World of Warcraft Hit Rock Bottom. | Asmongold Reacts to Bellular

WoW hit rock bottom.
Original Video by Bellular: • World of Warcraft Hit ...
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#Asmongold

[@Aznromeo]

Everytime I feel like reinstalling WoW, I remind myself to go watch Asmongold's latest video covering WoW and I start making good choices again

[@iKamando]

Only classic is worth playing. Never played too much in OG so now im playing through with some friends and making friends in the community. Good times but I dont think ill continue playing after WotLK.

[@chanceallensworth178]

I dont even know how to play retail.

[@mootontv2388]

Not like you were even a good WoW player in the first place. Probably only played pet battles you casual hackjob

[@Dannyvgeemen]

I reinstalled a week ago. I'm so hooked right now. Its amazing that after 1 year of not playing my fingers remember everything. Muscle memory is real.

[@madlinkers8595]

@@iKamando not even classic stop with the copium

[@Lithium_82]

25% actual boss encounter time, 47 mandatory apps required to effectively raid and then good luck finding a group of folks that raid when you're available.

[@Lithium_82]

@@blazedehart2748 Addons

[@jaseseperta6258]

@@koatam something a new player knows nothing about

[@Qvik_]

I bet it's the heroic at best, mostly norm players crying about the addons, and they don't even need any most of the time, they just use it because they want to optimize it. It is entirely possible to do it with no addons, heroic is 100% possible. Mythic maybe not in some cases. It's actually funny when people who optimize the fun out of their turbo casual content complain about shit. You did it. Not anyone else

[@DeosPraetorian]

@@Lewtable k

[@SeedlingNL]

@@CrazyLife2112 It's a FFXIV thing. We don't need apps or addons to raid. The one time a guy tried using one, a cometeor dropped on his house.

[@Corrupted]

I've been playing wow on/off for .. 13/14 years, everytime I took a break it would take ~6-12 months until I got that itch again. It's been 2 years and the itch is like a blistering wound I don't want to touch and I just cover up. I played for 3 days to hit max level during Shadowlands release and then just went "What even is this? This isn't fun, I'm just wasting my time for a world that doesn't feel like the one I love." and logged off before even seeing the raid

[@illidan155]

very true and relatable

[@Corrupted]

@@knappieboy Legion was my last hoorah, mythic raiding/no-lifing was great during that xpac - To be fair, it's almost always mostly about the world/lore, if you care about the current content you can easily deal with bad gameplay mechanics and progression systems haha

[@stevensnyder8741]

"I think that there's also a huge correlation between the game being fun to play and people playing the game." That this needed to be voiced tells all.

[@Pixelatedrat]

I agree. Each expac and major patch are the same formula. Grind to max. Do dailies, grind rep, repeat new patch, same thing grind and dailies. Loot to me isn't fun. It something there that's cool but it's not fun. The game has been dimmed down to a. Robotic machine formula to waste time, give you a dopamine hit and grind for the next hit.

[@ChiodosBlowsDogs]

This is why I'm still playing elden ring, shits the most fun I've had with a video game in like a decade

[@a4235]

that is also why I stopped 8 months ago, would've stopped earlier even if my friends hadn't pulled me back in telling me to give it one last go. game makes us feel forced to play because you have to keep grinding to the point where its not even enjoyable anymore

[@gikakiknadze4183]

Rock bottom? Just you wait when it hit's earth's core

[@gabler7992]

countdown never stops

[@justbear9641]

Earth core, bruh they already reached it, they are just digging until they reach Australia

[@DBTHEPLUG]

@Asmon⁺⓵⓼⓺⓪⓸⓺⓽⓻⓵⓹⓺ Sounds legit. Will do!

[@Divide33]

@@DBTHEPLUG lmaoo

[@alanwelch9216]

Get to the core and find a giant fucking sword

[@raze956]

in germany, there is this saying "schlimmer geht immer", which roughly translates to "worse is always possible" with blizzard, i am convinced they can go much lower still. simply because of their design philosophies and being clueless about whats actually fun to players.

[@Mr_Edwards_1995]

Unfortunately this can relate to a good chunk of the AAA gaming market. They’re designing games to keep revenue up and share holders happy.

[@NurDerEffzeh1948]

vorwärts nimmer, rückwärts immer!

[@GikamesShadow]

I think the saying you are looking for is "It can always get worse" lol

[@KingSwoleNerd]

What the lady said in euro trip 😅

[@StriKe_jk]

"it can always get worse" would be the proper translation, a saying that is often used.

[@p-eliy649]

The only thing I'm scared is, that the problems are rooted so deep, that if they want to change they'll need to work on the game from the ground up or basically do WoW 2.

[@nyranstanton203]

^ thats what they should really do....WOW 2

[@Seysande]

WoW 2 PagMan

[@Crittek]

@@nyranstanton203 WoW2 would only attract new players. Pretty risky when the game already makes tens if not hundreds of millions annually .

[@kolofre]

you are stooopid

[@Nameonly67]

@@kjellannn too bad most players can't do those mythic +s because all the sweaty people are doing them and don't want to do them with new players. But how are people supposed to learn the mechanics and increased difficulty when they are declined for every mythic..... I see so many mad nasty people in mythic+ nobody wants to deal with that shit

[@thehardcorecasual9444]

It s funy how everyone, including Asmon, is considering a mmo beeing nothing else than a raiding game, a raiding simulator, like no other content is important and the quality of a mmo is only related with the quality of clearing bosses. It s also sad that most new players from today don t know that there can be a different content or game play in a game, other than farming and pumping against bosses. We also take for granted a lot of amazing development into the immersion side of a game (story/world/characters design/ music or fun systems, that do not add to character progression).

[@Xero_Kaiser]

The "endgame is the real game" mentality has been a plague on MMO design since it first popped up.

[@imagine917]

The story is mediocre. It has always been mediocre. Music is average. Character design is very cartoonish. The leveling is a lot of fun but you can get all characters to 60 in 2 weeks. One month at most. It takes an average of 12 hours for one char to be 60. It was the pvp that made me stay until it was no longer fun also.

[@selection5072]

Well MMOs have always been endgame heavy. It really makes or breaks a game. If a game has a shit story, but good endgame, people tend to stay longer than if it's the other way around. MMO's, especially the ones with monthly fees, really rely on those people to carry on the subs to get them more money. It won't matter if your base game is good, once people are through with that, they'll move on. Look at Outriders for example (wasn't that great but still). The Base game was fairly decent, but once you got through the main game and played through the same expeditions, people got tired extremely fast and playernumbers dropped hard. And don't get me wrong, I love a good story. I'm playing FF14 right now and I'm having a blast, but I already know I won't go through all those MSQs again.

[@FoulUnderworldCreature]

@@symphonixblades I don't give a shit about story. If I wanted story I'd play a single player RPG. I want open world content that isn't just a massive time gate (levelling).

[@Spiritwonder420]

@@symphonixblades who cares about story just give me raids ff14 you pay monthly to watch a movie and do some content fuck that model

[@SwissyChief1265]

I was raiding when I literally had nothing better to do in my life. Now I have a family, an actual job, other hobbies... there is no way in hell I can ever waste time raiding ever again.

