WoW TBC Retribution Paladin: A Quick Meta Guide

[@spage0]

Something I just read on paladin discord: "You'd still judge crusader to start to give the crit buff to the raid But the only time you would ever use any ability that is not crusader strike is if it isn't interrupting a twist Because every dps button we have that is not CS is worse than a twist. So you stop judging, you stop using consecration, you stop using exorcism if they would prevent you from twisting your next swing And you even try to force CS to be in a window where it doesn't interrupt a twist Even if it means significant delays It warps the entirety of how paladins play around twisting..." -Smeet, Pretty Lame Paladin Sheet Discord, #TBC-Discussion, 3/7/21 Thought you guys should know!

[@spage0]

*”Knot pinned your comment”* _Whoa_ I’m officially a cool kid 😎

[@tonederf6419]

Good to know. Looking forward to playing ret

[@Nobleshield]

Twisting is one of those things that feels totally degenerate because it's very clearly not intended gameplay and s min-maxing :(

[@spage0]

@@Nobleshield I think it really depends on the player. Some people feel like you - that it's simply not fun - and other people really enjoy it

[@tonederf6419]

@@spage0 seal twisting has definitely added a bit of flavor to the class and some pvp potential. catching mages with a SoComm Judgement Justice twist as they blink is the greatest feeling

[@BackyardPvP]

Seal of blood for both factions now woop woop

[@ashiinsane90]

is that goin live in bliizard tbc??

[@BackyardPvP]

@@ashiinsane90 Yes

[@ThisEarth]

blasphemy

[@900RedChocobo]

The great escape is upon us, tunnel diggers! Amazing video as always! :)

[@lbrownluke]

Another great video. Looking forward to this channel growing as TBC approaches!

[@HippyCheez11]

I remember looking like a rogue on my ret pal during karazhan due to expertise gear being so needed.

[@Varaben]

The tier 5 clown suit was real.

[@louisoost121]

Great video. My mind is already wrecked in trying to cover all my bases or most at least when entering TBC, depending ofc how they decide to launch it.

[@KnotxD]

Yeah there is alot of change to consider! But given your YT handle, I'm sure you'll be blasting in TBC just fine haha.

[@cherryflavorlive812]

i was looking forward to this since your sneak peak :P keep it up

[@Typokeke]

Missed a spot for an ELEKK in the room

[@KnotxD]

Actually disappointed in my self

[@joeyh31]

Great video. Very concise. I appreciate the information.

[@Nikolay1114]

judgement of command in classic mele hit. Attack Speed increasing effects DO NOT decrease your % chance to proc, your chance to proc an attack is based off your BASE weapon speed, so increasing the attack speed does not have any effect on your chance to hit.

[@KnotxD]

Maybe I was unclear but thats exactly why Seal of Blood scales so well. What I should have perhaps said was: "Haste scales like X for Ret pala using Seal of Command, but changing to Seal of Blood, which scales with haste, means you scale like Y as a ret pala with haste". If that makes sense. It's hard to be brief at times, apologies if it doesn't come across very well. All TBC servers and live back then (all posts from that time say this) had spell hit as judgment of command, so maybe it will change for classic, but its 100% correct to assume at this point that spell hit will be the modifier on judgment of command.

[@Nikolay1114]

@@KnotxD You haven't said anything about Seal of Command 20% spel damage scaling Seal of Blood 0 %

[@KnotxD]

@@Nikolay1114 No, I didn't find it relevant for an abbreviated look such as this. You won't be gearing for spell damage, so the scaling difference is really a minimal thing.

[@Nikolay1114]

@@KnotxD Judgement of of Righteousness spel is hawe x1.5 crit damage requires spel hit, judgement of command x2 crit damage so its will bee mele hit

[@Nikolay1114]

@@KnotxD Judgement of the Crusader +219 Holy spell damage + raid buffs

[@nickelodeann]

I'm so torn right now and I'd love any input. I absolutely love the gameplay and fantasy of ret pally in tbc. However, I've seen how good prot is, and would also love to get into groups fast and tank; I'd like to be more of a commodity. But ret will always be my overall priority. Obviously we don't have dual spec, what would you guys recommend I do? Should I tank at the start of tbc as I get gold and gear for ret?

[@KnotxD]

I think ret is a fantastic choice for tbc especially since seal twisting was endorsed and enabled by blizzard for tbc classic. Prot off spec will be extremely helpful for dungeon groups, I personally would farm/do dungeons as Prot and raid as ret if I were maining ret. Simply due to how much gold/smooth dungeons you can accomplish between raids. Nothing wrong with farming or dungeoning as ret but so much easier as prot.

