WS2811 Pixel Data - How Far Can It Go With and Without a F-Amp

[@negativez00]

Thanks for your work on this. Understanding these ranges definitely helps as I plan my layout.

[@wsyproductions1139]

Steve, stumbled onto your videos a few weeks ago and have to say you've answered so many technical questions I had regarding pixel use. Thank you! In terms of this video, i have a unique situation where I need to run 2ft extensions between EACH pixel in a run of approx 32 pixels @ 12v. So, for example, the setup is: FalconF16-- 20FT 18awg extension -- PIXEL -- 2ft 18awg extension -- PIXEL -- 2ft 18awg extension -- PIXEL -- 2ft 18awg extension -- PIXEL -- etc up until there's 32 total pixels and a total length of about 80ft of wire/lights. I will have power injection at the beginning and end of the total run to balance things out. The 2ft extensions are custom wires I'm making using 4 conductor 18awg Monoprice wire, with one wire for V+, one for Data, and the other two bonded together for V- to hopefully help avoid voltage ground corruption. Based on this video it looks like the chip in the pixels have no problem repeating data upwards of 30ft, so in theory I shouldn't have an issue with spacing each individual light out 2ft apart correct? Or, in your testing, do you think there's some type of cumulative degradation of the signal with that distance between multiple pixels and I'll need to slip in an F-amp along the line, or take similar action? Thanks in advance and keep up the great work! I look forward to your future videos.

[@NiFamilyLights]

Thanks for the comment and kind words. I’m glad these videos are helping you out. As for your specific situation, your planned setup should work just fine with no issues. You have mitigated the most significant factor which is voltage loss by powering the beginning and end of the run. You also mitigated voltage loss by using the Monoprice pure copper wire. So, you should expect to have no issues whatsoever. You should not need any FAmps. Each pixel regenerates data to be transmitted to the following pixels, and 2 feet is of no concern. Data gets corrupted due to voltage loss across long runs and/or poor ground lines resulting noise affecting data. In your planned setup, you have mitigated those concerns. That’s a lot of soldering to add the 2 ft Monoprice segments between pixels. It’ll take some time to get all that done, so enjoy it knowing it’s going to work out great.

[@wsyproductions1139]

@@NiFamilyLights Awesome! Based on your video I hoped I would be OK but glad you've confirmed the idea. I plugged the info into the power calculator and it should also be sufficient with injecting at either end. I have the first strand about half finished and will hopefully be testing the full 32 light run next week. And yea you're not kidding its a TON of soldering and heat shrink, so I have recruited a few people to help so I'm not connecting wires until 2025 :) Thanks again

[@vicentesalinas8259]

Thank you! Awesome video! With F-amps I can now leave my F16v3 in the garage and run the ports through the attic and come out through the eaves for a clean look! The most I would need is 50' from port to pixels and run them at 30%... Thank you!

[@hle414]

Thank you for this. New to this pixel lighting so I definitely enjoy the "how-to" videos.

[@kevincobb4346]

Excellent Video Steve. Thank you!

[@rugerboy58]

Steve, Outstanding test and video! Thanks for posting. Happy New Year to you and your family! Ed

[@ronaldchand588]

Very good and clear explanation. Excellent video. On a side note, do you build your own cat5/cat6 patch cords to connect your receivers to the controller?

[@NiFamilyLights]

Yes, I do. I have spools of Cat5e/Cat6 network cables that I used to make both custom extension cables and also patch cords to connect my receivers to the controller. The cable works great for both uses. As a custom extension pixel wire, you can see how well it works for that purpose in my "How To - Make Custom Pixel Extension Wires" video.

[@ronaldchand588]

@@NiFamilyLights . Thanks so much. Any specific configuration you use, either A or B or it doesn't matter as long as its same on both ends. Thanks!

[@andyperez8252]

Great video Steve!!! By any chance did you do any test with extension between pixels? Say you test at 28% 40ft extension before first pixel (300 pixels) then added another 40 ft extension before the remaining pixels. Would you still be able to get away with having F Amp at the beginning or would have to put F Amp before the remaining pixels?

[@NiFamilyLights]

Andy Perez, no I did not. There are too many combinations to possibly cover. With 300 pixels, 28%, and 40ft extension with an F-Amp, the signal should be fine. Adding another 40 feet without an F-Amp to the remaining (I assume you're thinking of 50 more pixels) I would ballpark guess wouldn't work. You'll be cutting it real close, so to be safe, you may want to have extra F-Amps around just in case.

[@andyperez8252]

@@NiFamilyLights Thanks Steve!!! I’ll pickup some F-Amps.

