Worst Part of Black Widow? David Harbour's Childish Socialism.

David Harbour thinks socialism is great. He's wrong.
On this short edition of Out of Frame, we explore the Black Widow character “Red Guardian” and actor David Harbour’s attachment to Marxist beliefs. Does socialism just make sense? Should a Starbucks barista own the coffee that they brew? Is communism just like sharing things in Kindergarten?
No, no, and no.
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Written by Jen Maffessanti & Sean W. Malone
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Edited by Michael Ozias
Asst. Edited by Jason Reinhardt
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[@flameguy3416]

When a person says they want a "kindergarten type society", disregard their ideological beliefs.

[@Semino1eC4]

I was about to point this out myself, it inherently implies that there should be an adult figure that runs your life for you.

[@Noperare]

Imagine thinking all adults are overgrown children that needs daddy state. Not only he is looking down on 99% of population, he assumes there is a group of "superior" adults that should rule us all.

[@jacobhargiss3839]

@@Semino1eC4 well, when your so stupid that you actually do need adult supervision, you probably would think everyone else does too. Its the same reason people want to ban guns, they cant trust themselves with them so they assume everyone else is the same.

[@LordZandersSoapbox4811]

Of course a person who is in the elite class is always morally and ethically superior to us lowly plebs, Not!! Forgot this guy

[@flagflow1232]

True. A society in which a small group of people orders a larger group of people when to eat, when to sleep and when to play is not an ideal society by any means.

[@kurtwagner350]

Funny that he stars in “Stranger Things” a show which celebrates the 80’s which exemplifies the best aspects of capitalism and was really a time everyone looks back on fondly because of that

[@iudexvoluntas3529]

Its where we went from a working productive society. To a vapid failing mindless consumer based system of nihilism.

[@RoverIAC]

someone should tell him to share his wage with the people at the boarder.

[@everywherecat9824]

The 80s were the beginning of our gigantic debt based economy, and those economic ideas are why our countries economy crashed hard.

[@kurtwagner350]

@@everywherecat9824 no it definitely isn’t responsible for the current economic crisis, economy’s always crash every 10-15 years its not some thing that has only happened once and can be traced back decades, in fact the 80’s came directly after one of the worst economic decades in America’s history so I have no clue how you’re drawing these conclusions, and the us was hardly in debt then anyways

[@everywherecat9824]

@@kurtwagner350 The economy went close to 70 years without a crash before Ronald Reagan deregulated and we immediately hit the S&L crises. These recent crashes are absolutely due to deregulation. I would give anything for an economy as robust as the 70s. I'd have much cheaper housing, cost of living, higher wages more purchasing power. We didn't have super wealthy elites in the abundance we do now. So is that what you are talking about?

[@jaroslavb.korinek7285]

Lately I often remind myself a line I've heard about actors: "Actors aren't very smart. If they were, they wouldn't have to pretend they are someone else."

[@NYG5]

LMFAO this guy thinks the barista should get all the starbucks profits yet doesn't bat an eye when he gets a $20mil paycheck for one movie while the gaffer gets $12/hr

[@hrdley911]

BINGO!

[@npcimknot958]

I bet you the person that collected the material and made that suit, didnt even get close to what he made.. the makeup artist that are some of the FIRST to arrive on set and last to leave.. didn't get paid near him.. the personal driver and person fetching him his Starbucks.. didn't get paid 💩.. nor have any say in the movie.. but ya.. he's the hero in this story LOL.. he is so delusional.. i hate people like that.. and working on sets when i was struggling to make my hours to apply for actra, i couldn't even continue because i couldn't continue paying for expensive makeup while being only paid 25$ for my kit.. mind you .. i was being paid with " experience".. well that experience doesn't pay for transportation , nor food.. and it got too expensive.. felt so exploited i couldn't continue.. The world isn't fair.. the movie industry is the LAST to sjw preach... when opportunity isn't not equal.. you need money.. and connections.. to even stay in the game to even get an opportunity. But ya.. he's so stunning and brave lol * rolls eyes. I'm glad stranger things and stuff isn't really that popular anymore.

[@DontEvenLiftBro]

He doesn’t get paid close to that much but I see what you’re saying.

[@VoiceofNH]

When AOC said "Tax the rich" (or her dress did) does a $20 million paycheck make him one of "them" too?

[@hrs29]

@@npcimknot958 But that will be the first, because their propaganda is important. Thus when everyone is equal they will be MORE equal.

[@logicmeister1821]

You should do a video about how alot of newer Comicbook characters have been insisting that Superheroes should "do more", which has become increasingly prominent in recent years, ​with even a recent DC comic having Jon Kent telling his dad, Superman, that he should be "doing more". ​Even though for a lot of heroes "doing more" would mean stepping on individual liberties, and forcing others to do whatever the "Hero" thinks is right

[@FEEonline]

I'm pretty sad about the state of the industry.

[@BigJoker]

I think in many ways he touches on that in the Jupiter's Legacy review.

[@Jar0fMay0]

I've been seeing that a lot lately. It came out in The Falcon & The Winter Soldier. What does that even mean. It's such a vague comment.

[@ChillstoneBlakeBlast]

Reminds me of Animal Farm and how the horse was the only one that was doing significant work to the mill, only for the communist pigs to ask more from him even though he did the best job. Communist want to suck up the good people and Ideas dry for their own gain and not for the people.

[@heavyhittersirl]

How bout we ask Marvel to give an account as to why none of their characters seem to wear masks for the COVID. Covid was avoided completely.

[@anondabomb]

For the Starbucks thing, who bought the coffee? Who got you the machines? Who payed for the water to be pumped into the building so you have water? For them to own the coffee they make they need to supply all of those things and own the building, then we can talk.

[@elenabob4953]

Who will pay the debts if that business goes bankrupt? They will get the severance pay and their only responsibility will be to look for another job.

[@theaccordian9377]

Don't worry, that's too complex for left wingers.

[@Tyjohnable]

Also the taxes on the property and the electricity.

[@MarioFanaticXV]

I'd like to point out that Starbucks is a publicly traded company; if a barista WANTS to own part of the company, there's nothing stopping them from buying some shares.

[@steviegilliam5685]

The thing that always annoys me greatly is when celebrities who support communism/socialism also benefit from capitalism, a system they claim they hate

[@tbc1880]

Everyone who supports it thinks they will be the ones on top instead of the first to go.

[@steviegilliam5685]

@@tbc1880 exactly

[@szeltovivarsydroxan9944]

But that's the thing. They don't hate capitalism. They claim they do, because they don't want YOU to acquire wealth, but keep their own.

[@AndrooUK]

These celebrities are required to condone these ridiculous ideals, like they are with 'equity' and 'racial justice', because it pays the bills. I'm sure they all have financial advisors that tell them socialism and communism would destroy their portfolios, except where they can cosy up to the leaders and/or buy their way to profitability.

[@astarteswillum5259]

@@szeltovivarsydroxan9944 Unfortunately for them, that's not how Socialism works out. These idiots might as well say bye bye to their money if socialism is allowed to take over.

[@BigJoker]

The coffee analogy is a great example of a terrible analogy. It reminds me of a woman who defended the "vaccines" getting approved quickly by saying when she orders a dress online, the quality is no different if she picks next day shipping or two week shipping, just the process to get it to her is streamlined. Failing to understand (perhaps intentionally) that the dress is not made the moment you click the button. Harbour makes a similar fallacy in assuming the barista or any worker is wholly responsible for the product being created.

[@DanteTheSimpSlayer]

If they want worker run businesses... they can have it under capitalism. why is it so hard for them to get this?

[@alej15pr]

@@DanteTheSimpSlayer because we have capitalism now and yet worker owned businesses and unions are constantly being fought against and oppressed by big business owners and the politicians they own. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@DanteTheSimpSlayer]

@@alej15pr capitalism literally means free trade, so its not stopping you. literally nobody is stopping you from forming a company that is owned by workers. get a bunch of your retarded idiots and make a company that is owned by all of you. if it's so great, you will out-compete everyone and then you can lead by example

[@elenabob4953]

They don't even think because this scenario is circulated as a fact and used so many times as a justification without really thinking about the implications.

