Writing in 2nd Person | The Forgotten POV

[@TheCedarFresh]

My favourite type of second person literature are passive agressive tweets starting with "Y'all"

[@axe-tq2wn]

You wake up in a dark room. You feel that someone is observing you. Oh no.

[@humourlessjester3584]

Through this video I just realized that one of the creative non fiction essays that I'm writing is perfect to be rewritten in the second person. I'm writing it more to console myself of certain things that had happened in the past so having it be framed as a present self talking to a past self helps me a lot because now the form is in line with the intentions that I had with the piece. Thank you!

[@ShaelinWrites]

2nd person can be such a unique choice in CNF!!

[@ShaelinWrites]

Hi everyone! I've linked the examples used in this video in the description, but thought I'd leave a comment with a longer 2nd person reading list for those interested. Please feel free to mention your favourite stories/books written in any form of 2nd person on this thread! -The Fifth Season by N.K Jemisin -Self Help by Lorrie Moore -How to Get Filthy Rich in Rising Asia by Mohsin Hamid -Vanishing Monuments by John Elizabeth Stintzi -You are eating an orange. You are naked. by Sheung-King (1st person referral) -Fever Dream by Samata Schweblin (kind of - very unique use of a direct address) -In The Dream House by Carmen Maria Machado -After Dark by Haruki Murakami

[@jackhaggerty1066]

When leaving a comment on Shaelin's blog, first talk like a writer. Even when you know this is not true. You are eating a pear and sipping a glass of Tokay wine. You are fully clothed. The pear is a Duchesse d'Angouleme and you are peeling it with a tiny silver knife with a bone handle that you purchased in Toledo many years ago. You are making all this up but it might fool Shaelin and her readers who are real writers who write real words in their real days. You are just a bargain basement Hemingway and soon Shaelin will erase your comments. What would she think if you said you had never read Murakami or had had never heard of Sheung-King or Carmen Maria Machado? What would she think if you told her you had never been to Toledo and that Tokay costing £22 a half bottle is a little pricey and you just made up the story about the pear? I will never tell you this. Or should that be: You Will Never Tell You This. You pour a beer and switch on the radio. Diana Ross is singing Do You Know Where You're Going To? Mahogany. The movie. 1975. You were exactly Shaelin's age and dumb as a mule. You had dreams.

[@ebony.p]

Harrow the Ninth by Tamsyn Muir is REALLY good!

[@TacoSlayer36]

A Story About You from Welcome to Nightvale

[@ruekkart]

Aura by Carlos Fuentes (originally in Spanish)

[@SlagSnaps]

“Forever Overhead” by David Foster Wallace “How to Be a Writer” by Lorrie Moore Both are written in the second person.

[@Anna-B]

Second person is very unique. I’ve only read it in choose your own adventure type things

[@personnoun7086]

For me, the first scenario that came to mind to use 2nd person would be of a loved one telling a story of a shared memory to another with Alzheimer's or dementia. Gently reminding them of their role in the other person's life. +1 points if it's a love story.

[@AmongstTheSoil]

I love, love, LOVE Harrow the Ninth. Excellent video!

[@JDris08]

As a songwriter and poet, I use 2nd person the most. I never made the correlation to my literary work. I’m knee deep in my first short story collection and just wrote my first 2nd person fiction ever as a flash piece. It was a lot of fun to write and now making this connection to the skill of handling this POV in a different context makes me excited on what else I can do with it.

[@rudolphpyatt4833]

Jay McInerny’s “Bright Lights, Big City” is a brilliant novel in second person.

[@matheus10b]

Lol this video is gonna come out 4 days before the last submitting day to a short story competition I wrote in 2nd person. I hope I can get the tips in enough time (gosh i hope i do)

[@sophiaharalson6137]

Good luck on your story!

[@matheus10b]

@@sophiaharalson6137 Thanks!!

[@SDHuston]

Good luck! I'm glad this video is coming out in time for you to get some great tips! We would love to see you at the rest of the Authortube Writing Conference that happens over this weekend!