[@lifts586]

You should try this with dual data pixels. From my experience dual data drops signal strength quite a bit. I can push about 400 seed pixels (3 wire / single data) however that number is much lower with dual data seed pixels. It's between 200-244 seeds. The same is true of dual data bullet pixels.

[@NiFamilyLights]

Thanks for the comment and for sharing that dual data seed pixels suffer data integrity issues over long runs compared to normal seed pixels. I wonder if the same goes with dual data regular pixels. If I get my hands on any, I’ll see if my experience is the same as yours.

[@echwel73]

Nice test, thank you :) Although there are still many variables that can differ from practical use. Most important one is wire gauge I think. (Perhaps I missed it, and you did mention it in the video) I assume 18 AWG? And if you are going to power inject, it opens another can of worms. It can make the results better, but also worse in some cases when it comes to signal quality. At least that is my practical experience. Thank you for the excel sheet, I will use it as a reference for sure.

[@NiFamilyLights]

You are welcome. Wire used is definitely important. I cover the materials in the beginning in the Test Setup section. It's vendor supplied "18 awg" 10' pre-made extension. They say it's 18 awg, but I think it's more like 20-22 awg.

[@joekennedy1950]

Great Video! Can you post a link to the LED strings you are using? Thanks!

[@NiFamilyLights]

The pixels I'm showing in this video are 12V regulated pixels purchased in 2017 from DIYLedExpress. However, you can now get pixels (regulated and resistor based) from a variety of vendors.

[@jonbetts8473]

Can you do one for power as well?!? And which is the limiting factor at different distances/AWG (data or power) ??? Awesome stuff!

[@NiFamilyLights]

Jon, there are a few videos that touch on the questions you're asking. The best one to watch first is this one on how to make custom pixel extension wires. You are correct in that the quality of the wire makes a big difference. kzbin.info/www/bejne/g6HVYYGObq2UhrM

[@zski1]

Hello Steve. This is a great video, even today. I want to ask, I’m having issues with my icicles along the roof line. My 2nd run from port 2 is about 50ft from the controller and I use an F-amp to the first 220 with a PI, and no issue. The total of icicles are 546. However, the last 336 keep flickering and I have 3 more PI points and they still slightly flicker. I don’t know why. My voltages look pretty good, but do you think this is data? I forgot to add, I had to put a 5ft extension cable after pixel 220 up to another part of my roof. Is it possible, the cable is killing the data down the roof?

[@NiFamilyLights]

@zski1, thanks, glad the video is helpful for you. You are definitely experiencing data corruption along the length of that pixel run. I will assume that you're running the pixels at 30%. Regardless of the output brightness, you likely have plenty of voltage (power). I ran into exactly the same issue with my Megatree the first year. I had 510 pixels in 3 segments. The first 170 was fine, I power injected to the 2nd set of 170, and power injected one more time for the 3rd set of 170. Even at 30%, I would get flickering on the 2nd and third set of pixels. What I learned is the data line shares the GND (or V-) as the reference signal. So, increasing the wire gauge for the GND (V-) line greatly improved the data signal quality, since power used by the pixel causes more current to flow on the GND line, which then adds noise and subsequently interferes with the data signal integrity. In addition to improving the ground line cable quality (thicker wire), I found that power balancing various sections also helped to reduce GND noise for the data signal. If it's possible for you to power balance each section of your icicles by adding V+ and GND wires from the first pixel to the last pixel of each icicle section (6' or 8' or whatever the length is), that'll greatly improve the GND line which in turn will make your data quality solid again. Sorry for the long explanation, and I hope it helps. I show both power balancing (aka self-power injection) and power injection in this video to chain pixel props for very long runs, like your icicle run. kzbin.info/www/bejne/kJPClJKqg7inb5I

[@zski1]

@@NiFamilyLights Thank you, Steve!! It’s funny because I’ve got my 945 icicles working flawlessly with your tips. But having issues with only 405 pixels along the top of the icicles. I have sufficient power injection, maybe too much, a placed Famps throughout, but still get a subtle flicker from some of the pixels on certain strings. But I think it’s a mediocre heat shrink job because I don’t think I gave it enough heat for the solder to spread into the wires because I was afraid I’d burn them. Apparently not. They are very strong. the show works and you can’t even tell. But after the season, I’ll redo the connections and hope it solves the issue.

[@NiFamilyLights]

@zski1, You know what’s funny, I had some seemly random glitching on one of my megatree outputs, but specifically on the strings that were power injected off one of the outputs. After messing around trying to trouble shoot the problem, I discovered that the power injection cable was passing directly over the diff receiver network cables. Once I separated them, the glitch went away. You can’t have too much power balancing/injection. Check where your cables are running and see if they’re on top of each other. If they are, try separating them and maybe your flickering run will be good too. It’s worth trying.