[@elenabob4953]

@@alej15pr In my ex communist countries the Unions are ruled by pro communists people.tget don't care about the people they represent but about power and how much wealth can gain fir their own use therefore when they call for a strike, it is for a stupid reason who doesn't help the workers much but who puts pressure on the pro EU gouvernement. When their pockets are full, you see them being "elected" as a Senator in the pro Russian party. Even in France where the syndicates are strong they don't do very much for the workers.

[@bcmelendrez100]

guy with opposing views: "what happens communism is complete and the world is a utopia?" twitter communist: "well plant trees, share food and water, maybe ill start my own farm..." guy with opposing views: "YOUR FARM?"

[@Kriegter]

jreg comes to mind

[@anothertarnishedone5960]

You don't know what communism is, right?

[@paranoidpanzerpenguin5262]

@@anothertarnishedone5960 Peasants who owned farms were literally rounded up and executed in the USSR, so their land could be redistributed under the management of communist party bureaucrats whose terrible guidance resulted in the Soviet Famines of the 1930s. It's literally what communists did, several times across several nations at that. Spare us your stupid rhetorical questions when you don't even know the first thing about communism.

[@snakedogman]

They always think they'll be doing some cushy, vaguely creative job that's not too hard. Grow their own veggies, have a lot of free time for self developments etc. Yeah ok, so who's doing all the hard labour in this utopia exactly? Who builds your house and makes sure clean water comes out of the tap? Who manages your waste and sewage? They tend to conveniently forget about all the people (almost exclusively men) doing all the hard and dirty jobs that keep modern society functioning.

[@Nikita-ze8ii]

@@snakedogman even Marx already said that full communism like you describe it would be a matter of automation. It's nice to fantasize but it's important for socialists to recognize that they likely won't see the day any of this happens, whether it be because greed for profit destroys us or because the day is too far in the future.

[@Anderson-tg1sc]

It's too bad, because I love David Harbor as an actor but I completely believe he is an absolute buffoon when it comes to economics.

[@MrInternetHermit]

Economics is so complex, it's hard for anyone who doesn't have a master degree in it to not be a buffoon, and sometimes even then .....

[@elenabob4953]

@@MrInternetHermit But still, I think you know better than to make huge statements based on silly arguments, right?

[@MrInternetHermit]

@@elenabob4953 Of course, where most people fail is to think things through/critically to realize what's a good argument & what's a silly one.

[@astarteswillum5259]

Most actors are.

[@Tyjohnable]

Not just economics. Remember when he called for punching people in the face?

[@TheTofucheese]

The coffee that you make is not yours. How about the person who grew the coffee beans? How about the person who imported the beans and roasted them? How about the person who trained you to make the coffee? How about the person who bought the coffee machine with which you made the coffee with? With David Harbour's intensely flawed logic, you own maybe at most 10-15% of the coffee you made.

[@Povole]

The coffee is owned by the customer... who just bought it. Make the coffee.

[@I.____.....__...__]

Where'd you get 10-15%? Is it based on actual data or just a random guess? Regardless,10-15% is still better than what Starbucks lets you keep. At _best,_ Starbucks lets you keep maybe 13% which is actually based on _best-case_ scenario figures as reported by franchisees of $3,800 per day profit paid to 5 employees at (over minimum-wage) $12.5/hour over a 8hr/day. The numbers are pretty conservative, but hey, I'm not trying to destroy capitalism here, only the OP's comment. 😛

[@Snakedude4life]

People can get yeeted off of movie sets for having the wrong opinion 12 years ago on Twitter. YET, This smooth brain is allowed to operate and in fact, promoted. How. Odd.☕️ 🎩 🐍 no step on snek! 🇺🇸🇭🇰

[@hhgff778]

What are you talking about Twitter still does that.

[@Snakedude4life]

@@hhgff778 Not for socialists, commies or MAPS.

[@Juanguar]

@@hhgff778 he means if you said something 12 years ago twitter will yeet you

[@hhgff778]

@@Snakedude4life true

[@hhgff778]

@@Juanguar oh, ok

[@brianschwatka3655]

The thing is they do think experts can plan the economy cause they also feel consumer demands should be ignored and you should have what the elites want you to have.

[@michaelmurphy2112]

Well, if only certain things are available, then that's all you can have. Economy planned!

[@brianschwatka3655]

@@michaelmurphy2112 sadly for many that isn't sarcasm that is their honest to god belief system

[@marcaldovino264]

don"t like ur own comments, it makes you look like a narcissist

[@Boris_Belomor]

@@michaelmurphy2112 That's literally what was life under Soviet Union.

[@THATMOFODIRT]

We should socialize David Harbour's wealth to all the comrades. Let's see how he likes living by his own bs.

[@UnbeltedSundew]

He's like that guy from Rage Against the Machine. Socialism for thee, not for mee.

[@jacobhargiss3839]

Ever notice how its almost always the incredibly wealthy that say they want socialism but still keep their wealth? Its like they know they're too irresponsible to have it and just want it confiscated. In contrast, the poor usually just want to keep what they earn.

[@BenWard29]

Most of us are hypocrites in some way. Also- if you think that the systems in the U.S. can't get better, you must live in quite the wonderful bubble. But it's definitely more fun to tear some actor down than actually suggest real and substantive change and try to make things better, am I right?

[@UnbeltedSundew]

@@BenWard29 Better? In what sense? Why shouldn't we tear down people who propose things that will make things demonstrably worse, for everyone, when they make such stupid statements.

[@jacobhargiss3839]

@@BenWard29 you dont need to suggest change to be able to say what changes we shouldnt make. No one thinks that the US cant get better, but its not going to via socialism.

[@mixedbagclips2511]

“You will own nothing and be happy…”

[@TheBelrick]

This; also ; good people dont progress in hollywood, one of the cancers that gave birth to communism in the usa

[@anothertarnishedone5960]

Well, we have everything and obviously we are not happy. So maybe is time to try a different approach.

[@TH3F4LC0Nx]

Makes it all the more satisfying to watch Denzel asphyxiate this dude in The Equalizer.

[@Noperare]

Considering that Denzel supports Sowell economical theory, that is pretty much "a chad capitalist vs a virgin socialist" meme.

[@Ellebeeby]

@@Noperare shit, Denzel’s onto Thomas Sowell’s stuff? Awesome.

[@szeltovivarsydroxan9944]

Was that in the first one or the second Equalizer?

[@songbird7450]

@@Noperare It says quite something about the horrible ideas going around in those social circles that simply finding out about Denzel's appreciation for Sowell made me smile.

[@007kingifrit]

makes it all the more satisfying to not buy the equalizer in the first place....i don't give money to socialists

[@shanerooney7288]

*TWO counter-arguments against "workers owning the factory"* 1) The workers get a share of the profit. Do they also get a share of the debt? If the company goes bankrupt, do the workers need to pay out of their bank account? A specific example: Actors in a movie. If the movie is a success they get more, but if it is a flop? 2) The stock market. If a worker wants to tie their wealth to that of the company they work for, they can buy shares of that company at the stock market.

[@FEEonline]

That's kinda the thing... If you are an actual owner, you get profits *and* losses, depending on how the company does, but nobody seems to want that part. It's also perfectly possible to buy stocks, as you said, or set up your own company that gives equal ownership to all workers... All of that was always allowed under a private, free market economy.

[@moestietabarnak]

@@FEEonline the owner doesn't pay from their bank account, they lost ONLY what invested in the company, that what INCORPORATION is for.

[@FEEonline]

@@moestietabarnak not sure how that's a response.

[@moestietabarnak]

@@FEEonline it say what it said ! The worker tend to risk MORE then the owner without any say in the decision. MORE meaning standard of living, PERSONAL risk , not more money. We're not talking mom&pop''s owner we're talking BILLIONS dollars company, at this stage, the owner(s) has limited liability.