[@nickelodeann]

@@KnotxD thanks for the advice! Sounds like a good plan, I'm super excited to start tbc

[@smokedoggxxl]

Please do a video about seal twisting

[@grassrot]

Sorry to burst your bubble, in the pvp section what the ret pala was doing was not WF, it was sealtwisting. :)

[@MrBrownsugar85]

im getting my ret ready for when we become monsters in wotlk lol

[@slimthecatdad]

Your videos are so good. Keep it up!

[@craserx6267]

Holy priest next? :)

[@baseballfan4877]

nice been waiting for this

[@jacobk4n3]

Can’t wait to main Ret pal

[@TheBenzooh]

What do you mean you're Not here. in the intro

[@valathaerieldawnblade6075]

Thanks for the video

[@twentyneleafyfangirls1616]

if your stat list is on a "per point" normalisation, why would the highest stat be strength/ap? strength gives AT LEAST 2.2 times the value of AP for ret, even more so in a raid environment, and combined with you listing ArP consistently lower (as it is, per point, weaker) but with the mindset of it still being the strongest lategame stat, you should do the same with ap, as it is, per point, much worse than strength, expertise, and haste as well.

[@KnotxD]

True, I had some difficulties in the logistics of the stats visually. I fully understand what you mean, my general approach was just that its pretty rare to have items without strength/AP and in the usual case, they're usually budgeted the same way - IE same item level piece will usually have 2 AP : 1 Str if they don't share the same format of stat. Of course, some exist without either such as the Lower City exalted ring etc, but yeah, it was more of a creative difficulty than anything else. Perhaps it'd have been better to just get rid of AP to reduce any confusion cause you can imply AP from Strength.

[@twentyneleafyfangirls1616]

@@KnotxD yeah i get that, its more a concern i have for newer players getting confused by the two different approaches also i was quite surprised by your sub count, as these videos are VERY good, and especially the enh one helped me a bit!

[@Rinacgolf]

What would the macro be for judgement and seal combined? I tried one but it doesn’t refresh my seal all the time .

[@Kankuro998]

one thing you're missing in your videos is the basic rotation of the specs. i for one would like to know how fun it might be to play by seeing the abilities it regularly uses

[@KnotxD]

Just to check I understand the feedback - you mean you'd like to see what the rotation is step by step over X time compared to what is presented at the moment?

[@Kankuro998]

@@KnotxD For example, I think viewers would appreciate seeing all of the new abilities a spec gets in TBC. Skipping over something like crusader aura or spell reflect could change their decision on the class they choose to play. I for one use your videos to check out what looks fun in TBC or what has improved in the class since classic. Maybe that information would be best presented in another kind of video since your meta videos focus more on things that someone still raiding naxx and spending hundreds of gold on consumes would want to see. Consider making a video series about more general things each class gets in TBC and how it changes its specs. I think it would be more appealing to other viewers that want a quick look at how the spec now plays rather than seeing stat priorities and such. Just a suggestion; I think you have a good foundation and format for your videos but what you make tends to appeal to the smaller minmaxer viewer base that may very well already know everything there is to know about the class/meta. One other thing I'd like to add is that when watching your enhancement shaman video I was a bit confused on how totem twisting works. (the summoning 2 totems of the same type part) As alliance, it's not really common knowledge. Additionally, since master smithing is new in TBC, I think it would be a good idea to explain to people how it works and how long it takes to get the weapon they're after.

[@KnotxD]

@@Kankuro998 thanks for the time spent on this feedback, I appreciate it. I'll definitely look to do more videos catered towards a broader audience. It's definitely the motive of this series to try be brief and cover only the broad strokes but I'll definitely think about some other type of content. Honestly thank you for taking the time, it is genuinely helpful.

[@Kankuro998]

@@KnotxD No problem, I see lots of potential in your videos and I think you'll do well moving forward. Keep it up with the time segments in your vids, people love those.

[@randomrandom7208]

Nice video, but I always thought main reason for ret paladin in raid was refreshing seals from other paladins, like wisdom and light.

[@codyclark6779]

That is a plus from ret but the main reason is the 3%crit they bring for the raids dps and the 2% dmg buff they give to their party.

[@TheSeminexus]

Not sure if the numbers will be the same on classic as they are on private servers, but the general consensus on private servers is that mace spec is the best BS weapon for ret even in PvE

[@llwonder]

Swords look cooler tho so I gonna go that

[@Kronosxviii1]

Holy Wrath and Exorcism still scale with spell power in WotLK, it's just that in wrath we have talent that converts attack power to spellpower

[@knaos]

Great video Knot! Could u do Spriest next?

