Wrath of God: On Penal Substitution (Pencils & Prayer Ropes)

[@BibleIllustrated]

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[@TonyTones123]

This stuff is what brought me to Holy Orthodoxy. I grew up as an Evangelical and what I was taught didn't reconcile with each other. So naturally, because my home was built on sand, I slowly drifted from the faith. Through Gods mercy I discovered Orthodoxy, partly through your videos. So Happy Birthday to the channel!

[@loverlei79]

It was the Protestants obsession with penal substitution that drove me to the Orthodox Church. I needed more then John 3:16 on loop. There HAD to be more to Christianity then one bible verse. It always felt very transactional. Like buying a get out of hell free card that only required lip service. I was amazed when I started going to Orthodox services how saturated in scripture they were...

[@kukumatz4502]

Evangelism from people like Jack Chick actually enjoy saying it's a transaction, with phrases like "limited time offer" and "he'll wipe your record clean!" At best, it makes God sound like a salesman who hands out salvation coupons; at worst, it makes him sound like a corrupt judge who overlooks your crimes if you do what he says. This drove me away from evangelical protestantism.

[@johnbreitmeier3268]

@@kukumatz4502 UHH, Dumb Dude, The New Covenant IS a transaction. That is what Covenant means. It is a contract between two or more parties. Both have things they must do to fulfill the contract. 1) Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins and will forgive those sins if we fulfill our part of the contract. 2) Humans need to repent their sins and believe on Jesus. It is a simple contract and certainly an unequal contract but a contract nonetheless and hence a transaction. Deal with that or go to Hell. Your choice.

[@insertnamehere3106]

"The Trinity is like a brick whose leaves are liquid, gas, and sunshine" Someone hasn't listened to Donall and Conall. Quit beating around the bush, Patrick

[@insertnamehere3106]

Happy Birthday to Bible Illustrated, Bojan!

[@eldermillennial8330]

Eh, Missouri Synoders should all get their heads out of Luther’s mouth and become Western Orthodox, which is what he SHOULD have done, to Go back to before the theory of Papal Supremacy, no more or less.

[@factotum6245]

St Patricks confession of the trinity is actually quite beautiful, the shamrock-leaf thing is a later invention. Thats not what he actually teached.

[@insertnamehere3106]

@@factotum6245 What was his original confession? I'm not familiar with it

[@thekingofsomewhere]

@@insertnamehere3106 They might be talking about the prayer attributed to him, "St. Patrick's Breastplate", which starts off something like: "I bind unto myself today the strong name of the Trinity..."

[@swenner64]

Wow, We need more on Theosis! This is such a different view of Christianity that I Grew up with as a Protestant, I was taught that Penal Substitution is the gospel even taught that at Moody Bible institute preached it as a Pastor, Now I don't know what to say this is such a worldview shift.

[@johnbreitmeier3268]

That is because theosis is an evil lie from Satan Read even the wikipedia article on it before you follow this false teacher. It is Satan's old lie that you can be god. And all you have to do is work for your salvation your entire life as an asetic wonk chanting mantras like a HIndu or Buddhist.. I suggest as a first step you cut off your privates as you won't be needing them. OR if you'd rather reread the book of Galatians. Any questions?

[@winterrose4411]

"Theosis is some weird crypto -hindu teaching that crept into Christianity" This idea, along with Hesychasm, the nous etc, almost kept me from Orthodoxy. However, there is something about the concept of Theosis that makes the most sense across the board. Orthodox soteriology in general is unique in the western world, and I think we have largely lost this concept. No other church really teaches that we can literally experience God through his Energies. Everything fits together seamlessly when salvation is analyzed through an Orthodox perspective.

[@user-sm5tu9dq6p]

i like theosis... it is about reconnecting with God

[@АнгелМитков-г5ь]

There is something wrong explained in this video. Thesis is not participate in Divine nature but rather divine communion - communion with God and His influence on us with His grace, interaction with His increased energies (as energy in greek means action, or effect). Secular comparison - the nature of sun is unattainable for us, but we interact with sun trough its impacts of light and heat Christ is incarnated God, but we being humans and having communion with him become more Christ-like as st apostle Paul said.

[@albertusr6178]

it's because western christianity reject the notion of God has divine parts, instead they subscribe to the doctrine of Divine Simplicity.

[@jonathanreeve7823]

Crypto Hindu?? How’s about 2pet 1 v4 ‘partakers in the divine nature.’ No beard? No listen.

[@HickoryDickory86]

Funny you should write this, because it is the exact opposite for me. Theosis is what most strongly attracts me _to_ Orthodoxy. As a Protestant, I saw the consistent thread running throughout the Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, and recognized that not a single Protestant theology accounted for the most substantial material there, not my own tradition or any other. Still, I pressed on and was developing my own biblical eschatology to the best of my ability when a friend of mine became an Orthodox catechumen and mentioned theosis to me. It was precisely what God had shown me in my own study, but also so much more. I did not become a catechumen with my friend at that time, because I had a few hang-ups about certain other things. Still, over the years, Orthodoxy has kept springing up, unbidden by me, into my mind. It becomes ever more attractive to me the more I study and look into it. The former hang-ups that bothered me so much no longer do, and I now see that much of the theological disputes that currently plague Protestantism have already been settled by the fathers so long ago... at least, they have been settled for anyone who is willing (and who has the all-too-necessary humility) to seek the answers out. I continue to study and, Lord willing, will be able to find and attend a good Orthodox community sooner rather than later.