[@and111en]

shaelin has made a video ab tips on 2nd person pov before i think, u might want to see that while waiting for this one!

[@jackhaggerty1066]

I hope the story turned out well, Matt. You will get there. *The Art of the Glimpse: 100 Irish Short Stories.* How can one small poor colonised nation have produced so many great short story writers?

[@emmyelenakatzen]

this video absolutely inspired me to change the point of view of my WIP to 2nd person 😁 so tysm

[@JohnMWest-tg6go]

The second person pov is the middle child. There and relevant, but forgotten about and not talked about.

[@dires]

Starting with an example in the first minute would been very welcome. And when you come to the part, you start with POV instead!

[@jackhaggerty1066]

Edna O'Brien's *A Pagan Place* (1970) is in 2nd Person POV and sustains intensity, passion and bitter humour all the way through. A wonderful account of an Irish childhood and adolescence.

[@jackhaggerty1066]

*It's like the story is telling the story to the protagonist.* I had never thought of this before. This is what they call deep structure. Thanks.

[@SDHuston]

I am so excited to see this presentation! It will add something unique for the Authortube Writing Conference that no one else is talking about!

[@adele2312]

I have a little crush on 2nd person POV.

[@lavymaplemagic]

Ur making me want to write in 2nd person pov...damn u got me....

[@azriel9499]

I've been dying to watch this video! I'm so excited for it, I love your videos on point of view

[@m.i.a.826]

Love this underrated pov. Thanks for sharing!

[@carolinelabbott2451]

I always thought of 1st person as an unreliable friend sat next to me telling me about their day. 3rd person always felt like I as the reader was some unseen witness to events unfolding around the characters. 2nd person always felt the most intimate of perspectives. It was if I was in the main characters head witnessing all of what was happening to them and how they truly felt about themselves. I never saw it as me the reader being puppeted around by the books narration. In CYOA books it was different though, as there instead of just intimatly witnessing all that happened to the main character I was now the one in charge of puppetting this fictional body in the world of the book. Still intimate, but now I'm incharge.

[@carolinelabbott2451]

Okay, I have gotten through the video and what I consider "you" narrative that is intimate was not shown so I'm a bit baffled. The information was really good in this video but I'm left a bit more confused as to what I would consider intimated 2nd person would not be so considered so by others. Its hard to put into words what I am trying to express here. It's late and I'm tired. I'll come back later to hopefully express my self better. It really is still a good video and given me much to think about. I'm just struggling to but my thoughts in to words. My apologies.

[@jackhaggerty1066]

@@carolinelabbott2451 Just keep reading & writing and your brain will come to see it. Animal instinct is essential too. The blood. I picked up an old paperback of *Women in Love* (Alan Bates & Jennie Linden on the cover) and remembered how great Lawrence can be. Frances Wilson has a new book *Burning Man - The Ascent of DH Lawrence*. Ten years ago he was hated & reviled.

[@fluffyspunsugar]

I wrote a flash fiction piece and experimented with all three POVs, present tense. I'd never written in second person before, so I was skeptical. I have to say, I liked it for that piece, it seemed to fit better. I don't know if I'd use it on a regular basis, but I think it should be explored more by the writing community, definitely.

[@shannonhoon25]

Thanks for making this video. I am 42 and in my first semester of college. I am working on a fiction manuscript idea that is going to be in second person. I am really nervous and hoping to make it work. I am going to right about a guy who gets blackout drunk and ends up in jail. Struggling with all the details of it but am so happy to have stumbled upon your video. Thanks again.

[@habibadokubo-asari211]

You give some of the best writing advice on the internet. I started writing a story last week in third person but it didn’t feel right, then 1st person but that didn’t feel write either. Because of your earlier POV videos I decided to think about the character, their personality and motivations to try and see what pov would be best for them. I then realized that this was a story they wouldn’t tell to anyone, and figured out they’d be telling it to themselves and because of your earlier videos it just clicked in my head, “That’s 2nd person.” And not the voice of the story feels right. Thank you so much.