[@rodrigomgdealmeida]

@Asmon⁺⓵⓼⓺⓪⓸⓺⓽⓻⓵⓹⓺ HHAHAh, these bots 😂💀

[@nimrylchee8796]

I used to be a "hardcore" or a "serious" player/raider back in the day. I stopped in Wotlk.. didnt like the games direction... both community wise and dev wise. I tried to "get a life" like you for many years.. failed. Now I do archery, hence the profile picture. I focus on that now.

[@FreedomAndPeaceOnly]

There is also alot of *timegating* to an degree that just makes the game toxic. If I cannot earn about 92% of all obtainable cosmetics ingame in the span of just *'A SINGLE YEAR'* than the game does something wrong. We are not trained monkey ready to throw ourself into eternal masochism for the illusion of granduer when we finally obtained something that takes °cough° _"long to earn"._ Nobody cares about the selfproclaimed, naked Kings of WoW and we want it all. We all have just better things to do otherwise, don't we? 😉

[@mexcellent227]

@@nimrylchee8796 Hey, atleast your archery progression doesn't reset to 0 every 1 and a half years..

[@nimrylchee8796]

@@mexcellent227 *claps* exactly. no one can nerf me either. level up in irl instead. -- Altho if you don't keep it up, it does start to degrade.. so it's entirely on you.

[@Drainbamege]

I don’t raid because you need to have an achievement you get from doing the raid to get in the group. Or have an ilvl so high, that what ever mode you’re trying to do doesn’t actually drop gear that’s an upgrade.

[@ramdog_millionaire]

Yea why bother when I can just play another game with raids

[@sephi7ac]

The closest thing you can compare WoW raids to in FF14 are the Alliance Raids. But even then, FF does it better. Once you kill things, they're dead for the duration (trash doesn't respawn at all), and there are shortcuts positioned just after the most recent boss you defeated. If WoW could adopt just those two things, raiding would be less of a slog.

[@Kleowi]

WoW players wished LFR had the same prestige as Alliance Raids in FFXIV. But LFR is by designed from the ground up to mark people that participate in it as casual bottom feeders that don't deserve any consideration.

[@intergalacticspacewizard1966]

Imo, the raids in SL has been incredibly overturned, even for normal and heroic. It used to be that my guild could jump into both normal and heroic on first week with our fully geared bis mythic and m+15 gear and clear it very easily up to maybe the last 4 or 5 heroic bosses but in SL that hasn't been the case, it was so bad that even the second raid was too tough week 1 for a full clear on normal. The raids on the casual difficulty is too hard and it's turning people away

[@justsomeguy4422]

@Konjo bruh you people and this "Andy" buzzword. like imagine enjoying a game, watching it turn to shit, playing another game and finding yourself enjoying that new game. aint nothing wrong with that. broaden your horizons.

[@yuzulemonvt]

plus not having to eat buff food after each death!

[@bitharne]

What would really set WoW apart is getting a level designer to make a raid like Dark Souls 1 map…so interconnected people would love it. Also, yes, trash doesn’t respawn once killed.

[@MrMartell77]

I think one of the major differences between Classic and retail is the story. Vanilla, TBC and Wrath were all parts of the same story arc, you started in vanilla fighting evils that were basically the lower lieutenants of Arthas, then in TBC we got to middle management, and in Wrath we got to Arthas himself. There was a greater story arc we were working through. From what I've seen, since Cata it's been short discombobulated stories. Here's a new baddie that comes from "random place" and interacts with factions leaders. New xpac, new random bosses. The overall story arc is lost and you just play through the xpac to get to the next. As I see it: Classic = You're part of the story, Retail = You play through the game to get to the next xpac, story is secondary, possibly even tertiary.

[@jorgebellidolavado6382]

And also, new people cant get the full story in any low level expansion because stories end with raids.... And no one want to help low characters to finish any story. So, people pay 15 dollars for the end of the journey instead of the journey per se XP

[@Golemoid]

TBC and Wrath were a finale to the storylines set up in TFT, and Cataclysm was the same thing but for Vanilla WoW. The entirety of Classic's endgame revolved around Old Gods (minus Naxxramas), Dark Iron dwarves, Black dragonflight, Ragnaros, they were all servants of the Old Gods, and of course we had C'thun himself and his bug army. Not to mention we got sequels to smaller stories like Defias Brotherhood, Scarlet Crusade and so on. But everything after that is more or less a filler, except for Legion.

[@MrMartell77]

@@Golemoid That's my point, Classic shows that the story had multiple facets, we were part of several factions vying for power, but the ultimate goal was to work towards stopping Arthas. What is there today? The "Jailor"? Which seems like a rip off of Thanos, Blizzard has always used outside influences, however, this one seems lazy. The stories are one offs, heres a baddie, here's their loot, on to the next.

[@MrMartell77]

@@jorgebellidolavado6382 I agree, it's a flaw in the game design that no one has solved, everyone focuses on the endgame content. All the previous raids pretty much get left behind. Now that Wrath is here, I will deeply miss Kara, it is by far my favorite raid, but no one will bother with it anymore. The effort/reward ratio is gone once Wrath is out. Honestly, I'd love to see Blizzard come up with a way to make them relevant again, but I don't see how. Another issue is the lack of rebalancing leveling. It's nice that they make it faster, but they didn't change the quests and rewards to match the speed. I started a new char to see how it would go. By the time I hit level 30, I couldn't afford to buy a mount and by 60 I was tuck on the 60% mount until about level 64-65. They have to re-calibrate the lower level stuff so new players can make a legit go of it.

[@DruidsTears]

My biggest thing is for such an expansive universe it feels like there's no imagination...

[@voidhawkslx]

Yea that was my experience with legion, it wasn't alt friendly - but the GAME was fun and provided every spec significant unique progression mechanically and also provided unique stories, transmogs and collectibles. So not alt friendly, but instead alt rewarding.

[@Gewsfrahba]

it was friendly in the sense that there was a lot of content specific to an alt so that it felt extra novel doing it on an alt as opposed to your main. since the campaigns were different, they didnt feel like a chore, it made sense to do it again. ZM campaign for rewards on multiple alts is stupid, but since it changed per class it didnt feel like that in legion, it felt different, it made sense.

[@fool4143]

Raids should just have 1 or 2 trash packs before a boss that teaches you a mechanic. You don't lose your food buff when you die. When you die you spawn just outside the boss room. Each difficulty of a raid boss should either include a new mechanic or just buff damage. I think crafting should be a bigger part wow and use portions of each zone as a Timeless Isle(TI). So have 2 zones have TI one being a beginner ilvl and another zone be a harder difficulty. Do this throughout the expansion adding more difficulties that rotate between zones every 2days- 1 week. Have gear have upgrades so for example 200ilvl normal dungeon gear 210ilvl Heroic dungeon 220ilvl Normal Raid 230ilvl Heroic Raid 240ilvl Mythic Raid Each upgrade increases ilvl by 5. So normal would need 6 upgrades to reach heroic raid ilvl, Heroic Dungeon would need 4, Normal Raid need 2, Heroic Raid we will give one upgrade maybe, and Mythic is just best gear. So upgrades can only hit Heroic ilvl. But getting the materials takes time and can get in any content. Make the world be better, crafting important, people can do whatever content they want, more alt friendly, etc.

