WTF! Was Super Saiyan 4 Stronger Than Super Saiyan God Forms ALL ALONG?

[@RevoluShane]

God Goku Vs Golden Oozaru Goku (Equal Base stats) Your thoughts?

[@BANGXIII]

atp golden oozaru goku him losing himself and raging out would allow him to access rage boosts which could give him the edge against godku and I dont think goku has ever been good with fighting great apes.

[@DragonBallz-s9h]

I knew it it was stronger now imagine ssj5

[@katherineevangelia11]

if they want to make connection from Dragon Ball Super to GT. it can become like this, SSGSSB>Blue Oozaru->Super Saiyan 4.

[@j.i.k2.044]

God Goku beats any version of GT Goku. The GT perfect files put Syn Shenron at galaxy level, it's not even a challenge. Then when you factor in abilities that god Goku can use like Ultra Instinct and god bind it's not even a close battle. God Goku would just pull off GT Goku's tail and knock him out with UI 💯

[@_DatDaft_]

Golden Great Ape Goku would win, sure he’s got the disadvantages of being a giant monkey that’s out of control, but then you realise that Golden Great Ape Goku was stated (by Elder Kai) that he was growing stronger by the minute, take that as you will. If SSG Goku had = states to a Golden Great Ape Goku, SSG Goku wouldn’t be = for long.

[@charzanboo9940]

The harder to draw, the less likely to return...

[@DestroyerRants]

toyotaro made dragon ball af I’m fairly certain he’s completely fine with drawing ssj4 and the form he created ssj5

[@BANGXIII]

@@DestroyerRantsfacts i can definitely see him adding the transformations. Especially with the lore we are getting in daima.

[@JT-km6th]

@@DestroyerRantsstill harder to draw

[@raiden8991]

It's more difficult to animate it than to draw it especially the movement of the hair.

[@JT-km6th]

@@raiden8991 same reason Toriyama stopped drawing tails, except for drawing.

[@nuttherbutter4075]

SSJ4 is stronger because it's way cooler. Take that nerds.

[@MajinUltraEgo]

It's not, The form doesn't even make sense

[@mike1989libra]

How does it not make sense it makes way more sense then a god form

[@FounderX9]

@@mike1989libra Its NOT a SSJ form, its just body hair with no nipples and a stupid ass tail

[@dspectre1572]

​@@MajinUltraEgoleave these gt meat riders😅. The form is cool to give it credit but it's not just among the 3 best forms

[@Poseidon-P]

your just mad GT cancelled as soon as it released on TV

[@justinhachey8555]

Is nobody gonna mention daima? Its clear goku gets massively weakened by being turned into a child, not to mention GT goku gets turned with stronger dragon balls. Adding to this, SSJ4 is breaking universal tier magic by undoing the spell by the dragon balls and returning him to his full power by giving him his adult body back, so why isnt this taken into consideration when power scaling SSJ4? SSJ4 is half the equation because he is also being restored to his actual power level and then getting the SSJ4 boost.

[@altaire34]

I’ve genuinely never thought about that

[@justinhachey8555]

@VictorNieves-o3o 1. Yes Daima Goku is about 6 where GT Goku is about 12 2. I am rewatching GT currently and it is stated by Goku that he isnt as strong as he was, he couldnt use instant transmission either. Sure he was alot more casual about it but he certainly lost a good bit of power. Remember that in all of DB its a core idea that mind, body and soul have to be balanced to be at peak power, Goku absolutely isnt balanced with his body being a child. Again it was mentioned when he goes SSJ3 as a kid and states that his body as a child cannot handle the power of the form for that long, there was absolutely a power dip, possibly even greater considering Goku cant use IT in GT but can in Daima.