[@jackhaggerty1066]

James Baldwin's biographer David Leeming described sitting with the writer as he was dying. Leeming was reading Chapter 19 of Pride and Prejudice, where Mr Collins proposes to Elizabeth Bennet. Baldwin chuckled in memory of the passage and said, 'So economical, so devastating.' An example of third-person omniscient POV. Helen Moffett's novel *Charlotte* (2020) is a speculative novel of the marriage of Mr Collins and Charlotte Lucas, a lively debut novel.

[@billyalarie929]

Shaelin you're a consummate genius. thank you, as usual.

[@desertbloomke]

I've never understood 2nd person but this has given me some good understanding on it. I even thought up some examples of scenarios to use it in while you were explaining the different applications. I'll definitely be referring back to this video if i need a reminder

[@Tutorial7a]

One really common use of second person is in video games, which, depending on the genre, can practically be novels with significantly less prose and more visual storytelling--though not in the same way as visual novels or magna or comics, since they often depend more heavily on the quality of what prose there is rather than having access to carefully curated drawings. But because it is fundamentally interactive, a whole new depth of second person can be achieved. Toby Fox--and spoilers for his game Deltarune here--does this in a very interesting way. Generally, "you" will refer to the character that you are playing as. However, the premise of this story has to do with your control of the character (Kris) being diegetic, creating tension as you puppet a person against their will to do whatever you desire of them, while they try to fight against your influence in minor ways. The usage of "you" is thus turned on its head partway through the story, leading to some significant intrigue in certain scenes where there is some ambiguity as to who is contributing to which action. It's similar to some of what's described in this video, but since you as a player are actively participating, there is no semblance of "this isn't really me," as can happen in traditionally written stories.

[@ShaelinWrites]

Really cool insight, thank you for sharing!! I don't know much about video game or video came writing so this is fascinating!

[@darkengine5931]

​@@ShaelinWrites It's very common in games where we're intended to role-play (not merely request to control) a particular character. For example, in a role-playing game, we might reach into the inventory UI, select a lockpick, and then click it on a locked door. In response, instead of presenting text like, "Gareth deftly picks the lock," the writers instead might use, "You defly pick the lock," to try to reinforce the illusion in our imagination that we *are* Gareth. Yet I've always had mixed opinions about using 2nd person perspective in such games, as there's usually pressure for the narrator to be as neutral as possible to maintain the illusion that we are the characters we're controlling. Such games usually want to steer clear of describing things too personal to the character. For example, if we reach into our backpack and request to eat an apple, the narration might only be able to use a very neutral tone: "You eat the apple." It might be able to describe the apple's texture in a neutral way along with some universal qualities about its taste or smell, but it generally shouldn't try to describe how the experience of eating the apple feels specifically to your character since that'd interfere with the illusion of being our characters. Something like, "As you take a bite of the apple, you reminisce about the apple pies that your mother used to make from your family orchard," would generally be considered undesirable as the player might then think, "But I envisioned and created my character's backstory as one that never grew up next to apple orchards!" So I always found it rather limiting in what the writers could write about our characters in this role-playing context, trying to avoid putting words into our characters' mouths or thoughts into their heads, but here the goal is to try to emphasize the notion that the reader is the character they're controlling.

[@zaraa2061]

I can’t wait for this video, I hope one day I can write a book in 2nd person

[@blackmagictutorials6810]

I saw the title and found myself thinking, "who would even bother to write in second person? That's so lame." Then I remembered that I've already written 6 asmr scripts in 2nd person that have made people either livid, cry, or blankly stare at the ceiling.🤣

[@Amaiguri]

It's funny because, as a Game Writer, second person is used quite a bit so I'm a big fan. But it def is weird for literary circles. Glad to see some of these uses transfer over!

[@trinaq]

I love this video, second person POVs are difficult to pull off for an entire book, so I try to limit them to a chapter or two.

[@patrickvernon2749]

Thank you

[@belleve2understand]

Thank you! You're a great teacher.