[@KnotxD]

Hey! I actually have a shadow priest guide already! The only thing is, the racial section was unfortunately a derp on my part, there is a pinned comment with a reply that has a good breakdown of the racials - but everything else should be helpful!

[@Suckynewb]

I don't see anyone talking about Ally paladins seal weaving, is stacking Seal of Vengeance to 5 with a quick One-Hander and then maintaining it unfeasible? I remember hearing Blood Elves DPS with Seal of Blood because it applies to all attacks and then judge Command because it does more damage.

[@KnotxD]

Seal twisting may be a thing. In Classic seal twisting is somewhat a thing already, but on private servers the extent of Seal of Blood/Command twisting is potentially a little off when you compare to the two interactions. Boris' comment on this video touches on this, so the seal twisting stuff is a little up in the air, hence my reluctance to cover it. As far as seal of vengeance goes, It doesn't appear to be optimal damage - IE everyone doing well as an alliance ret pala that has uploaded logs isn't using vengeance at all. I can't speak beyond that unfortunately, but I will definitely say that the one area of innovation/new stuff when we get live will be related to how much you can push from seal shenanigans - or if at all, if that is what blizz goes with. The silver lining in my mind is that alliance is still solid even if you're just using plain old seal of command, so any additional innovation/findings will be a nice boost.

[@ethan8445]

thats weird isnt seal of command capped at 8 times/7 times per minute? while seal of martyr isnt capped at all?

[@sirpieman300]

i plan to make my pally ret for raids, and prot for dungeon farming. should i still go Sword smith or should i grab something else?

[@KnotxD]

I'm going to be testing all blacksmithing options on Beta this midweek when there's more testing options, so I will try to release a full comprehensive look at the weapons and their strength for each spec. My current understanding is that Mace vs Sword is alot closer for Ret than other specs, however, Iwould assume Lionheart edges it. I'll be testing the Lionheart proc rate as much as possible to try get a more precise understanding for the classic client. If you plan to PvP, I'd probably go Macesmith personally but again, will try to confirm ASAP with a data driven video from beta

[@HuMaOne69]

seal twisting has been tested on the last PTR build of classic with batching at 10ms and its RIP, its impossible to do it with low spell batching

[@KnotxD]

Thanks for the clarification! it did look kinda OP, at least the Endless version.

[@Ant12468]

it's been fixed now, seal twisting is back

[@KnotxD]

@@Ant12468 just saw that, very interesting that Blizz intervened. Hopefully a good sign for appropriate changes for TBC classic.

[@tarikhansen5966]

@@KnotxD they said that paladin seals will stay for a short amount of time after changing to another seal, so we dont need spell batching anymore and its now an official gameplay of ret

[@DJSLANKMAN]

Back in da zoo

[@nathanielbaldwin7125]

Based off what is possible in classic, I imagine BE Ret Pally dps will be higher because of being able to seal twist command and blood. Overall great video, and I am glad you were able to walk away after making the video seeing that ret aren’t the meme I keep hearing about in tbc.

[@gzs7483]

with how much flak batching has gotten over classic vanilla i would expect some changes to it. So i think we will see

[@dav1d007]

As i recall it seal twisting will be hard to pull of mana wise in tbc before you get t6. Still excited for ret though nonetheless.

[@arminarmin2986]

do u have any macro for that ?! bcz i want it

[@jonathanwynne6925]

Thank you! Holy Paladin when?

[@asambi69]

Can't seem to remember how it worked in TBC retail...but can bosses even still parry/dodge from behind? I think they can dodge but not parry? Which lessens the effectiveness of Expertise?.

[@KnotxD]

You're right - Dodges can be from behind but not parries. However, the expertise value accounts for being behind the target, so its definitely on the agenda!

[@asambi69]

@@KnotxD It's good to know that already been accounted for. Thanks man, keep up the awesome work.

[@Vikingism1]

Hello! How do you get your thumbnail images of wow characters?

[@KnotxD]

I would use older model viewer apps (and I'm still trying to find a TBC version for some machinima-like segments to other video ideas) but currently, I just use WowHead dressing room and then remove the background with photoshop.

[@arravadin]

What was the Dragonstrike comment about? Can rets use Dragonstrike somehow?

[@KnotxD]

In a previous video, I had promised a deep dive on dragonstrike for orcs, I think I was mentioning that I'd be fine to do a deep dive on Seal of Blood versus Command if people were really keen for it, but the short version is that its 10-15% better to use Seal of Blood depending on stage of the game.

