World of Warcraft, What Happened?

[@pilotmorgan8669]

An entire expansion about dragons and not a single humanoid has been eaten whole by one. Unforgivable.

[@Pixelatedrat]

They should go take a page from games workshop on brutality

[@Pixelatedrat]

Dragon tales.

[@ghoullyy]

I’ve only ever played Wrath on a Private Server but just watching this and then thinking about my first time seeing Blade’s Edge Mountains from the Outlands is pretty wild, butttt that’s kinda par for the course now with gaming just like, as mentioned, everything else. The dragons just hanging on giant spikes and having dragon parts hanging from chains and shit is insane but is totally badass!

[@dinovoldo544]

No one got fus-ro-dah'd off a ledge either, despicable.

[@meh23p]

Whole by one? Ohh. Yeah.

[@gami998]

I miss the dark fantasy feeling of wow, now its full of furries and friendship, feels like a disney game tbh.

[@roadrunner8072]

This is what happens when you try to reach a broader audience, they alienated their core players and now they have hardly anyone playing their new material.

[@ValtaKash]

They really need to fire “Disney Adults” and hire fuckin Van Helsing fans.

[@slicemup9]

Wow never had a dark fantasy feeling. I think the only time it was even remotely close to that was Wrath and even then, it wasn't dark fantasy, it was just spooky undead.

[@patrickmacvane5725]

Yeah I miss black rock depths/ mountain, felt so damn intimidating

[@JM-md4ri]

@@slicemup9maybe it just felt dark in comparison to the goofy bs it is today

[@americancapitalist9094]

It’s not just WoW, so many games, movies, tv shows, etc. seem to have been dumbed down, with over the top campy humor and good vs bad, poorly thought out tropes, plot holes, bad logic, with an emphasis on feelings and fake emotions. I think it’s why Elden Ring felt so damn good. It was the complete antithesis of what entertainment has devolved into.

[@Arizonian312]

Elden ring didn't even have a story if you didn't go looking for it and find all the complexities with the outergods and everything from outside sources so I don't get on a board with taht

[@olivierpujol8772]

Women ☕️

[@3Katapa]

It's not camp though its just bad. Camp is like the Charlies Angels movies, or the Austin Power movies. They still make sense and achieve what they se out to do, even if what they are trying to do is dumb. Blizz just can't write complete stories anymore.

[@ericgroves6401]

The word you are looking for is Woke!

[@l.j.hgroenewoud559]

​@@Arizonian312that attitude is part of the problem. Elden Ring doesn´t hold your hand. Don´t go looking for it. You´ll stay confused. You delve into the dirt and you find out.

[@Dreamfillah]

I've shared this sentiment about the direction of the Warcraft setting before, but here we go: The point of having a massive world with dozens of playable races shouldn't be having them all be reasonable, democratic or ethical. The appeal of the World of Warcraft is having the tribalistic conquerors, the creepy undead, the ambitious elves, the zealots, the spirituals, technocrats and imperialists living in the same world and the INEVITABLE CONFLICT that rises from these contrasting interests.

[@antonbelyaev8295]

It's not called Peacecraft

[@joeyhoser]

Yeah, the World of Warcraft is not supposed to be the world you want to live in. It's supposed to be a fantasy world full of great evils where we drive axes into the fuckin' heads of our problems.

[@badwolfxd3593]

​@antonbelyaev8295 I think that's his point dude 😂

[@hibiscus779]

WOW is based on the idea of a perpetual race war. I mean, you can't be a Horde night elf

[@greyknight5823]

Come check out our new zones! We've got: * Forest California * Desert California * Mountain California * Shoreline California * Floating Trees California Stay tuned for our upcoming raid boss, Corrupted George!

[@Konstantin1318]

"Who is this for?" For the people on twitter thanking blizzard with teary eyes that they can buy a murloc backpack for 15 dollars for their in game character.

[@dukemagnum4615]

This! And the Transmog garbage, that’s about when i tapped out.

[@HamHamHampster]

More like, for the investors who care about ESG scores.

[@certified_proffesional]

@@HamHamHampsterthis is the correct answer

[@crowmaster9652]

@@HamHamHampster the leader is the root reason the game is in its current direction the root leader is guided by a cultural influence that says he has to think a certain way for money to flow

[@Sharkofspace]

Those people don't exist. You made them up to justify your own anger.

[@NicholasBrakespear]

Vanilla WoW: "A few years have passed since the third war, which you saw in RTS form. Now a new generation of adventurers goes out into the world looking for fun. That's it. That's the story. That's literally the story; you're an adventurer, go adventure." Modern WoW: "Thousands of years ago, there was this ancient race, and they were created by this other ancient race, who were actually originally a different colour but then some ancient race tempted them with some evil powers and now they're red instead of turquoise, and now they've come back to get their revenge! Or have they? Maybe it turns out that they weren't here for revenge, they were here to protect us from an even OLDER and BIGGER evil thing that changed colour like 3 times, and here's what the big name NPCs have to say about it... wait, what's an adventurer?" Put simply, WoW forgot that plot is not story; they focused on story, and forgot that as an MMO, the plot is actually supposed to be the player's journey, nothing more and certainly nothing less. Because of this, the story used to be shaped by the urgency and agency of the player's journey - which is to say, the story was about people actually doing things, not feeling things or remembering things or discussing things. After all, the original Warcraft lore was "We need a story to explain why these guys are fighting these guys; we need them to be fighting though."

[@tiagos5804]

We all used to be adventurers, until Blizzard shot several arrows on our knees.

[@notKevinFeige]

Lost my shit at "changed colors 3 times" lmao

[@ernimuja6991]

idk man the lich king story was pretty cool.

[@kklap3219]

The "adventurer looking for fun" isnt necessarily better. In fact, in online games, unless your "journey" is interactive with other ppls journeys, its a terrible idea to make it like a classic rpg. I think new wow fits it better, because it just shoves the plot down your throat and u can go ahead and play the online game.

[@NicholasBrakespear]

@@kklap3219 "unless your "journey" is interactive with other ppls journeys" If your journey in an MMO isn't "interactive with other ppls journeys"... then the MMO is very badly designed. Seems a lot of people have completely forgotten what an MMO is actually supposed to be. "Massively multiplayer" - it's supposed to mean a little more than just "there are theoretically a lot of people on the server, but they're siphoned off into their own realities and don't need to interact with each other". "u can go ahead and play the online game" You mean, you can go ahead and spend 90% of your time grinding low-challenge high-time-requirement chores... solo, after having spent all your story time solo, listening to NPCs talk to each other and occasionally call you "hero" or "champion" while simultaneously excluding you from every major cutscene and stripping all agency from you during every pivotal moment.

[@Keyce0013]

One of the main problems of the Shadowlands expansion was being told way back in WotLK that if no one bore the helmet of the Lich King, that the Scourge would be left entirely unchecked and would devour the world. We never EVER had to deal with those consequences, because they were apparently forgotten the entire expansion. I think that part really killed the immersion of World of Warcraft because not even the people making the story could be bothered to make sure there was continuity with older lore.

[@ElderRaven]

YEAH!

[@kuntress6005]

Absolutely this… it’s the same concept of how they explained the Avatar state and how it all works in Legend of Korra. If the story you are going to tell isn’t as good as what is already been established and it’s inferior in every way, don’t fucking tell it. I think Shadowlands’ story telling is actually going to kill the game, and it’s a slow bleeding haemorrhage, WoWs fucked.

[@LawfulBased]

That is indeed the biggest flaw of Shadowlands. The Scourge was not mentioned again and they didn't go berserk. In Dragonflight there is one thing that really disgusts me and that is, that actual Dragon's of all stations seem to walk around in Humanoid-form, pardon me I meant _"Visage form"_ *ALL THE TIME NOW* as if they are more comfortable in this form in general. Which is just bullsh°t. We saw them walk around in their true, natural forms often enough. Yeah they have ton's of "mortal allys" now. Not like Dragon's are immortals either but this is how they tend to adress the Humanoid races. 😏 But its just too much how they pretty much walk around in Humanoid form all the time now *'as if they associate with those forms more'* for some stupid, Disney movie mentality like reason that has never been there before. And I could not give lesser f°cks about their *WEAK EMOTIONAL FACIAL EXPRESSIONS* all the time! Dragons should be badass. Not reek of P°SS and SOY! Sh°t I must stop this I am getting unexpectedly angry here. 🤗

[@dalerowell75]

To be fair, that line never made any sense to me. It implies that the Lich King was restraining them, in which case why invade his turf and kill him? Because he randomly attacks our capitals to give the story narrative purpose - there was no strategic reason for him to attack us unless he was planning on conquering the world anyway, at which point the difference is academic.