[@zski1]

@@NiFamilyLights Thank you, Steve. I think I may have a couple on top of each other. What’s also odd, with the lights completely off and controller on, I get the same glitching in some of the strings. So, it may be some interference from the cables themselves because they’re all running parallel in the gutter for the icicles.

[@nikhidas23]

Nice! It looks like you use a JST to XConnect adapter. Can you please let me know if that's right? If so, where do we get them?

[@NiFamilyLights]

I don't use any JST connectors in the show. JST connections are not weatherproof. My show uses the screw connectors that was one generation prior to xConnect. They are all 3 pin plug and screw type. The 3 pins correspond to V+, V- (GND), and Data.

[@nikhidas23]

@@NiFamilyLights Thank you! That really helps

[@JustinNovack]

Those multimeter leads just lying on that power supply gave me agita!

[@NiFamilyLights]

Haha, right. I kept an eye on them for sure. The risk is pretty low as the power supply screw terminals have plastic dividers preventing cross terminal contact.

[@mikerose5951]

New to this, so a newbie question. With 150 pixels and 40' extension the pixels worked. But with 350 pixels an 40 feet extensions no pixels lit up. Why does the data not at least go through some of the pixels, say the first 150 since 40 feet worked with 150 pixels alone?

[@NiFamilyLights]

Mike Rose, what you are questioning is one of the conclusions drawn from the video that will pay you dividends to understand. The Ground line is used by the pixels for power and for data. The pixels use the difference between the data line and the ground line to determine if it's reading a 1 or a 0 digital value. When more pixels are being driven (350 vs 150), the 350 pixels will draw power and cause noise on the ground line. This noise essentially corrupts the reference ground that the pixels need to interpret the data. The corruption results in no good data signal (all 0s), so the pixels all stay off or freeze. If the noise isn't horribly bad but still bad, you get the random color flickering as shown in one of the tests. However, there's a solution to this that's not explored in this video, as it would make the video too long, and that is to power inject. I am planning to cover some practical power injection methods in future videos -- improving voltage sag (color loss) and better grounding (stable data).

[@leemontgomery72]

Does the f-amp need to be before or after the power injection wires? I have my esp32 running 16 feet, the next set is where I connected the power injection.

[@NiFamilyLights]

I would recommend putting the F-Amp after power injecting. The improved power baseline will allow the the F-Amp to do its best to boost and cleanup the signal as much as possible. If you do it before the power injection point and the voltage has decreased too much, the F-Amp can only do so much to create a solid signal. That said, if the data coming in is already poor, the F-Amp will not be able to remove all the noise. When I chain props with lengths between runs, I recommend power injecting and boosting the signal before a length of run to the next prop. Best of luck.

[@MrSpalmer70]

I really like your videos by the way. What about using 75 ohm coax cable to transfer data over distance? I have been searching about this option, but there is nothing really out thee on it.

[@NiFamilyLights]

Thanks MrSpalmer. I haven’t tried that type of cable for data. I presume that would work. If you do that, how would you get power to the prop? If you end up running separate AC power to the prop and place a power supply there, you might as well use a smart/differential receiver.

[@MrSpalmer70]

@@NiFamilyLights True. I was just curious as I have some coax laying around. The power like you said would have to be ran separate (at least the +).

[@Crasher-ug9tb]

Yes this works well with Null pixel between controller and first and numerous strings after.....BUT what is the scenario when you want to jump from the end of say a 235 light string 10ft to the next level is the f-amp gonna help with that?

[@NiFamilyLights]

Yes, it certainly will help in that situation. After 235 pixels, you could add an F-amp and should power inject before the next set of 235 or more pixels. I actually do that for one of the shows I run. Without the F-Amp, all white can get flaky with the second set of 234 pixels despite having enough power. The F-Amp cleans the signal plenty to chain another large batch of pixels with no problem.

[@mourisyounan9998]

Well you have the same results if you run the same set up from the controller and without the first pixel in line ?

[@NiFamilyLights]

Mouris Younan, if you're running from a Falcon or Kulp controller, you're likely to have better results than what's shown in these tests. I didn't run the tests from the small test controller, as that's not representative of what most people use to run their shows.

[@melvinguzman5339]

Do I need a pixel at the beginning of the control to able to run pixels 200 feet away from the control or just I can do it with f amp ?

[@NiFamilyLights]

You do not need to have a pixel at the beginning of the run. I have a pixel there with the tester just so I know what the tester is sending out to the pixels I'm testing. I later discovered that the output resistor network of the controller is often the limiting factor. See this linked video. If the output resistor network of the controller is 33 ohms, you'll get the best data signal driving distance (the same as an F-Amp). kzbin.info/www/bejne/jJicmJ6NerRgnrM

[@royalcreations]

Hey, where did you buy that cable and the pixels ?