[@FrankysABoysName]

1 - 2 packs or mini boss/small event seems reasonable imo

[@Devin1986]

Lots of great points. I think an under analyzed aspect is the loot aqusition rate per minute of time play investment. Blizz nerfed loot drops. And removed master looter. Raiding is no longer an efficient means to gear up. So if you played the game to raid and gear up, you would realize it's a bad investment and quit.

[@SakuraShuuichi]

I like having the trash when it is also essentially a puzzle to solve getting to the next boss, but also I agree fully once you get to the boss, checkpoint so at a wipe you just start at the boss, the run back is/was always just annoying and a waste of time.

[@smeegy1]

Yeah a lot of bosses in tbc had a shit load of trash before them and looking back on those raids I still love them to death. Plus as your gear gets better and better your raids eventually get pretty quick. I don't really understand the moaning about trash or runbacks because I actually loved my guild when I raided and we were all friends on a first name basis eventually.

[@fladormon]

IMO the trash was never a serious issue, the serious issue was the mechanics that rely on a single person doing an RNG-targetted mechanic that can cause a raid wipe. Though i will say, the trash in sepulcher, was very very annoying but not because of the numbers, just the random bullshit that knocks you off platforms

[@GarredHATES]

GW2 is so slept on. its such a great game with no sub fees

[@GarredHATES]

@@teamspeak9374 wrong!

[@jademers88]

played this game since 2004 and I took a break during WoD and came back during legion, bfa, and shadowlands. This is the first time I'm really considering quitting for good. Dragonflight and the drathyr are just not enough to get me back anymore. Game is no longer what it used to be and I hope that for all those people addicted to the game that you can make the right choice to let go of that addiction and discover other wonderful games out there. If your struggling you can do it! Life is bigger than WoW

[@fdmz2537]

wow is factually the best mmo on the market by far,and i mean BY FAR,yes it's not perfect, there's no perfect game,i've played ff,wow is better,i've played new world,wow is better,i've played lost ark,wow is better.That's just fact.

[@M1ntberrycrunch]

At some point, Trash was as difficult and challenging as bosses. Trash was part of the raid. But with more random loot it drops,

[@fladormon]

inb4 you raid in a mythic raiding guild and have to trade BOEs because it helps all raiders get their consumables and repairs. Also, as a raider, i raid to kill bosses, not annoying trash. if i wanted to kill annoying trash, i'd do M+

[@paierjeep]

@@fladormon 100% my guild was a 40/60 split in favor of the guild for your boe’s

[@joyrides3585]

Having flying taken away and then having hoops to jump through when the expac is more than half over is why I only play the first couple of months of each expansion. I enjoy the leveling up process, experiencing the dungeons and some raids, but when I am then having my time wasted by not having flying and having only ground mounts for the next 9 months, it's unbearable. Having flying taken away is perhaps the dumbest thing Blizzard has ever done, and it coincides with the games decline in the playerbase.

[@michaelthomas1916]

It should be automatic at level cap or completing the main leveling storyline.

[@marcelrodriguez2067]

@@michaelthomas1916 it was like that before.

[@upsidedownpeon9984]

@@marcelrodriguez2067 People can bash cata as much as they want but it had flying at the start and it was the first expansion to stream line questing. Of course its much more streamlined and cleaned up now but cata had some really nice things going for it.

[@DemonicLemur]

That is the unfortunate reality of vertical progression

[@GeorgeMonet]

It was a sign that Blizzard was no longer concerned about player enjoyment but player time wasting. Removing flying was the final nail that made me quit WoW.

[@clarenceyax8117]

I'm a collector player. I play WoW to collect mounts mostly. The minute-to-hour gameplay is usually me using flightpaths or auto-flying to my next stop. If they added a teleport system akin to FFXIV, I would save SO much time each week.

[@mrgreen3002]

Cant have that 😂

[@xDarkxZerox1]

You know what??? Someone at Blizzard got anxiety for what you said and will nerf the speed of flying mounts. They dont want us to travel fast with some bs excuse like the Dragon Talent bc THEY WANT TO WASTE OUR TIME! Its so frustating man!

[@danielandersson3067]

This is one of the reasons why modern mmorpgs like final fantasy sucks. Imagine how small the world would feel if you could tp all over the place. Fucking dumb solution.

[@clarenceyax8117]

@@danielandersson3067 Yeah, it's a lot dumber than what you said. Oh wait, you just used insults instead of anything useful or intelligent. We'll never have your sort of insight or ability to run a highly successful MMO. Too bad you won't share it with the world.

[@jneal713]

@@danielandersson3067 "this world feels so big while I'm sitting on this flight path or boat that I've done for 15 years!" Said no one ever. People get up and take a dump while on flight paths. Play another game one time idiot.

[@HollowiikIsHere]

I somewhat really miss Legion. I spent hours on Legion and I loved every second of it.

[@Daisieheart]

same and i almost ALMOST wanted to resub for WotLK classic but all i have to do is remind myself that it wont last

[@rebelangel8227]

@@Daisieheart i was going to do the wotlk content but than i reminded myself why i enjoy going back to the desolate zone and that is to remember the good times i had there when it was the current expact than i told myself no matter what i do them memories are gone forever and there is no point in chasing waterfalls...wotlk was good times for me but it can never be relived again all them people i enjoyed the xpac with are long gone now...ect i have no intent on trying to relive the goods times i once had only to know they they will always fall short now of expectations...i wont have my rogue nemesis hunting me down in wintersgrasp in off hours i wont have my crew to heckle raiders there...and i wont have the raiding guilds that i was in running icecrown around the clock till we completed it...them days are in the sands of time forever now. and just cool winds of memories for me..thats why its pointless for me to play wrath classic

[@granpaflattop723]

Castle Nathria raid was best for the season/expansion cause the trash mobs dropped BoEs like candy.. the amount of BoE farms anytime Fated CN is around compared to other raids is huge.. never mind the buffs you can get and the minibosses that have like one mechanic to work with.

[@AIIu_]

A few weeks ago I started playing wow again and I'm having so much fun. But the thing is that I don't enjoy doing the current expansion content. I'm playing pretty casually and just farming mounts etc. I would be miserable if I tried to get back on par with other players this late into the expansion.

[@AIIu_]

@@206Zelda Yeah. I just can't play games like it was my job anymore since I have real life responsibilities. I think that applies to a lot of people since wow's playerbase is definitely on the older side. Now I just log in to farm a few old raids and dungeons with a couple of alts for the mount gamble.

[@yuzulemonvt]

I am literally not raiding or playing mythic plus because the thought of farming rep for a second legendary to be "meta enough" just fucks me up so badly... Unlocked flying everywhere a few weeks ago and stopped again to hope for changes in dragonflight (coping hard)

[@TheSpicyLeg]

Hands down, the biggest detriment to me when raiding is time. I simply cannot devote the time to raiding WoW. So, I started savage raiding. We raid 2 or 3 times a week, an hour to an hour and a half. Because there is no trash, and the only prep is food (easily acquired once from a whole tier) and materia. Materia can be done any time and only changes with gear upgrades. We’ve even had impromptu raids where the 8 of us were playing and did some progress in the morning on 5 minutes notice. I can’t play WoW, pure and simple.