[@feralandroid]

Thank you for this video. I was an evangelical for 6 years, but I always had problems with penal substitution. I never knew there was an alternative. I have been atheist/agnostic for about 20 years now because I felt my morality was superior to that of the Christian God. I discovered the Orthodox ideas of atonement last month and it changed my heart (no other way for me to describe it). I am still on my journey, but I am trying to learn as much about the True Church's teaches compared to the evangelical teaches. Thank you for your work and God Bless.

[@Conifer-sc6jg]

Hello there. It delights me to hear of your change of heart, friend :) How has your research gone? Have you become part of an Orthodox Church yet? Orthodoxy is not merely a logical affair, but a heart issue. It is real entry into the life of Christ our God through His Body. As the parable of the sower says, the initial good soil flourishes into the fruits of the Spirit.

[@feralandroid]

@@Conifer-sc6jg Thank you for your concern. Yes, I have been going to a local Antiochian Parish. It is a gift from God. I hope to become a catechumen soon, at my priests discretion. God continues to enlighten my mind and open my heart to him. Blessings!

[@Conifer-sc6jg]

@@feralandroid Blessings to you as well! That is great to hear.

[@akimoetam1282]

John MacArthur has left the chat room

[@overthinker117]

...Todd Friel has left the chat room.

[@СаваСтанковић-с7к]

Kenneth Copeland has enetered the chat and started typing in tongues.

[@eldermillennial8330]

Сава Станковић 👅 👅 👅 👅 👅

[@George-ur8ow]

John "All they did was chant in the Orthodox Church I visited! No tracts or bookstore!?" MacArthur

[@George-ur8ow]

@@СаваСтанковић-с7к Benny Hinn has entered the chat and expelled Copeland by force through the use of star-wars like force powers

[@chrisvanallsburg]

I grew up Lutheran, then came to know the Lord in a real way and was evangelical & Reformed for many years. I finally had a crisis of faith regarding the love of God vs. the angry God (justice model). I said, "God is love, and God is good. That's all I know." That was 8 years ago. I'm finally coming around to Orthodox teaching, but it is a hard path for me. It's hard to absolve oneself of penal substitution after decades of reading the Bible that way and dealing with God in this way.

[@NatureMichael]

Thank you Bojan! I was raised with the concept of penal substitution and didn’t even know that there were other viewpoints on the matter. This explanation is so profound and great that it brought a smile to my face. I was born into a Muslim family in Turkey who converted to Protestant Christianity at a you age, and I know many Muslims who reject Christianity solely on the grounds of Penal substitution, but this explanation explains everything wonderfully! I will look more into Orthodoxy!

[@johnbreitmeier3268]

Marco this is a complete lie. I beg you to really study the theosis lie this bastard is selling. Google it. Read the Wikipedia article. It is a fairly good explanation and fairly neutral. It is pure evil. You asked me top watch this and I did. Now do what I asked. Theosis is the devil's old lie - "Be still and know that you are a god." Rather than what God said which was "Be still and know that I , Yahweh, am God." You might do well to read Paul's letter to the Galatians. I am NOT asking you to believe me. I am asking you to read scripture, read the definitions and use your brain.

[@NatureMichael]

@@johnbreitmeier3268 John you bring up a fair point. When I was first becoming orthodox two years ago, I was concerned Theosis was like the Mormon teaching that we become Gods. That cannot be further from the truth. I see you took away one quote out of context from the Wikipedia article, so let me quote the rest: “What would otherwise seem absurd-that fallen, sinful man may become holy as God is holy-has been made possible through Jesus Christ, who is God incarnate. Naturally, the crucial Christian assertion, that God is One, sets an absolute limit on the meaning of theosis: even as it is not possible for any created being to become God ontologically, or even a necessary part of God (of the three existences of God called hypostases), so a created being cannot become Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit nor the Father of the Trinity.[5] Most specifically creatures, i.e. created beings, cannot become God in his transcendent essence, or ousia, hyper-being (see apophaticism). Such a concept would be the henosis, or absorption and fusion into God of Greek pagan philosophy. However, every being and reality itself is considered as composed of the immanent energy, or energeia, of God. As energy is the actuality of God, i.e. his immanence, from God's being, it is also the energeia or activity of God. Thus the doctrine avoids pantheism.” I had to talk to priests about this particular topic, because it seemed so weird at first. But it is simply the process “bearing nothing earthly in ourselves” so that we may achieve a higher holiness of our souls. In fact that quote you pulled from St. Athanasius was the first thing my priests asked me about, because it’s the quote most Protestants use to call the teaching pagan. But it’s not at all encompassing of the idea. Theosis is really not as outlandish as you think. I would ask you to trust me but it would be better if you just spoke to an actual orthodox priest about it and decided for yourself

[@NatureMichael]

@@johnbreitmeier3268 here let me ask you some simple questions: I’m sure you believe that Adam and Eve’s original sin separated us from God, right? I’m sure you believe that Jesus was killed because of our sin, right? I’m sure you believe that Jesus’ resurrection means that He conquered death, right? I’m sure you believe that in conquering death, Jesus has made it so that all who believe in Him can now have eternal life in Heaven, right? I’m sure you believe that Jesus is the new Adam, by His incarnation, death, and resurrection was necessary for the salvation of us sinners, right? Well that’s exactly what the Orthodox Church teaches! Instead of saying He was simply punished instead of us, which is way too simplistic and not all-encompassing, we emphasize that Jesus instead conquered the grace rather than being punished in our stead. For sure He endured the worst punishment, but Jesus conquered death!