[@jinneasbushindo7554]

Easy answer is Vegeta was never turned into a kid and did a Super Saiyan 4 transformation (albeit using Bulma's device) and his SS4 power wasn't weakened. Nor was Vegeta affected by the Dragonballs. No, I believe that they mentioned the 'air' in the daemon realm being so thick on purpose because it's some sort of ki suppressor as in it compresses ki like water pressure crushes a body the deeper you go. One of the things Whis mentions about Super Saiyan 3 was that it was leaking ki like crazy, whereas god ki keeps all energy within the body. I believe that the 'air' or spiritual pressure in the daemon realm would push so hard against against Goku that SS3 and SS4 forms wouldn't leak very much, thus keeping a higher concentration of power within their bodies. Now the big problem would be the training needed to make their bodies durable enough to contain the ki. We saw what happened when Goku used Kaioken x 10 during the first tournament against Hit. It busted up his body and King Kai had to fix him and told him not to ever do it again. Then Goku trained his body more so he could handle Kaioken x 20 (if I remember correctly). We'll see how it goes, but in my opinion, the Super Saiyan 4 form should've been busted out by Goten & Trunks as an alternative to Super Saiyan Blue and also as a means to extend their fusion well beyond the 5 or 30 minute mark. Perhaps maybe they use the Dragonballs or Bulma's tech to make the form happen initially and maybe even skip the Golden OOzaru step altogether.

[@justinhachey8555]

@@jinneasbushindo7554 what?

[@Joshdb98]

Daima is before the Battle of Gods arc, so I'm not sure what exactly the point here is. Of course GT Goku is stronger than Daima Goku.

[@nova_zar]

SSJ4 is implied to draw out it's power from the user's latent potential and not through a multiplier, similar to Ultimate Gohan, and as we see in Dragon Ball, someone's potential can be increased thought training so SSJ4 has the potential to be stronger than the God forms, it just depends on the user's potential.

[@DamienRitfeld]

What statement was that

[@Naruku2121]

@@DamienRitfeld Could be the GT Perfect Files I think.

[@eli.0006]

Goku and Vegeta would’ve NEVER reached the level of ssg if they trained their whole life so no

[@Naruku2121]

@@eli.0006 Yet Cabba can scale to a Vegeta who had training with Whis. Which can be aruged if using the anime scaling means that Goku and Vegeta's base is at least SSG tier or above given Goku absorbing that power. Vegeta catches up to that same Goku and trains 3 years worth in the HBTC and some random Saiyan without even SSJ can stand up to that version of Vegeta. Let's not kid ourselves the more Super went on the less Godki really means anything when most of their opponents are still mortals pushing Godki users like Goku and Vegeta be it in SSG or SSB.

[@eli.0006]

@@Naruku2121 Because cabba has insane potential and the scaling in dbs is busted. Gt characters never threatened to destroy the whole universe with a few punches

[@maximillianoorosco-randhaw9336]

You know what's cool and scary at the same time about Super Saiyan 4? In GT Perfect files, SSJ4 was stated to take a saiyan's power to their potential. There is no multiplier, just potential. And Goku absorbed power from his fellow saiyan warriors(Gohan, Goten, Trunks and Pan) twice and became Super Full Power Saiyan 4 and then Ultra Super Full Power Saiyan 4, it came across as not only Goku became stronger, but the form itself, meaning that the transformation granted the Goku more power then when he had first achieved it. And Vegeta achieved it as well and despite only just getting it and not being granted power from his fellow saiyans, he was still evenly matched with Goku! Based on the GT Perfect Files's information and how Super Saiyan 4 was utilized in GT, it's almost portrayed as the Saiyan equivalent to the Ultimate Form from Elder Kai! Edit: heck when Trunks even stated in the Shadow Dragon Saga about SSJ4 Goku’s power Quote: “He’s taken his max power as Super Saiyan 4 and extended even further!” plus, the Super Dragon Ball Heroes: Ultra God Mission manga(an official Dragon Ball story mind you), provides a scaling of how strong Super Saiyan 4 can become. After defeating Demigra, CC Goku and Goku Xeno have one final fight to settle their score. They both start off in base and are shown to be equal in power. Then they start going through their common forms; Super Saiyan 1, 2 and 3, and they’re still shown to be equal. When they used their unique forms is when things started to get interesting. CC Goku turns Super Saiyan God during a Kamehameha beam clash, and which Goku Xeno responds by turning Super Saiyan 4. After that CC Goku turns Super Saiyan Blue and lands a kick to SSJ4 Goku’s facing, only for Goku Xeno return the favor with an equally strong hook to CC Goku’s face, and they’re still going toe to toe with each other. Then they hit their strongest forms; Xeno goes Super Full Power Saiyan: Limits Broken and CC turns Ultra Instinct(Sign) and once again they’re still even. It’s when CC uses Silver Ultra Instinct that he managed to beat Goku Xeno. This showed that Super Saiyan 4, along with its variants such as Full Power and Limits Broken have the potential(pun intended) to rival the God Forms. Edit: Goku’s Xeno’s Super Saiyan Four is most likely Super Full Power Saiyan 4 even though it’s not out right stated.