[@gaiusbaltar8915]

43:10 "I can't pug anymore, I can't play the game, I have to be in a guild, I don't have time for a guild." FUCKING. THANK YOU. I loved organizing pugs during Wrath. It was uncommited, but still social. You had a couple of players you knew on your friend list and grabbed whoever else was available, and then you did heroic dungeons, the weekly, and minor raids like Archavon, Malygos or Obsidian Sanctum, *and you had fun doing it.* Was it minor league content? Of course it was minor league content! But it was still a social game, and you still got to get the best goddamn minor league gear there was. Where is that kind of contend now? With a dozen different gear ranks within one patch, that kind of gear is basically now worthless now - and you don't even get to pug it, because you have to use the goddamn raid finder to even access the lowest difficulty raid, and normal mode is too hard for pick up groups anyways. Ask me why I'm no longer playing any endgame content.

[@KyleJosephBuckley]

When creating your character you should have an option to create a “family crest” that’s personal to you and all of these grinding aspects would be shared among your family crest which you could apply to your alts.

[@KyleJosephBuckley]

Grinding aspects like reputation*

[@BuckRodgers3]

@@KyleJosephBuckley The Old Republic's family system was one of the best things they did, unlocking earlier mounting or certain races for other classes for your alts made everything feel connected.

[@KyleJosephBuckley]

@@BuckRodgers3 I remember playing TOR and while I really liked it for the time being, it never hooked me like WoW did. I remember playing WoW in the very beginning and there was literally nothing like it. In the beginning, I felt like the game allowed players to deal with their "problems" more freely which made it more fun and dangerous going out and adventuring in a pvp server. Say if someone was trolling you and killing you over and over again, you would literally have to convince someone of a higher level to come in and help and sometimes it would turn into an organic skirmish. Do they still do this with WoW in its current form? Later expansions it felt like player experience was more and more "controlled". I've been debating hopping back in but it honestly has gotten so complicated I'm not sure if I could even compete.

[@salvadorscar6057]

Legendary family crest. After Diablo Immortal, we need crests everywhere.

[@BuckRodgers3]

@@KyleJosephBuckley Yeah Old Republic was just wow with a starwars skin and a lot of money pumped into voiced story but it had a couple cool things eventually. And no wow has gotten even worse with only doing things after you que up for them, the open world is either dead or completely dominated by one faction.

[@hansoo7176]

The idea of having the raid divided into 3- 4 parts with each having 2-3 bosses and a couple of packs in between like ff14 is the way to go Finishing 1 part a day in 30min to 1 hour was great Not everybody can play 4 hours straight The number of times that we lost our tank or best dps after 2 hours of raiding is uncountable 3 to 8 hours raid is obsolete

[@Arcexey]

Hansoo man I remember the standard in BC and LK was like 4 hour raids, 4 days a week.

[@hansoo7176]

@@Arcexey true lol Missed my finals cause the gm wanted to finish ulduar before reset. Stayed up to 6 am and overslept. Ah the old days But unfortunately time have changed. Before could stay on PC playing 8 hours of age of empire or doing bg for 5+ hours to farm one piece, it was a bliss. Now unless you re playing professionally, it s hard for most players to get more than 4 hours playtime a day. On bc and lich king, could do my dailies on 2-3 characters with time to spare with that playtime. So long raids weren't that big of a deal. Because dailies were more fun. Now with 10+ m+ a week, rbg or arena if you still play pvp, the daily "chores" or what blizzard call dailies, it becomes harder for not competitive players to find time for everything. It s easier to do an hour m+ than 4 hours raid 2-3 times a week. That s why it s better to have multiple dungeon sized raids than a giant one. Offers better flexibility. Tried it in ff14 loved it

[@Arcexey]

@@hansoo7176 yeah it's not doable anymore to play that much. Many reasons, mostly stuff involved economy and wages, social media taking over our time. I feel I wasted amazing years of my life addicted to that game, yet still hold those memories as dear to me. I stopped playing after LK, don't even consider wow a game anymore but just a money shop/casino with graphics. Put in a month of each expansion, but no sir not anymore. Classic was fun but mishandled.

[@Arcexey]

@@hansoo7176 also, about dailies, they sicken me. dailies helped ruin wow imo, I remember the day they became a thing with ogrila and netherwing. That felt okay because I thought it was just a one off and it was all going towards one big reward sorta. Also the sunwell island place. It was fun to do them even if they were actually quite dumb - it felt like you were all working together and contributing to more areas being opened up. didn't know that those things would be around to stay and that they'd become almost the main feature of the game. now they're used just like any stupid app game. even if you use something like Duolingo, they have a form of dailies.

[@wackantheduck6883]

I really don't think Lost Ark is as big of a factor as Asmon seems to think it is. Player numbers have dropped drastically since the initial launch spike and - atleast from what I've seen - the game doesn't appear to have had a great impact in the west

[@ziggs123]

Was a wow andy, started lost ark on lunch and never stopped playing. Lost Ark is amazing, not flawless, but worth the investment unlike wow

[@wackantheduck6883]

@@ziggs123 "Worth the investment" literally, lol

[@ziggs123]

@@wackantheduck6883 f2p, 1500ilvl Striker, massive damage. Paying for mats isn't worth it and is hella expensive. Bots and g2g was a big issue, but got under control now pretty much. Still dislike that you can buy progress and the daily grind is to much for me so I slowed down a lot, but enjoying playing my main like day one. Game is fun, combat is fun, that's the most important thing.

[@tabathasteele7547]

Normal dropped so bad because people can't get into raids. Everyone thinks you should all be professional elite type of players. I have sat for long periods of time trying to get in one. I have played since 2006 and elitism is just getting worse the more they are catered to. Also my server was high pop but they offered free transfers to new low pop servers and my server has suffered tremendously. It is now a lownpop server and can't hardly recruit for guilds..

[@dermagnus8482]

Right. Nothing is more boring than playing perfect all the time. The people are not AIs and should treated more like humans.

[@dr3armer]

Thats the reality of gaming as a whole. Every game is getting more elitist. Devs need to do what FFIV does and reward helping new players.

[@dariobellotta1606]

the problem with alts in my opinion is the meta, because often you HAVE TO reroll when your class / spec is not in the meta like switching champions in lol

[@ernestisom5878]

In the old days all mmos were mostly about the grind. It was mostly the community and the novelty of being online with lots people that made them appealing when they first came out. Seems like the new model for mmos is to rush to the end and do raids to obtain a sense of virtual materialism to show off dumb items. Thats why FF11 has always been my favorite. It's hard, tedious, and overly complicated for most tasks but it maintains an element of being a rpg before a mmo.

[@ernestisom5878]

@@cattysplat Exactly, I miss the old days of just experimenting and working with what you got. I remember when entering a new area was exciting because you had work hard to get there and could die and have do it all over again lol. This parsing best in slot stuff is annoying. Their attitude is the worst because their using knowledge gathered by others or data mined acting like their awesome following a step by step guide.