[@phajthoj]

its also funny that the NPCs call the players "Heroes" so im like "yeaahhh we're not heroes, more like Mercenaries for Gears" im willing to bet if Hogger from Vanilla offered us Epic gears to raid GS and SW, we would do it.

[@huggablepenguin1465]

WoW started going south when typical war strategies and events became too controversial to be put into the game. Like we all know, the Orcs used to be brutal, torturing their enemies, fighting their way through everything, raiding villages. Now they have a weird mustache, sip hot chocolate and post on Twitter. Night elves were all about silent assassinations, living in the shadows, prowling and mercilessly murdering their enemies, now they're all domesticated cats who can't even sharpen their nails without feeling some type of guilt. It's sad all around. By no means do I enjoy brutality or gore, but this is Warcraft, it's a core aspect, and they don't need to show it graphically for it to be implied, which is how it also used to be. Not anymore, though. I replayed the Silverpine Forest quest where Garrosh was talking to Sylvanas, and said "Watch your clever mouth, bitch". To my surprise, the "bitch" part was completely removed. It didn't carry the same weight. At that point, maybe they should've replaced the word with "princess"...

[@greyknight5823]

Tyrande did TRY to go murdermode, but even she was powerless before the might of The Writers.

[@huggablepenguin1465]

@@greyknight5823 Exactly. That's what I had in mind. Tyrande was essentially SHAMED for wanting to avenge her people. Told to calm down, ease up, be more rational, etc. As a night elf main, it was disappointing. We needed more. We needed more wars and casualties and conflict. What did we get? We beat the big bad Sylvanas and that fixed it? If this was 20 years ago in the lore, Tyrande would've gone on a rampage against ALL of the Horde. The Gods would be having wars - Elune on Tyrande's side and the Gods of whatever race she fought against. It'd be a massacre. As it should've been in the **world** of WARCRAFT!

[@Gutvald]

Before War III, orc were naturally brutal and murderous, they were not corrupted by demons, there was not any elementary bullshit or "bloodlust mist". This was just their nature, like ogre, trolls etc

[@ambrosiogiovanni6952]

The problem is that Tyrande is xenophobic. Can you imagine having a Main Character like this in this day and age? That's why they keep her in a leash.

[@pp3droo]

orcs were never like that they were just lured

[@DruidsTears]

I remember reading a few of the WoW books and being blown away at how brutal some of the story arch's could be. Like Thrall's enslavement under Aedelas Blackmoore in his early years provided a great backstory.

[@whatskrakalaken1940]

Very true, the older books were brutal.

[@Tigerfan-qx2xq]

We need to get back to this

[@mocs20]

People who don't know and old pedo decapitated his much younger plaything because she helped his most priced gladiator to escape. And showed Thrall the severed head before they stormed the castle.

[@Spunky.Streams]

SAME! The Humans could be pretty dang BRUUTAL and it was awesome 😎 although I’ll admit that I joined the Horde in 2004 because I thought they were the lesser evil- and that’s exactly the point, isn’t it? The lesser evil! It’s WAR-craft. Warrrrrrrcraft 🦹🏽‍♂️

[@kristiyangrigorov5232]

Which books exactly?

[@destrucktor8071]

The biggest issue I have is that none of the factions or races have a purpose - they don't have a mission or a goal that's driving them. They just... exist. And then the next big bad comes along and they react to that and then they go back to existing. There's no identity to the factions except the look of the character models and the buildings (and that isn't even relevant because the capitol city is cross faction). It just feels like nothing of consequence really happens. It feels like a sitcom - something happens that episode and then it all goes back to normal.

[@cavemantero]

Bobby: You know what audience we need to tap into?....POKEMON. Steve: I think I can make it work. Bobby: Good boy Steve....good boy.

[@sinfinity383]

Welcome to woke western ideology. In order to avoid “being offensive” you have to stand for nothing, but you are allowed to exist.

[@Kynokefalos]

I started feeling this sitcom back in BfA, witt the group of relevant NPCs whom got a sequeal in Shadowlands, its like doesnt really matter and 13€ monthly for watching this TV drama show with Marvel' hints its not worth it. I just design some really cool characters, i do a little roleplay with them and i get bored instantly and quit the game. Whats the solution?

[@Audon4150]

Nicely put. It doed indeed feel lifeless. There are so many little things going the wrong way, and all of 'em put together make a boring game..

[@shirohige291]

Globalism, modern blizz lgbtq normies, old blizzard metalhead elitists(white males)

[@sonicmarsh232]

The fact that there were no class specific questlines in expansions that would have made sense (i.e. a death knight questline in shadowlands) tells me everything I need to know about the creative talent of the team

[@nathancasey7712]

So bland

[@Ryies12]

Never thought about that, but holy shit is that bad.

[@BanicaEater]

In classic, we were nobodies that wanted to be heroes. In retail we are all heroes that have nothing to do.

[@buz3017]

“It doesn’t feel like Warcraft” that sums it up really in the most basic sentence

[@NeravarSneed86]

he shilled the expansion hard

[@ExamplePrime]

World of Peacecraft

[@rose_qwq]

@@NeravarSneed86it’s not as if he walked any of that back. Like he said the game isn’t bad to play, it’s certainly a whole lot better than BFA to Shadowlands. He’s basically just saying there’s nothing exciting narratively, thematically, or gameplay wise that will fix the damage that has been done

[@UltimatePowa]

​@@rose_qwqexactly Gameplaywise Dragonflight was rather fun The vibe just blows like Juan at the local gaybar

[@lingricen8077]

Great point about Thrall naming Durotar after his father being show not tell. Even calling their capitol city Orgrimmar, after a go-getting war-monger shows the Orcs priorities - even though they’ve tempered their rage, they still value the go-getting nature of a fighter

[@ScytheNoire]

WoW became a cartoon anime game for pre-teens. There is no more Warcraft, it's just WoW.

[@grandewill9967]

What do you think it was?

[@museluvr]

@@grandewill9967 Society whining and moaning for simple, for 'inclusion' ... and hence the downfall of the game.

[@xuke7343]

Since Wrath, Blizzard has made so many changes in a attempt to widen their player community and turned wow into a "jack of all trades, master of none" game.

[@ejlorbz]

I think the game for end game sweaty players is really good tho. story, levelling, and the world in general tho has gone down.

[@greyknight5823]

@@ejlorbz Effectively the endgame is treated as the game. And it's not an RPG, it's a racing game.

[@MaXiMoS54]

Its a theme park and not an RPG anymore

[@seanwhittington242]

At this point there is no point in leveling as its all a rush story is garbish. I don't see why you can't create a character at max level and just do boss rushes

[@bhec7715]

I personally can’t play it because it still plays basically the same exact way it did 400 years ago. The game requires only one skill, the ability to press a ton of buttons quickly. There’s no aiming, timing, dodging, or any skill required other than maybe typing 😂

[@zimti7390]

LICH KING Bolvar in Legion, during the DK campaign has you forcefully raise people into undeath to become the new horsemen "Command him to rise!".. He has you attack Lights hope Chapel, raise a bunch of corpses and try to steal Tirions body from the Paladin order hall.. For the class mount quest he sends you to the Red Dragonflight, force-chocke someone to force information out of them.. He sends you to the Ruby Sanctum which had a hidden achievement for killing ALL the dragons there, after doing that he tells you "You are empty inside.. just like me..".. When raising the bones of the Red Dragon, he tells you to "Pervert it" with your Necromancy.. Bolvar in Shadowlands, after getting his face kicked in by a Mary Sue: "Oh noez Sylvanas is so super evil and strong we need to stop her 😱😭"

[@greyknight5823]

It's not his fault guys, he just had his soul split into two parts and corrupted! 😭

[@Nersius]

​@@greyknight5823Ner'zhul has been a corrupting malignant existence since Reign of Chaos, so yeah? Or did they get rid of that?