[@spincycle6724]

thaank you I was about to say that

[@nnnovacaineee]

Perfect explanation

[@maximillianoorosco-randhaw9336]

@@nnnovacaineee Thank you for the kind words. 😊

[@maximillianoorosco-randhaw9336]

@@spincycle6724 Thank you for the kind words. 😊

[@redeye24657]

Yea but it's also stated in the guide books that its a multiplier also that's what multiplier due increase your power so I don't get your point

[@valentin28341]

The answer is in SDBH, which although it is not canon, can be taken as official information, because Toei has work on that anime. Xeno Goku went through the events of GT, that is, his Ssj4 is Full Power with the help of Gohan, Goten, Trunks and Pan. For his part, a Super Goku in SDBH did not even reach the end of DBZ, so his Basic forms make Xeno Goku more powerful than Super, who even trained to bring Uub's power to its full potential as Kid Buu's reincarnation. The difference in experiences and events is abysmal. Even so, a Ssj Blue without power-ups fights on par with a more experienced Xeno Goku Ssj4, who underwent a power increase with Gohan, Goten and Trunks in GT. There is no official data on multipliers, but Toei itself, who created the Ssj4 and GT, indirectly mentions that an Ssj Blue has a higher multiplier to the base form than the Ssj4 due to matchups that they themselves do. Goku Ssj Blue = Xeno Goku Ssj4 But: Ssj Blue > Ssj4 Still, good video.

[@he_who_has_no_name]

6:41 no, you can't. Because immediately after getting Super Saiyan God (which he still had more faith in than fusion) Goku stated that it was stronger than he imagined it would be. This may get retconned, but even still, it's likely 100 or so times stronger than Super Saiyan 2. Given fusion multipliers. Furthermore, in the manga Goku calls Super Saiyan God a whole new world of power while fighting Beerus. For that to be the case, it would logically have to be stronger than Vegito. Edit: About the Kefla fight, you can argue against it using that fight. But that could be Kefla being unreasonably strong for no conceivable reason. And this argument is anime only. Furthermore, we know fusion has a strange boost. It's hard to figure out the exact number. In the Japanese, Vados states it's dozens of times. Which is really hard to determine. And Kale + Caulifla probably gives a compatibility boost larger than usual fighters. Plus there's the A × B multiplier that would actually make Super Saiyan God even stronger. And, regardless, this still doesn't effect the manga.

[@azimuddin1890]

I think it should be at least stronger than Super Vegetto 3, maybe x2 the power, so x320,000.

[@BANGXIII]

I'd agree but we saw god goku and blueku + kaioken get smacked on by kefla. The story showed this for a very specifc reason which is to confirm fusion is stronger than Godforms.

[@azimuddin1890]

I’d say it’s not the mergers power, but the base power that makes up the mergers’ power. Let me give an example. The Boo Saga versions of Gokou & Vegeta are weaker than U.6 vs U.7’s version. Let’s say… Boo Saga: Gokou & Vegeta - 2 Boo Saga: Vegetto - 4 U.6 vs U.7 Saga: Gokou & Vegeta - 3 Hypothetical U.6 vs U.7 Saga: Vegetto - 9 It’s not a set multiplier, in some guides it’s A x B, or something along with power fused with someone else’s power to make up the merger. So at that time, Boo Saga Vegetto is weaker than Super Saiyajin God, but U.6 vs U.7 Vegetto would be stronger than Super Saiyajin God because the components have gotten significantly stronger.

[@curryposterizeslewashedjam3588]

@@BANGXIIIhe only got smacked because he was already taxing himself and considering he was relative to Kefla while being weaker He would stomp if fully healthy

[@JayJordan-vy9jj]

​@@BANGXIIIThat's bc he was alr banged up

[@1234_Flux]

Multipliers and power levels have always been stupid. SSJ4 is a strong as the writers want it to be.