[@johnbreitmeier3268]

@@NatureMichael Marco, It seems weird because it is weird and heresy and blasphemy. The fact that the purveyors of an evil gnostic cult say their doctrine is sound is zero proof that it is sound. I watched the video you asked me to and the monkey that performed it is a blasphemous idiot who has drunk the Kool-Aid and makes no sense at all. . Here is the really important paragraph in that Wiki article: "According to Metropolitan Hierotheos (Vlachos), the primacy of theosis in Eastern Orthodox Christian theology is directly related to the fact that Byzantine theology (as historically conceived by its principal exponents) is based to a greater extent than Latin Catholic theology on the direct spiritual insights of the saints or mystics of the church rather than the often more seen as rational thought tradition of the West.[2] Byzantine Christians consider that "no one who does not follow the path of union with God can be a theologian"[3] in the proper sense. Thus theology in Byzantine Christianity is not treated primarily as an academic pursuit. Instead it is based on applied revelation (see gnosiology), and the primary validation of a theologian is understood to be a holy and ascetical life rather than intellectual training or academic credentials (see scholasticism).[2]" This is evil mysticism, the vain imaginings of very evil men who have perverted and directly opposed the scriptures. That is what " is based to a greater extent than Latin Catholic theology on the direct spiritual insights of the saints or mystics of the church rather than the often more seen as rational thought tradition of the West." means. Their false prophets just make things up and refuse to be limited by reading actual scripture. They are just radical Pentecostals claiming new revelations, exactly like the Mormons, the Moslems, and Jim Jones. Dude, theosis is gnostic elitism in the extreme. The average Orthodox person will NEVER come close to achieving theosis as described. They cannot afford to sit out the world chanting a mantra (the Jesus prayer) just like a Buddhist monk trying for Nirvana. Marcos, the gospel was always meant to be simple. 1 Corinthians 1:26, “For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.” It is impossible to oversimplify it. It was for simple people, not effete dilatants. This is exactly the kind of works salvation that Paul wrote to the Galatians calling them fools for falling for it like you have. Did you never read tyhis letter? You cannot earn your salvation, or "union with God" through meditation and self denial. This is evil in the extreme. Yes, you will some day become "like God" in a way IF you remain reliant on faith rather than works of some idioy from the 1300s new Torah rituals. (yes, I looked. Theosis is pretty new . Greg Palamas invented it about 1300 AD. It is not old at all.) John the apostle was old (in his 90s) however when he wrote this: "2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2 If John whose best friend was Jesus could no achieve theosis when he was 90, why do you think you can?? Do you really believe anyone has? We CANNOT make ourselves godlike by meditation, prayer, self-denial or anything else in this world. Trying to do so makes grace vain for you or at least that is what Paul said but maybe you think Greg of Palamas and your false priests knew better than Paul and John. Gal 4 "9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain." and Gal 5 " Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." Marco, this is why they need to make this complicated, to confuse you. This is why they need to separate you from the scriptures and rational thought as they admit is their goal. If you actually read the Bible and use the mind God gave you, their lies are exposed for the evil garbage they are. How did a Protestant who was clean escaped from error fall for this cultish garbage and give up your salvation? You are going to Hell for this according to Paul as I just cited from Galatians. I hope you repent, if that is even possible.

[@johnbreitmeier3268]

@@NatureMichael Marco, none of that is what the Orthodox church teaches according to the doctrine of theosis you just pointed out. Adding to the gospel is anathema and this is the poster child for that. IF the OC's understanding of Christus Victor was the same as Penal substitution they would not be calling Penal substitution heresy which they clearly do. It is completely different. By the way Christus Victor was developed in Sweden in the 1930s not in the first century anywhere. Nothing the monks told you is true. Quit listening to lying priests and monks who are stealing body your salvation and your money and Google a few things and read your Bible. Best wishes, but you have trown your salvation away with both hands for a Monkey fairy tale.

[@Skipsul]

2 years on, and this video continues to be a handy reference for me to share with catchumens.

[@BibleIllustrated]

So glad to hear this!

[@merrickdodge9760]

I am a Protestant on the fence about converting to Orthodoxy. I must say, I have never seen any issues with Penal Substitution until this video. Thank you for making this video and showing the inconsistencies with this belief. I do have one unanswered question I can think of at the moment: if penal substitution is not quite correct, can someone explain to me why St. Paul uses heavy judicial language in the Letter to the Romans? And why the Revelation to St. John has several references to God's wrath? (Genuine question, by the way. I am not trying to be rhetorical)

[@johnbreitmeier3268]

Merrick, I suggest that you look up the meaning of theosis which is mentioned here. This is what this false teacher is using to oppose penal subtitution and it is simply blasphemy. It was invented by Gregory Plamas around 1300 Ad so long after Jesus lived and this liar claims. It says like Mormons do that you can become a god throug hard works and mindless meditation. It also says that the Bible can only be understood by those that have attained this god-like state through years of reciting a mantra like Buddhists do. Is This what you really want? Do you really want to throw away your salvation for a prayer rope and lies from a silly monk? Please reread Paul's letter to the Galatians. Paul says don't be a fool.