[@arravadin]

@@KnotxD ahhh gotcha, I think I may have just misinterpreted what you said. Thank you for the response o/

[@brieucferaud1037]

some of the informations of this video seem wrong Armor penetration isn't great for paladin from what I could gather, as, just like in classic, holy damage can't be resisted and isn't affected by armor (that's how paladin crush warriors in pvp in classic), making only 30-40% of your damages affected by the stat. haste seem like the most important stat for seal of command by far too, as faster attacks will help you keep up vengeance (and lower your need for a lot of crit) vengeance doesn't last 8 seconds like in classic, so it looks way easier to maintain.

[@KnotxD]

I understand your viewpoint but even with it only affecting around 50% of the damage, ArP is a dumb stat with crazy amounts on it per slot. Paired with the many low armor bosses, its going to become a top stat just through how powerful the stat is. There's a reason it got removed from the game.

[@brieucferaud1037]

@@KnotxD could you please share your sources? I can't find anything relevant online, only posts from 2007-8 saying contradictory things

[@nocoin5118]

Can u share the link to arena ranking?

[@Thor_Asgard_]

only play ret if you are horde. horde is heavily favoured in tbc. if they dont change sob and sov for both faction i will also switch to horde. alliance dies out.

[@Starplaya]

Yeah I’ve been playing ret in classic in a good raid guild getting all the great loot, privilege I must admit , then I played hunter so I’m All in alliance but if they won’t change I have to change to horde even if I like alliance more

[@Thor_Asgard_]

@@Starplaya same goes for me, very nice guild, got everything, dft kots ash, but i dont want to be last place all the time anymore ^^ and in tbc its so different, bloodelf does more caster dmg, which is much better in later raid content + the consistency of sob. also sob has better alphastrike potential and you dont need to fight over gear that much with the warris. give horde sov and ally sob. wotlk fixed all of that imbalance.... hope blizz isnt stupid, but then again its blizzard.

[@Starplaya]

@@Thor_Asgard_ yeah i mean they will release BC classic in 2.4.3 patch state, already end of BC. and the raids will be run over like in classic, but probably they wont change real problems like the seals for pallys.. -.- they say "no changes" but they changed ALOT in classic by starting with patch 1.13

[@dbgarf]

in TBC Classic alliance paladins have Seal of the Martyr, which is identical to Seal of Blood. this is a non-issue now.

[@Thor_Asgard_]

@@dbgarf damn you smart coming here after 6 month and blizz giving in to the pressure. horde is still heavily favoured with pvp.

[@giovannisilano]

Does anybody know if Blessing of Sacrifice procs Reckoning?

yes its procs

[@thorbeorn4295]

You think it would be a bad idea to give alliance pallies SoB too in classic tbc? I mean we all know everyone plays horde in tbc and SoB is such a unfair deal. If they made alliance have SoB too it would fix the balance between factions and I see that as very important. Otherwise, there's gonna be like 90% horde.

[@KnotxD]

So, I personally am okay with it sharing faction. I also think people are overstating faction imbalance that is going to be generated by seal of blood. The difference isn't as huge as people say but its definitely significant. But also, there's only 1 ret pala per raid. So TLDR - imo SoB is probably best to be shared. But I think it's more that blood elves are just insanely popular visually to so many. On TBC release, people rerolled horde in droves but mostly to play a pretty little elf to be quite honest.

[@thorbeorn4295]

@@KnotxD I think it's about 12% better dps with SoB. Byt yeah I agree. I just want better faction balances. I will play in a pve server though and I must add that people there do not care as much about minmaxing. People should know that.

[@KnotxD]

@@thorbeorn4295 yeah that's the rough number I came up with too when looking through a bunch of logs. It's big but not big enough on 1 raid slot to swing masses. But like you say, I'm in favour of any changes to TBC that improve experience such as phased content with arena seasons, seals being accessible etc. I'm not sure what the perfect outcome would be, I'm not sure you need to do *too* much to bring some kind of balance but clearly something should be considered. Hopefully they nail it.

[@vitaseliseenko8791]

they are actually gonna give alliance pallies sob

[@andreasthomsen5945]

Can you craft lionheart and then swap to another profession than blacksmith and still use it?

[@KnotxD]

Sadly not, you have to retain the specialisation of the weapon to equip.

[@andreasthomsen5945]

Arh okay thank you.

[@aggrobreaker]

Ret paladin who is part of the raid team never gets improved BoM, they pick Kings. If you have 3 paladins in a raid they buff Prot - salv on raid and light on tanks, Ret - kings on everyone, Holy - imp wisdom/might.

