and Latino gay community, especially back then. And I won’t pretend that I know their struggle. TBH, I never felt any negative feelings about the cast or viewed them negatively. I saw a sea of fabulous individuals who managed to create a safe haven for themselves, and just wanted the opportunity to successful. I can’t fault them for that. But I understand their frustrations about being misrepresented, because certain human beings have a habit of twisting stories of survival into something criminal and negative. I don’t agree with breaking the law, but I also understand what NYC was like in the 80s. They had to do what they had to do. It was an eye-opening documentary, but I am glad these pioneers were able to at least tell their stories.

[@djdopesic]

All i know is that Carmen looks stunning! Octavia, may you rest in peace, mama, gorgeous till the end.

[@Gs-wu1rj]

this was filmed just a year before she died 🥺

[@TASconfidential]

The film didn't exploit anyone and the director didn't get rich of of it herself. The sad truth is that the ballroom scene is an underbelly sub-culture of the gay community and even other gays label "ball-queens", as crooks, violent queens who steal designer clothes and get into fights at clubs.... The ballroom scene made this negative image for themselves, without "Paris is Burning". People should watch the film and focus on the interviews with Dorian Corey and the guy with he military uniform. Those were two of the WISEST gay people I've ever heard speak in my life!!!

[@fetterkater7484]

yeah she made a name of herself, because she directed the film. She is far from famous though. And the commentor isn't saying that the film portrays the ballroom queens as violent and thieves, but that they created that image WITHOUT Paris is Burning

[@ldyreal]

TASconfidential #truth

[@mrlopez-pz7pu]

TASconfidential the film subjects here seem not to know that all the things they blame on Jenny Livingston were actually the fault of film distributors.

[@notthefather3919]

@2tonsolid you really need to stop with this "you werent there" bullshit. Were you? Nobody said every single person was those things. You're so defensive but the truth is a lot of them were thieves and hustlers. And all for ballroom designer labels.. You weren't there so how do you know they weren't?

[@aligaines8476]

The guy in the uniform was straight, had just got home, came to get his keys. Weird but true. And that's how the category was started. There's a interview with three of the men on here somewhere.

[@dulcieghost5812]

i'm glad paris is burning exists because it made me aware of all these wonderful performers and the impact they had not only on the lgbt community but on society as a whole BUT what i also took away from it was how awful it was that they never got the fame or even the recognition they deserved when they revolutionised popular culture, and now that i know they were exploited by the film-makers i'm even more heartbroken. so many straight people now love rupaul's drag race, etc. but know zero about this community that is the reason shows like that can exist. it would be brilliant if someone could find a way to pay proper tribute to them with respect and loyalty....

[@nycrockhistory]

very very well put.

[@eBrigid]

The people in this film, 27 years ago, changed my life, touched my heart, and Pepper in particular--that incredible voice is in my heart, forever. In my own city, I went out and discovered the Lady Chablis, and became her friend. I then went on to work in pageants and competitions for several years, we held Paris Is Burning nights, we created, we expressed, we grew, and if it weren't for this film, we would not have done that. We fell in LOVE with this film, with the constellation of stars in it, and most of all, our hearts and minds were opened to a new world brought to us through the camera of Jenny Livingston, because we found a place in space and time that we wanted to be a part of, small town misfits from all over this country and all over the world--the whole world--would go on to create their own 'Paris' by way of Harlem where we lived, physically, mentally, emotionally. I just cannot stress enough that I LOVE the people introduced to me by Paris Is Burning! Their voices and their stories are indelibly burned into my psyche, into my heart--it deeply hurts me that anyone would think otherwise! All that being said, if the people complaining here want to be mad at anyone, be mad at Madonna for what she did with Vogue. It is true, she took it and made millions, but don't be mad at the viewers who were changed by this film, don't be mad because we love the people in it. Go to any gay bar in any small town in the South or Midwest with a population of ten thousand people, and ask around--Paris Is Burning did more to change this world than you realize, look beyond your own community, and try to understand the impact it had in 1990 in changing lives.

[@olivelime9493]

Wait what about Madonna? Ah shit don’t tell me she did that same thing that Jenny Livingston did

[@shadelings]

@@olivelime9493 This movie has changed lives over the years while Madonna only capitalized on it for her own gain. So tell me, what terrible thing did Jennie Livingston do, exactly?

[@MFjaYWiLL]

Paris is Burning is one of the best films I’ve ever seen. Irregardless of it being based around the LGBT. Its one of the best documentaries and movies. Period

[@gunbuck7]

To quote Dorian Corey herself - "Oh yes, to this day a lot of the girls hate Miss Jennie, but that's just greed"! From: Paris Has Burned By JESSE GREEN Published: April 18, 1993 New York Times

[@gunbuck7]

Were you? Sorry but Corey was the wisest person in the whole movie, I trust what she says.

[@notthefather3919]

@2tonsolid 😂 "were you there?" Like that matters. And they never claimed to have been there. They literally quoted someone who was there and you think your question makes any sense.

[@notthefather3919]

@2tonsolid what's a laugh is you going around asking "were you there" to people who dont side with the people in this video to dismissing the opinion if someone who was there. Now that's a laugh.

[@labradude]

" dorian was happy with getting a sandwich for her "role" Were you there?

[@louisbyron]

Honey, if it wasn't for "Paris Is Burning", this video wouldn't exist and we wouldn't know that you exist! God Bless.