[@karlanderson595]

To dig deeper and explain, I would watch the Gospel of the Chairs here on KZbin. The Orthodox one filmed in a church with Steve Robinson

[@jonathanreeve7823]

Your humility is so refreshing. God bless your journey home to Orthodoxy. I reached the same crossroads 5 years ago and have been blessed beyond measure in His ancient church. This is one of many great videos thank you

[@Gummy195]

This is a question I also have. I genuinely want somebody to break it down because I’m getting a little exhausted with hunting for the answer myself. Where I am, Orthodoxy is not really accessible, and when I pick up my Bible I can’t help but see the exceedingly judicial language as well

[@BackToOrthodoxy]

I have been looking into it and PSA is the gospel. St John Chrysostom affirmed it. You should too. “God allowed his Son to suffer as if a condemned sinner, so that we might be delivered from the penalty of our sins. This is God’s righteousness, that we are not justified by works (for then they would have to be perfect, which is impossible), but by grace, in which case all our sin is removed.” (John Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistles of Paul to the Corinthians, 11:5; NPNF 1 12:334; ACCS NT 7:252; cited from Thomas Oden, The Justification Reader, 61.)

[@josephjude1290]

Happy birthday. May God grant you many years.

[@kalias7129]

"accept me so I'd save you from myself" and "you're lucky the Holy Spirit isn't here" man, Bojan, you made my day =)))))

[@koffeeblack5717]

Utter truth, and concisely put! Penal substitution is the result of taking socioculturally conditioned uses of the word "justice" (and ultimately un-christian and more akin to Hammurabi's utilitarian "code")and turning them into metaphor for understanding the most high supreme metaphysical nature of reality. How this isn't more widely recognized as a bad move is beyond me, but such is the fallen condition. Sin is much more like a plant learning to walk and uprooting itself, thus severing its connection to the earth.

[@szofiankomnenosz1464]

1 baptist disliked

[@BibleIllustrated]

I have a dedicated disliker! Whenever I upload someone always instantly dislikes! The bell notification button is working :-)

[@andrejrmusic]

@@BibleIllustrated the dislike is gone

[@swazilandandbotswana8856]

Andrej Rusjakov was it you?

[@BibleIllustrated]

Must've been a missclick

[@andrejrmusic]

@@swazilandandbotswana8856 no, no I just noticed it

[@augustus.2013]

I’ve found it very interesting that despite growing up within Protestantism, my father who was and is still my spiritual mentor, always talked about the Gospel message similarly to the way you describe the Orthodox view on the salvation process. My old Protestant church used to always talk about salvation like PSA, but my father always talked to me about it in the Thesois-ish kind of way. So when I discovered Orthodoxy (I’m currently exploring Orthodoxy atm), the view wasn’t as surprising to me as it could have been.

[@TinaICXCNIKA]

My head is spinning, wow! I'm going to have to watch this several more times. Thank you for putting in such an impressive amount of work, Bojan.

[@johnbreitmeier3268]

Tina, all of this is a lie and blasphemy. Reaf the Wiki article on theosis and reread Paul's letter to the Galatians. This is evil.

[@Erthradar]

Wonderful video, the image at 13:02 is so tender and loving. "You're lucky the Holy Spirit isn't here" 10/10

[@alexsalentine739]

Awesome video as always Bojan, Happy birthday Bible Illustrated! And happy feast of St. Monica (Important Catholic Saint)

[@BibleIllustrated]

Many thanks! I love St. Monica!

[@thedreadtyger]

As St Ambrosius said to her: "The tears of such a mother...". St Monica's tears point to the tears of the Theotokos at the foot of the Cross, tears which Christ Himself has offered to us and for us when He says: Son, behold thy mother.

[@christophersnedeker]

George MacDonald, a major influence on CS Lewis and GK Chesterton, said God's justice and his mercy are two sides of the same coin of his love. His sermon on the justice of God begins with a quote from the psalms "to thee oh lord belongth mercy, for thou renderest to every man according to his work" God's mercy is just and his justice is merciful.

[@mikesfaces733]

Salvation is a process (Phil. 2:12). We have been saved from the penalty of sin (2 Cor. 5:21), we are being saved from the power of sin (2 Pet. 1:4), we will be saved from the presence of sin (Heb. 12:1-3).

[@jaytea4390]

Thank you so much for this video! I always found penal substitution to be a very unhealthy doctrine and I feel that the emphasis placed on it in some Evangelical congregations definitely contributes to members losing their faith or suffering as a result of it. I'm an Anglican, but I believe in theosis - it just makes the most sense to me and I find it a very beautiful teaching. Thank you Bojan for teaching us about Orthodox theology!

[@BibleIllustrated]

Glad you liked it Jay! :)

[@thefluffykirbyprincess6307]

First, thank you for making this video, because that does answer my question on why the Orthodox view penal substitution the way they do. But now I have so many more questions about Orthodoxy. XD It's so different in the Eastern Church every time I learn something new there's like ten more questions that come from learning that. May the Lord continue to bless your work. And congratulations of three years!