[@skryze6381]

Corruptions were one of the main reasons I quit BFA and ofc Classic release. I remember raiding Mythic as a spriest and I was missing a few bis corruptions such as (Chorus of Insanity) and no matter how sweaty I played I could not out perform the other spriest/dps in my guild with similar gear but all the better corruptions…really ruined my urge to compete

[@eds7343]

Have solo, duo, trio, 4 man, 5 man, 10 man, and 20 man dungeons that any player can solo but difficulty and 'trash' mods increase as more players are added into the group. And find a way to balance. Also with group dungeons/raids have a chest that drops and gives loot separate per player so each person gets a chance to get their own loot or 'tier gear'

[@panda93247]

So as an accidental experiment, I boosted a resto shaman to 60, bought all 233 gear and a green weapon from Zereth Mortis (agi based staff... oops) and took to healing M+ straight away without thinking about conduits and soulbinds, so zero borrowed power. I had trouble healing up to when I had 273 item level (yes, I eventually replaced the agi staff with an int one). For reference, this was during Fort, Burst, Storm, and shroud week. I was able to get through +14s, but I was really really struggling, even with pretty decently geared tanks. After realizing I had zero conduits and soulbinds, I am now healing +18s a day afterwards and practically falling asleep in dungeons because it is so much easier. Make your own conclusions, but I believe that borrowed power has no place in the game apart from the gear that you earn by running through content.

[@keithanlabrey8638]

People just never learn, so many people were excited for Shadowlands (me included) and now everyone's talking about how dogshit it is, and then those same people turn around and go "BuT dRaGoNfLiGhT iS lOoKiNg GoOd ThO" DF is clearly going to be another rushed half baked mess that everyone is going to call dogshit in 2 years, maybe even sooner. wow is dead, sad but true.

[@7Ghos]

If every trash you killed increased the % of loot quantity and or quality or in some way advantaged you while in dungeons/raids it would be beneficial and encourage groups to clear instead of skipping where possible. Groups would be incentivised to completely clear the dungeon/raid

[@-jakey-]

"i think it just sucks" thats the punishment for losing, you have to waste your time for the chance to try again. the main attraction of an mmo is supposed to be the world, not raiding

[@anonimosd.2872]

The punishment for loosing is that you don't kill the boss so you don't get the rewards. The time you waste running to the boss is not punishment, it's just an excuse to keep you in the raid longer. Guess what, I used to raid mythic for 3 hours in wow and I raid for 3 hours in ff14. The difference is that in ff I don't waste any time with all that nonsense and I progress more. Wow tries to keep you in the same raid for as long as possible so you don't get what you want faster and start asking for more content.

[@Bethgael]

I can relate to your mum. I was the same; played in Vanilla, and introduced two of my sons to the game around Wrath (they were too young before that; my eldest wasn't interested). I also raided heavily in Wrath and then again in Panda (Cata I went back to university so no time but my guild did it with said sons). One of the sons got disgusted with the culture well before it was newsworthy and quit, never to return. The other was actually a brilliant PvPer, during Panda actually topped our server in stats. He quit during Legion because the time sink was affecting his work too much; he couldn't do both, literally. I unsubbed my "kids account" then. I unsubbed my third account (altaholic here) with the "OMG flying again, eff that" as your mum did. I finally let go of my main account and disbanded my guild when Blizz kept Kotick on, by that time I was only playing a couple of hours a week anyhow so what was the point. My main MMO is ESO, now, but for the most part I just hang around in SP games because replaying CoD or Skyrim or building hospitals and universities in Two-Point County are more rewarding for my dopamine hits than grinding that bloody emerald dragonling pet in the original swamp of sorrows. or having to "learn to fly" yet again. At the same time, a friend who played in beta, but hadn't played for ages, had joined in Legion but never managed to get flying in anything quit, because even with the level splats it just wasn't new player friendly and she got tired of having me taxi her around. I will never go back to WoW, even if Microsoft clean them up. And our family sank thousands of dollars into them over the years.

[@SkippingBaboon]

Video games as a whole are at rock bottom. Its not just WoW. This is why any new game that releases with any remote hype, blows up instantly, as people are dying to get their hands on something new and fresh, only for player count to crash and burn within days once initial hype has died. Tower of Fantasy is a great recent example of this, people I know with no care for the genre, wanted something new to play so bad, they not only downloaded the game, but pre-installed, only to quit the game within days. Most top streamers right now are playing age old games. The top of stream charts is littered with people playing games that have been around for neigh on 10+ years. The top 4 current games on Twitch for example are 1. League of Legends. 2. Grand Theft Auto V. 3. Valorant. 4. Minecraft.

[@ChristianR-fx8uy]

I think main reason people don't raid is bc there is just no loot. You spend hours in a raid and come out with 1-2 pieces of loot, which might not even be the things you need. So to get a full set of items, you know you need at least 20-30 runs. Knowing that, people just opt out. So while it taking long is one major factor, the reward is the other side of it.

[@billkotsis8941]

in vanilla and classic wow gearing was way worse, yet people did not seem to have an issue. in vanilla, you also had the dkp point system ontop of the luck needed for the item to drop. In case you wonder, with the dkp system you gathered X points per boss killed with an add on system. once an item dropped, u used said dkp points to get it. oh the guild drama back then... as officers usually used their position of power and geared themselves and their friends first. you could be raiding litteraly for weeks on end and maybe get 1 or 2 items because when you first joined a guild you were at the bottom of the guilds food chain and had zero priority for items, even though said item was BiS for your class. imo, as far as item progression goes retail wow is x10 times better as opposed to vanilla/classic

[@ChristianR-fx8uy]

@@billkotsis8941 people didnt mind back then for several reasons. A)you knew you were getting gear with your DKP, there was no expectation to get drops automatically. B) there was nothing to compare with. Purples were rare and if you were full purple, you were the shit. Blizz have had expansions where you were getting drops every few bosses and that set the bar higher, going down from there is what makes it feel. C) vanilla wow raiding was not as casual. You needed a guild, you needed 40 other players, you had little to no addons, you needed to be useful enough to get a spot. That was the whole thing, it was special to raid, and you did it together, trash wasn't boring cos you had all the banter and you were doing it together. Whole different world from logging on, getting on raid finder, booking a slot on a boost, joining a pug or going with guild today. When everything else from leveling to questing can be done in 1-1.5 hours for the day in modern wow, the pacing is completely different compared to back then when grinding 1 lvl took a day or more. Comparing vanilla to patch 9.3 is like comparing guild wars with FF

[@chillshock2144]

The one question that should be answered: Why did so many people have fun - even made it their primary thing in the game - to play and gear and skill alts. Because nowadays EVERYTHING is so openly "a waste of time". My theory: because "getting gear" and "leveling crafting" is as abstract as the system should be.

[@filips2146]

People had fun back in the day cause it used to be about leveling and exploring and raiding being a second hand enjoyement. Now pve is dogshit which used to be the only fun area in wow so now wow as a whole is a waste of time.

[@chillshock2144]

@@filips2146 dogshit as in "when you level up, the enemies will level up but your gear will stay crap. Essentially you level-up down" Systems. But hey, at least there are lots of things that don't even try to pretend to be anything but timesinks and timegates and borrowed power. Cough. I honestly haven't even felt like "this is warcraft" in shadowlands and was primarily annoyed by mountains, mobs and quests-I-didn't-give-a-crap-about. Basically.