[@1blessedbrotha]

I agree also, it's because of this film that I found out that such a thing as the "Ball Competitions" even existed, so I am grateful, my favorite segment is "Realness" because it speaks to my reality as a brother who isn't feminine but shares the same orientation as all these other people. All these years I thought I was all alone, but thanks to Jenny Livingston now I know different.

[@lamyatpui]

@@besos4169 you suicided?

[@all4onw428]

@@1sadsexually2sadsexually54 you both seem crazy.

[@marizcona]

I was in that scene as a young gay male. All that was covered in the film was true and on point and not exploitive

[@nayirnolamaz]

@@desiree5236 I don't think they mean scene in that sense...

[@mariahyohannes]

Do you know the definition of exploitation???? For one she cut a lot of scenes to fit her narrative, there is footage here on KZbin that show all the deleted scenes, she edited a lot of the positive aspects of being trans or being a drag queen. Not only that she promised them a lot after she was done with the documentary but she gave them absolutely nothing nor were they paid for the film.

[@thegworlsarefighting]

Maybe because the director was a white woman they feel a way about that

[@PaiLunaHousehead]

Octavia (RIP) hit it right on the nose w that statement in the end.

[@1blessedbrotha]

this is why I remain in the closet, people like this who choose to treat me as an enemy instead of a comrade!

[@Scruffy_Talks]

ur gunna rot in that closet. get out , who carew what others say about u. its how u carry ur self... dont wait til ur 80 years old....ur not alone and we have by far come far enuff to come out ~ unless ur hiding and on the DL for reason of personal issues ....... if not just come out, thats not a good enough reason in 2017 to say thats why i stay in the closest... fuck those ppl..... i walk down the street every day with my head held high. im a good person and who ever doenst think so can eat my shit.

[@brittanybrown710]

@@Scruffy_Talks thats right boo tell that closet queeen that dl sissy in his head cares about what people that dont do shit have to say about u and allow them to control his life as a grown ass man,i know kids thats doing what they want and not giving a fuck and his grown ass got to hide who and what he is and like sad sad sad i know he cant be happy,cant be deep inside society tells him who he is is so embarassing that he should hide it and he listen lol he need a therapist fast

[@bluedasher74]

I'm confused, what was so bad about Paris Is Burning? It was an informative documentary for people who are not familiar with the ballroom scene. It gives you an idea of what that scene is like. Exactly what about the film was so offensive to these people?????

[@smithkelsey9293]

bluedasher74 If you find nothing wrong with thievery, prostitution, and running away from your problems; to each their own. I do admire the creativity of the older scene, but that's gone now.

[@ICONICPARIS]

Ronnie Smith well that was a way a life for some of them. It wasn't the main focus. People find shit to bitch about that isn't worth bitching about.

[@eroupopper]

Pierre Black also, we didnt know why some of the queens ran away from home.

[@morganolfursson2560]

Nothing, they just want money .

[@awesome1990s]

eroupopper didn't they explain in that many of the kids were kicked out for being gay. I think pepper and Dorian Corey explain it well in the documentary.

[@SChild5.]

The people in this documentary reached many people & changed their lives- & I'm sure they weren't looking to get rich off this one film. Octavia was right. The ball "community" should stop letting white strangers be the disembodied voice of their struggles. That way, the money can go to *them*. No middleman. It still doesn't change the fact that Jennie profited & they didn't.

[@SChild5.]

Swapmeet sheriff Don Knott expert You liked it *because* you're straight & don't know the struggles of LGB- & "especially" trans people. It's entertainment to you, but survival to many homeless trans & gay youth.

[@SChild5.]

2tonsolid Immortality didn't help them. Many are gone & were taken advantage of in this film. I said it once & I'll say this today. They weren't looking to get rich. But, Jennie got paid & many didn't. They were used just for the ball scene culture. Which is pathetic.

[@sarahportelli93]

S Child #5 it's common knowledge amongst documentary film makers and those studying it that it is unfeasible to pay subjects of a documentary, most major documentary makers actually advise against it as monetary exchange most often affects the response of the subject. when money is not exchanged between director and subject, the resulting documentary is generally more truthful. Paris is Burning cost $500,000 to make. It made $2 million total, of which quite a bit was spent on the film's marketing and other future projects. Jennie Livingston did actually give the main protagonists money as a "thank you" after it did so well. She has mentioned multiple times that after PIB's success the only difference in her life financially was that she was paying rent more regularly. She didn't become a millionaire. Most of the profits she earned where invested back into other projects. The sad truth is that quite a few of the people. the film were hopeful that this one obscure documentary made by a film student on a shoestring budget would be their call to fame (which in a way it was... albeit not in the way most of them hoped it would be)

[@SChild5.]

Sarah Portelli. But there you have it. She did make money & was able to sustain herself somehow, when many people in this film didn't. The real truth is that mainstream Americans prey on other cultures & subcultures to call it their own. This film is a prime example of that. They should tell their own story & stop letting others do it for them.

[@acedianPianist]

I'm assuming that this Sarah deleted a comment of her's that warranted this read to the ground. Actually, reading to the middle of your comment, I'm 110% certain she backed out of something. Which makes it frustrating to read your's out-of-context and it makes me ashamed that someone would cut out their own commentary from the 'conversation', because now I can't appreciate the full picture of what you're saying. But as for what I got from your comments - preach! Preach, preach, preach. Because at the end of the day, that's all we'll all have - the opportunity to document our own stories in our own words, "that way, no one else can fuck it up & get it wrong." Livingston is sadly part of the exploitation, but still herself exploited by the dog-eat-dog system and the lies of distributors trying to market Paris Is Burning at the time. All I can say is that I haven't heard of any of her other works, and the situation is too complex to demonize her, but I am in agreement that middlemen can take a hike.