[@JustinianG]

I converted to orthodoxy because i hated the western views on atonement. U can try asking me ur questions

[@theosouris7063]

12:39 Ah yes, the greatest sins of our time: being a somewhat confused Italian-American businessman from New Jersey, wearing a suit and tie with a combover, looking to the left while smirking slightly, and being Japanese. (But seriously, great video. I find it to be a great teaching tool.)

[@mloveless2]

Happy birthday!! GREAT VIDEO AS ALWAYS!!!

[@BibleIllustrated]

Thank you so much 😀 Say hi to A. from me!

[@liam-ek2vq]

Explaining God with a Futurama reference has made my day

[@Sewblon]

I have only ever been a part of the Protestant church. What you said makes sense. Letting your child take the rap for someone else isn't just or merciful. So penal substitution fails on every level.

[@spilkafurtseva1918]

Boyen, this is a beautiful channel. I only discovered you a few weeks ago and your explanation as to why Christ had to come to earth - and the hypostatic union - made more immediate, visceral sense to me than any explanation I’ve heard in my 29 years as a Roman Catholic. Thankyou and God bless you!

[@Hap674]

Excellent summary of God, his love and his justice. ✝️✝️✝️

[@rin_etoware_2989]

i'd like to think that penal substitution is how the Devil thought of God's mercy, and that Jesus came to the world to break that algorithm

[@RomanusVII]

Penal Substitution worked for a long time for me. Made God seem infinitely selfless for our sake (which He is), and I suppose that works for people. But I think my opinion has changed on it.

[@nickkraw1]

With maximum respect, for I love this channel, as a Catholic I must inform you and others watching that Theosis is not absent from Western Christianity, the Protestants just ditched it. The Catholic Church teaches the same concept, often referred to in the West as Divinization. The Catechism of the Catholic Church 460 states: “The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81” St Thomas Aquinas says that God deifies us. St Catherine of Sienna, a Catholic mystic, records God as saying to her thus: "They are like the burning coal that no one can put out once it is completely consumed in the furnace, because it has itself been turned into fire. So it is with these souls cast into the furnace of my charity, who keep nothing at all, not a bit of their own will, outside of me but are completely set afire in me. There is no one who can seize them or drag them out of my grace. They have been made one with me and I with them." We believe, as this video stated, that we achieve a genuine oneness with God in the marriage of the Lamb, for that after all is what marriage is meant to achieve, even amongst earthly couples who validly sacramentally marry, they cease to be two but become one flesh, as Jesus, Genesis, and St Paul in Ephesians 5 all day. And like any other married couple, while becoming totally one, we retain our individual personhood and personalities, so it’s not some weird Eastern melting pot concept. It is the power of the true Love which is God: perfect union, as is consistent with God’s Trinitarian Nature to begin with. St Athanasius and St John Chrysostom are of course major parts of the Catholic tradition too! So their teachings are very important to Catholic Doctrine as well. Now Thesosis/Divinization is not enough to explain the glory of all God’s wondrous works in Jesus’ Incarnation and Passion, Catholic Theology has more to offer in that regard, but what I wanted to state what that the concept of Theosis is not unique to Eastern Orthodoxy and also professed by the Latin and Eastern Catholic Churches. That is all. Thank you so much and God bless you Bojan, this was a wonderful video and you are very talented and filled with grace. May the Theotokos and all the saints perpetually intercede for and protect and care for you!

[@theartofwar551]

An excellent video. My brother in law came from a part of the states that's heavily influenced by the so called theology and rhetoric of penal substitution. The atmosphere was very bad, and he's since made it a point to find a Church and people filled with God's love. Videos like this, I think, he would greatly appreciate. Thank you again. Do try to get some sleep. Edit: It's been ages since you brought it up, but any chance you'll do your review for Silence soon?

[@BibleIllustrated]

Yes, it will be one of the sooner-ish Pencils and Prayer Ropes videos.

[@toddbonin6926]

Bojan, my sibling in Christ, I still have to meditate on this to comprehend it all. But this may be the most impactful video I’ve ever seen. Thank you.

[@davidschutt7491]

One of your best videos. I couldn't agree more. Fantastic job, Bojan.

[@eliegbert8121]

10:45 if God is unjust, what ever defines justice?!?! Whatever is the ultimate and final decision on morality must be the highest power

[@BibleIllustrated]

Because we are made in the image of God, we have an intuitive understanding of justice, therefore when such justice does not align with Who God is, it means that there is something off with it.

[@StukaSteven]

You're videos are always so clean and well drawn, thank you and God bless you

[@Siamesemama1]

Happy Birthday Bojan. This video has sent me scrambling to Scripture & beyond. Way beyond.😺 God Bless you & your art for many more years.

[@St_Bartys_Acolyte]

Happy Birthday! Fantastic video! I was already rejecting western views of the atonement before I started looking to Orthodoxy, but you do a great job breaking down the main view and showing how it's flawed. This is the major view I've seen in Protestant circles - at least the ones who actually hold to any type of theology. Most are lost in shallow and false teachings. They need our prayer!

[@jamestown8398]

The Futurama reference really made me laugh!

[@Maine-Life]

I need to watch this a few more times....it's a big download of information.