[@MichaelJMetz]

Thank you for this clear and thorough explanation. I'm currently writing a book of seven short stories on the 7 Deadly Sins. The fifth story is on lust and told in 1st person. Story six is on slothfulness. This is the one I am looking to write second person. The story does move slow (it is on slothfulness after all) and I'm hoping that going 2nd person will get the reader more involved. I am going back and forth between 2nd person pure & 2nd person intimate. Thanks again for a great video.

[@bodyno3158]

Many RPGs utilize 2nd person pov to create the immersion. Most of them are 2nd pov filled to the brim.

[@caitlinjohnson984]

You’re So Vain by Carly Simon!

[@hereformost7774]

This cannot come soon enough. Working on my novel's prologue currently, I'm going for a bit of a "switchup" wherein the prologue ((which is in media res, taking place near chronologic end of events)) is in 2nd POV, meant to highlight the antagonist's perspective, as he... Exclusively deingrates & bemoans the protag, not even dignifying him with proper use of name. The problem I run into however is that, the further in I go, I devolve into 1st POV. Just can't seem to figure out how to implicate "character voice" or insinuate that this *isn't* an omniscient narrator, but rather, a person *exclusively using* 2nd in their *own* internal narration.

[@darkengine5931]

I tried giving The Fifth Season a try after this video, so eager to check out the 2nd person POV. However, it really doesn't seem to suit me although I still really appreciate having it on my bookshelf now (if only to better understand why it doesn't suit my tastes). I get this massive empathy disconnect for the protag, oddly enough. I believe I understand -- even at the most obscure subconscious level -- that I'm not the one being addressed by "you". After all, I'm neither Essun nor even a woman. What I think is disconnecting me so much is a psychological impression like, "This is very personal and private to her. This is not intended for me to hear or read." If I use an example, say I inadvertently caught my wife writing a sticky note to herself which reads, "You need to wake up earlier." A part of me is still concerned about her but I also feel as though this is none of my business. She's got this and doesn't want to involve my intrusion or else she would have shared this with me using first-person and telling me: "I need to wake up earlier." Then I would empathize most, place myself in her shoes, and be moved into seeking ways to help her, shopping for a better alarm clock, reminding her to sleep earlier at night, maybe waking up even earlier than she does and preparing her a nice cup of coffee to help her wake up each morning. I would feel invited and moved to help her the way I would try to help myself in her situation. Yet when she doesn't share this with me and just writes or speaks to herself by telling herself, "You need to wake up earlier," that maximally makes me feel like I need to respect her privacy, independence, and be more hands-off and even deliberately try to emotionally distance myself as much as possible so that I don't risk being nosy about her business in unwelcome ways. I'm so clearly not the intended audience when "you" as spoken by a narrator refers to someone other than me and I deliberately want to detach my sense of involvement in those cases. I think that's what's happening in my case psychologically. I am not 100% sure but I'm just really finding while reading The Fifth Season that I have so little empathy for the character even though I'm sure I would have so much more if it were written in 1st or 3rd person. The writing style is making me feel as though, even in my basic inclinations to empathize with her character, that I'm being too voyeuristic and invasive of her space and that I need to shut down this feeling out of a sense of respect that I'm not the intended audience of her writing. It's that feeling, you know, when someone says, "Hey you!" at a party and you turn around and think it's you being addressed, only to realize it's another person. Then you deliberately try to avoid eavesdropping or, even if you can't help but overhear the conversation, avoid becoming too involved and deliberately try to detach to avoid risking an unwelcome intrusion into their conversation. That's the alienating effect that 2nd person POV seems to have on me.

[@lesliemoiseauthor]

Intriguing. I have never considered writing in second POV.