[@laviaslavic1]

It really comes down to money to why the cast are whining however I'm sure if they made tons of money they wouldn't be complaining. Jenny Livingston's film humanized the drag and transgender community and gave them exposure to the outside world. She always mentioned in interviews how she had to beg a handful of gov't asst programs for money to fund the film which took a handful of years for her to gather to make it happen. Obviously back then they didn't think they were being exploited but were thinking exposure and fierceness.

[@laphatty1]

True and they didn't get much some not at all

[@1258za]

At least they could of did provide meals for them or some resources and 40bucks from time to time

[@terryyoung316]

Thats kind of the whole point. If they HAD been compensated, there would be no issue. But they were not. She misled them and told them that she was only doing a student film for which she would not be paid.

[@commonsense3038]

laviaslavic1 People of color are always associated with deviance and public assistance abuse before “Patty Girls”. Check yourself hunny. I’m sure Ms. Livingston saw them as disposable.

[@tutterstan]

wtf is going in the comments. people from paris is burning: this was exploitative y’all: yeah? well it benefited ME and I liked it soooo...

[@princessamani]

right lol

[@PungiFungi]

Some people were pissed because the film made them "famous" but not rich.

[@MH-zy6tc]

That’s the show /business. Sadly They were the show. Jenny Livingston and her constituents were the business

[@itsokitsok5020]

They're not telling the truth I know I was there from the late seventies all away up into the early nineties! What Miss Jennie portray really WAS the reality of our lives back then! You cannot put the culture of where our lives are at today without acknowledgingly not only the good but the unfortunate and the ugly things that transpired. All of that was important for us to get to where we are today! Yes there were gay people who work legitimate jobs, (Myself included) however a great many of those children in those houses were prostitutes, were thieves, were homeless, And it wasn't their fault in most cases because they were only children discard to the streets by the a caregivers simply for being gay! You can drive down Westside highway in New York City from Christopher street all the way up to little West 12th street and you will see them walking the street trying to turn tricks in cars at 2 o'clock in the morning or go sleep on the piers because they had no money to rent a hotel Room or go to the local all night grocery store and steal some food product! So now they trying to deny that this was our reality especially those children of the house of Ebony,Dupree, Lawong, LABEIJA!... Really? About the only house that was not involved in these activities was Willi Ninja house! As artful as the dance move's of vogue was back then it had become so toxic between the fighting and violence and slicing/stabbing each other that the nightclubs would not allow them to VOGUE in their establishment anymore, IT WAS BANNED! but they don't wanna bring that up! They can talk all that nonsense to the rest of you people of social media because you weren't there, but I who went by the name of "Pepsi" was there! And Miss Janine got it pretty much spot on right for that time period although it has changed for the better today! To deny what the reality was back then for a great many of us would be like denying that slavery ever existed! You just can't sweep the ugly parts of our lives under the rug or chances are it will happen again!🤔

[@WhateverA]

Thanks for that in depth comment, I joined the scene in 2019, a lot has changed for the better however I have heard the stories of the vicious fights too

[@itsokitsok5020]

@@WhateverA I'm sorry took a year I just seen your comment, But you're welcome and I stand by what I said 100% and it is now December 14th the the year 2022 and yes I am still alive and well! What Jenny Livingston portrait of our lives at that particular time was the reality of what it was! Those queens (Who are unfortunately dead now except maybe 1 or 2 and myself) are lying through their teeth we call them shady and a lot of the children's seedy, always trying to get something for nothing!🤷‍♂️

[@Libra_Strings]

The one thing no one said they didn’t like, was the portrayal of AIDS/HIV being a gay/Black/Latino disease. That’s the only part that pushed the wrong thought process .

[@laylette4017]

The film changed my life tremendously actually. It showed me what my black/brown trans sisters and black/brown brothers had (and some still do) go through on the daily. Them being pushed into sex-work because nobody would hire them if they didn't pass. That was the whole point of ballroom. To perform an illusion, a fantasy, of passing as an ordinary heteronormative person. I do believe they should have gotten better credit but I also believe many of the performers in the documentary didn't realize they were probably never going to get to the points they wanted to in life. A horrible irony. If your life was so unfair, wouldn't you be angry too?

[@xmanxavier77]

It was so.profound what Octavia said at the end it's like that in the gay community it sad tho

[@muttmcmuttly3130]

For a film maker this is some bad editing

[@Chillmax]

You can't stop these people feeling like this about the film if they were in it, that's how they feel, but, this is ridiculous. Where did they get the impression a doc/ film was going to change their lives, it's a documentary, that's it; if they couldn't capitalise on it, that's their issue, not PIB's fault. It's a shame that they're beating the film with a stick and blaming it for their troubles, when they need to focus on other issues in their lives to be happier. I loved it, it changed how I thought about certain things and I wish them all the luck & happiness x

[@unissalumsden9328]

Chillmax I bet that white lady got paid!

[@unissalumsden9328]

Sam Houston I white lady got paid now you grow up!