[@jivaldez9863]

I have been waiting for this forever:3.

[@playdoughmaster808]

I know one Protestant man (who is generally very wise) who says that Jesus was separated from God. This view was very weird to me, (despite having grown up Protestant) considering Jesus is not only man, but God. This is what made me realize that this view wasn’t very sound, and I hadn’t realized it before. I was already inquiring into higher forms of Christianity at the time, but it certainly strengthened my desire to find the truth

[@joylarson9040]

God is love!

[@alecfoster448]

This is an amazing summary! Thank you for your work.

[@smallmorfis]

What is the difference between Christ dying instead of us and Christ dying for us exaclty?

[@timothyjstrong]

I could donate my heart to save my child who's heart is failing. That would be different than taking the death penalty for someone else who committed a crime

[@loverlei79]

Because he didn't actually take our place. We still die. Clearly. Our bodies die. So something else must be going on here. Christ died for us to give us a clear path to ressurrection. Think of it more like Christ paving a road to heaven so you can truly know God as Love, vs God demanding blood sacrifice from His Son so that you can pay lip service for "believing". Christ lived love and embodied it throughout the entire gospels. Not one time did he ever mention how Angry God was and how everyone needed to appease him by death or flogging themselves. He forgave everyone who came to Him and asked. He even refused to condemn the women caught in adultry. A crime punishable by instant stoning. That's not the life of a Son of an angry God seeking retribution by the death penalty. That's the life of the Son of a Loving God willing to die for us. And he did, then he emptied hades, came back in 3 days and continued teaching his disciples before finally leaving and sending the Holy Spirit so we can be converted and continue our journey toward God.

[@KE4VVF]

Happy Birthday!! Thank you for explaining the beliefs of Orthodoxy.

[@hannahs1683]

Very edifying and educational, thank you

[@nickkraw1]

Theosis isn’t absent in the West. It is often called called Divinization and St Pope John Paul the Great talks about Theosis by name. It was underemphasized during medieval times a bit is all, but it never went away.

[@derekward3512]

they introduced it again in the catholic church bc of vatican ii and an overall decrease in anti ecumenism which led to popes talking about eastern concepts, but the west always was less spiritual and theosis based than the east

[@christophersalinas2722]

@@derekward3512Lol

[@karenmaawad7739]

Wonderful video Bojan! I was waiting for that like forever and actually salvation was always a preplexing topic for me when I thought about in terms of penal substitution. I reject it of course or at the very least think its importance is so much overblown in explaining salvation. But one might ask when you said that Christ could have died of old age, what do we do with the focus on the sacrificial system in the OT and with passages like this: "Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins" (Heb. 9:22) I hope to get your thoughts on that and similar passages, thanks for your great work anyway!

[@feruzusmanov7729]

I wonder if blood sacrifice and penal substitution are not the same thing. I mean, in the Old Testament the temple priests would slaughter animals so that the blood would cover the sins of the people. But I don't think it says that God turned his wrath on those slain lambs and pigeons. It's like imagining God being filled with wrath at sinners and just having no option but release that wrath, and the priest goes - "Here, shoot it at this lamb instead. Release that anger at this target.". I could be wrong though. I'm kind of in the middle of what Boyan describes here and the idea of penal substitution. I feel that both ideas are necessary. To me, penal substitution is there, but it is so overemphasized by many Protestant that it creates a notion that it is the only thing that happened on the cross and the only reason God became human.

[@Panagia120]

Happy Birthday Bible illustrated! Awesome video!

[@eveunknown8785]

Brillianltly explained . Bless you

[@peteryoungii9897]

I love the image with St. Gregory Palamas.

[@BibleIllustrated]

Full size here: www.bibleillustratedproject.com/2019/02/Pr12.html?m=1

[@MrProgrock]

It's finally here! Great work as always Bojan! Oh, and happy 3rd birthday!

[@Ricoliets]

7:55 I can't seem to find where it is said in scripture that the Lord redeemed the souls that perished in the Flood. Can anyone lead me to it?

[@theholyinquisition389]

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger wrote a very similar explanation to yours in his Introduction to Christianity. A good read, although I find it very hard to understand properly at times.

[@georgealderson4424]

Very deep sir (for a simple soul like me anyway!) It sounds like you are talking about so called "tough love." I am always unsure how far we should enquire into the motives and actions of Almighty God as in my humble opinion it is not our place to look too deeply into His creation (thinking of Job's story) and we all have varying degrees of intellect and ability of understanding and sharing of our thoughts ie you are the ACME of Theology whereas I am the irritating ACNE who may disappear eventually and stop annoying people! I am so grateful to you for your work sir. Please add me to the bottom of your list of intercessions. Blessings and peace (via UK) from our Lord.

[@karenbartlett1307]

Very beautiful, thanks, Bojan!

[@yaakov5877]

The problem that I've found is that the proponents of such an interpretation tend to understand that Christ is the lamb of God, but they have an oversimplified view of how sacrifices in the Old Testament worked. The sacrifices weren't as simple as "You've sinned and now to satisfy God's desire for justice you must spill the blood of an animal." The meaning goes deeper than that. In a similar way the sacrifice of Christ is deeper than that.