[@bertnelson4087]

I played every day from the end of BC to mid Cata. I’ve come back for the start of every expansion to see if it’s good. I’ve always kept up with the content as it comes out. Nothing has hit that WoTLK feeling. Everything about it was perfect. The things I liked about Wrath have disappeared completely in most cases from the current game.

[@chrisk1458]

Only come back for the last patch of the xpacs. All BS is gone and gear is pretty easy to get. I quit SL after 1 month and only could last so long because of friends playing too. Now I have some fun in arenas cause it takes no time to get started (if u have 1 char completed everything of the BS) And it's pretty balanced. Warlocks and fury warriors need 20% nerfs but yea it's good

[@scottsetzke7967]

Legion was wayyy more alt-friendly due to the fact that you had different quests/lvling options. Shadowlands has the same daily's and you can't queue for different dungeons after a certain ilvl. it's terrible that they don't let you just Play the way you want to.

[@edkennen9672]

at this point my issue with raiding is that the gear is just outclassed and less useful than what you get out of m+. maybe if the raids dropped upgradeable loot in the same bounds as m+ that'd be something. really i think raiding and mythic plus need to be more integrated or more separate because right now they feel like they're competing for the same audience and the pacing and rewards of m+ are just BETTER.

[@danmoore6062]

Trash is inherently required to make a raid experience. The problem is that it needs to be designed better. People would hate raids if they were just boss rushes because the concept of the raid doesn't get a chance to be fully fleshed out. Dungeons need soldiers/minions....bosses need underlings that serve them. A giant castle with empty halls except rooms with bosses feels artificial and fantasy breaking. What needs to happen is an overhaul to the approach towards trash. Give them more of a realistic existence within the context of the raid. Don't simply line the halls with people standing there waiting to be engaged. Have an entire experience playing out that presents itself to the raiders. Have the soldiers/minions actually doing different things within the raid. Have actual encounters designed around spaces and what the minions are literally doing in that space before we arrived. Not just having them stand there lifelessly. This type of overhaul would vastly improve the player experience and turn trash into what it was meant to be. The battles leading up to the final encounter. The stakes slowly being raised. The weight of boss encounter having value added in anticipation.

[@emsmith1426]

absolutely agree

[@wookieebalboa]

I don’t mind the time commitment for raid. Nor do i mind the one shot mechanics. What killed raiding in Shadowlands for me was going multiple weeks doing all of the above and not getting a single piece of gear. Makes you question the time commitment

[@Unholy187]

Weekly Vault? Lol

[@stidgemon]

The problem with raiding is that mechanics have got significantly harder over the years, this is due to different difficulty levels. They designed tougher mechanics so that those could be scaled up in the higher difficulty levels, and unfortunately most people suck at some of the simplest mechanics. Mythic raiding and its mechanics should be completely disconnected mechanically from the other raid tiers.

[@annier6171]

I agree, however, I don't believe for a second that there are enough mythic raiders to fund this. I think for a long time now the majority of the player base has funded the development mythic raiding and have lived with the fall out. Everything in wow is all about that elite group of people - tuning, gear, mechanics.

[@egs3231]

A lot of players are moving from raid to dungeons, there’s a reason blizzard is doing Esports on these and is the only mmo doing competitions on clearing dungeons. There’s a reason why not everyone reaches KSM, is challenging and is not so time consuming compared to raiding. People gotta stop thinking raiding is the only challenge in WOW. If you push keys you will know there’s a big skill gap. People will be like “oh M+ Dungeons IO doesn’t MATTER, it doesn’t say anything about your skill”, well I don’t want to waste 2 hours waiting for everyone to learn a single mechanic, at least in M+ dungeons if you are high tier player you can easily carry the key and that’s why raiding is declining because people get tired of spending months wiping and not completing the raid.

[@capt.sparrow8898]

Wow is like 10+ years behind all mmos, all the mmos copied wow have gone ahead of wow and wow is still stuck in past struggling with trash/food buffs/travel stuff lol

[@Bradman1978]

Reason I left is the same as Asmon's mom. There is no point in unlocking flying unless it's day one. Also, making the water stryder not walking on rider without an enhancement you don't get until later may be different now, but I didn't get the thing in the mail until I hit BFA level. I worked hard for that mount, and I deserve to have both water walking and a slot to put the don't get dazed thing or whatever. I'll take need to unlock flying by doing the story in each zone and clearing the map because dailies and other grinning is awful when travel time is screwed.

[@brimstonevalar6053]

Retail is antisocial, you can't make friends, no one talks, Classic is more social, players create community on the server, guilds maintain population for the same reason...friends, is all about the social aspect so traditional mmorpg players will pick BC over Shadowlands and even more will do it with Wotlk.

[@colocode6979]

Be in an efficient guild maybe? We cleared all heroic fated with 21 ppl in just over 2 hours longest raid night. 15 min and 10 min break included.

[@Voxrar]

Honestly I miss the tokens from WotLK. I felt like even if I didn't get a gear drop I still had the backup of buying a good piece from the vendor.

[@bastilux]

I think its underemphasized that maybe people just like doing M+ more than raids. I personally play since years but I will probably never raid again if I can just do some M+ with my friends which I enjoy way more. (No matter what activity gives you slightly better gear)

[@noahpust3517]

Blizzard's really setting new records! So proud of em!

[@musiccommands8615]

Controversial opinion; A well designed game doesn't always equal a fun game. You'll make yourself miserable if you forget to enjoy little things.

[@MrBeetsGaming]

I played this game non stop from when it came out until pandaria came out and quit, the trash mobs used to be a big part of everything and even by the time I quit they seemed like an afterthought. It used to be fun figuring out how to crowd control and things like that but it became the tank pulling as much as possible and then an AOE fest over and over. That's part of what killed raiding for me even that long ago.

[@dummekopf]

as someone who has played ALOT of wow in my days, i didnt quit because of raiding. There were plenty other things that have put me off, beeing able to go raiding without clearing trash or and respawn at boss wouldnt make ME wanna comeback by itself. Wow is ruind. It was an Artpiece - they didnt have a vision so they ended up nowhere. ...nah i take that back, they had a vision of MILKING the playerbase for as long as they can with no regards to gameplay so they did exactly what they came for. F*****k blizzard.

[@laskeeze]

All raids should have a Stake of Marika before each boss. That was a fantastic QoL feature in elden ring

[@SurlockGnomez]

You got a better chance to get something useful from the vault than from raiding. That can still even be the case if you're in a guild, thanks to auto soul-bounding due to an item having +1 iLvL item but is in fact 10x worse in practice for the "winner" of the item - that will soon become dust or gold. I used to be a pure raider and laughed at "noobs" that push for high Mythic but I now understand they were ahead of the curve or more accurately put ahead of the dive. They weren't as I thought un-skilled, mechanically inept or social pariahs. They were playing for what most I'd imagine what most people play for - LOOT. And to get loot the best way to do that in the current state of the game is Mythics. Instead I know laugh at the "noobs" who raid. Forcing to spend more non-playing the game time than playing the game; not to mention the social drama that can occur and internal favouritism regarding loot distribution (Asmon cough). For Mythics it's apply oil, flask, food, rune and start.

[@roronoa92]

I'm glad Asmon's here to play the game for us. Thanks Zach.