[@NiFamilyLights]

The 10’ pre-made extension cables came from the same vendor that I purchased the pixels from. Most every pixel vendor also sells these types of cables in a variety of lengths. I only purchased 10’ lengths so they are all the same, and if I need one, I just grab another one.

[@tuongpham2811]

Nice. How about if we can put another power injection to the end of 250 ft 300 pixel that would help

[@NiFamilyLights]

Power injection is another topic. To keep this test as straight forward as possible, I didn't want to complicate the video by showing the benefits of power injection. There are many ways to power inject and doing so would certainly solve distance issues shown here.

[@thecrumeister365]

Can you use an F-amp to just boost the data and not the voltage and do power injection at the pixels with a separate power supply? I'm looking to control about 300 pixels about 65' from the controller.

[@NiFamilyLights]

Yes, you can. With a 65’ extension to the pixels, the wire you use for the extension will be critical. Check out my video on “How to make custom pixel extension wiring” for what will work for you. In addition, if you have a Falcon F16 controller, you can make a simple mod to the controller, and you may not need to use any F-Amps. That video is called “the Power of 33 ohms”. Best of luck.

[@GTouch25]

I'm new to this, which ones is better, the three wires pixels or the four wires pixels, thanks

[@NiFamilyLights]

Welcome to the hobby! I am only familiar with 3 wire RGB WS2811 pixels. If the 4 wire are RGBW pixels, I believe those are a generation only than the pixels I use and that are shown in my videos.

[@atomicdetailsoc]

is F amp needed with digiquad controller?

[@NiFamilyLights]

I’m not sure. I don’t have any experience with the digiquad.

[@HalbertFamilyFishing]

Great video. You wouldn't happen to have any data like this for a 5v pixel? I have a strand of 176 5v LEDs across my roofline. I'm trying to figure out how many amps it pulls :/. Thanks!

[@NiFamilyLights]

Halbert Family, I have unfortunately not done extensive testing with 5V pixels. I have spent a little time with them and found that they suffer from voltage loss well before you’d notice data corruption. So, if you are power balancing those regularly (every 100 pixels or so), then you shouldn’t have data issues.

[@HalbertFamilyFishing]

@@NiFamilyLights Ok great. Thanks for the reply!

[@mjasinski288]

Why are you using a single pixel at the beginning of the run? Also isn’t that also automatically add some distance? Thanks for the video.

[@NiFamilyLights]

I have a single pixel in the beginning to simulate a "worst case" starting point, data coming from a standard 12v pixel. That way the little tester's output performance isn't what's being tested. Also noted is that outputs from a Falcon, Kulp, or other pixel controller would likely be much better than a single pixel. Yes, having the single pixel adds some length. The tests aren't for precision. It's to give a ballpark idea of how far data can travel, without and with a F-Amp.

[@mjasinski288]

@@NiFamilyLights Thank you! great video!

[@hemensdungeon4318]

This is great!! Been trying to convince my boss that we dont need to splice in more power every 50 lights... the f-amp is perfect!!! Do you have a link for parts etc??? Mainly the f-amp??? Also we are inly running 254 lights in all. May not even need a f-amp.. but better safe tha sorry

[@NiFamilyLights]

Hemens, glad you found my channel. Check out some of the other videos I have which may also help with your planning. For the F-Amp, you can get them at pixelcontroller.com.

[@Peter_A1466]

Ever tried inserting one pixel in every extension line, or moving the F-amp further down the line?

[@NiFamilyLights]

I have not inserted a pixel between extensions. If you do, you need to modify settings within xLights or the controller to account for the NULL pixels. That could help if you are willing to modify your configuration. For most controllers (other than the F16v4 and AlphaPix controllers), the controller output impedance is higher than 33ohms. The higher output impedance is there to protect the controller. The F-Amp has a 33 ohm output resistor. Why is that important? Because that’s what the WS2821 chip input impedance is to match data signals. That is needed to best achieve data driving distances. So, putting the F-Amp closer to the controller output will clean up the signal with the cleanest original signal and impedance match for good transmission of data. Putting the F-Amp later down the line means you may be at the point where the data signal is already prone to having data corruption. So, potentially bad data in would result in bad data out. Also, at the distances an F-Amp can send data, if you are beyond that limit, you are also likely to have significant voltage loss on the V+ line. Check out this video I made on the power of 33ohms. m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/jJicmJ6NerRgnrM

[@Sparky5]

I always run a relay node every four feet regardless.

[@zski1]

I’m getting flickering on my icicle down the roof line and I have plenty of injections. Do you think putting more f-amps down the chain of pixels would help with that?

[@skrame01]

About 3 ft.