[@drakejoy2902]

@@moestietabarnak how does the worker tend to risk more? I mean you can just change jobs. Since you know you're not in a contract you're probably a blue collar worker. Which means you can find another blue collar job.

[@will2777]

Ah, so when will David harbor share his wealth to us workers then? Oh wait, he's a wealthy celebrity, so probably never

[@sebastianrobbins9601]

You can remove the word probably

[@redspear6692]

It makes me wonder? If they love socialism so much, why don't they go and live in a country that does socialism. I prefer to buy products that I want and vote with my wallet.

[@jobsmine]

Man, this video breaks my heart but is also so relatable to me. I myself am an immigrant who has suffered at the hands of a socialist country in Africa. Worse, I lived there for 27 years and moved to the US three years ago. I was very lucky to be educated and get a degree in engineering because of my parents. But, as time goes by my country only became worse with nearly 76% of the population fleeing out the country. All this was because of the collective ideas that the government wanted to enforce the laws and regulations of USSR/China based policies. It has been in power for 32 years now. Suddenly we can't own simple things like cars, opening a business, and even the internet. Worse, you had to have a government clearance to buy water because there isn't a water system in the country at all. Any post secondarily education is seeing with suspicion by the government. Media is also completely controlled and only shows socialist ideas that favor it. That said I am extremely sad to see people rooting for socialism with the intention to destroy a far better state thinking they’re not free. Yes, America is not perfect, but running around and destroying and burning for the sake of socialist ideas is truly disappointing. Please I beg you to recognize the good, and not be fooled by mainstream media or even Twitter. The media will have you believing Iran and China are great countries indeed but know better don't be naive. I am really grateful to live in the U.S. because there are many who beg to have the same opportunity. You've seen Afghanis, Venezuelans, Libyans trying to escape desperately out their countries. I only wish to see this nation prosper by overcoming the difficulties we face collectively and by our righteous individual actions. I pray that people wake up with the greater good.

[@randomcenturion7264]

Given how bad Black Widow flopped, I'd say it's message didn't really resonate with a lot of people.

[@AkshayKumar-vd5wn]

May I ask which country in Africa? I heard Rawanda is doing better.

[@loralubimaia2783]

I owned a coffee shop before covid ran it to the ground... When harbour said that I immediately became enraged. An employees work is nowhere near the dedication and work an owner puts in. It's a slap to my face and every owners face .

[@supergobgoblin424]

Leftists are not human

[@supergobgoblin424]

They are cockroaches waiting to be stomp

[@AllegroRubato]

People like Harbour are why people like me end up needing to leave their countries of origin and homes to protect themselves from the abuse of petty tyrants and bureaucrats. Ignorant populists can ruin any nation on earth, and deserve all the spite they have coming to them.

[@damiantirado9616]

I live in a socialist country and it’s perfect even better than America. Homelessness has almost completely gone away and being poor in my country is like being middle class in America.

[@sergiomypool]

@@damiantirado9616 what's your country?

[@MrRogerogerio]

​@@sergiomypoolAny surprise they didn't answer your question to this day?

[@sergiomypool]

@@MrRogerogerio lmao

[@thailehuy]

Being born and raised in a socialist country, you don't know how much I roll my eyes when hearing those bourgeoise hollywood actors praising socialism.

[@johnpatz8395]

A basic point you overlooked in the Starbucks example, is the person combining the ingredients also didn’t pay for the building, the equipment, the tables, chairs, coffee cups, coffee beans, milk, water or anything else that is needed for that business to actually operate, not to mention, the employee not only gets paid to make coffee, but even gets paid if not a single person comes in and buys coffee that day, nor are they on the hook for any other business costs.

[@nm-cp4ck]

not to mention the brand awareness, paperwork, accounting, negotiations with other companies, public relations, and a billion other things needed for a successful business that socialists completely neglect

[@Chipwhitley274]

Uh... he made that exact point... apparently you overlooked it...

[@mattr9852]

I think it is suitably ironic that the theoretical AI Overlord needed to actually run a socialist economy could only exsist and be created via Capitalism.

[@caralho5237]

Socialism could only work if we were wired like ants There are always emergent and unpredictable demands in capitalism that can only be satisfied by a free, flexible market Only way for a government to efficiently run a economy would be by lobotomizing every citizen so that they wouldn't think for themselves and question their bad decisions

[@averageleson]

It could theoretically be created under socialism as well, it just depends on the mode of distribution of resources

[@KnuckleHunkybuck]

12:14 "I struggle to imagine why anyone does [support socialism]." Dude, the answer is right there in the title of your video: "Childish"

[@robbiemcneish4459]

Babe wake up, new Foundation for Economic Education video

[@NessaEllenesse]

While I agree with almost everything in the video. There is one thing I would like to dispute. Starbucks is over priced. Everything on their menu can be obtained at places like Perera Bread Company at a lower price.

[@FEEonline]

Ready for a mind-blowing fact? I don't drink coffee. I couldn't care less about Starbucks personally. But... It was the example Harbour chose, so here we are.

[@NYG5]

That's why we have a choice between SB, Panera, Dunkin Donuts, the gas station coffee, etc

[@BigJoker]

Lol at mentioning Panera when attempting to bring up cheaper options

[@jeanniemaycrawford4466]

@@NYG5 I love Dunkin donuts, a real shame what they did with their new logo

[@NYG5]

@@jeanniemaycrawford4466 what, did they turn it into a rainbiw flag now?

[@VeryPeeved]

"now let's be honest, most people aren't smart enough to rule themselves, frankly. but nobody is smart enough to rule other people." -Technoblade, 2021

[@NoName-ym5zj]

Actual people who used to live under socialism: "It sucked ass, then we got genocided, starved and then it sucked ass some more" 1st world rich people: "OMG SOCIALISM SO GOOD!!! YUMMY!!!"

[@St33lStrife]

I'm a manager at Pizza hut. I have seen the kind of crap that goes into just a single day's work. Between the suppliers and the product manufacturers, it's not as easy as all that

[@deekay9441]

Honestly love the work of this channel and I would say that I'm personally more aligned with this channels thinking than a lot of the other KZbinrs I've seen online. I do keep tabs on content creators on the other side of the spectrum, with the most recent one being "second thought" who I view as a more radical socialist. Would love to maybe see in the future FEE making somewhat of a response video or an exploration for one of their videos.

[@FEEonline]

We're working on a response video to Second Thought, but not for this series. I think that would be a little weird to do on Out of Frame.

[@deekay9441]

@@FEEonline That makes sense, I was just hoping that there would be an response video done by the FEE team in another series since you guys do such great work with the Out of Frame series. Looking forward to seeing it!

[@sonofsueraf]

Good lord, that channel's disgusting.

[@steelxspider5274]

@@FEEonline which series will it be posted tho?

[@FEEonline]

@@steelxspider5274 it's slow going, but something totally new, probably. I may end up doing a different reaction though, not sure.

[@Sousabird]

I mean, this movie had Black Widow sever her olfactory nerve by smashing her head on a desk as a key plot point. I didn't expect the crew to be Mensa tier.

[@Noperare]

That was so dumb. What if she had a gun and shot him from range? Heck, it is not like he is a super skilled fighter, she could just hold her breath and attack him.

[@elenabob4953]

What do you want? Do you think it is Mensa level when in the previously movie she died falling from a cliff while in this one she falls from every building in existence but she survives without major injuries every single time?

[@SamaritanPrime]

See, here's the thing: Melina told Natasha pretty much everything she needed to know, so Nat should have known about the pheromone Dreykov was using and wore a gas mask. It should be able to filter out said pheromone, and Nat could just shoot Dreykov on sight.

[@LucasMBoysOurRoy]

I always find it rich when a Hollywood celebrity preaches about socialism and/or identity politics. He’s probably only saying this because Disney Plus took most of his revenue lmao

[@charlenebaganzmoore]

I have a two year old so let me level. My son at two has learnt the word "mine" and while he will share, he also wants it for himself at other times. There is no equality in a 'kindergarden' type system. As a single mother, so I will work harder to put my son through activities and pay for education. I am grown up enough not to blame society. The choice to have my son was mine and I am happy to pay the price, which means working a dead end job to improve my son's lot.