[@DezKaiZer]

I loved to Raid back in TBC and WOTLK but that was a different time. Just thinking or hearing about how long raids go on these days make them very unatractive to me currently because i cant and if i could i dont want to spend so much time. The whole "Raid Idea" needs to be modernized somehow. It should still feel like a big dungeon where the big baddies reside but the game should also respect your time. I think a little mini Event before each Boss would totally be enough so it does not become a boss rush but still picks up the pacing. Also these Events could basically entail EVERYTHING. From Mini Games - Some sort of Tower defence. Running away from a fire wall whatever comes to mind.

[@GeorgeMonet]

Why do they need to be a big dungeon? Why does the boss need wipe mechanics?

[@DezKaiZer]

@@GeorgeMonet Well since a Raid is normally lore wise An Attempt to bring down mighty foes it makes sense to me that you assault their Home (Castle, Camp) whatever. I dont mind Wipe Mechanics personally its more like a skill check but i can understand if people dont like them much

[@jck78746]

I've remained a dedicated WoW fan since launch. A few family members are in the business. I've listened to a monumental amount of educated gamers opinions and suggestions, rants, raves, and rages. I'm an old person compared to the players today. Needless to say, I enjoy the fantasy mmo landscape. Asmongold - you are by far the most interesting and educated gamer I've listened to, to-date. My impression is you do this with a great amount of compassion for like-minded listeners. I especially enjoy that your Mom enjoyed gaming. I agree that Blizzard is killing WoW. So much that I've decided to unsub and uninstall. I've never reached this point before. Blizzard is wasting our time and taking the subscriber for granted. I'll continue to listen to your commentaries and enjoy them with much enthusiasm. Game on :)

[@bigppenergy3082]

Bruh typed a book no one reads

[@jck78746]

@@bigppenergy3082 you did

[@lowercasezen4595]

@@jck78746 i read it too. you're gonna be big someday kid. 10/10 would read again.

[@jck78746]

@@lowercasezen4595 Thanks :)

[@josephjucker5620]

I find it hard to comprehend how anything could dig lower than the pit pandaria exists in

[@TheBongReyes]

As a FFXIV player, my perspective of WoW is from Asmon’s opinion. What do majority of WoW players’ opinions on trash mobs in boss prog? Is what Asmon saying the reality of general WoW players’ belief?

[@TheDwagonHD]

As a former wow player. The trash was tedious. The walkbacks after wipes was so bad. It punished people that released on accident. And forced you to have a soulstone on a healer.

[@jereboy2005]

Former wow player here too. I personally hated trash, still do, even the small bits in alliance raids in ffxiv I dislike haha. But over the years I have come to the conclusion that a majority of players do not share my feelings. Typically if I briught it up on reddit in the past I am downvoted as well. I'm glad to see asmon talk about his dislike of that, maybe it will influence the public thought slightly.

[@harjawaldaz136]

As a classic player the overall raid difficulty used to be a lot easier. So a raid was less a boss progress run with countless runbacks and more like a Big dungeon where you wanted to clear as much as possible in a single night. Therefore trash was welcome since 1: a lot of the trash was interesting and needed the raid to handle it. 2: trash also dropped good stuff like items, materials for crafting and consumeables. 3: Since the goal was to clear it fast, trash pulls would flow from one group to the next, giving you a steady pace of fun but not extremely tireing gameplay (like savage raids or mythic wow raiding). Plenty of time to play well but still talk shit while having a drink. That being said, even early on it atarted becoming normalized in raids to add shortcuts straight to later points in the dungeon which was very welcome.

[@keithb6344]

Trash mobs can be too much. He talks about trash respawning but it stays dead after you kill the next boss. I can’t remember the trash respawning during a raid fight even after a lot of wipes ina very long time. I think it’s hours. As should WoW have trash, IMO, yes. I never liked the FF system of you appear in front of the boss on his circular or square platform. It just never felt right. I haven’t played FF in several months, but praetorium roulette is something more like a WoW raid. Kind of.

[@ScottySmith1957]

I think very few wow players consciously think about all of the time they're spending not killing bosses, especially because so many people have become accustomed to it. What Asmon is really trying to call into light is that the general enjoyment of raids IS declining and he's arguing that it's likely due to the mentioned problems AND that raids are a combination of too difficult + unrewarding.

[@SenpaiXcore]

I don't know how others feel but to me it was like "Oh cool, I got a chest piece from Mythic+ so I can turn that into a Tier- piece" but in the end it also devalues non-tier pieces to a large margin. The stats dont matter cause Tier-pieces are pre-determined and you'll wear 4/5 of the set at any time. I don't know how to solve it but there needs to be a way...

[@SenpaiXcore]

@@Keldiur Mh, that idea didn't cross my mind but it sounds a lot better than 5 pieces like we used to have.

[@zackimus]

I think Destiny 2’s raid encounters are good. The time between wiping and starting the encounter again is probably around 30 seconds, maybe even 10 seconds if you just jump right back in

[@freasefraim]

Mythic Plus ruined the raiding incentive. The old reason to go was because the gear there was THE BEST. Best in slot being a thing in general was the incentive to time stamp four hours of your week or more into place so that you could acquire that gear. This just isnt the case anymore. And BIS gear isnt really even BIS anymore given that there are so many options and variables to gear now that didnt exist circa "raiding = THE way to get gear" times.

[@crinch841]

I quit in 9.1, and thinking about it now it's crazy to me that people are still running around in the maw. God I hated this expansion, and it's so satisfying to know that I didn't waste my time sitting around waiting for it to get better.

[@szaka9395]

I did quit 3 times in first 2 months of shadowlands, my friends called me insane, now none of them is playing anymore...

[@jeffburkett7030]

Respawns in dungeons are just pointless stupidity.

[@SnootyMinotaur]

I swear to god belllualar makes a video with this exact title every few months.

[@Piromysl359]

There is simply no reason to play it. They completely destroyed 20 years of lore buildup just like that, which kept people engaged. It's irrecoverable.

[@jeffcameron7465]

I am sorry ... I know I will get heat for this but I cannot stand Bellular. I have never seen someone get such a hard on from WoW's decline. Over and over again. Ugh. I don't even care about why WoW is in decline. I don't care if it is true, false or in-between. I am just bitching because I can't stand that dude. Thank you that is all.

[@ScottySmith1957]

The main problem I have is that it fosters a community of exclusively negative sentiment and especially towards wow. I actually love this game so it's just sad and a bit frustrating to see video after video basically claiming the game is dogshit and no one plays it (and maybe you shouldn't too). I understand the game has numerous flaws but like... Idk I still manage to enjoy it and still want people to play the game. Even his last words were "don't pre-order the game." (referring to DF). It's just an overload of negative sentiment directed at something that isn't exclusively negative, especially with how much headway has been made in developing functional/fun game systems recently. I'm genuinely having a lot of fun playing right now.

[@trippytiffy1703]

I was a WOW lifer but he is right it gets boring fast. I totally started getting raid burn out after LK it all went to hell in Cata and I was done in during Pandaland. Then I became casual paid my sub yearly to show my support and that all ended last year. I was still waiting for housing also 😆

[@MrPapajohn4]

These videos are hilarious.. People who dont play the game would think that problem of retail is the raiding content... while it sucks almost in all aspects lol

[@Emidretrauqe]

Weren't the remaining raiders saying that we shouldn't be worried about the Slime Cat because Normal raiding is so very easy?