[@notthefather3919]

@@unissalumsden9328 she didn't. But even if she did..so what. Documentaries aren't designed for profit. They document lives of people or animals, to tell real stories. Truth is their lives were fucked up beforehand and they didn't get rich as they expected.

[@a_lethe_ion]

@Sam Houston well yeah, but the movie wouldn't exist without the people. she should've paid royalties. like i get not paying people for being in a documentary, that invites abusie, like people learning wat to say to get a role to get paid. it would make it unauthentic, pretend. but afterwards f the project makes in money, it should be evenly split between all people who work on it - paid in a percentage like % of material made (time)+ % of material used,, like 10 house made, 5 used, , look how many people worked how long.. like having one person get all he money that only exist because people participated.. I mean you wouldn't make 3,5 million in the 80 just with jennies face in front of a white wall, would ya?people would die of boredom.

[@cimonegriffin1775]

im sure the people who starred in " paris is burning" were under some assumption that they would some benefit financially from the documentary, the sacrifices that were made , people died, people had family and love ones even children that could have benefited from some of the proceeds, a percentage in the films distribution could have supported and made life some what better for those in certain house's, it is true that we may never have known about an xtravaganza etc or any of the house's members if it wasnt for the film...i agree...however there wouldnt be a film about the lbgt communities if there wasnt an lgbt culture in the first place, their not whining or crying about it, its just they wanted a piece of the pie also, whats the point of being real for a reality show/ documentary if u cant reap some of the benefits of it financially, cmon people dont be so gullable as to think they dont deserve anyyyyything monetarily?? smh shame on u but u can damn well bet the cast of real house wives of beverly hills gets a check and rhoa etc, not to mention their reality ( house wives franchise) is not even real, with that being said i am glad that the film was made, and i respect all the infamous legends, who even knew that there was such a life perhaps p.i.b was bigger than the characters them selves r.i.p and be blessed, this film should make u love ur neighbor ( lbgt community) not argue, there was an epidemic that swept through like a thief and stole much more than $$$$, those people had to die so that u may live ( aids) think about it, there is no cure however research and funding has made it so that those who suffer from this plague may live and function in life without a ready, get set and die way of living, shame on u for arguing!

[@a_lethe_ion]

paying royalties should be the expectation, not the exception

[@purplehazee13]

beautiful comment, thank you

[@ciarawashington1120]

Jenny Livingston did exploit the community but every film has a narrative. She captured the essence of part of the ballroom scene & revealed an uncomfortable truth. It wasn't scripted. It was dark & sad but it was authentic & painfully real.

[@BB-or8gi]

Strengthen your victim identities people! Don’t try to better your circumstances - just whine and complain! What a disappointment to the legacy that is PIB

[@rickyparrilla2426]

First of all Jenny Livingston did not put a gun to anyone's head and forced them to stand and talk in front of the cameras. What I believed happened was when the film came out, people who were in it saw how seedy and nasty it looked. An actually that's how it looked at that moment in the 1980's. The piers down Christopher street were dirty. The balls were held in Harlem in the beginning and Harlem was not a nice safe place to live like it is today in 2019. So the ballrooms looked seedy in the film and they were. The balls were going on in the middle of the night when the rest of the city was sleeping. When I saw Paris is Burning I was glad I was not filmed in the Documentary and I was there during most of those recordings. During the Documentary Ms Livingston is not narrating. It is actually people from the Ball scene. Unfortunately we have lost a lot of them sadly to say due to the outbreak of aids. Not all but a large number of them. During that time there was a lot of drug use because that's how we kept ourselves awake. I remember going clubbing and then to a ball in Harlem. I will be honest and say there was fun and excitement in being a part of it but it was not my life and I didn't take it seriously like most ball queens did. A large amount of those gay kids came from broken homes. I was lucky I had a home and a family that loved me and loves me still. I felt sorry for some of my acquaintances because some didn't have a home to go to. Today the Ballroom scene has gotten better. The balls are actually thrown in nice clubs and they draw huge crowds. So when you see a video of a ball today there completely different from the ones in Paris is Burning and they compliment the performers.

[@jcapril1]

This is such a disjointed video. People don't have a really coherent critique to offer. You say you were exploited, but you were so anxious to appear on camera and be seen when the filming was happening, weren't you? I've seen how it is when a film is being made. People will kiss the director's ass to appear in the film, because they want to get their name and face up on the big screen. Miss Extravaganza says that she got nothing from being in the film. It's a DOCUMENTARY, miss. Not a feature film. A documentary. Nobody gets rich off documentaries, most people who appear in documentaries don't get paid. It doesn't work that way, plus Paris Is Burning was and is important to many queer folk, but the rest of the world doesn't care. It didn't burn up the box office. It made the film festival circuit because it's a great documentary, but it didn't do great at the box office. It did however, make a few people legends. And I'm not just talking about legends within the 5 little burroughs of NYC, I'm talking known and talked about all over the country. All because of this one documentary. Vain and exhibiitionistic as some of these ball folks are, they should have been happy about that, but instead you're complaining that Livingston as a filmmaker somehow owes y'all. The one gentlemen says the brochures said it was about welfare recipients, and etcetera. Yes, that is offensive, but guess what? Hardly anybody saw the damned brochures. People saw the movie though, and the movie painted a very compassionate picture of a community that was oppressed but fierce and very creative. And then we see all this pissing and moaning about the documentary. This shit is TIRESOME. The ballroom folks seem like an amazing community, just have a little perspective and humility, please. Peace to you all.