[@quantumaxe6468]

I commend you for sense of accountability. Not many will accept responsibility for their choices, especially single mothers.

[@Andrea-fd2bw]

The choices are Only partly yours,you live in a society who allows your son to have an education and you to be protected by the law and by other citizens

[@TheViolenceConductor]

I don't know how you can thumbs down this video. Unless you are a new hire at Starbucks....

[@snakedogman]

The amount of people who actually think that socialism is just "sharing stuff" and have zero interest in knowing anything else about it is pretty shocking. This is truly kindergarten level knowledge and reasoning, and yet we see it time and time again in mainstream discourse and taken seriously too.

[@jerstriker]

Great video! I appreciate all of the ones that you make. They help me articulate arguments and create my own world views!

[@TheBelrick]

In answer to his question, why does anyone support socialism? Because it grants enormous power to the hands of ruling elites who therefor motivated to indoctrinate humanity through propaganda selling socialism as an utopian ideology.

[@AustinMCraigDoesNeatStuff]

[slow clap] I love Harbour as an actor. But man oh man, we do NOT need to endorse the ideas of actors who are WAY WAY outside their area of expertise. Harbour is just flat wrong here.

[@elenabob4953]

I don't know what age you are but I still remember the period where the actors have been considered an ideal, you don't know very much about them and their beliefs so they could be a blank slate ready to take on every role possible. I really miss those times. I don't say that they must be like robots but more to realize that it is a think called over sharing and they should be sensitive enough not to cross that line.

[@occam7382]

11:11 this is actually something that I once heard while watching a video discussing the conflicts of the Middle East and the economics that led to them. To anyone reading this, I highly recommend checking out the series on it, titled "What the Gulf?" by a guy called brain4breakfast, the videos are wonderfully drawn, edited, and narrated, and his content is very educational for anyone wanting to watch it. But basically, when discussing the economics that helped lead to the confusing mess which is the Middle East right now, notably trade of valuable goods, he says this: "No one knows how to make a cup of coffee. The inputs seem simple. But each input needs its own inputs, and each iteration of that process gets deeper and more ludicrous, until eventually the web you've weaved looks like an entire civilization. Planning this is a monstrous task." Just thought I'd bring that up, because it seems interesting compared to your statement on this same thing. So, yeah. Hope you have a great day, and I can't wait to see your next video.

[@KerbalFacile]

The lovelies at HowToMakeEverything probably can brew coffee from scratch - like how they made cola soda entirely from hand-foraged resources - but they also would make a point of how ludicrously expensive it would be on one's own, how long and painstaking a process, and how vast a training you'd need to even get started.

[@nickhollerauer4295]

@@KerbalFacile Yeah, wasn't there a guy who tried to make a chicken sandwich literally from scratch, i.e. growing the wheat for the bread, making the tools for growing the wheat by hand, sourcing a chicken from somewhere, slaughtering it with hand made tools, finding a cow to get the milk to produce the cheese, etc., and it ended up costing like $10,000 before he gave up altogether?

[@straits9260]

Yea, its very sad brain4breakfast passed away

[@feartheghus]

The simplest and most effective answer to “the people who make the coffee at Starbucks should own it” is: ok, go make some coffee then. He’d have to admit he can’t make it, and while he’d like to blame the world and capitalism, the truth of it is that he doesn’t have any coffee beans, doesn’t know how to grow them, doesn’t have milk or raise cattle, he knows nothing, has nothing of productive value. He is forced to recognize that he didn’t make the coffee on his own, and that pouring the coffee into a cup wasn’t the most important step, and certainly not the only one. That the evil corporation actually did serve a role.

[@seantaylor6691]

Another excellent entry into this series. We'll done .

[@kayakMike1000]

Children are usually very selfish untill they have a sense of ownership. Once they feel that they own something, they will voluntarily share. Forcing them to share will make them very selfish...

[@CowCommando]

Gotta say, the younger sister was actually a fun character for the most part. They gave her some funny lines and moments I really liked. I wouldn't mind seeing her take Black Widow's place in later Marvel films if they keep giving her good (or better) writing and character development. That is, if I even bother to watch any more Marvel films. I started losing interest after Age of Ultron. Everyone one else was forgettable for me though, including Black Widow. I laughed at her solution to defeating the villain. There were several easier solutions to her problem that didn't require her to do anything as dramatic as what she did.

[@jarjarbinks6018]

Ugh as someone who throughout high school fell victim to the tankie narrative this stuff makes me cringe. Every time I see people like David Harbour make these fallacious short sighted arguments it truly makes me feel uncomfortable. I hope he learns more about the inner workings of such systems he seems to idolize so he can understand why people become disenchanted by such false “utopias”, I’m sure glad I did.

[@residentcarolean3750]

It reminds me of this stupid internet meme about how Superman *really* should’ve been helping people, which is to say that instead of stopping crime and being a model citizen, he should hook himself to a treadmill and reduce his power to generating enough energy to power the populace.

[@matityaloran9157]

So whatever happened to Arash? I remember him from the video on The Joker.

[@pdub87]

Out of Frame is the best video series on youtube, fantastic job as always!

[@michaelchen183]

Great way to start the day!!

[@nunya1120]

I had no idea that the staff at the FEE was so diverse! That's pretty cool! I also want to add that I really appreciate the subtitles in your videos. I really wish more creators would follow your lead with that. Keep up the excellent work you guys!

[@alaska4939]

My parent never forced us to share toys with other kids. They said that we shouldn’t expect other children to share with us. It was good to be generous and let kids play with our toys, but if they are breaking them, then we have a right to put them away or go get mom and dad if we’re having trouble. We played outside with most kids that came to visit to solve most of the issues.

[@AnaFolkenstal]

Just look at what his early life was: - Harbour was born in White Plains, New York - Both of his parents work in real estate, his mother in residential and his father in commercial. - Graduated from Dartmouth College in Hanover, New Hampshire, in 1997. - 1999, professional acting career started I bet that boy didn't work ONE single day in his life with the parent's money.

[@davidkonevky7372]

The starbucks analogy falls quickly when you realize who bought the coffee beans, who bought the machines to make the coffee, who bought the cups where the coffee is poured, etc.

[@thomasd1544]

Puzzling why Hollywood haven't donated their salaries to "the people."

[@Cwighty13]

The disconnect of David Harbor embracing the ideology of his character while the entire story is about the complete violation of human (particularly woman and children) rights, down to an individuals free will, by that same ideology... There just aren't words to describe the stupidity.

[@lifeandtheuniverse42]

This is what I was thinking!! Like- did you watch the movie, dude?!?

[@Skyfoogle]

i'm not into the whole "workers should own everything" brand of socialism but the current deterioration of capitalism proves socialism an inevitability. capitalism cannibalizes its own founding principles by design. finding employment is becoming exponentially more difficult. cost of housing is at an all time high and continues to climb as corporations mass purchase empty homes and resell them for profit. cost of health care, cost of education, cost of living is as a whole is rising dramatically as demand increases and corporations further monopolize and gain a chokehold on markets and competition. there's little we can do to even crack down on these practices because the more money corporations have, the more power they have over politicians. this already happens today. global supermonopolies are the end goal of capitalism, there is no other way it can play out. either socialist reform starts soon or there will be violent revolution from an impoverished and exploited population. the profit incentive behind everything humanity does will not work going into the future, and more americans are starting to realize that. as a footnote I don't think planned economies will ever be viable. markets will exist no matter what, everyone wants to get ahead of eachother and be entitled to the sweat of their brow. you'll seldom find socialists who oppose that.

[@qaplapro]

Goverment involvement has caused most of the mentioned price increases. Why do big corporations like government regulation? It kills the competition.