[@eliegbert8121]

I have been debating between subscribing to the orthodox and catholic choice. Currently I am leaning heavily towards the former as they seem, while not perfect, much more concerned with scripture, life in godliness, and proper morals. Whereas the latter seem to be obsessed with themselves, their own institution, and their own doctrines and practices which have no basis in scripture

[@MaryHernandez-lq8kq]

Yay! Happy Birthday 🎂

[@BibleIllustrated]

Thank you Mary! :D

[@llluminatixx7]

I pray you get more subscribers. You deserve it.

[@daric_]

You don't have to deny that man is united to the divine nature in glory while accepting PSA. PSA doesn't mean "this is all the gospel is, you can't accept anything else or talk about anything else." Many times it's put in a false either/or dilemma.

[@daithimcbuan5235]

It's a bit like the difference between inheriting Original Sin vs. inheriting a sinful nature. Also justification vs. Sanctification. The simplification of childhood catachesis often hinders more than it helps (and is why many turn to atheism with only a 2-dimensional, dumbed-down understanding of God).

[@rubenalias7250]

I love your videos man, God bless

[@BibleIllustrated]

Glad you like them!

[@grumpycrumbles7360]

Nice futurama reference

[@squirrelknight4878]

happy birthday to this channel. 🎂 🎂 🎂

[@wollyram6248]

Happy birthday Bible illustrated 👌

[@elizabethshaw734]

Congratulations and happy birthday! 🙏🎉🎊🙏

[@naiman4535]

Foarte Bine, Bogdan! Bravo! To me, the simplest way of showing the absurdity of the doctrine of Penal Substitution is that it puts two of the three persons of the Holy Trinity - God the Father and God the Son - in direct opposition to each other: God the Father wanted to shoot me straight to hell, but God the Son took the bullet for me, and died in my place. A historical footnote would be in order here: The theory of Penal Substitution was first put forth by Anselm of Canterbury, who lived in eleventh century England, in his treatise Cur Deus Homo, or Why God Became Man. The erroneous doctrine of Penal Substitution has infected Western Christianity ever since, and its legal / transactional way of viewing salvation led to the horrendous abuses of the Roman Catholic Church in the Middle Ages, like the selling of indulgences, which led directly to the Protestant Reformation. But even Protestants did not escape from the taint of this erroneous doctrine, especially in the Calvinist sects that insist on the total depravity of man. A liberal pastor friend of mine liked to joke about how the parable of the Prodigal Son would have been if Jesus had taught the doctrine of Penal Substitution: The prodigal son returns home to his father, and the father says, "Hold on, wait a minute - I gotta go out and kill your brother before I can welcome you back!

[@yoldyield2177]

Great video, Bojan. Just a quick question, how would our sins be forgiven without Jesus dying on the cross and what is your answer to the claim that Old Testament prophets made prophecies about Jesus being abandoned by his own people and being killed?

[@alphalamda545]

Loved this video! This was fantastic

[@swazilandandbotswana8856]

I’m really glad you uploaded. I was just watching your old videos, and I’m thinking about joining the Eastern Orthodox Church. Also does the oriental Orthodox Church believe in any heresies ?

[@BibleIllustrated]

Yes, as we disagree on the natures of Christ. It is a rather complicated issue. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Chalcedon

[@swazilandandbotswana8856]

Bible Illustrated ok thanks.

[@1stlast290]

Bible Illustrated My understanding of the oriental Church was that they were basically using the term “nature” to mean “person”. So it’s the same teaching as the EO churches where it’s both a human nature and a divine nature in one person Christ Jesus Son of God. Overall Just a language/semantics/political problem....If I understand this situation correctly. Please correct me if you feel I’m understating this. Thanks for your videos - much appreciated! Keep up the great work. Oh, and I grew up holding singularly to the Penal View, but it never seemed quite right to me, like something was missing. Since discovering the EOC, I feel I discovered, doctrinally, what I suspected to be true all along, although it had never been explicitly taught to me. God bless you.

[@tuck-brainwks-eutent-hidva1098]

Eastern and Oriental churches aren't in communion (fully, anyway), although my (Eastern, Antiochian) priest (as well as several others I have spoken with) thinks that the remaining differences seem to be largely semantic, as well. When I asked him about using the Coptic Agpeya as part of personal practice of praying the hours, he thought it was fine.

[@Nicky_Yogi]

Man I disagree a little bit. The Bible says that there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood and also stuff about Christ’s blood cleansing us of our sins. I do agree though that people shouldn’t just stop there. To me the forgiveness bought with Christ’s blood on the cross is like opening the door for sinners to begin walking toward Christ’s light but if they just stay there at the threshold then they really aren’t experiencing the transformation that I think He has in mind for us. I really look forward to your future videos. I want to learn more about your perspective on these things.

[@lornadoone8887]

Those Scriptures are misinterpreted in PSA. A good reference for looking at this from all the Scriptural angles is the book, Atonement, Justice, and Peace by Darrin W Snyder Belousek pub. by Eerdmans. These exact hermeneutical issues are dealt with in Part II of that work. I highly recommend it.

[@arieljr.caldit5608]

Beautifully said! ❤️

[@anthy3062]

2.19 about the Trinity is like a brick. You caught me! :)

[@BibleIllustrated]

Hah glad!

[@observantowl1726]

Happy birthday from the Netherlands!