[@EmilyLapara-Hebert]

jcapril1 I completely agree. And if you watch this video and others, the only people who were featured in the film that are complaining are the same ones who constantly talked about money and fame throughout the film. That's all some of them were after to begin with.

[@besos4169]

shut up bitch

[@1sadsexually2sadsexually54]

Paloma Rufete Grow the fuck up you fucking idiot, You gonna call them a racist too because you dont like what they said, you dumbfuck?

[@vsmith9710]

This film has had such an impact on culture … its cannot be understated.

[@BettyH4rley]

I don't understand why they feel that 'Paris is Burning' didn't do anything for them or the LGBTQ community. First off, its not a movie (requires a script), its a documentary. Second, did they expect to become huge stars after that? IDK, I feel they are a bit bitter. That Documentary was amazing and shed a light on them and the ball culture. If it wasn't for that documentary, no one would know who these ppl are.

[@scepticrat]

The simple fact is that is no one side to ANY story, there is no SINGLE truth, just truths. Except that statement. Seriously, though, I understand the desire to protect something (anything: a movie, a movement, an idea) that one loves very dearly. If something means a great deal to me I may be tempted to try and control how others receive and experience it, so that they see it my way. But life is more complicated, and powerful, than that. Professor Winters seems to go past exposing basic misinformation; she seems intent on controlling her younger students' experience so that it is HER experience. But they have the right to experience it now, in their historical context, which includes Paris is Burning as well as several decades of other events. Ballroom culture is emblematic of the profoundly vital, dynamic diversity of life. It's so much more than any one person's experience or definition of it. Then again, straight white male here, so maybe I know nothing.

[@saradean6592]

wow i had no idea thank you for bringing this to light for those who didnt already know. its so important to support and uphold what the ballroom community is wanting and saying abt their own community. im saddened that this has had such a negative impact on the community...i didnt realize it at the time bc i viewed it with my own lense but i see now how the depiction can be very damaging, esp knowing that the production crew were all outsiders...i hope the series pose is helping to change that damaging perception "paris is burning" created and hopefully people in the ballroom community feel diferently abt that one but id love to hear opinions on that. thank you again for sharing.

[@yoboi01]

wow, totally what I wasn't expecting. I have to admit, I was a Lil defensive at first because the 1 thing that I took from Paris is burning was that these people are real, and we all can connect with them on some level but now that I'm listening to them in this interview, I can see how they were exploited. and Octavia was right on point !! I will be recognizing her quotes on Transgendered. God bless her in heaven

[@notthefather3919]

Exploited? How?

[@daisyrandone7112]

not to disrespect but octavia looked so much more feminine without all that plastic surgery

[@monicalamb4life461]

Daisy Randone I know see alot of the girls back them got pumped with silicon and in time it hardens and shifts cause all kinds of problems but still octavia was still pretty!

[@Itbmurr1]

Daisy Randone she probably had cancer around this time and was going through chemotherapy treatments.

[@joeyrio1110]

Jose Extravaganza was totally a backup dancer for Madonna in the 90's.

[@strobe155]

+Jose Delrios Madonna can't afford new pearls !!!

[@joeyrio1110]

Drake Patton What?

[@crystalreed4052]

He was phenomenal!!!

[@gerryowen4200]

No Hope For Humanity reference for truth or dare

[@AnthonyAvery]

And he got screwed again by another white woman.

[@PhillyNonSequitur]

Thanks for posting this. I had no idea. I used to promote this film because I thought it celebrated an underrepresented community. I had no idea the ball community didn't receive a cent for it. I suppose there is an upside in that LGBT youth who watched the film got to see that there are people out in the world just like them. We can't downplay the importance of representation.

[@mk94194]

The movie was supposed to paint a picture of New York's LGBT underground scene at the time, which it did very successfully because Ball culture is still being referenced today by both gay and straight people in pop culture. There was no way the Ball community could benefit financially from a documentary. Some of their stories were heard ,though, and some of the main characters were immortalized and Ball culture, with its good and bad, was introduced in a more proper way, when it was being ripped off by mainstream artists (singers, designers etc) without ever given any credit.

[@jackstory1060]

'ball community didn't receive a cent for it." and why should have they? They are supposed to be thankful for having being exposed to the world without having to get paid for it. It is a documentary, not a feature with a selected cast. Now, to tell the whole truth a few members of the cast were paid. they divided themselves 40000 which in money from the 1980s meant a large sum.

[@princessofpigs]

They would have been fine if they made a lot of money. For some she asked them to sign contracts but they choose not too. I think unfortunately a lack of education meant some of the participants thought that the documentary would portray them as a glamours fantasy. _Even though Jenny literally told them it would not_ . LaBeija said in an interview Jenny gave them contracts to sign but they didn't bother because they just wanted to be famous. She had fully explained why they should and they still choose not to. Venus for example was talking about where she lived to Livingston when they weren't filming but Livingston could physically see that what she was saying was not true. I think these queens were all in terrible situations and they wanted someone to blame. It's unfair to her, it's like when you see a sign not to tress-pass and then you tress-pass and the cops come but you tell them it's a free country. A complete disconnect from reality so you don't have to take responsibility for anything.

[@WhateverA]

There are no sources for what you said about Venus you lier

[@princessofpigs]

@@WhateverA I don’t understand, she filmed in Livingston. Livingston was not a nice place to live at all in the late 80’s. You can see her walking along the beach like wouldn’t the movie be a source?