[@kazuhirala]

HA! I knew you couldn’t help yourself with inserting “The Greater Good”. Nice

[@11jerans]

Damn Tau

[@SgtJoeSmith]

his check should be split with all the names in the credits that made the movie

[@SamaritanPrime]

Alexei and Melina were probably the worst parts of the movie for me. They were both agents of an ideology that collapsed with the Soviet Union into the dustbin of history, and yet they still work towards that goal. Both of them knew the Red Room, knew what it was about, and willingly turned over two innocent little girls to the Red Room and subjected to untold horrors. Look at what the Red Room does to its agents: - forced hysterectomies - removal of bodily autonomy through psychological conditioning (later chemical control) - Taskmaster straight-up got the Darth Vader treatment Alexei and Melina eventually come to see that they made a huge mistake to turn over Natasha and Yelena, but I'm not so sure they both understood just how and why it was a mistake. Alexei specifically does not quite seem to get it, though we do see him start to see that he did... something wrong. Melina, though, is pretty much a mad scientist in a catsuit. She developed the chemical programming the current generation of Black Widows are subjected to, and she just seems along for the ride to go take down the Red Room because her not-daughters are the ones leading the charge. Natasha and Yelena at least have a reason to burn it to the ground, being just two of its victims. There are a couple ways for Alexei and Melina to have been more sympathetic, though: 1. The not-family was running from the Red Room itself in the opening prologue, not SHIELD. Alexei and Melina could split up with Alexei taking the girls, only to fail. Alexei is then thrown in the gulag for his treason. Melina gets away and stays away, fearing what would happen to her if the Red Room caught up to her. She then joins the mission because her "daughters" aren't scared, so why should she be? 2. Alexei and Melina sacrifice themselves to destroy the Red Room. Yes, typical "bad parent sacrifices themselves for their kid" trope, but it works for a reason. This would require both Alexei and Melina to understand how they failed their pseudo-daughters and seek to atone for their mistake.

[@mustang607]

Maybe there are those out there that believe there are these magic seeds that make factories where workers "make" coffee.

[@chuy3162]

The beauty of America is that you can open up a coffee shop and then give it to your workers if you want. It's stupid but very possible.

[@OntheOtherHandVideos]

This series always does an amazing job taking a big concept and distilling it down to it's core premises. Thanks for all the work you all do!

[@tenhirankei]

I can explain the problem with why socialism/communism doesn't work simply by the word "ego". As long as every single human being has their own ego there will never be any truly successful collectivist economy working for the benefit of others. Once we can ALL set that aside, it will be possible. But we can't do that which lead to incarceration in gulags or reeducation camps of dissidents.

[@StoicFinance]

Thanks for this video! You guys have a way of explaining everything in incredibly easy to understand terms. Also great to get some background about who those at FEE are! Keep it up!

[@jacobnugent8159]

Wow I didn’t realize how many of the people at FEE have experienced socialism

[@heavyhittersirl]

Excellent vid. This may catch quite a bit of heat.

[@FEEonline]

Bring it.

[@gimballock2084]

You guys keep knocking it out of the park. Probably my favorite channel on all of KZbin. And I watch a lot of KZbin.

[@okyx3985]

why everything must be polytized? when entertainment stopped being for entertain and become politic? sorry for my english

[@elenabob4953]

No problem regarding your English, I have understood what you've meant. It started at least 20 years ago when I have started replacing the music and Hollywood movies with the Asian ones.

[@northnova1358]

This is a great thing your doing here, using pop culture as a jumping of point to talk about stuff that is generally hard to talk about! Using movies also adds entertainment for keep attention!! 🇨🇦

[@gusmc2220]

I always love when the cry 'but what about workers cooperatives!' yeah, what about them? nothing and no on is saying you can't create a workers cooperative right now and compete against traditional business models you know? 'but, but, that wouldn't be fair!' even THEY know 'workers cooperatives,' (or any other socialistic type system) aren't efficient enough to stand on their own without requiring government to intervene on their behalf.

[@gusmc2220]

@Zain Eleissa lol ok, here we go, HOW would they be "completely busted" in a capitalist system exactly? And what are you trying to say "it's not about quality in a capitalist system, it's about brand i..." are you trying to say brand image? How does it help brand image to make an inferior product? You understand if a company regularly produces an inferior product at a higher price then they will garner the reputation for being overpriced junk and their competition who can provide a quality product for a comparable price will end up getting more business. It's as simple as that. So obviously there must be a balance between quality, price and demand. That is pretty basic knowledge. And something planned economies fail miserably at Did you just give up on your own argument half way through? P.S. be precise with how worker's cooperatives "would be completely busted" in a capitalist system, I don't want you to just move the goalposts when you end up proving my original point.

[@gusmc2220]

@Zain Eleissa "Sorry busted I mean go bankrupt and probably sell all their property to a bigger company" LMAO you're making my point for me, if 'workers co-op's' are actually competitive then why would they be going bankrupt in the first place? see you're dodging the issue which is proving my point for me. "about the quality thing if a big company's product sucks and is at a high price they can just buy the competition just like the above" and what, create a monopoly? you do realize there are anti trust laws already in place correct? better yet show me an example of a monopoly in manufacturing currently. give me one example of there being a produce where only one company produces that type of product and I will concede the point, barring a real example I have to say you are full of it and pushing a false narrative as if it were fact but you want to know where there basically IS a monopoly now? big tech and social media. now THERE is where we need some more regulation if we need it anywhere. please get serious and be precise, like I asked you already, because I grow tired of your vague, unsubstantiated statements: _"Hitchens's razor is an epistemological razor expressed by and named after journalist, author, and public speaker Christopher Hitchens. Hitchens has phrased the razor in writing as "What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence"_ you've been warned, I will give you one more chance to be exact and precise in your argument and to give actual real world examples or I will dismiss you as wrong out of hand. because the narrative in your mind is not proof of how things are in reality, and in my opinion if your narrative does not match reality it is YOU and YOUR narrative that must change not reality to match what you WANT it to be.

[@gusmc2220]

@Zain Eleissa ok. g'night

[@gusmc2220]

@Zain Eleissa I don't think you understand what a monopoly is if you believe McDonald's is one. There is Burger King, Carl's Jr., Jack in the Box, Friday's, Whata Burger, Lotta Burger, and many many more alternatives to McDonald's. Just because a company is large does not make it a monopoly, and in fact McDonald's is a perfect example that refutes your argument about a company making an overpriced inferior product, the 'food' McDonald's makes is definitely inferior, but it is not overpriced. And I personally refuse to eat there, spending significantly more at the local mom and pop dinner instead because the Burger they make is larger, better tasting and healthier. Hence why I am willing to pay more for it. So no, no one has gathered all the world's food and forced you to 'stuck his dick' for a hamburger. That is exactly the situation I am asking you to find me in reality though. The good ol 'island' thought experiment that socialist love to banter around even though it is completely impractical and nonsensical. Want to know whats a more apt comparison? You find yourself alone on a desert island paradise, food in the trees, clean water flowing from a spring from atop a hill, heck even a cave for shelter in the mountain side. But you're on the beach, in the blazing sun, you'll die if you don't move. How do you survive in this literal paradise without doing any work? Its going to take effort just to get off the beach, you're thirsty? You have to climb the hill, you're hungry? How are you going to get food out of the tree with zero effort? It's getting dark and cold? Better gather wood for a fire and climb to that cave before you die! But make sure not to put forward any effort!... The natural order of things is you work or you die, even in a paradise with no one around to "oppress" you I believe you are at least arguing in good faith. And I appreciate that. I don't plan on ignoring you for now

[@nicholasbeach4909]

“I really wish that didn’t have to be said” Me too kid.

[@billyvalentine4466]

Love how in the second half of this video where this guy starts "demolishing" communism, claims with references completely dissappear and are instead replaced with appeals to ignorance. "People just couldn't possibly know all this" "nobody has a solution for this." Conservative intellectualism is so insulting to its audience.

[@0nlyThis]

In the original Cosmos, hosted by Carl Sagan, a scene begins with a waiter walking through an empty restaurant with an apple pie, placing it in front of Mr. Sagan who, in his usual calm, paced tone sets the scene. "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe." N H Kendall 2 September, 2018

[@chrisburch1406]

Based as always. Cheers mate!