[@Nourleen21]

Yeah, and they made his daughter into an annoying b*tch who can't forgive him for sacrificing himself. She was ok in BfA, they butchered her in SL. And Flynn had a crush on her, but in SL he was made g*y and the bf of Matthias Shaw. Why tf did they do that?

[@ZOMBIEo07]

​@@Nourleen21To force their perverted believes on you and make you mad.

[@paleface171]

When I got to the Lights Hope part of the campaign I wondered if some crafty Dreadlord managed to trick us into starting a war with the paladins. I thought no way would Bolvar be desperate or stupid enough to start a civil war when the legion would be the only ones who would benefit from that.

[@SonOfNone]

To me the vibe was greatest in lich king, and I get how safe it is to say that but hear me out- they had dk starting quests where you kill your best friend in life. They have you raid entire villages. The scourge kill/convert entire villages. Everything felt important, and yet hopelessly distant. They also introduced phasing so you could change the damn landscape of entire zones based on your progression. Hands down my favorite.

[@billnyedoesminecraftjoseph8379]

If ur referring to him talking ab the leveling experience and how dragonflight was the best, WOTLK had the best thematic leveling but dragonflight flying was insane and so much fun to level with

[@isabelle5089]

wowzers yeepee!! yoohoo!@@billnyedoesminecraftjoseph8379

[@DoomCloudX]

Best "player retention in years" just means you've ground the playerbase down to the ones who can't escape the maze.

[@Aedrion-]

Also, that was the statement after 1-2 months. Now we're nearly a year further. There is no way retention is still better. Everybody I know has quit. KZbinrs, friends, guilds, myself...

[@vagrantknights]

I think that the timing of classic couldn't have been better, because even those who have checked out (like me) have classic to come back to. And even if I'm not fully invested anymore, I still hop back on to hear the ambient noises and music of Dun Morogh, Elwynn Forest, etc. and kill a few dudes. I can't say I'm hopeful for the future, but seeing Metzen return does make me a bit less pessimistic.

[@cavemantero]

Bobby: You know what audience we need to tap into?....POKEMON. Steve: I think I can make it work. Bobby: Good boy Steve....good boy.

[@fuzkforyou]

@@vagrantknights just play a private server do you dont have to level and grind. Enjoy some PvP on a free server with good population and you dont have to pay blizard a cent They destroyed the game

[@ElCapitanGames]

I actually just came back after 10 years.

[@coldorange5]

I think everyone has missed the crucial issue: The WoW devs hate their audience. They know the audience is mostly 40 year old bald men but they don't want that. They want younger people and women. Problem is, I don't think its working. Its just alienating their audience.

[@nickchavez720]

That's the wrong group of people to alienate. Because those 40 year old men not only have money, but they have kids, nieces, nephews, little cousins, and brothers who they will introduce wow too. They're alienating the best advocates possible for the game. If they want younger audiences and women, the current audience is the best way to do it.

[@Arizonian312]

How could you possibly come to that conclusion support it with evidence I want to hear it

[@nungfish]

@@Arizonian312 LMAO

[@thecellhawk]

In other words, if a new Warhammer fantasy MMO was made rn, with similar gameplay to WoW, a lot of WoW players would flock to it, because Warhammer fantasy is the embodiment of WoW's original cool factor. And no, we don't talk about the End Times.

[@therealradagast]

Asmon is right about having certain characters you never directly interact with. Its exactly why in warhammer40k the emperor is so mysterious

[@Lelldorin84]

I agree. It allows people to fill in the blanks with their imagination and keeps the air of mystery.

[@arcturuszero9242]

Warhammer has absolutely done it correct. They’ve managed to tell all of their stories as if they are legends being told by a storyteller. Sure there are some facts that the stories are based on, but there’s always an air of mystery because you never know how much of the story is true. They literally baked it into the lore that pretty much all of the stories that you hear have potentially unreliable narrators. I know that the real world reason for them doing this is so that they don’t have to worry about contradicting themselves when writing new stories, but nonetheless the mysterious and intriguing vibe that they have created is nothing short of genius

[@benne6512]

that was the magnifiscence of the vanilla wow Titans, you only found their ruins and creation and facilites and clues, but never interacted with them so it always had that aura of mystery and them being on just another level of existence

[@Emidretrauqe]

I saw an illustration of orks driving a looted Golden Throne out to battle and forcing the Emperor to shoot laser beams out of his eyes at his own men. That image is still better in every way than WoW.

[@bman12453]

They went too big. Too complicated. Classic was down to earth. Immersive. Relatable. Simple. Fun.

[@samuel9294]

do u play classic? how many lvl 60 do u have there?

[@whiskoo9941]

you literally kill the god of fire. take off the rose tinted glasses dude.

[@iamsaiyan2532]

Classic is so dog shit. Amazing for its time. But brutal to play now

[@crowmaster9652]

@@iamsaiyan2532 retail is so easy that none of what you do matters everything being scaled makes the questing subjective the only thing you play retail for is endgame endlessly looking for higher keys and no meta exploring everything is predetermined whats the point of cosmetics if no one will look lol

[@CheckCeeOut]

I agree that the game is too big and hard to follow, but there’s a point where you have nothing left to gain and therefore have no reason to play.

[@geminitiger957]

As WotLK player, I haven't been invested in WoW's xpacs/storylines since Wrath... like after Cata, each xpac just felt like it was trying too hard - going bigger and bigger, more and more complex! I mean after Cata, you had time travel and different timelines, and space travel w/ steam punk looking space ships lol and at the end of each major xpac you're fighting some GOD. Wrath's story, as told through the Northrend questline, was just so localized and rich... Lich King was peppered throughout all the quest zones, making appearances in surprising ways. Eventually, all these quests and dungeons lead to ICC and there wasn't any complexity to it. Because WotLK didn't have a complex storyline, it didn't need to over explain anything and all the plot points wrote themselves. WotLK was so rich in lore. WoW hasn't been the same since.

[@rauusu]

"Your cool stuff should be heartfelt too" Made me think of that scene in W3 where Grom kills Mannaroth and frees his people. No words, all action.

[@rauusu]

To be fair, I haven't watched it in 15+ years. I don't remember the words. I remember the deeds.

[@blackwaltz463]

His dying words to Thrall and Thrall's response are some of the best writing in all of Warcraft history, if that scene was just action and no words it would be a lesser scene.

[@Cashinn_Outt1754]

If Blizzard redid that scene today it would be Grom Hugging Mannaroth and crying saying they misunderstood each other and now they can be friends to unite against some test tube baby who was produced to commit evil and somehow in two expansions they’d become misunderstood and we’d have some questline “Misunderstood Test Tube Babies”

[@TheManOnTheStreetOMG]

I LOVED the gritty tribalistic Horde, it was different to basic humans and classic fantasy. You played as the outcasts and monsters carving a life for themselves. The game is empty and soulless because they ran out of script and had to just write fanfiction. They also have you chasing seasonal goal posts like every other game nowadays.

[@CptMarkka]

That's why the classic era will always be better than whatever modern WoW is.

[@edwardhatfield5360]

Even violence for the sake of violence, or territorial disputes, is better than raising baby dragon welplings and doing pet battles. I really do think World of warcraft needs a bit more violence, not necessarily major faction cities being destroyed or world trees being burned. But something more interesting than "the enemies are in the raid, go get them".

[@raktul3697]

​@@edwardhatfield5360it needs WH40k levels of violence

[@Naraxis1433]

I always loved being the horde.. just because alliance seemed to be the good guys and the horde was just a bunch of misfits

[@captaintitus7711]

​@@Naraxis1433kinda disagree with ya Alliance being good guys.Both just morally grey.The real asshole to me in Alliance is Anduin Wrynn.Not a single thing about him is good,just a poser of a leader.