[@Caperfin]

In a truly min-max raid you'll have paladin Buff bots outside the raid entrance.

[@Niko_3D]

I truly hope they are going to nerf drums into ground. Can argue no changes well f that, we all have seen what "no changes" brought us in classic wow. Unless they go patch by patch with difficulty. Smp will too fall on same day as it releases.

[@KnotxD]

I would also not mind a drum nerf - I am very confident they will at least adopt a some changes approach given the late changes they've made to classic vanilla past couple phases. I'm not as upset as some just cause I'd pick the best profession 'anyway' but it helps that I main a leather wearing class for sure. I'd probably be less fine with drums if I mained a clothie for example.

[@danielsuba5566]

How much is the hit cap for pvp?

[@KnotxD]

I believe it is 3% hit for 2hand-wielders in PvP assuming target is same level as you.

[@jiakost940]

Can we have a link to website to see this arena teams?very curious

[@KnotxD]

Of course! Bare in mind that due to quite small sample sizes on private servers, the best players can reach top ranks with A tier comps aswell as S tier comps. But its a nice rough outline of whats possible: endless.gg/armory/pvp/leaderboards/2v2 atlantiss.org/armory/karazhan/arena/ladder/3#

[@jiakost940]

@@KnotxD thanks!

[@Kalameeto]

​@@jiakost940 Seal twisting is actually broken on endless, that's why resto/ret is rank 1 viable there.

[@tarikhansen5966]

@@Kalameeto no thats wrong. people back the days just didnt know about it until late phase of tbc. I played ret in tbc back the days and did seal twisting, got a pretty high rating too. endless twists are a bit different BUT not like u people cry in the forums.

[@Kalameeto]

@@tarikhansen5966 we'll see in a few months ;-)

[@Choiboi90]

didn't even mention twisting

[@TheTruDoc]

Don' t know if anyone would know but how would Ret/War/Rsham do in 3's arena? Lol should have watched the pvp overview part... Nevermind lol

[@AM-iz5cs]

Would be better with a resto druid most likely

[@tarikhansen5966]

@@AM-iz5cs nope. u take shaman cause of windfury... resto druid brings nothing to ret.

[@jacobkeller7172]

Waiting for all the people that gatekeep rets out of raids to reroll ret because its suddenly viable.

[@Caperfin]

Ret paladin was always viable.

[@kungfujoe2136]

that pala is missing a shield (or a healing offhand)

[@saltyslayer8228]

Guides are great but everyone gonna play a be pally or warlock it’s gonna be even worse than all the mage warrior of classic but everyone gonna go horde and all the vids everyone doing on them going to make even more go horde all severs gonna be 80 pct horde or worse

[@niemand262]

Don't you not love watching a not knot video?

[@samueljosephfernald4663]

Poor Alliance get the shaft in TBC. Servers gonna be 75:25 Horde:Alliance.

[@hibernian87]

I have a feeling they wont go the no changes route.

[@Starplaya]

Stick to alliance rets. Just wait a few weeks until *REXTROY* finds a way to prove seal of vengeance to be the superior seal haha

[@KnotxD]

If anyone can showcase it, it would be Rextroy. Absolute palachad.

[@Lotrick]

Very bad. Didn't watch the whole vid, but here's what's wrong with seal of blood vs seal of commad. PVE: No matter how much better seal of blood is, if your guild is at least semi-hardcore, no way it would take more than 1 retribution paladin, be it blood elf or human or dwarf or whatever. Why take another ret, when you can have another hunt or lock. On the other hand, any guild will NEED one ret pala to judge crusade and update holy/prot palas' judgements. So it doesn't matter what your dps it, your guild wants one and only one ret paladin, it doesn't matter if it's Horde of Alliance. And if your guild is pure casual, it would take people, not specs, so even a drunk dwarf paladin would be ok. PVP: Blood elves use seal of command in pvp. End of story, really. The main problem with paladins in pvp is their predictability. Seal of blood makes paladin 100% predictable. Retribution paladin wins arena with seal of command (and windfury totem) procs. The only place where seal of blood vs seal of command will matter is parses on 3rd party websites.

[@Starplaya]

Thanks man you brought logic and changed my mind. So I can be relaxed and keep playing my 60 human ret (already have a high officer rank and being the only ret) phew!

[@DidiDerp]

First one, UwU

[@oti2726]

No

[@z3yjIn]

I fear all the hipster Retris that show up in TBC

[@KnotxD]

It may actually get kinda wild with the seal twisting stuff done this week on the PTR, maybe even a FOTM case as far as melee go. MonkaS

[@kgorilla2]

quick tip: ret paladin is trash do not go for it.