[@antonkovalenko364]

I was born in Ukraine SSR. Trust me - even we didn't want to be communists. Communism only works with the cooperation of everyone involved. In my experience some of us will always be more equal than the rest of us. Народжений бути вільним.

[@victorcippitelli2242]

The same guy who cash in for autographs from people loves that idelology? Illarious xD !

[@MrNickPresley]

If socialism requires capitalism to collapse, then would it not be fair to consider socialism a fail state? And if it is a fail state, is it not then a bad thing that should be avoided?

[@rakesrunner]

As always, your video is fascinating and informative, and I do understand how you see the problem with communism (I myself are from CIS country), but can you someday make a video about what sides of socialism are actually good and would be nice to have integrated into current most successful economies? It would be so great to actually understand what is so appealing for all of these people who promote communism daily.

[@TainyaGaming]

Can I ask you what that list would look like?

[@NYG5]

They think socialism is appealing because they don't want to have to risk anything in this world, which is understandable but unrealistic, and they also would be unhappy with bare bones combloc block apartments because it would be "undignified" for them, they want to be able to be the barista and have no worries while the state provides them a gucci house and gucci health benefits.

[@rakesrunner]

@@TainyaGaming Why would I ask for the vid, if I would already know?

[@FEEonline]

I don't really think any aspects *are* good. There are just some which are more or less destructive. A little socialism isn't going to destroy an economy, but I also don't see any ways in which it is actually a benefit either. Every part of the US economy, for example, that is directly owned or significantly controlled by the government is poorer quality and more expensive than the parts that aren't and there's no evidence that this trend will ever turn around.

[@rakesrunner]

@@NYG5 Yes, I get it; most Twitter communists are infantile dreamers. Yet, I thought the most successful and people-friendly economies integrated some socialistic institutions into their capitalistic basis, like Scandinavian, for example. So it would be pretty interesting to know what parts of socialism can be helpful.

[@basedshaman6183]

I believe if you make the coffee you should keep the profit, so long as you also own the sugar, cream, coffee beans, the mug you put the coffee in, the payment processing, the servers for the payment processing, cable lines that carry the payment info, and lot you sell the coffee from. Only then can you keep the profit…

[@boigercat]

Well said mate, I'll definitely be sharing this around

[@ElZato]

171 people have never experienced Socialism or have any idea of what it is.

[@fiendishghoul1649]

Thank you for all the work you and your team does. It helps me explain very complicated concepts to my friends.

[@TickedOffPriest]

If you are the one who plays with the toys, you should own the classroom.

[@chthonianboy]

I always had this nagging feeling watching this channel´s videos, like you were pushing against communism from a place different from the intelect, something more visceral but couldnt put my finger on it... until now that I get to know the staff: this is a freaking therapy group for communism PTSD! I agree with every single thing you said in this video but holy s if all made perfect sense after watching your backstories, this was Fight Club tier level of catharsis.

[@eugeneforge]

Showing us the staff at FEE gives a whole new perspective on your content. Thank you for sharing their backgrounds.

[@neonbunnies9596]

12:16 It's mostly because despair pools into bad ideas. The supporters of socialism are likely those who feel that they've been left behind, and want something to help them. If they feel like they're not being heard, this despair turns into anger and violence, and anger is motivating. Despair doesn't get you to donate money or protest or even riot in front if buildings, anger does. And as this anger grows, it's only natural that they start to support more and more extreme beliefs. For example, the Alt-Right targets white males who feel like society is pushing them away or changing too fast, because it easily be turned into anger, and as this anger grows, they only fall deeper into the rabbit hole. While defeating their extreme ideas is good, if that anger still exists, they're just going to go somewhere else, assuming they haven't gone full echo chamber. Socialism is bad, but still highlights problems that need fixing.

[@elenabob4953]

Sorry but I don't consider those who attended College payed by their parents that way. I see them as pampered spoiled brats who don't know a thing about how the real world works. The ones who struggled and started to create a life for themselves since highschool will never think in those terms .

[@neonbunnies9596]

@@elenabob4953 so these people feel that they are being left behind... and your solution is to keep leaving them behind? Their solutions might be wrong, but they highlight issues that need more attention

[@AsylumEscapade]

We can go back to the first try of communism in North America by looking at Jamestown. The people that were in Jamestown decided to do a collective means of production; they would share what they'd done to the rest of the colony, thus, having certain individuals be lazy and not aid. When the winter hit, you know what happened. So, when the big cohoney got back and saw the devestation, he proclaimed that every surviving colonist keep what they made for themselves, unless they want to share it. The colony thrived again.

[@joeribaars5481]

democratic control of the means of production doesnt have to be central planning, and you could simply have Co-ops. The power in balance corporations and investors have is the problem, in germaney half of a board is run by the workers that way you are again not ruling from the top. a worker has less of in incentive to flood their home town with waste and garbage than a CEO and a few investors. the amount of wealth that's hoarded like dragons doesn't contribute to the economie and isn't in the best interest of us all and the planet and a progressive tax on wealth shouldn't be something controversial.

[@pricklypear1643]

Hearing you say "cringe"... it's just beautiful.

[@lobalee1873]

I wish I could like this video a million more times. This is so well said. Thank you!

[@beowulf916]

"And yet, he can't even imagine why someone wouldn't support socialism. Well, I struggle to imagine why anyone does." I can answer that second part for you: because it SOUNDS good, if you've no understanding of how the world works, and how successful economies are run. It's like when you're 5 years old, and you proudly tell your kindergarten teacher that if you were president, then you would make everything free and everyone would be happy. Of course you think that that would solve everything...BECAUSE YOU'RE FIVE.

[@ChryI]

YOU WILL LIVE IN THE POD YOU WILL EAT THE BUGS YOU WILL OWN NOTHING AND YOU WILL BE HAPPY

[@lylejames965]

Dad, I wanna be a socialist when I grow up…make up your mind son, you can’t be both

[@yitivitzen5239]

As someone who works at Starbucks, I can honestly say what David Harbour said is completely idiotic. Let do people! Let do!

[@hunn20004]

"you're making it, you're the one making the coffee" And you're also taking beans, water, electricity and coffee maker (+maintenance) of the owner, so you should pay for them. Instead we immediately subtract that back and forth and only consider the labour. Otherwise, sure, you might get 4 dollars per coffee but you immediately pay 3.50 for rent + whatever else is needed. A results based pay is preferred, where if your branch is outperforming with fewer people, then of course you should receive more payment. But you have to negotiate it in the contract.

[@popeservant8156]

2

[@Chujutsu]

I think the idea can be summarized as: In order to make apple pie, you first need to invent the universe. Can you invent the universe? No? Then acknowledge the fact that you’ll have to interact with capitalists

[@BenWard29]