[@mirandayo3039]

I believe that anything that shows all sides of our society has value. All the detractors did not have the courage to create anything to show the same in their way so take several seats.

[@williesmith6281]

How can you be helped if you have no indication of helping yourself .Being's tears to my eye's .Like a lightbulb had went off inside my head.

[@avionlegend5695]

Octavia St.Laurent hit it on the nail with that quote!

[@alekzandrat4455]

If anyone would like to read a thoughtful critique on paris is burning, read "Is Paris Burning?" by bell hooks

[@jamesdean1034]

Nothing by Belle Hooks is anything but a mindless polemic.

[@shanikabradley2870]

It's a shame that you all are trying to bash that movie there is nothing wrong with that movie and if you was looking to get paid honey I'm sure there was I'm sure there was opportunities for y'all to get paid stop trying to blame the film and the director for your mistakes I think the film was a positive film and I think the director did a good job hell she didn't get any money out of it so if you was looking for opportunities honey you should have made it for yourself blame yourself not the movie

[@Kai-zc3ze]

Octavia is just mad cause nobody wanted her as a model. There's a million beautiful faces!!!! What makes u special???!!!

[@itsaaronlolz]

Kai true, she was immortalized in that films absolutely gorgeous in her prime. Such a shame that she became jaded and bitter later in life. She is one of my inspirations, just seeing her audition for high fashion gigs like Dior was amazing. So much potential, I’m glad that I had people such as herself to pave a path to what we have now.

[@monicalamb4life461]

Kai respect octavia !

[@laprincesa3608]

Kai because she’s one of the more beautiful people who were never given the chance, had she been cisgender and light skin with the same face the modelling industry would have loved her

[@tangemclemore7205]

Kai cuz she was born male and looks better than your hatin ass

[@notthefather3919]

@@tangemclemore7205 you have the nerve to call someone a hater with that nasty and superficial comment. She looked how she looked and where did it get her?

[@Charlie_Loves]

Obviously people prefer taking hard stances rather than admiring perspective for what it is. It’s sad how over simplified we’ve made problems.

[@jamilagirl22]

Paris is burning was a very important documentary i never heard of the ball scene before i saw this at the theater in Detroit in 1991 it let me know i was not alone . now when I watch its a concern sadness about this movie that i didn't pay attention to before . ocativa made some good points about trans community bless her soul.

[@dsb188]

I was not surprised to hear all of the stuff Jenny pulled. Its funny how other gay people are bashing the cast saying they are "jealous queens" etc. People seem to justify people being exploited for the sake of their own pleasure. Its pathetic.

[@mrlopez-pz7pu]

But Jenny really didn't "pull" anything - much of the bad things, such as the comment about the film advertised as being about prostitutes, etc, did not come from her, but from distributors. Why everyone thinks Jenny made a trillion dollars off of the documentary is beyond me...she didn't even have enough money to give it proper titles or even end credits. She had to go to distributors for it.

[@amityville768]

PIB is entirely narrated by the ball culture insiders themselves . the white women didnt even say anything . they offer the mic entirely to the community .

[@JohnRogerMoler]

YES OCTAVIA! powerful words elegantly started! u need to speak more! u totally drew me in. keep WERQ'n it. u are so beautiful outside and stunning on the inside! wishing you many blessings!

[@EgyptParis]

Where can I find original interview?

[@itsokitsok5020]

Sweetie a lot of that was left on the cutting Room floor. I try not to think too much about those early days of 1981 through 86. Mrs Livingston actually started filming us in 1985 even though the movie would not be release until 1990. I know because I'm one of the few people that are left alive today. My dear departed friend Octavia had it right, We were not out to be trend sitters, if anything we were just trying to survive, We thought this documentary that Mrs Livingston was going to make it actually to PBS and the CBS NEWS and maybe then the city will have to do something about the situation we were in after all most of us was under the age of 18 we were childrens. So don't believe the hype, this nonsense that we set out to make a statement for the gay and lesbian community just not true, we was just trying to survive one day at a time.

[@Antny.25]

@@itsokitsok5020 💖💖💖💖

[@WILLIAMCHANEL]

I'm not trying be shady, but what does Jose have to do with Paris is Burning? Jose was an Extrava who vogued down on Junior Vasquez's night at the Sound Factory and then became famous for... ummmmm, being a backup dancer for Madonna. Are they mad at that child, too? Because Madonna exploited/appropriated vogue and turnt MANY more coins than Jennie Livingston did (not that Jennie came correct when she made her movie--I'm not speaking on that). I know Jose also walked the New Way category at balls, so I'm not saying he was just a club girl. But didn't Jose participate in the Latex Ball? I think mostly I'm just trying to understand exactly what the captions in this clip have to do with what the people interviewed in it are actually saying. There seems to be a disconnect here. (And to be clear: Octavia, Carmen, and Jose are obv ICONS, and I live for them. There is never a bad word in my mouth for Octavia! And I do personally believe that Paris is Burning is at once a very important, effective film that changed the World for the better, and also exploitative of the people it depicts. I believe both of these things to be true.)

[@gerryowen4200]

WILLIAMCHANEL both women immortalized it which is why it is around and worldwide today. Madonna wrote a classic song about it while promoting the gay community...let not forget that...she didn’t have too...these things are about culture and moving things forward. I’m sure if these people could of moneytised it they would....it’s about the impact and inspiration they had on people for generations... appropriation is. Abuzz word to target whites.