[@datemasamune2904]

I hated what they did to the Zandalari, and also hated how they made the Drachtyr another generic honor bound race. I'm not asking for Warhammer levels of hostility, but would be nice if they were a bit more unfriendly.

[@rubbishopinions6468]

Warcraft always had a great balance between hope and tragedy and a lot of the early art reflected that not only in Wow but in WC3 which outclassed its remaster. How you can look at the story of Arthas and turn the art into some Nickelodeon nonsense is beyond me. Grom Hellscream to a character that looks like a dull-witted overweight human with green skin.

[@marcuscreed3903]

Because to the writers. Masculinity bad and dumb and femininity is good a wholesome. They have the whole retail base playing barbie with dress up and mounts.

[@bhec7715]

Yeah and the story and world rules are now insanely convoluted to the point of senselessness. Like, Pandaria should just be wiped off the map. That area quite literally shouldn’t even exist. Neither should the Shadowlands.

[@asdasdasdasd61932]

the best warcraft remake lies inside starcraft 2 (its free) you can literally play the whole campaign again as a mod and its REALLY 100% true to detail ( even the cinematics got caarried in )

[@gmka3920]

No, theyve ben on a downtrend more and more tragedy and less and less hope

[@katm8128]

@@bhec7715Shadowlands is the worst thing they’ve added to the game, but imo I really enjoyed the lore Pandaria added. The pandas were a bit goofy from the start, but I grew to like them. Just wish the ingame models for them reflected the concept art in the art books of Chen stormstout

[@RushZone]

This can all be boiled down to one simple explanation... *Only a few of the original developers still work on the game and the rest have moved on or were fired.*

[@bruhmomento3105]

I wonder why a lot of them were removed,what event could have happened within blizzard?

[@pseudocode1]

​@@bruhmomento310525 years of time

[@BG-qk6ek]

Zero of the original developers

[@sadkat9162]

@@bruhmomento3105 hostile takeover under fake allegations

[@owlbusdumbledork9966]

Lovecraft did a great job at abstract horror. He would describe the monstrosities and their architecture as being illogical, as if they shouldn't be able to exist in reality (he did it much better than that sentence), and because the evil is something so abstract and so unknowable to you, it's significantly more frightening than something quantifiable and describable.

[@angussharington2374]

It is not only masculinity, remember Jaina? She wanted to flood Orgrimmar and kill everybody in it? Or Sylavans? Until she got danusered? Lillian Voss during Cata? Even Vanessa vanCleef, Liadrin or Maiev were kinda badass. We just need better written characters, doesn't matter if male or female, as long as they have a great backstory and are represented in game.

[@eliashautala7450]

Tbh asmon is completely wrong by saying the game should have no feelings. I agree that its way too much right now, but there should still be cinematics now and then where the characters actually speak and open up and not only fight and seem like brutes with an iq level of about 5😂

[@huggablepenguin1465]

@@DeadManWalking-ym1oo She lost EVERYTHING. You could argue that pushed her over the edge.

[@Shrews85]

​@@eliashautala7450I agree. I'd love to see characters talk about their feelings, but probably less often to give it more impact. I also think the timing and outcome is unrealistic. People don't talk about their feelings when a bigger threat is facing them, and don't fix their depression immediately by talking about it.

[@Shrews85]

I think masculinity is part of it,but not the whole thing. The game absolutely needs big sweaty shirtless dudes and bigger shields. The masculine "vibe" of people doing badass things is what needs to happen. Unironically Sylvanus was probably the most masculine character for a bit. It's just all the framing and suddenly being good that was the problem.

[@ElKabong3345]

The problem is that the writers just *flood* you with whatever it is the fans ask. If you want feels? There'll be 20 writers that do just that, while putting no fighting. Next expansion, if you ask for fighting? That's all they'll write with absolutely no feels. If you ask for inclusivity? Completely flooded with it. Daddy-issue quests? Nonstop just that.

[@tzanax]

I have never had as much fun in WoW as I did fighting Blackhand for the first time in WoD. That felt epic and badass and we're trying to outbadass this badass. Incredible fight.

[@AGFilms1296]

I loved in Talador his cinematic after his roar of “DIDNT ANYONE TELL YOU NOT TO PLAY WITH FIRE?!” Such an epic yell line, the VA really brought Blackhand to life as the war hungry badass that he is. I need more shit like that. Not some dragon crying about what he lost in the past that we already know about. Dragons used to be these awesome powerful creatures and they’ve been reduced to this.

[@vdarklord1]

Wow, you made me remember such an amazing fight i had with this boss, the arena. The last phase all is just the best feeling i had in raiding Pah! Dead.

[@octavioavila6548]

I see World of Warcraft is turning into League of Legends style fantasy

[@ikuep]

The truth is a lot of us don't care about the lore as much as the game but we still care about the vibe. We still want a badass Lich King or Illidan type character being badasses and not just characters that are constantly sighing and having calm conversations.

[@dukemagnum4615]

Game needs a Anton Churgah for real man…

[@bhec7715]

I mean, Warcraft, Diablo, and StarCraft stood out because of the storytelling. The story is just bad now. Like why is Pandaria even a thing? Why are there Pandas as a playable race? 😂🤦🏻‍♂️

[@averageuser54]

Have you seen Fyrakk? That guy is insane

[@averageuser54]

​@@bhec7715You mean Pandaria as a continent or as an expansion?

[@loneirregular1280]

​@bhec7715 pandaria had a better lore behind it than anything post-Legion... I stopped caring about the lore of WoW since BfA, things went terrible since.

[@qqchan]

You should only ever tip your toes in cosmic horror (or anything like that). Whenever you make it an everyday thing, it becomes banal, boring. And you can’t really relate to it either. It becomes nothing.

[@Dr.Stock.]

Ranked pvp/arena with ZERO entry requirements…character level completely irrelevant. Gear provided by the faction for the battle. Players get free choice of free gear to match play style. Rewards are cosmetic, or have PVE or unranked PVP implications. Sign up, log in, play. New players of skill have NO ramp period. When they want to do PVE, they can simply just go do it.

[@Tgruss]

I think cosmic themes and systems only work if they are a backdrop for good characters and interesting conflicts between those characters. The factions should add some characterization too, different philosophies and ideas, and not all be California’s idea of right and wrong.

[@Arizonian312]

They tried that w/ BfA but player base will complain no matter what it's impossible for anyone who isn't lost in the culture war sauce to figure out what you want just explain it simply

[@maxmagnus377]

"I think a character should never ever talk about their feelings in a wow cinematic." Old Soldier though...

[@malcovich_games]

There could be an exception in cases where they can talk about their feelings AFTER they’ve shown the badassery.

[@walmartian422]

Funny how the aesthetics of videogames drastically changed in total opposition to how the actual world we inhabit evolved. IRL is more savage, violent and deranged yet all games are attempting to be extremely goofy carefree and cheerful.

[@aazaroth1421]

"profits doesn't care about ur feelings" - Activision blizzard probably.

[@marcodallolio9746]

profits dont care about anything at all, it turns out. Not even the long term survival of the species on this planet

[@RosefMudson1414]

that is true and wtf is a vibe check

[@jani14jani]

Though Bliz would make more profit if it added warcraft back to current whimpcraft

[@TearThatRedFlagDown]

With what Blizzard has been doing, that's just short term profits. On the long term, if they keep this up and stick with Soycraft then it's eventually going to be less profitable.

[@MATCHLESS789]

What profit? Blizzard ran WoW into the ground, together with their all other franchises. Do you think it's a coincidence they're going hard on monetization in every game of theirs the last few years?

[@KudzoArt]

I remember the BFA cutscene for the Darkshore event; where Malfurion strangles and buries a Horde alive.... It was so unexpected given the surprising, overly passive demeanour of the expansion and the Night Elves in Legion being rather fluffy and overly soft too. I was hyped. I thought there was a shift coming, Warcraft going back to its more badass roots. But nothing. In fact I think everything since that cutscene, for me at least, has been an embarrassment. To even call it Warcraft now is a joke. My roleplay friends on Argent Dawn delivered a stellar half year of Night Elf worldbuilding post Teldrassil burning though. Blizzard needed to take a leaf out the RP communities' books.