I get so frustrated now because I see these young tankies with no context of history and an emotionally-based fervent hatred of capitalism have just the most uninformed takes. But what you're doing also seems fallacious to me. You are using a person only obliquely informed in the topic, and using just a couple of quotes. This is nut-picking and (maybe)straw-manning. You're not looking at a complete argument- in fact, I don't think he really makes one. I also think you're using a simplistic reading of history- maybe I missed it, but I didn't hear of FDR "saving Capitalism" by instituting necessary changes that are popular with the majority of Americans, no matter their ideology, in your video, which is an important critique of where capitalism got us early on (i.e. robber-barons, company stores, etc). FDR refused to be labeled a Socialist- so I won't do that. But many of his fixes were from that playbook. I think he also understood that getting so wrapped up in the labelling of something can make people more concerned about that label than the actual benefits of the idea. Arguing directly with the merits of the idea is the logical way to do this- not to say "socialism/capitalism/communism bad" and move on. Firstly, David Harbour is not a politician or probably very politically thoughtful. I think he, like many people, see that our society has many issues that can/should be solved by the government, but are being ignored. We have a society that prioritizes order over justice- you can see that whenever those two items are in opposition- order almost always wins. I slightly disagree with Harbour's take, but I don't think he's put the time into being able to articulate his thoughts very well, so I wouldn't exactly bust his balls for it. I don't think anyone is going to laud him as a great political thinker. No-one is going to say "I'm a Harbour-ite" when asked what their take on the government's role in the economy, so I am not sure why critisizing him is worthwhile. Why not go after a Socialist academic? That won't get as many views, I suppose, and since you're just using it as a framework for this video, sure- I'm fine with it. What I have a problem with is to look at these ideas like the book has been closed- capitalism good, socialism bad, communism worse. These are complex ideas, and I think you are doing exactly what Harbour is doing, but you're taking a freshman-year young-conservative's point of view rather than Harbour's edgy high school socialist view- so not much of an improvement. Capitalism/socialism/communism- these are really just frameworks from which to develop dynamical systems from- and no functional version of these systems that I know of operates in a pure state- they all borrow elements from each other in practice. I hope we realized that purity of political system is not the hallmark of a properly working system. There are many problems that capitalism alone can't solve- the free-rider problem or the tragedy of the commons. The onus is on you to properly represent your ideas, and I think you are doing it with an eye toward a system you agree with ideologically and you are having some weak arguments because of that. For instance, you talk about Nationalization and how that denies property rights (etc) without acknowledging that this is done anytime there is a government. To affirm the property rights of anyone, you have to deny another's rights of some kind. We already draw the line between where the individual good cannot conflict with the collective good. That's a government's job in a nutshell- and to act like it's only Socialism that does this is ridiculous. And to say that nationalization only takes capital from those that created it, without acknowledging that for those people to make those things, they need a government of some kind to provide all of the things a government can provide- fiat currency, education for the workers, roads, protection of private property, etc, is trying not to speak of these things as a balance between this individual and collective good. Where we draw that line is a key difference in everyone's politics. I don't know anyone except for the most ideologically pure libertarians that don't agree with some form of collective good. So I'm personally not a fan of Communism, but I do think that if you want to push people into accepting Marx's ideas uncritically, then the wealth disparity and political/corporate bottom of the deck dealing taking place in the U.S. since Nixon's administration is a great way to do it- we have the perfect system now. It's a volatile pot of alienation, ouroboros-like consumerism, stagnant wages, lack of community-mindedness, feeling of no future (climate change, fewer job opportunities). When the young people today see how the previous generations kicked the can down the road over and over because short-term profits and ideas of infinite growth were prioritized over long-term stability and any focus on our communities, it is a soul-crushing experience. I feel for them. Our country needs to "clean it's room" and properly clean up the tax code (by elimination the issues that cause multi-billion dollar companies to pay no effective tax, and increase the tax burden of those making above a million dollars), rebuild the social safety net, set up a single payer health-care system, get serious about climate change, etc, etc... there are too many other things on here to list. Also, authoritarianism and socialism aren't tied together- you don't have to have a strong state directing factories under socialism. Socialism could be just many co-ops selling their goods to a "free" market. Basically, take exactly what we have today, replace 50% of businesses with co-ops, (the other 50% are owner controlled businesses), allow worker unions, and make sure the market is fair and safe (split up monopolies, regulate safety and purity of drugs/food/etc) and you've got a functioning Socialist system, per Richard Wolff. Sounds not terribly different from the system we have today. And please, let's not get into the "he has 6 million dollars so he can't be a socialist argument". I don't think that argument holds much water because you're not looking at the person's ideas- you're basically calling them a hypocrite. That's fine if you want to do that, but it's not an interesting argument. That someone holds wealth in a capitalist system, regardless of their personal beliefs is, I think, totally a non-starter. What we should look at is their actions beyond their net worth. Things like donations to charity, conspicuous/luxury consumption, how they treat those that they employee, donations to politicians, etc, reveal much more about a person's true beliefs than just that they get paid a lot and happen to not spend it all. And the "if he's a socialist he should just give it to the government" argument is also stupid, because most wealthy people realize that just giving their money to the government is like a drop in the bucket- you can do more by using that money to institute real change, like making yourself and other wealthy people pay a reasonable amount of taxes. If we upped his taxes and he complained, then I would say he's a hypocrite. Sorry for the novel. I just can't speak on these things in twitter-length comments.

[@FEEonline]

There's a lot here... But, I'm going to do my best to address what I think are the most important bits. 1) "I get so frustrated now because I see these young tankies with no context of history and an emotionally-based fervent hatred of capitalism have just the most uninformed takes. But what you're doing also seems fallacious to me." Totally disagree. 2) "You are using a person only obliquely informed in the topic, and using just a couple of quotes. This is nut-picking and (maybe)straw-manning." Harbour's views are *extremely* common, and I'm using him as an example because he's a fairly major celebrity in a giant movie who just promoted these ideas to millions of people during a press tour that was backed by a couple hundred million dollar ad campaign. Seems worth doing. 3) "You're not looking at a complete argument- in fact, I don't think he really makes one." He doesn't. I've made a far more complete argument than Harbour even attempted to make, and I brought in definitions that would be widely accepted by any academic on the subjects I'm discussing. 4) "I also think you're using a simplistic reading of history- maybe I missed it, but I didn't hear of FDR "saving Capitalism" by instituting necessary changes that are popular with the majority of Americans, no matter their ideology, in your video, which is an important critique of where capitalism got us early on (i.e. robber-barons, company stores, etc). FDR refused to be labeled a Socialist- so I won't do that. But many of his fixes were from that playbook." FDR *was* a socialist. He was also literally a fan of fascism and praised Mussolini prior to WWII. More to the point, the New Deal did *NOT* "save Capitalism" in any sense. To the contrary, it prolonged the Great Depression by several years. I'd highly recommend this book by FEE's President Emeritus Lawrence Reed: fee.org/resources/great-myths-of-the-great-depression/ Also read this: www.wsj.com/articles/SB123353276749137485 I don't particularly care about labels, however. What I care about is the *actions* that we're talking about, which is why I tried to be very clear about definitions. I then proceeded to explain exactly *why* socialism/communism is bad. In no way did I just call it a name and "move on". I've also got DOZENS of other videos on this channel that dig into other details on this point. 3) "Firstly, David Harbour is not a politician or probably very politically thoughtful. I think he, like many people, see that our society has many issues that can/should be solved by the government, but are being ignored... Why not go after a Socialist academic? " I've done that periodically, too. But the point is to get people to actually *watch* the video. Talking about something super wonky that someone they've never heard of said doesn't really do that. Nor does it really change the arguments I would make -- particularly not here. I gave the academic definitions of terms and we showed plenty of footage and articles from more academic or thoughtful sources, and they all basically say the same stuff. Harbour's version is more childish than most, but to be blunt, it's *all* pretty childish and poorly thought-out. 4) "We have a society that prioritizes order over justice- you can see that whenever those two items are in opposition- order almost always wins." I'm not really sure what that has to do with what this video is about. Harbour may indeed see some things that are wrong with the world, and i may agree with some of them, but that doesn't change the fact that rejecting private property and markets is a tremendously bad idea built on supremely flawed arguments. 5) "What I have a problem with is to look at these ideas like the book has been closed- capitalism good, socialism bad, communism worse." Again, not to be too flippant, but that book *SHOULD BE* closed. We have mountains upon mountains of evidence and a very clear understanding of why socialism (and more so communism) creates disastrous results again and again, all over the world. We have innumerable examples of countries that have allowed their government to take over their economies in the name of socialism and communism and which have subsequently created nothing but poverty and economic destruction. We have side-by-side comparisons using the same population demographics in places like West vs. East Germany or North vs. South Korea. You have 6) "These are complex ideas, and I think you are doing exactly what Harbour is doing, but you're taking a freshman-year young-conservative's point of view rather than Harbour's edgy high school socialist view- so not much of an improvement. Capitalism/socialism/communism- these are really just frameworks from which to develop dynamical systems from- and no functional version of these systems that I know of operates in a pure state- they all borrow elements from each other in practice." Yes, every system is some kind of mix of state control and individual action. That doesn't change the fact that the evidence is utterly clear that 7) "I hope we realized that purity of political system is not the hallmark of a properly working system. There are many problems that capitalism alone can't solve- the free-rider problem or the tragedy of the commons." Free rider and Tragedy of the Commons problems are vastly *more* an issue in socialist states. So these are very strange arguments. We also know the answer to both: Private property rights. Tragedies of the commons are an enormous problem in societies that reject property rights (that's literally what the "commons" is -- a set of resources that are unowned and over which there is no clear decision-making authority). Capitalism -- defined in the standard way as: ": an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market" -- *is* the antidote to those issues, to the extent it is put into practice. Free riders, likewise, are mostly only an issue to the extent that the state is forcing some groups of people to pay for the well-being of other groups who are not paying. Otherwise, if we're focused on creating a voluntary market-based economy, people are either paying for themselves or voluntarily offering to pay on behalf of others (ie. via charity, etc.) and the free rider issues largely go away. 8) "The onus is on you to properly represent your ideas, and I think you are doing it with an eye toward a system you agree with ideologically and you are having some weak arguments because of that." I'm often baffled by the suggestion that my job here is to spend loads of time making arguments in favor of a position I *don't* agree with. It's a weird suggestion... But let's talk about the "weak" arguments. 9) "...you talk about Nationalization and how that denies property rights (etc) without acknowledging that this is done anytime there is a government." Of course it's done constantly by governments all the time. That doesn't make it a good thing. Most of us tolerate some violations of liberty for practical reasons -- especially where we can't think of better ways to do something. But for most of human history, we can measure legitimate progress by how much individuals have autonomy over their own lives, which inherently means taking more power away from the state. 10) "To affirm the property rights of anyone, you have to deny another's rights of some kind." False. Let's say you own a car. It is not a violation of *my* rights for you to assert that I'm not allowed to steal it. That's the whole point of property rights -- to clearly establish claims of ownership such that we can adjudicate the ethical limits of action. You do not have a right to steal from other people any more than you have a right to assault or murder them. Restricting theft isn't a violation of someone else's rights. 11) "We already draw the line between where the individual good cannot conflict with the collective good. That's a government's job in a nutshell- and to act like it's only Socialism that does this is ridiculous." No. Government's job -- to the extent it has a legitimate job to do -- is to protect people's lives and property from violations of rights by other citizens or external attackers. It is not to uphold something as nebulously defined as "the common good". In fact, one of my very first videos on this series was about the idea of the greater good. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oH_LoKGvlL2farc&ab_channel=FoundationforEconomicEducation