[@LadyBloodyWrists]

Madonna is bisexual, so...

[@nasheeanjel9967]

like any form of media ur words and sentiments may be manipulated. the only way u can usurp that is to have written in the contract that u must view and approve the final cut or financial penalties will be assessed of x amount per occurrence, whether the film makes money or not. i think it's highly unrealistic, but that's the way u have standing. i saw the film after mama ru's recommendation and liked it and found it informative. i witnessed prostitution, lying, jealousy, thievery, untreated medical and mental disease, poverty, desperation, pain, love, creativity, art, maturity, and community. sorta like everyday life. it's up to u to do what u will with the exposure. i don't think for one second that ppl that thought well of the gay/trans/ball community began thinking negatively due to the film. as for the pay, if u were to be compensated a flat fee or as a percentage of proceeds or profit, u should have been, plain and simple.

[@tequilapapii5936]

In 2021 its so good to see & have so many transgender woman and men working together, & fighting for something bigger TOGETHER.. in rebuttal to Octavia’s closing comments.

[@rioboy13]

Well, what i'd like to know is HOW COME tv shows like "DYNASTY, and "THE COLBYS" and many WHITE model's names were dropped during the film, yet NOBODY seemed to say a word about...BEVERLY JOHNSON? IMAN? or VANESSA WILLIAMS? or NAOMI CAMPBELL? or mention "THE COSBY SHOW" why must we look ONLY at white america for inspiration? Why are our black and latino supermodels go unmentioned? Don't they exist?

[@TheeCoachg]

rioboy13 Iman WAS mentioned when Peppa La Beija said that’s who the children want to look like now. Naomi Campbell was not even a discovered model yet,let alone the icon she is now. Cosby show had no relation to them whatsoever and was just as fictitious as Dynasty. You seem to miss the ENTIRE point of the Ballroom Scene & what they were conveying. The Rich White Woman by American standards is the crime of the crop,she is the highest most celebrated,she can amass anything she wants & never have to lift a finger. For these gay & trans youth,they will never know Thats like. They will never see the privilege and opulence that Alexis Colby does and for those few minutes on that ballroom floor they can be the most supreme,celebrated being. It has nothing to do with hating black ppl at all,its about being born into and living in struggle but in the fantasy world you can whoever you want. I’m so sick of black folks dictating who we have can and cannot admire,that shit is dumb & exhausting.

[@aligaines8476]

And if you didn't know, many queens that are no longer with us, used to teach models to walk.

[@ArtFromTheHeartFilms]

The the House Ball community protest, boycott the Latex Ball 2013

[@eroupopper]

Art From The Heart Films why don't you make your own documentary. Get your story out there for everyone to hear and see.

[@yaturkeyneck7130]

Sorry for being ignorant. But I'm asking so I can wise up; I get the issue with Paris is Burning and Jenny, but what does the Latex Ball have to do with exploitation and misrepresentation? Thanks.

[@Indigo_Boi757]

I understand their plight 100%. Thy each knew their worth as beautiful, talented creators of art and culture, and when someone said "movie" they thought this was going to be it. The golden ticket. That someone, somewhere, in a position of power would see them and make a call. Fashion, art, models, music, Hollywood, dance, Broadway, there were so many industries that every one of the cast could’ve easily stepped into and made their mark. But instead, once PIB presented them to the world they were referred to as whores and junkies and their artistic property and creations appropriated, replicated or outright stolen. I empathise and feel their pain.

[@chanj1950]

To someone like me, who knows nothing about the House Ball Community I have big respect from seeing Paris is burning. I wonder how the houses feel about Pose.

[@shortstaycarpark7171]

I watched the documentary recently. I don't get exploitation from it.. I get exploration. Of course it's only a peek into the scene, but without it a lot of people wouldn't have even this glimpse of it.. and I for one feel privileged that I was allowed to see their lives and hear their story. Fuck money, you can't take that with you.. the legacy they all left in P.I.B is priceless.

[@tequilapapii5936]

The cast saw it as dark but as a gay viewer i saw it as so amazing , & beautiful to see vulnerability. Feelings that i myself have felt, being publicized. But i do get both parts.

[@vamptina]

thankyou for this video even though im 4 years late. guess its never too late to ignore what we always tend to ignore so we could feel better and heroic at times.

[@destineydevereux4722]

Very upsetting to see these people trashing this documentary,,, I guess they thought it would turn them into wealthy superstars,,, they're all dead now, but sad they developed that attitude,,, I think they were fortunate to have participated in a major piece of lgbtq history.....

[@Gs-wu1rj]

carmen is very much alive

[@alexajones2331]

Octavia and Carmen look so so different omg

[@Gs-wu1rj]

2008" the last year octavia was alive she was battling cancer

[@adrina911]

The movie was released in Box offices and made supposedly millions. I think Jennie Livingston got paid!

[@smithkelsey9293]

Octavia was a person who spoke facts.

[@Keeng_Aman_Duh]

I'm sorry but I look at Paris is Burning as a documentary about gay people trying to survive. No matter how she edit the movie or promoted it .....she still recorded reality. It's funny how we can all see the same thing but the perception is different for example the comments below. She put it out there no matter how a person wants to look at it she still put it out there for it to get attention and people talking and taking notice. Let's focus on the good things we can take away instead of the negative., now, the fact of the matter is she was wrong for not giving all of them the opportunity 2 receive royalties from the movie and that's a fact.