[@DsiakMondala]

Ah yes that time both Malfurion and Tyranda lost to a lowly hunter

[@Azuller]

The Dragonball comparision was spot on. Be honest with yourselves DBZ fans. How many times does Goku or whatever protagonist need to charge up and get more powerful until it reaches the line of absurdity. He's not saying the show isnt good or fun to watch. It's just that the power scaling has gone too far that it's just to much

[@hypethekomodo6495]

I agree with the arc with Wrathion and Sabellian. Wrathion was this proper badass who is doing everything in his power to stop the spread of corruption that doomed his father. Sab single handedly saved what he knew what was left of the Black Dragonflight by keeping them save in Outland and manipulating adventurers into killing the Gronn. Then in DF they both act like spoiled rotten babies while Ebonhorn is literally the only sane one. Hell I still can't get over how Sab thought a stupid spear would just one shot a Primal Dragon. All while both still, after knowing everything that happens, look up to their daddy and hope for his approval. It's so weird. I don't know why they went that arc. Such wasted potential.

[@Andreslashfully]

I was asking myself "wtf is this emo shit" when I was doing the main campaign and Wrathion and Sabellian started with those dialogues. Cringefest material.

[@Escorducarla]

God that arc sucked. There was a really interesting choice to be made between the three of them. Wrathion had been on Azeroth, involved, but he's still a baby. Sabellian is older, and yeah, he moved to Outland, but he cleansed and preserved his dragons, and more importantly, he CAME BACK WITH EGGS. (Don't even get me started on the fact that only one of the aspects has living consorts. They have a serious population problem and it's been kind of glossed over.) Ebonhorn is levelheaded, but he's been incredibly isolated and has never had to deal with the group dynamics that would come with governing a dragonflight. There's real choice there. But then two of the three pivot and pussy out because...reasons? What a crappy way to tell a story. The writers wanted who they wanted, so it just happens. It makes no sense, but it happens.

[@benne6512]

a daddy isues person wrote that arc

[@Arizonian312]

No I mean from my view wrathion is the impation rash strongheaded one but sab is the wise calculating one and that's the dynamic they've been on so I don't get where you're coming from

[@Aedrion-]

The only thing that'll unsink this Titanic is a MASSIVE change in direction on EVERY level - More evergreen activities - More worthwhile core game activities - A massive change to the story and tone - A step away from tokens and systems and all the convoluted reward systems. - A better levelling experience - More unique feeling classes and playstyles - A consistent and engaging open world to adventure in - Moving away from a glorified lobby game and back toward a living MMO Will this happen? No, probably not. But I'm still curious to see if with Metzen, the ship will float some meters toward the surface, or if it'll just continue sinking.

[@SchnauzerPower17]

remember in blackrock they have dragons hanging on the wall by hooks. they wouldnt do that again now

[@jaihummel5057]

So true

[@venalleader2909]

a character talking about how they feel is one of the cardinal sins of good writing. You are not supposed to be on the nose, like that. How a character feels should be evident to the reader/viewer in their actions and their dialogue.

[@crowmaster9652]

the consistency of certain races being favored over others *cough blood elves and races that copy the blood elf model(void elves) cough cough dranei got it the worst since they are the least favored class in the game period

[@TrafalgarWaterDLaw-dl5cm]

I think the issue arises when every interaction in a fantasy mmorpg becomes touchy feely. You gotta keep in mind that this is a game, not a novel. Good games ballance good dialogue with badass and exiting scenes that touch players like Asmon. There is also the show dont tell aspect where instead of two chsracters chatting you let their actions speak. An example was Wc3 Arthas who constantly spoke about how he felt while saving his Kingdom in stratholme, chasing down a demon he thought responsible, before he lost his entire soul by touching frostmourne and even as a DK. But instead of long drawn out convetsations full of sighs it only took pne or two sentences to convey the entire messages. Modern wow gave us meaningful good cinematics with Saurfang. It was less long drawn out sighs and fluff talk, it was an actuall message. As a problem can also be alot of pointless talk to fill a scene, rather then something impactful. I personally don't mind the person to person conversations as it fleahes out characters. But i also roleplay and thus invest my own time characterizing and fleshing out chars. But being realistic amd objective it is important to note that as a game you NEED to ballance it more. And diversify the way you write convetsations. So far 90% of the DF cinematics are long talk about how i feel, insert deep sigh, another long sentence. Lots of turning your back etc. It's very monotone.

[@crowmaster9652]

@@TrafalgarWaterDLaw-dl5cm its basically a interactive novel

[@crowmaster9652]

@@echomjp If I wanted to read a cutscene with nothing but dialogue I would read a hard copy lul

[@venalleader2909]

@@echomjp there are always exceptions to the rule, but writers in general should not write dialogue where the characters are just telling each other how they feel. It's flat and boring.

[@jelksautox]

Honestly the option to choose to side with Sylvannas and it actually having an effect (albeit a small one) on the player’s game experience was one of the best options Blizzard did. Where you allowed the players to choose in game their plot. Same can be said to an extent with the N’Zoth Corruption. Being able if you wanted to be straight up chaotic or borderline evil was a nice fresh of breath. Shame they havn’t expanded upon that.

[@Angelfyre.]

Deathwings monologue in the Cataclysm Cinematic was so good

[@heldane778]

The best time in WoW was when Garrosh and Varian were the leaders of their respective factions. THAT was WARcraft, not this carebear love and hugs joke we have today.

[@Draedson]

I'm just apathetic to wow because everything I learned from the lore growing up means nothing now. It keeps getting changed every expac and when a new story beat happens I can't take it serious knowing it will be different next expac

[@silkroad9991]

Oh boy, you know shit's gone from bad to worse when people start reminiscing about how much better WoD was...

[@Harakanis]

As someone who loved wc3 and played wow "back in the old days" for me the biggest issue is how wow was a continuation of the warcraft where I was the protagonist I cared about Illidan, Arthas, Thrall because I WAS THEM I culled stratholme, I defeated the legion and wow was a continuation of all those stories I lived as a protagonist in warcraft 2 and 3 But the way the game progressed you're just a bystander witnessing stories happening to OTHER people And it's just impossible to care about those in the same way

[@bhec7715]

Good point.

[@gorochaan]

The simple difference between now and then is: in classic wow game was not taking your hand and put everything for you on a silver platter. You had to explore, discover and read about lore while travelling. Now you have cinematic after cinematic. Nothing is complicated at any point and there is no more detail to what is happening.

[@VetBodGaming]

There's only one thing that would bring me back to WoW right now. A complete world wipe and rebuild based on OG game designs with modern graphics.

[@Nolsie]

WoW Classic Remastered, similar to D2R. That's the dream.

[@kobe4212]

theyd still find a way to fuck it up@@Nolsie

[@lemhanback9595]

I was thinking of rejoining the game for the Classic content until they mentioned Cata Classic was in the works 🙄 nope Blizzard doesn't understand where they messed up.

[@32bitpins73]

@@lemhanback9595 Try the Turtle WoW private server, they've improved Classic talents, whilst also adding new quests, zones, dungeons and factions. It's basically Classic+

[@zorashki]

WoW classic is trash. not even good.. nostalgia is killing you, It's slow/clunky/lame. Atleast BC/Wotlk maybe. @@Nolsie

[@tac100001]

I think we just shifted too far into emotions first actions barely ever, and I'm usually the first person to WANT characters to emotionally connect to. Asmon was right about Zappy Boy being a good way to do emotions first for a character but I'll help him out and say Saurfang made me give a shit about him in those same cinematic and he was waaaay more action first talking after. You know everything he feels just from his acting and expressions and it makes you care immediately even as hes crushing some soldier's head

[@DexLuther]

Cyberpunk is also not even half the game they lied about it being all the way up to release. Cyberpunk 2077 is the new and worse No Man's Sky, but at least Hello Games owned up to their mistakes and have worked hard for years to make up for it and actually make the features they had promised and then some. On the other hand, CDPR marketed a game, sold 25% of what they said the game would be, never owned up to it (except for some bugginess), and now are *SELLING* DLC for a game they never finished in the first place. The worst thing is it's basically an M-rated PG-13 (or PG-16 at the most) game. EDIT: Oh and the fact that people act like just because they fixed some bugs that it's a better game now, is just sad. It's not a better game. It's still devoid of most of the content they talked about it having. I'd a linear game on a big map of a pretty city with nothing really interesting to see or do. And then people wonder why developers keep putting out broken, unfinished games that are missing features.