[@FEEonline]

12) "And to say that nationalization only takes capital from those that created it, without acknowledging that for those people to make those things, they need a government of some kind to provide all of the things a government can provide- fiat currency, education for the workers, roads, protection of private property, etc, is trying not to speak of these things as a balance between this individual and collective good. Where we draw that line is a key difference in everyone's politics. I don't know anyone except for the most ideologically pure libertarians that don't agree with some form of collective good." Well... See above. The collective good is a messy, mostly useless concept that is often used to justify all sorts of terrible ideas. I'd strongly encourage anyone to adopt the following three-part test of public policy ideas from Duke University economist, Michael Munger: a. Go ahead, make your argument for what you want the State to do, and what you want the State to be in charge of. b. Then, go back and look at your statement. Everywhere you said "the State," delete that phrase and replace it with "politicians I actually know, running in electoral systems with voters and interest groups that actually exist." c. If you still believe your statement, then we have something to talk about. fee.org/articles/unicorn-governance/?gclid=CjwKCAjwmqKJBhAWEiwAMvGt6EldO_yiTlpH1oiC_pecJvEbbiKs0l6OSLmySxWuTNLauetTTaHZfhoCxiwQAvD_BwE 13) "So I'm personally not a fan of Communism, but I do think that if you want to push people into accepting Marx's ideas uncritically, then the wealth disparity and political/corporate bottom of the deck dealing taking place in the U.S. since Nixon's administration is a great way to do it- we have the perfect system now. It's a volatile pot of alienation, ouroboros-like consumerism, stagnant wages, lack of community-mindedness, feeling of no future (climate change, fewer job opportunities). When the young people today see how the previous generations kicked the can down the road over and over because short-term profits and ideas of infinite growth were prioritized over long-term stability and any focus on our communities, it is a soul-crushing experience." The problem... Is that while I agree with some of the above, a lot simply isn't true. For instance, you might see headlines that say the average CEO pay has increased nearly 1,000% compared to 12% for the average worker since 1978. But the studies that support that claim only looked at CEOs of the largest 350 companies. But there are about 6.1 million employer businesses in the US, 98.1% of which are under 100 employees, and 89.1% of which have fewer than 20 employees. The average small business CEO makes a little over $131k per year, not millions. sbecouncil.org/about-us/facts-and-data/ www.comparably.com/salaries/salaries-for-small-business-ceo Likewise, pay actually hasn't stagnated as much as many people think. www.cato.org/commentary/annoying-persistence-income-stagnation-myth I also see very little evidence that people are less "community minded" today than they ever have been. A lot of these ideas are definitely contributing factors for young people thinking capitalism has "failed", but they're living in the wealthiest country in human history -- a country which has effectively eradicated absolute poverty (and actually sets the poverty line higher than the average income of many European countries -- fee.org/articles/the-poorest-20-of-americans-are-richer-than-most-nations-of-europe/); where there are hundreds of thousands of open jobs; where cost of most goods & services that aren't provided or heavily influenced by the state have steadily gotten cheaper while quality continually improves; etc. -- and yet they don't seem to be getting that message. I'd argue that the uncertainty has to do with what they're being taught and what ideas are being promoted by media, more than anything that reflects truth about the world. In fact, I argued exactly that here a couple years ago: fee.org/articles/young-minds-are-undermined-by-todays-fashionable-philosophies/ 14) "Ifeel for them. Our country needs to "clean it's room" and properly clean up the tax code (by elimination the issues that cause multi-billion dollar companies to pay no effective tax, and increase the tax burden of those making above a million dollars), rebuild the social safety net, set up a single payer health-care system, get serious about climate change, etc, etc... there are too many other things on here to list." Unfortunately, your basket of proposals is not going to make life easier for anyone -- let alone young people. It will do the opposite, though. 15) "Also, authoritarianism and socialism aren't tied together- you don't have to have a strong state directing factories under socialism." Yes they are. I explained *exactly* why this is the case in the video. 16) "Socialism could be just many co-ops selling their goods to a "free" market. Basically, take exactly what we have today, replace 50% of businesses with co-ops, (the other 50% are owner controlled businesses), allow worker unions, and make sure the market is fair and safe (split up monopolies, regulate safety and purity of drugs/food/etc) and you've got a functioning Socialist system, per Richard Wolff. Sounds not terribly different from the system we have today." Worker-owned co-ops are perfectly legal and allowable under a capitalist system. There are 26.5 million sole-proprietor firms right now which are exactly that. I own one of those. I am the owner and the sole employee of a multimedia production and consulting firm. If you want to get 10 of your best buddies together and start a shop where you all have equal stake in ownership, you're perfectly welcome to do that. It's still a private firm and you still have the right to make decisions about your company however you want -- which is rather emphatically *not* socialism. The fact that this approach hasn't ever really caught on should tell you more about how effective it is in general rather than whether or not you're allowed to do it. You're totally allowed. Everybody is. There's not even any large movement against it. Nobody cares if you set up your company that way. Yet almost no one does it. Why? Simply having worker-owned firms is not a sufficient definition of socialism any more than the existence of a market in an economy somewhere is sufficient for an economy to be considered capitalist. Socialism is not individuals choosing to organize private businesses the way they see fit. It is collective ownership and control over the means of production overall -- which means centralized control built around some form of political process. You cannot get around this.

[@mattlaw1350]

The funny thing is about Capitalism is that the kid working at Starbucks can be an owner (at least partially ) because Starbucks is a publicly traded company. Just buy the stocks.