[@applebottomjeans333]

My catholic school talked a lot about divinization, which sounds quite similar to theosis? So maybe it’s not totally absent in the west, but just slightly different? Though ofc here in the states at least, definitely most of our Christian culture has been influenced by penal substitution but I think that’s more due to the fact that most people are Protestant

[@СаваСтанковић-с7к]

Divinization is part of the Catholic tradition, it means sanctification. The problem with the Catholic view is the view of God as having Absolute Divine Simplicity, which holds that God's actions are by His essence, therefore we cannot experience God on Earth, only in Heaven, which is called the Beatific Vision. The Grace we receive on earth is created Grace. In the East we distinguish God's essence and his energies (actions) so we don't believe one has to experience the Essence, but His uncreated Grace.

[@ChristopherSummer89]

@@СаваСтанковић-с7к This Thing about "created Grace" (which sounds odd to my Catholic Ear anyway) seems to be a common Orthodox Misunderstanding -- I have recently read a Blog Post which explained both the Orthodox and the Thomistic Positions, let me quote a few Sentences from its Thomistic Explanation: "[...] grace is not a thing that exists between the creature and the creator. [...] One truly participates in God, not in a created substance, when one receives grace. [...] we receive the undivided and infinite God in a finite mode, as is fitting for a creature who is finite and created. In other words, what we receive is not what is created; rather, what we become by receiving the uncreated is what we call created. This is what we call created grace, namely, that which we become when we receive the uncreated." (Michael Lofton (2020): "Does Catholicism Lead to Atheism: A Dialogue Between a Palamite and a Thomist" on reasonandtheology.com) I highly recommend that Blog Post -- it's not perfect, but very informative.

[@thejulesfather]

Great work

[@davidcope5736]

The catholic belief in sanctification is roughly equivalent to theosis, however the protestant concept of penal substitution has such a stronghold culturally, especially in the English speaking world, that many Catholics are unaware that penal substitution isn't actually a catholic teaching. The satisfaction theory of atonement is the catholic theory from which penal substitution sprung, but rather than positing that Christ was punished in our place, it posits that the obedience of Christ on the cross was such a glorious offering to the father that humanity's disobedience to God is passed over. I dont think that the satisfaction theory is a concrete explanation of salvation, but i do think it is a rather beautiful image of christ's sacrifice, one that connects deeply with biblical ideas of sacrifice and gives depth to the catholic devotional focus on the cross.

[@rin_etoware_2989]

let me also just mention where the "God only does messy stuff to prevent further messiness" idea becomes a bit of an uncomfortable stretch: when God takes the life of David's first son to Bathsheba in 2 Samuel 12. He says it's because the child "hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme," but then he spares the rest of David's other children with Bathsheba. as far as i see it, God wanted some form of restitution for Uriah's death-and God chose a child to pay that toll, too.

[@JoshAlicea1229]

I liken Christ to soap. Soap cannot be contaminated, rather it cleanses whatever is dirty. We are, using the OT word "unclean" because we do not go to Christ, whose arms are wide open to receive us, not because He casts us out or has closed the door on us. God bless you!

[@bonnie_gail]

THANK YOU

[@CSLFiero]

I think sola fida hinges on penal substitution, as Christ becomes rapidly unnecessary for our salvation without it. I'm not here to dispel Paul or the salvation of the crucified thief, but one has to ask, if faith alone is the key to salvation, what value is Christ's mortal life and doings?

[@gamer-oo1xl]

This is great, i have one question though. Why does David mean when he says wrath of God in psalms? Thank you

[@mrscream2028]

Amazing video

[@George-ur8ow]

There is the occasional Protestant theologian who questions Western theories of atonement: "Penal substitution is the theology of a 5 year old" - RC Sproul Love the St. John Chrysostom quote about 2/3 through the video. Lord have mercy on us all.

[@bareit98]

Happy Birthday!!!

[@verabrown3736]

Thank you...very nice and helpful

[@orthodoxchristian50]

Excellent video!

[@chellenge6490]

Happy Birthday! :D

[@Weex1k]

As a protestant I wholeheartedly agree. The PSA is wrong and the Eastern Orthodox view on sin and salvation is much more logical and consistent with the Bible.

[@djondjon]

A belated Happy Birthday!

[@kolash74]

12:32 Why did you put Mulan amidst the modern archetypes of fallen souls?

[@BibleIllustrated]

What makes you think that's Mulan? :-)

[@JasonPinkham]

Happy birthday!

[@BibleIllustrated]

Thank you! :-)

[@El_Estudio]

Penal substitution was also promoted during a time in which common people went to prison for short periods of time either to await trial or execution - most crimes were dealt with bia execution during the Middle Ages - just prior to modernism in western Europe. Thus, penal substitution made experiential sense to many.

[@Im_No_Expert_72]

Very good ! ☦️👑🏅 Thank you

[@joylarson9040]

Thank you so much🙂

[@BibleIllustrated]

You're welcome! 😊

[@kaybrown4010]

I agree: Penal Substitution is heresy. There! That makes it so. 😉 Happy Birthday, Bible Illustrated. Many years! ♥️☦️

[@АнгелМитков-г5ь]

No, it's not heresy. But it's perverted by the protestants, and it's not the best way to explain the dogma of Atonement.