[@drageras]

The word Asmon is looking for is direction. In movies direction is extremely important, with a good film director making or breaking the experience for the viewer. There is a reason certain people love Christopher Nolan movies, or some like Quentin Tarantino, and sci fi fans love Neil Blomkamp's work. The direction of an artistic project is how it is supposed to make the person experiencing it feel. In terms of Blizzard's recent work, there has been a SERIOUS issue with how they want people to feel and what the end result ends up being. Most players would argue the last time they cared about the lore was in Legion. And I would argue that is the last time the game direction felt decent. The buildup to the other world of Argus, taking on these space opera style threats, Illidan and Velen going through their respective character arcs. WoW's story has never been S tier, but it was at least decent back then, with no "My secret plan is amazing", "No, MY secret plan is amazing", "Wait I did everything to protect you", "Wait I was controlled the entire time". They have stopped even trying to write decently, just aiming to do twist reveals constantly. Hiding the narrative from YOUR OWN PLAYERS just alienates them. There is no reason the story can't be shown to the players. It's not spoiling anything for us, just gets us more hyped. All it does it reduce the amount of time we have to be angry about a stupid decision. But WoW's problems aren't recent, I'd argue that it's narrative really was dying since WoTLK, considering how they wrote themselves into a hole. The general shift wasn't only to this twist asspull type writing, but also a general lack of what made Warcraft popular in the first place. And no the Warcraft franchise was never a gritty grimdark fantasy like Diablo like some people claim it was. The original RTS about the conflict between the races that made up the world, and the struggle between them, the alliances formed, things put aside for the greater good, and the seeking of power by individuals who desired it. These were epic conflicts between each group that changed each race fundamentally, forever. WoW's inception was placing a player character into this world, as a lone adventurer, journeying and murder-hoboing across the huge landscape and becoming a famed member of a group that took on some of the world's issues. It felt very cozy and relaxed, the stakes were not immense, you were helping the local townspeople with their problems, fighting against the alliance or horde for honor or justice, it was grounded. And then the game was done, or so we thought. Then came the next expansion TBC , dealing with one of the biggest events in the Warcraft universe. And then came the NEXT expansion WoTLK, dealing with the OTHER biggest event in the Warcraft universe. They moved through the biggest events in warcraft history like that, and for many people the story ended there. I understand they couldn't have milked those events forever, but to go through them so quickly, and with a very minimal buildup to the next expansion, it was a wasted opportunity. The following expansions invented a new big bad ultimate villain each time, there was definitely hype for cataclysm and its total upheaval of the warcraft world, and MoP, despite its overall goofy setting and tone, actually had some quite good writing put into it. After this came WoD, which writing-wise was horrid, people felt like everything was reaching levels of ridiculous and ofc they completely cut its development and killed the game at the time. But this killing was planned, and they triage-d WoD for what was to come... Finally came Legion, which was really the LAST effort for WoW, it was the "going all out, giving the players everything they want expansion". It dealt with the last thread of the burning crusade, the final threat of sargeras and his army that we had been dealing with. Bringing back all the old characters players loved, and what I mentioned above, with the direction being stellar for the average player. Ever since, the game has felt hollow with all of the actual threats the players caring about being dealt with; the characters they loved either gone, taken in a strange direction to basically assasinate them, or just forgotten about. The lore feels like it was written for a feminist teenage novel series now, rather than a gripping and power driven story. Keep in mind warcraft was NEVER a super dark ultra brutal story, but the current state of WoW feels like its completely afraid to touch anything but the most placid of subject matters. And it comes back to direction. Somehow, someway, the game has ended up at this point. Maybe it's to appeal to shareholders, maybe its the influence of the newer developers on the game. But whatever the reason is, it does not resonate with the players and longtime fans of the franchise. This is the same reason Starfield feels bland and hollow versus the world of Cyberpunk 2077. In order to make your players feel SOMETHING you have to make some sort of a stance, make some sort of conflict or opinion, and bring it to a resolution, not just have the "new" big bad who wants power like the old big bad. It's the same reason why Marvel movies have fallen out of favor, with no more complex characters, just the same old tired stories with the new flavor of the month minority to appeal to more demographics. This is why games like Cyberpunk and Red Dead 2 have become so popular, and are reknowned for their complex, grittier, more emotional stories. They are polarizing to some, but they hit raw to the core human experience. But as we know, for large companies like Blizzard and Bethesda, they are simply just too afraid of taking any form of narrative creativity or stance in order to appeal to the most amount of people. If you stand for everything, you stand for nothing.

[@kwando472]

You should publish your book through a agency next time.

[@drageras]

@@kwando472 lmao I def wrote too much

[@Failedwizard1]

@@drageras You didn't write too much, you hit the nail on the head better than I've seen anyone do, you summed up what is so wrong about current WoW's narrative and how we got here in full 100% 4K ultra high-res; you deserve a bloody medal.

[@drageras]

@@Failedwizard1 thank you! I just wanted to get my thoughts down on what I felt was missing from the game

[@francescoporcari8597]

​@@drageras this is a comprehensive analysis. In general the attention span is low, and that's why people can't really appreciate long and deep comments.

[@KaldwinUnderscore]

This is completely tangential to any point, but I love that Asmon says Wrathion is "one of the best new characters in the game" Wrathion has been in WoW for nearly 2/3 of the game's lifespan. He was added into the game 12 years ago. But for a lot of people, anything after Wrath ended is still "New WoW" regardless of how long it's been in the game. Not a problem per se, I just found that funny

[@Runenschuppe]

That's because there was a major design revision in the middle of WotLK. And everything after that really is "New WoW".

[@whiskoo9941]

the in game store Aware@@Runenschuppe

[@pabloaragon3303]

He is "new" because they did nothing with him since mop.

[@KaldwinUnderscore]

@@pabloaragon3303 They also did nothing with Illidan between Cata and Legion, but nobody called him a new npc

[@pinkskie5536]

@@KaldwinUnderscore Because Illidan was from WC3, existing prior to even WoW. Unlike Wrathion, who existed in WoW but was largely relegated to small roles.

[@coreyloucks4865]

I don’t think you quite know the difference between high and low fantasy. I’d consider game of thrones low fantasy, yeah its got dragons and magic, but unlike world of Warcraft and lord of the rings, it doesn’t have different fantasy races, magic is also kinda in the background of game of thrones. Game of thrones is mostly about humans and politics until in the books the more darker magic and stuff creep up underneath.

[@looper4413]

Modern WoW really feels like it's been completely taken over by what people imagine Californians are like. Everything is therapy talk and solving problems through discussing things. You can't have anything left that would appeal to the average man anymore because that's just how it is in current year (even though WoW was at its peak when it appealed exactly to that audience).

[@xxsemb]

too many woke quota filling staff members caused this.

[@celeswylder748]

California is a good comparison. Everyone is lead to believe in the "Sunny California" lie while in reality there's so many two faced and corrupt people in charge in California, and a huge division between the rich and the poor. The dynamic is something Blizzard could really learn from for some realistic and gritty world building where everyone fights, but nobody ever really wins.

[@Sharkofspace]

The real problem is that you guys are too busy crying about lgbt and muh culture war to actually add anything of value to the conversation.

[@bullwhiz650]

@@celeswylder748 when you find out Blizzard is Headquartered in California

[@xxsemb]

we see the result of woke culture with stuff like this@@Sharkofspace

[@trevor557]

We sandwich 2-5 hours of questing with little narrative depth between 2-5 minute cinematics to explain some cool/crazy/complex cosmic narrative plot that they could have actually allowed us play out in a quest instead. They make us the Heroes of Azeroth and back seat us while the parents have a conversation at the kitchen table while peeking into the room we're in every now and then and petting us on the head for being a good boy.