[@jeremyhennessee6604]

Hello Shaelin, Forgive this being somewhat off topic, but I am a New reader of your work and just wanted to say I think you do an AMAZING job. Your short story How to Slaughter (on The Common Website) drew me in and kept me captivated until the end. I think in part because I grew up in a similar setting as the story's main protagonist, and was much like Ruth myself in regards to personality. I've never attempted a short fiction work before, but have considered trying my hand at it soon, when time allows. And your videos are VERY informative to me. Ty for that. I'll recommend your wonderful works to all of my reading friends. (few as they are in my small, Rural Southern environment that would be very much at home in a Faulkner novel.) Your style of writing makes one invested in the characters. I found myself CARING about dear Ruth, and empathizing greatly with her plight. It was very bildungsroman. Well. I'll quit yapping. Apologies again for the off topic comment. Just wanted to say I think your work is Amazing and I intend to buy all of your books when budget allows. (Until then, I'll continue to scrounge the net in pursuit of your short fiction .) Have a good day ma'am. J.s.h.

[@ShaelinWrites]

Wow thank you so much!! this comment really made my day!

[@andrewverlaine]

Thanks for this! My most recent novel is in first person plural, but has a series of stories within the story in the second person

[@Glitch-qj3nj]

Interactive books interesting idea

[@Lara_Ameen]

I absolutely love IN THE DREAM HOUSE by Carmen Maria Machado! One of my favorite books I’ve read this year! So unique! This is a wonderful presentation! I’ve written a few short stories in 2nd person, but that’s about it. It’s definitely not as common, but interesting to play around with.

[@StarlasAiko]

Mostly Pure Second Person is used for Choose Your Own Adventure interactive novels, with Instructional Second Person at the end of the paragraphs to give the reader the options on how the story might continue from the current point (and to what paragraph to flip to to continue the story with consequences of the selected choice). I have not ever encountered 2nd person in any other form of fiction.

[@kmundwiller3936]

OMG it's like you splashed water in my face. I'm writing a 1st person novel...well I'm on the sequel. Editing the 1st. And I'm thinking 2nd person would be PERFECT. IF I can get it right...

[@AcademicType616]

There’s an old saying, friends don’t let friends write in second person (unless it’s a choose your own adventure). Interested to see if you’ll deconstruct this :)

[@leocockenpot]

Don't forget "Choose your own adventure" books!

[@abbyagust]

I read a book that used the second person POV called Human Acts by Han Kang, which is about the Gwangju Uprising in South Korea during the 1980s. It literally made me sob, and books don't make me cry often. Read it if you're interested in South Korea’s history or want to read about atrocities. The content is very heavy, however, and seldom lets you feel happy.

[@ShaelinWrites]

Han Kang is an incredible author!! The White Book is one of my favourite books ever (also made me cry haha)

[@abbyagust]

@@ShaelinWrites omg so happy to find another Han Kang enjoyer! I'm definitely adding the White Room to my list now haha

[@guadalupefreyre5900]

9:07 12:37 13:55 15:10 16:05 17:36 20:13

[@thevintageplaylist7191]

I just finished reading an AWESOME book with a 2nd person pov and i loved that aspect of the novel, the book is "she rises" by kate worsley, is an adult novel set in the 18th century, it has lgbt representation and the prose is perfect🥺 I thought you may enjoy it

[@ShaelinWrites]

Okay must check this out!!

[@emmyelenakatzen]

ooh adding this one to my tbr!!

[@helloyoutube3064]

So the second person is from somewhere else telling about themselves why they did that, kind of regretting something, isn't it?

[@kaikawamura8361]

I really like this explanation of 2nd person but I was confused when you mentioned how it can be psychically closer or farther depending on the piece. I was wondering what some examples of that are and how a writer would do that

[@ShaelinWrites]

Just like how 1st person and 3rd person can be psychically closer or further depending on the book, the same goes for 2nd person! A 2nd person that has a more external view of the character will be farther than one that has a very intimate, perhaps even stream of consciousness relationship to the character.

[@successhabits4014]

I'm writing a nonfiction in second person, where the reader is the protagonist. Sorta like I am writing to my younger self if I were that age today. Do you know of any examples of this? :)

[@zanleuxs]

I just had an idea: what if you could take that feeling some people have when reading second person, (like they are being told that they did things they would never do), and enhance it to create a feeling of being controlled. Like, maybe a protagonist is being mind controlled by someone else, and every time they're being controlled, it's in second person, to enforce that feeling of being controlled?