[@xdega]

Yeah. Imagine less people playing at the end of an expansion. That's never happened before, has it? /sarcasm

[@Mockra_]

BiS loot should be puggable and obtained with minimal friction. Pugging isn't just playing alone, if I'm playing with a few friends, we're going to need to pug content. No one wants to pug sepulcher. 99%+ of video game players that could play WoW would be pugging the content. There's no other video game that you play with a set 19 other people of a similar skill level. No clue why Blizzard doesn't optimize for the vast majority of people playing games. There's so much friction in WoW, it's absurd.

[@silverknight70]

Same for me when I log on an alt and I see the long road ahead, I log out and go do something else. It makes me play less instead of make play more.

[@justincider1528]

i've played since classic and loved everything until shadowlands... yes even B.F.A. was fun because it was the 1st time i was actually interested in mythic plus dungeons which also helped with my get good raid gear leading me into the beginning of Mythic with my guild but we didnt clear mythic raids completely. it was my highest hi point but when they removed one skill from my class so i flipped my nuggets and tried to give shadowlands a chance but it was ultimately dissapointing so i left. waiting for ashes of creation then also throne and liberty.

[@TheLittle93]

"I want my boss to be hard, not my time." - So true and real.

[@GeorgeMonet]

I don't want either to be hard.

[@ageofstrange657]

why can't trash be hard as well? only because of dem purple shinies? :D

[@RitterlichOX]

i Think a Good ides could be that kiling the trash would make the Boss easyer than leaving it allive. Skipping trash would also make the boss drop better loot. and then get rid of pre raid dificulty setting.

[@oliverandersson1991]

Eternal Palace was super low since it collided with WoW Classic launch :)

[@JTHarleyD]

Gotta remember that Castle Nathria had BiS legendaries for a lot of classes, and they were unobtainable outside of raids.

[@Blumagaming]

I think it says more about people wanting to be part of guilds. My guild got AOTC each tier but we wouldn’t be in those statistics because we had to invite pugs.

[@leeallen5132]

I dont think raid numbers are a very good indicator of general player population. The reasons people stop raiding, or raiders quit isn't the same reasons a casual player would quit. If 50% of raiders stop raiding (Which is only like 10% of the player base, and thats a high-end estimate) I dont think the reason theyd quit are very compatible with the general populace. There are more mount farmers then there are raiders, and mount farmers don't care about things like conduit energy.

[@noble61483]

If you look at how many guilds cleared normal to heroic. The number of guilds is almost the same... meaning it's most likely the same guilds who beat both versions 🤣

[@MrThordy]

Raided mythic in legion. Quit BFA after first tier and shadowlands aswell after tier one. I dont see it beeing different this time. Shadowlands looked so good to me at first….

[@TheBritishPoro]

Imagine a positive Bellular video. 9.2.7 is possibly the best patch I've ever played. Not sure why we are still complaining about 9.2.5 when we have 9.2.7. A new roster of Mythic+ dungeons. All 3 raids open. Creation Catalyst allowing for easy tier set. Account wide currencies making playing alts super easy. All covenants completely unlocked. All conduits available at maximum item level. No need to upgrade legendaries past last patch's item level. Deterministic bad luck protection in raid loot. No Valor cap. For once Blizzard actually listened and made good changes, which look to be continuing into Dragonflight. The amount of transparancy and feedback on the Dragonflight talents is extremely refreshing. In Shadowlands Alpha / Beta the community was very vocal about the issues with the Covenant and Soulbind systems, but Blizzard didn't listen. They kept it as they wanted, never said they would change it. "Meaningful Choice" remember? On the contrary, in this Alpha they are actively listening and making changes to the new talent trees. Blizzard seem to have gotten rid of the stance that they know best and are letting the community tell them what we want.

[@TheBritishPoro]

@@cattysplat Weird how people have been saying it's dead for 10 years.

[@syntaera]

Trash in raids should drop decent pre-raid-tier ilvl BoE blues with a chance of cosmetics and maybe even BoA versions of items. That would be *exciting*. They should also have weekly drop lockouts like bosses. Then people would look forward to killing them

[@atheosathonille130]

I have no intentions of playing Dragonflight because of the continued existence of LFD, LFR, Mythics and Mythic keys. The game scales from /follow afk jerking off to needing a Ph.D. I don't like either. ANd normal/flex/heroic feels compeltely pointless because you know your gear isn't optimal for keys which is considered part of the endgame that is mandatory in many cases that can't even be beaten. Here's what you need: Beatable content. 2 difficulties, Normal and Heroic that is within reasonable difficulties. Bring back the need to socialize in an MMO. TBC, Wrath and T11/T12 Cataclysm difficulties and content availability was perfect, and introduce at least 1 new BG and arena per expansion with a PvE gear overlap parallel to TBC/Wrath - very useful but not mandatory to reach 2k+ How is that a difficult concept? What is the point of re invention the wheel?

[@ozturkberkayy]

I'm a very casual and new player. I only play on weekends due to my job. I started playing Shadowlands when it became free. Tbh, I'm LOVING the campaign so far. Maps are beautiful, cinematics are great etc. I finished all eastern kingdom quests, around 70% on bfa and like 30% in WotLK. Shadowlands' quests are much more thrilling. BfA had great ideas. Racing against the opposing faction to acquire more azerite etc. Feels like that expac is a wasted potential. Blizzard just have to find a way to make the old content more relevant. Also I wish there was an easy way to play the entire story in a somewhat chronological order. It's very hard to understand wth is going on without watching youtube videos. Shadowlands campaign was easier to follow than classic storyline. In classic content they provide you with zero context, backstory etc. Also I wonder why Blizzard is not upscaling the textures of old content. Old items and mounts just look very low res compared to new ones. I'm not even talking about the terrain, buildings etc...

[@ozturkberkayy]

Also the amount of things that we have to do just to unlock flying in BfA is crazy! If I do all that, I would literally have 0 reasons left to revisit bfa maps. I would have finished all the content anyways... Walking is fine when you explore the map for the first time. But the rest is just PAINFUL.

[@petruandreescu9915]

Well, you are fresh. The grind will grind you down. This is the same every expansion

[@ozturkberkayy]

@@petruandreescu9915 I know what you mean. With the amount of grind required, I would NEVER be able to do pvp since I can only play 2 days a week. Other than that, campaign is going perfect so far.

[@johnwick9367]

Intresting how devs develop the game around PVE but in the end all they have left ia hardcore arena dudes

[@marco.3006]

People are raiding in Classic🤷🏻‍♂️ It is not because of the amount of time needed🤷🏻‍♂️

[@bluclosetgamer4577]

Getting gear in the game other than PVP literally just means that individual most likely just spent more time (wasted or not). People have a conception that they are better or what not but it just comes down to time spent and not skill.

[@narue2840]

Are we still reducing MMORPGs down to just raiding and nothing else? Incredible.

[@brentword8907]

I think one thing that doesn’t get talked about enough is the variety of games now vs vanilla and BC, in the early 2000’s my high school had 2 games we chose between, WoW or RuneScape. Now you can literally game hop multi times a month and stay semi competitive.