[@amazinghayes1]

They neeed to make it so that the player isnt the champion of the universe and youre able to take out 30 mobs in one go with little to no push back. I had to solo Steelsnap yesterday as a warrior and with a mixture of bandages, fears, parrys and luck i scraped it out with 17 hp. Those are the moments.

[@berkebus]

You look at all the tweets and interviews Chris Metzen gave, that guy WAS the vibe check of WoW, always has been. They lost him, they lost the vibe, it's never coming back unless he comes back. Now he has, but who knows if they will allow him to do what he did before. We'll see.

[@Gundalf]

@@Leunenkoenig Yes, like people like you or me, he made some bad decisions, but in the end, he's the real reason we love Warcraft.

[@berkebus]

I fully agree that the Thrall questline in Cataclysm was pure garbage, but Metzen was never good at individual character storylines. He's a great worldbuilder, a macro writer, whom needs good micro writers (Christie Golden) as support if he wants to tell more personal stories.@@Leunenkoenig

[@MGrey-qb5xz]

I doubt it considering he's surrounded by millennials, aka the most neutered gen ever

[@jameskim1505]

We need about 2 genocides for that vibe comes back

[@Cashinn_Outt1754]

Seems like he is all steam ahead with the “muh feelings” era of Warcraft. I don’t think he’d allow it to happen to his IP if he didn’t approve of it. War Within looks more “muh feelings” than even DF. There’s nothing new about sagas either… Cata - WoD was the Garrosh Soul Saga for example. Maybe he’s just getting old… naturally the testosterone levels are dropping and he’s obviously empathetic to the muh feelings people as he’s been public about depression and feelings

[@Grundich]

The previous team in Wow was all about camaraderie, but now, the dynamics have shifted to a different kind of team. In the classic version, discovering a level 50 weapon was exhilarating and it stood as the best weapon, making the game more about the journey. However, today, the focus has shifted to playing until reaching the maximum level, then dedicating time to farming equipment. This makes the path to max level feel more like a requirement than an enjoyable journey.

[@tohvin10blorg30]

Most of the recent expansions have the path to the endgame content as an after thought. The story line, the focus, the equipment, it all unfolds once you hit level cap with next to nothing for the road to that point.

[@tgo1848]

Classic is the proof that is not only wow fault but mostly the players, they want the endgame content i mean cmon look at any classic server there is a reason power leveling exists, after the honey moon time stopped in classic all of those cool low level things lost the shine and as per usual the optimization meta settled in

[@S2pidMedia]

I remember reading posts on the forums where people would actually be in their feelings about old story lines. It's a video game about factional warfare, and people are offended that there are some brutal characters in said game. No surprise the game has gone woke.

[@TimeTravel-0]

Being this early means I need to fix my sleep schedule

[@Christopher_Rivera]

Facts lol

[@badwolfxd3593]

Enjoy the sunrise, I say

[@lvledzo9393]

You didn't have to say anything 😅

[@The-Chaos-Agent]

I work early so this is amazing for me

[@superbnns]

I will say, that one set of quests with the old ass dragon (I forget his name but hes a dwarf) talking about what it was like when the war with the black dragonflight broke out and how he had to kill his best friend/wife was good. Despite being just dialogue bubbles, it worked in its favor as an old man remembering his younger years and passing down his knowledge and experiences.

[@DarthSoto78]

I have barely played WoW this year. This year has been the year of single player games for me. So many good single player games came out this year that felt like they needed my time rather than doing the same thing every day in WoW like it is a second job.

[@damenlapalm5609]

Legit question as someone who stopped playing at the end of wrath. With Metzen back, could an actual reset for retail work? Lorewise, maybe Yogg won, drove our characters mad, and everything after Ulduar has been our minds going crazy. It's a bit of a cop out, sure, but it could allow the world and the team to rewind the design clock and move forward from a better foundation. Like, the opening of the newest expansion is us waking up inside of Yogg's prison, being rescued and escaping Ulduar, only to walk out and see Storm Peaks overrun with the Old God's thralls.

[@Dilllll26]

Resetting back that far would be silly. Furthest you could go is saying we lost to nzoth in BfA but even now after DF that would feel weird. I don’t think the old gods mental prison puts you in a happy dragon flying island where everyone is talking about their feelings :p

[@naer3513]

Can't argue with that, it's an intresting idea!

[@Luxorcist]

For me personally, one of the things that ruined the game is all the RP that happens when you're doing things. If i think back to old WoW like Vanilla, BC, WotLK, those games almost had a Souls game type story telling where the story is told through the quest text and not through a million cutscenes and NPC dialog during the quests. There are instances of that happening, but it was mostly up to the player to take the time to read and interpret what's happening. I was more interested in the journey my character was on than whatever beef the NPCs have with each other. It seems like they've shift the focus from your character to whichever NPC you're helping at any time. The story narrative being injected into every aspect of the game ruins it for me, like they're spoon feeding me stuff i don't really care about. The leveling in WoW is unnecessary now except to tell the story and it feels like more of a chore than an adventure. Old WoW had some mystery to it, not just plot twists.

[@Runenschuppe]

That's not Role Playing though. It's actually the opposite of that. Because here you are not slipping into a role and experiencing and exploring the world around you through those different eyes, instead you are allowed to button mash a few times between watching the daytime TV soap drama of the dev's self-inserts. So ironically what you actually miss is the RP factor in the game, YOUR journey, instead of what people are trying to sell you as RP.

[@Fydron]

Old wow felt like cool shit happened around you but now your character is THE God Emperor commander of the universe with powers of Goku/Emperor of mankind himself which to me atleast makes whole thing extremely boring and uninteresting. Personally i just want to be a simple adventurer not the centre focus of the story.

[@NikukaiFightOn]

Brother, Wrath was extremely RP lol. Playing wrath classic really reminds me of how much the NPCs would just talk, and talk, and talk, and talk, during quest moments. So many quests where you sit there and wait for massive paragraphs from the NPC. Drakuru in Drak'tharon Keep for example. Or Jaina during the ICC dungeons. I actually prefer the cinematics, but I just wish the things that happened in the cinematics were interesting.

[@Luxorcist]

@@NikukaiFightOn Youre right, Wrath was like beginning of the excessive RP

[@slow9573]

The transition starting 1:03:48 from Warcraft 3 artstyle to WoW retail artstyle is disgusting. I didn't realize how much they have murdered my boy.

[@neighborhoodpizzaguy]

The bald man has reawakened from his slumber to deliver content to his people. Blessed be this day and long live the bald man.

[@greyknight5823]

I looked but all I could see was a 👍 cool streamer 👍 with lots of hair 👍

[@hunterculpepper1973]

He uploads daily

[@hunterculpepper1973]

Some times 2 to 3 videos a day

[@ilbv5]

*sigh* Long live the bald man

[@jacklarsen4]

sylvannas's power creep happening off screen made her essentailly toying with bolvar(lich king) seem very incongruent at the time as i recall. I member thinking it was pretty lame.

[@siskavard]

The cutscenes should be something of a reward for completing a questline, something to look forward to because you know you're about to see an epic, brutal conclusion to the story you just were a part of. In Dragonflight every cutscenes is the same boring characters standing around talking to each other, they're like ads in the middle of a KZbin video that I try and skip over as fast as possible. That's definitely not a good thing.

[@Spketlaban]

haven't played wow for 1 year, feels good man

[@magikarpslapper759]

Feelsgoodman 💪

[@demetter7936]

I just treat it like a casual game, not a job. I play 4-5 hours a week, leveling alt characters and questing for the story, but I don't get involved in life draining activities like raids or pay attention to things like i-lvl.

[@Stticka]

WoW isn't glory or death it's just hugs now

[@hylanderOP]

Modern wow is a lot like Disney star wars IMO. Its looks like wow but it just isn't the same thing anymore fundamentally.

[@HanaTheSloth]

Ideological subversion has many far reaching effects. The neutering of WarCraft is one of them.