[@aliti9315]

Yes. You got it. That would be a fantastic use if you ask me. Do it and tell me when you publish :)

[@zanleuxs]

@@aliti9315 thank you! I've taken a break from writing at the moment but I can tell you if I get back into it, feel free to use the idea in your own writing if you want 💙

[@nereiluwa9712]

Quick question, what if you’re writing a piece where the narrator isn’t a character nor is he participating in the book. What is this style of writing called?

[@miraclenovelist5588]

all the homestucks are cackling right now.

[@thewritingsisters]

Not too familiar with 2nd pov will be informative thank you

[@Heyoooo99]

12:56 would DND count?

[@trashstratum]

this is great content, but your audio levels are way too low!

[@thewritingsisters]

Q- what’s 2nd person? I dint think I’ve read much in that pov

[@rachelthompson9324]

Often, when I critique second person, I see many of the same mistakes. Mostly POV infractions, that is, POV character's knowing what they can't know yet. I also see retrospection in play when and where it can't exist in the story. I see a lot of bad dialogue tags or no tags at all which creates reader confusion. 2ad is hard to read anyway and done poorly, it's word spaghetti.

[@ivythealiencat]

Every y/n story

[@BlackHermit]

I am SO GLAD to hear that this video starts with "Hi, everyone" rather than "Hi, guys"!!! I noticed that you start your Reedsy videos with "Hi, everyone" but your ShaelinWrites videos with "Hi, guys" and I was (jokingly) like "Uh, is this channel for guys only?" :)

[@NonAnonD]

Anyone know what happened to the query video they were going to do?

[@ShaelinWrites]

It’s still in the works!! But just taking a little longer than planned because my agent, Rachel, is actually going to join in to discuss why the query worked so it’ll just take a little longer to organize. Should be ready to post early August!

[@write.31]

Could a Charater in a book get out of character. I guess it would be breaking the fourth wall

[@and111en]

getting out of character and breaking the fourth wall is diff tho getting out of character is more like chara A suddenly does things that are unexpected and/or dont make sense for their traits and development meanwhile breaking fourth wall is when a character realizes there's an audience witnessing their story and possibly interacting with the reader (rick riordan's books r known for having this technique as the opening i think)

[@jackhaggerty1066]

Joe in *Cain's Book* by Alex Trocchi (1963) gets out of character if he can be considered a character. Joe speaks in the First Person, but it is as if the story is telling the story to Joe, in Shaelin's haunting phrase. From page one Joe is injecting and is talking to the reader (or just himself?) who has no idea of what heroine is like. And he also quotes from the book he is writing, Cain's Book, though it is never clear who Abel might be, unless it is straight society. Heroine certainly breaks down the fourth wall and I speak as one who has never touched recreational drugs and only drink modestly. Trocchi championed what he called self-conscious writing which to him meant Samuel Beckett and the philosophy of Unamuno. *Is there no character in the book large enough to doubt the validity of the book itself ?*

[@Direwreck]

6 minutes into the video and finally only then getting an explanation on what 2nd person POV is after a lengthy dissertation on unnecessary context which would be better explored in a video of its own.

[@PeterMacansky]

[@seanlovelyramsey1053]

Harrow the Ninth anyone?

[@jackhaggerty1066]

I just looked up Harrow the Ninth on Wiki never having heard of it. On what planet am I dreaming this? Ianthe Tridentarius sounds a wee bit like Hermes Trismegistus who some say was a contemporary of Moses. A good question for Rabbi Tovia Singer on KZbin.

[@ronjaronja9928]

That's the book I wanted to recommend! Yes, yes, yes, absolutely fantastic use of the 2nd person POV and sooooo devastating when you realize the who and the what and the why.

[@celebalert5616]

It was forgotten for a reason

[@confusedwhale]

I don't like 2nd person perspective, because it's annoying as duck. There's nothing "myth conception" about it.