[@amityville768]

the director and the all white crew didnt even spoke a word in PIB. It wasnt nuanced or angled in any way. The mic was entirely on the ballroom community and the stories told are entirely from their perspective

[@stopthelies4249]

She did nothing more then raped the culture that’s why I wasn’t in it. I didn’t trust her when I was approached and did not want her using my image has she been black and or Latino and openly gay I might have felt differently another Ryan Murphy. Their a lot of people who or bigger legends in the gay community they didn’t appear in that film

[@focusonu9668]

What happened to the 💰? Livingston got paid and didnt share the money. I would feel exploited.

[@harraj516]

The problem seems to be more BEHIND the scenes.

[@Jay-sk1gx]

If it was not for that documentary I would not know who any of you are. All that talent and beauty was admired and was all I got from the film, I did not see "The dark side", it was a clear light on the ball room scene and bought a lot of attention to it. Perhaps they did not benefit from it finachially, but at the end of the day it's a documentary not titanic and this film did elevate their "Fame". God bless

[@XxLilRihannaFanxX]

people in the comments don't understand ...they literally profited off their story and trauma. yes the documentary was good, but they did nothing to help the ppl in it.

[@dannachristians5673]

So because of shady stuff that happened with advertisements of the film. I don’t think it should really raise an issue nor will it ever. I thought it was great.

[@faustuskrauss6457]

Being there at that time, going to balls, I knew most of the queens back then. They wanted attention. Lots of it. And they wanted acceptance. They were shunned from a world that either laughed at them (they were not taken serious) or hated. Especially by people that they thought they could win over. Now when Jeannette Livingston did this documentary, they finally had some doors open. Maybe not much as they wanted but it open some doors for them. Willie ninja for example. And since I knew most of them, I’ll tell you this, they were not angels. They did a lot of evil things to each other.

[@cosmo5599]

I understand Ball Culture by Madonna's vogue, then Paris is Burning. But I am far away from American, I could not understand and experience the real thing. It is a problem.

[@gabriellebernard198]

One wonders if the bitterness of some the people in the film is because they didnt have

[@ShesSarahNicole]

Wowwww I've had an honor To had grow up with these amazing icons octavius saint-laurent, Carmen extravaganza, Jennifer legend, And many other icons and legends As I am a featured extra Actress on the new hit Tv series #pose I have seen the good the badd and indifference in all of it. I grew up in we lived it . And we thank you

[@Zapp33311]

At 2:13 what the hell is a Momato? Is that a made up word?😣

[@toucheaulait892]

I love Paris is Burning and I felt it humanized the people they appeared in it. I feel such a connection to it. I really don't understand this whole "exploitation" thing cuz documentaries are known for not being lucrative and people that appear in it aren't usually compensated. I remember reading something about the cast being upset because they thought it was going to make them famous (and rich) in the way that precieved fame. Now did Jennie Livingston lie to them about compensation? I have a complete different view of Paris is Burning than the negative view people in this video are expressing. I mean damn! Where is this coming from? 🤣

[@dreamingtree6093]

The film was a masterpiece and always will be.

[@myqueenimagivemydumassopin6841]

Carmen looks EXACTLY like a woman....no surgeries, none...all natural....

[@blacklightning298]

Excuse me.!, that's not the impression I got from watching it. Everyone seem happy.. It alway interfering straights..

[@mikehunt4197]

the shade..

[@surferasianboi]

This ball is bouncing up and down! Im getting dizzy! Bye felicia!

[@notthefather3919]

Marginalizng? There's always somebody crying and whining.

[@ArtFromTheHeartFilms]

you don't have to be a ballroom historian to know how it links together.

[@dustintelefoni2506]

This why you need to watch ballroomthrowbacks

[@ANGEL-me6ub]

Omg seeing octavia today is crazy

[@Gs-wu1rj]

today? This was filmed in 2008' a year before she lost her battle to cancer

[@morganolfursson2560]

In other words they just want money . Got it . Very disappointing .

[@JudgeHill]

wow - what sour grapes

[@katmorgo1892]

Film I felt like I had found my people of course I am Caucasian so I do have privilege I think many things can be both good and bad I think this Film sharedMany incredible people to the general audience I’m sorry that the participants felt exploited they deserve the best in life

[@indiahaze2197]

Wow!!!! 😍😍😍😍😍 Why am I just now seeing this???

[@ginnylove3747]

Thank you for the site. You should lead with this & the responses & reviews would be better received. I will check your other video & get back to you on my opinion.

[@smithkelsey9293]

It is what is was,..thats what most of them were; and they confessed it.

[@rudihendricks757]

That just a bunch of people pissed because they aren't featured in the movie

[@nycrockhistory]

these people are right on, thank you for telling the truth about this exploitative film.

[@ArtFromTheHeartFilms]

just show us one document to back up your lie please.

[@robertlee467]

I want to marry that fairy Jose lol

[@ArtFromTheHeartFilms]

Boycott the Latex Ball 2013

[@Kai-zc3ze]

These are just a bunch of old tired queens who are pressed cause ain't nobody checking for them anymore 🙄😒

[@mauricethomas2252]

Kai BUT PAID THE WAY FOR UR SNOTTY WET BEHIND THE EARS ASS

[@ArtFromTheHeartFilms]

Jose Mil opened a KZbin account only so he can slander respected members from the community. When you go to his KZbin page its nothing but blank. Just saying.