[@skibidi.G]

..."the first one being demoralization, it takes from 15 to 20 years to demoralize a nation"... Yuri was right 😁

[@joeparas]

A recent example that epitomizes this sentiment for me in modern WoW is Alexstrasza in the DF loading screens (badass dommy mommy) vs Alexstrasza in game (emotional, bleeding heart cringe bot).

[@felinaotsu3161]

NGL that portrayal just never sat well with me. I recalled in WoTLK she was willing to kill Malygos, her fellow aspect in a sense her brother, because he was threatening Azeroth with his magic-hoarding crap. Not to directing her flight to swoop in and purify the area of the Wrathgate in fire I do see this current Alexstrasza being able to do any of that. I see DF Alex sitting like a dasmel begging Malygos to stop his actions. Yes, Alexstrasza and the Red are all about life. But their task is to -protect- life as well as nourish it.

[@phatymcdaddy]

​​@@felinaotsu3161I mean, yea she did all that, and look at the ramifications after the fact. It's almost like she is cautious now with her decision. There's a long list of decisions like that that's almost wiped dragons

[@joeparas]

@@phatymcdaddy you can't rationalise like that in fiction. If she made 'bad' decisions that almost 'wiped out dragons' it's because the writers give everyone else plot armour. How she can even stomach the sight of orcs baffles me.

[@тоска-р1о]

i thought alexstrasza as a bit of an emotional cringer in cata though, not a lot, there was a lot of badassery with her with deathwing, but like, some things people did make fun of her writing lol

[@Escorducarla]

Alexstrasze in game has spent most of DF apologizing to everyone for being a dragon. Her weird dragon guilt thing is creepy and I want none of it.

[@Momoka7]

36:00 Teron Gorefiend. The interesting part is, Teron Gorefiend was a orc, that died and using a ceremony his soul got inserted into a dead human Paladin from the Alliance. You can still see him in the Black Temple raid in BC. There is a whole quest chain there, that gives allot more insight into him, really dark and cool to do.

[@DrHakennase]

I hope Chromie ffs up the timeline somehow and we get set back to the first time we met her in Andorhal with lvl 50ish in Classic

[@domehammer]

Then we kill Chromie.

[@Escorducarla]

I'm so over Chromie. Fun little occasional side character, way overused.

[@benne6512]

they ruined Chromie with her short story

[@farkle4207]

I remember when the undead captured people and tested the plague on them to see what would happen.

[@whiteflame24]

This is what happens when you think that making a game more palatable for every single minor group of people that plays is the right direction and it never is.

[@lunarwhitefox]

When people at Blizzard stop reading Twitter accounts like Baal or Portergauge, maybe we can have a good story.

[@Abingdale]

My fave thing about WoW was leveling. Loved the journey. End game wasn’t for me. They took that away and so I lost interest- except I loved legion for the expansive stuff you could do as a chronic casual player.

[@jasongarcia7731]

Howis it that the game looks so badazz in the movie but when it comes to actually playing the physical game, it looks like you’re walking through a Fortnite adventure and everybody’s body structure looks like a dwarf?

[@jonathanadams5903]

To be fair, warcraft started down this path when Thrall came across the Tauren fighting the Quilboar and didn't think 'the steak is fighting the ham, now all we gotta do is cook.'

[@Krohn117]

A good example of a higher power existing in the shadows was The Forerunners in Halo. The only thing we had seen were ancient structures and writing in the first 3 games and it made for a captivating mystery of what came before and are there still some out there. Once 4 came out and gave them a face it took all that mystery away. Good lore was made of it but it definitely killed a big part of what made Halo amazing.

[@Primalgale]

Going to add another example: Harry Potter books. Voldemort up through book four was a crazy, spooky, villian that know one even new about. In the worldbuilding no one would even really say his name. Then comes book 5-7 and we get to see more Voldemort and he is kinda meh as a charecter.

[@l.christoffersen7502]

The Foreskinners

[@tony9099]

Ya i miss the old WoW not cuz of nostalgia anymore, its more how adventurous it felt compared too now, back then i was an adventurer traveling the world fighting world creatures not space or cosmic creatures, I miss walking in my home world finding treasures left behind by normal people and finding ancient artifacts left behind and entering dungeons of ancient creatures or powerful monsters that were BORN in our world, but now we’re traveling through space, going to the underworld, having abilities that makes us look like anime characters or final fantasy looking abilities instead of swinging a simple sword or shooting a sinple arrow , firing a nice small frostbolt, now we’re fighting alien creatures dealing with cosmic powers, being treating like a GOD instead of a normal adventurer, and now our old zones from our own home world like kalimdor or eastern kingdoms feel non existent, no one goes there no one quest there, no high lvl or low lvl players enter kalimdor or eastern kindgoms at all, i understand why high lvl players dont visit those old zones but new players dont visit them either,

[@thorlaus]

We need people like Othmar Garithos

[@Ilasperr]

instead of zug zug it became hug hug

[@greyknight5823]

Me is that kind of orc! 🥰

[@saudalrowayeh9603]

Im balding and just bought cargo... pants.

[@wishonafish]

Legion was like the last decent xpac to me. after that felt like just went downhill esp with the 8milliom side grinds u have to do to have a relevant toon, raiding isnt enough anymore. take me back to "rejection of the gift" vibes

[@realmweavergaming7129]

Where WoW went wrong was showing the magic trick. A magic trick can be cool and badass but as soon as you learn how it’s done, the mystery and wonder start to disappear. WoW went too far into the cosmic forces of the Warcraft universe and explained it. A little of cosmic battles are fine like the old gods and Legion. WoD time travel and Shadowlands was a mistake. It should have all been grounded in Azeroth. Also yeah the touchy feeling stuff also ruined the story.

[@SUPERVANS56]

Pre-Skyrim TES games, I think, did a pretty good job of weaving the high level esoteric, cosmological stuff into the games. Things like the Numidium and Mehrunes Dagon trying to invade worked well because they were weaving into the lower level, more grounded parts of the world, and didn't take up a lot of screen time, but when it does happen, it's a big deal. And TES has a lot of crazy, whacky lore.

[@stupidlizard4764]

Currently playing Morrowind and I must say that 2002 were not a year from pussycats. You want some creepy cult? How about crazy aggressive sleep deprived elves cannibals who eating rotten flesh of plague zombies and turning into an eldritch horrors under influence some creepy ancient wizard with godhood ambitions? And if you try to talk to one of them, who didn't turn into monster yet, they will tell you about really messed up plans of their leader and a God. Morrowind did a great job showing far elven lands. Great lore, complex culture and community and horrific mysteries of dark magic. I love this game

[@feathur5]

Morrowind’s story is top tier in so many ways.

[@adamnelson7125]

I completely agree with your hard hitting point about ego and knowing better than the developer. I feel VERY strongly that it is also the need to include people who may not realize they do not improve the product. But at that point it is too late!

[@gadman85]

Thinking about it, I have a good example of how WoW was cool at one time. I first heard about WoW when I was in college. It was an ROTC guy talking about how badass it was before class started on one of the days they wore full uniform.

[@cavemantero]

1:07:52 - Bobby: You know what audience we need to tap into?....POKEMON. Steve: I think I can make it work. Bobby: Good boy Steve....good boy.

[@darthimperious1594]

Asmongold knowing Gandalf's true name was very much an unexpected pleasure!

[@Vroxi]

As soon as the switch flipped from Wrath to Cata, something just felt off. It was obviously Wow but.. it didn't feel like Wow anymore probs due to the new engine just being different in a lot of details. For example the camera placement, or the size of the maps, or the weather effects, or the character models. This is without getting into core gameplay changes. And ever since they just got further and further away from "that" WoW we all fell in love with..

[@Vroxi]

The artistic style also drastically changed in this time. We went from something resembling Lord of the Rings in style to something resembling a cute fairy tale. Look at humans pre Cata, they were striving for a much more serious style in OG wow. Not this big nose red cheeked goofy look we have today I'm sorry. The world felt serious, it felt dangerous. It had the fantasy vibe we all wanted.. Now it no longer has that vibe at all. Just look at the original cinematics vs todays cinematics. That's all the proof you need. The OG Wow cinematic is the style it SHOULD have evolved into.