[@azimuddin1890]

I’d say just about any character

[@AC57001]

ssj4 is stronger bc i like it more

[@ProfessorX-ray]

😂😂😂😂

[@MajinUltraEgo]

🤡

[@rondorock2563]

Felt 😂

[@radicaIized]

Real af

[@FounderX9]

its not

[@bigmon5757]

You know I don’t really care about the god forms vs ssj4 debate but i will say i like both forms

[@My_Master_Waves]

DBS is so inconsistent that any statements made in there doesn't mean anything 5 minutes after that statement was made. The info that we have logically says SSG gives a bigger power boost than SSJ4, but narratively SSG is shown to be just trash tier and barely even a boost past his first transformation, it's the opposite for SSJ4 narratively it's strong and gets stronger each time Goku used it.

[@darkvoidswrath958]

How does this make any sense? Isn’t it stated the Goku absorbed the power of SSG into his base form, and then afterwards (as the power of their opponents started to grow) they had SSGSS (blue form) ? Of course SGS was going to be the lesser form in comparison, but even then they used it for particular reasons such as it wasting less energy to use… How is that really a discrepancy? He grew stronger without the use of the form on a base level.

[@Winner2004]

????

[@My_Master_Waves]

@@darkvoidswrath958 SSG power in base was retconned, opponents weren't really getting much stronger. Using GOD ki meant they were tapping into SSG power but then Goku is shown transforming into SSG which shouldn't be needed since the explanation for saiyam beyong god was that it's using God Ki and it's literally SSG without transformation, if saiyan in this state tries to go ssj they would turn into SSBlue, since we see regular ssj, ssg and ssblue it means this ssg power in base is no longer a thing. Everything I said is pretty much fact and you will still find arguments supporting the opposite, am I right? That exactly why I say it's inconsistent.

[@SonZackSSJ9k]

​@@My_Master_Waves 1. Nah, it was never retconned 2. Have you seen DBS? Jiren = UI Goku >>> SSJBKKx20 Goku >>>> SSJB Goku (ToP) = Hit (Top) >>> Hit (U6 Arc) = SSJBKKx10 Goku (U6 Arc). As for the manga, SSJB Vegeta (Final Round) > SSJR Goku Black >>>>>>> SSJ Goku Black = SSJB Vegeta (1st round) >>> SSJB Vegeta (U6 Arc) > SSJG Vegeta > Hit (U6 Arc). For those who say anime scaling and manga scaling are different, prove Hit isn't the strength of his anime counterpart. 3. Saiyan Beyond God was a thing in the manga for RoF and the DBS Manga at first was the same thing but for the BoG Movie which implies they are in the same continuity. 4. Just because we see SSJG again, doesnt change the fact Goku still absorbed the initial power into Base. Also nothing you said is a fact lol.

[@NewWorldDreams47]

The GT deniers always forget that base Goku in GT is already stronger than Kid Buu. Meaning he's way more powerful than Super Goku just in base. People sleep on GT way too much 💀

[@HakumeiTenshi]

You can’t forget something that was never said.

[@Winner2004]

Base Goku is Super is also stronger than kid buu LMAO are you slow??

[@HakumeiTenshi]

@@Winner2004 Also false. No version of base Goku ever surpassed Kid Buu. There’s no source to prove otherwise

[@NewWorldDreams47]

@@HakumeiTenshi not false. General Rildo was stated by Goku to surpass Buu, and Kid Goku toyed with him in base. GT Goku is training with Uub, Kidd Buu's reincarnation 20 years after the Buu saga and fighting equally. You don't know wtf you're talking about

[@NewWorldDreams47]

@@Winner2004 no he isn't. Super is only 3 years after Buu Saga, and Goku hasn't surpassed Kid Buu in base at the beginning of the series. Later he does, but not at the start like GT Goku is.

[@koreyfulcher]

The fact that you need to use every argument available to attempt to downplay the god forms to make ssj4 even relevant in power should honestly tell you it’s not actually remotely close… As for ssjg having a smaller multiplier over time just isn’t true, the problem is that the enemies are literally just getting THAT much stronger… this has happened all through dragon ball and is what started the long since dead ssj forms aren’t multipliers arguments (which are incredibly dumb) the answer is they just don’t seem that impressive anymore due to power creep If you have a 2x multiplier and stomp someone equal to your base form the next guy comes along with a base form 3x stronger than yours would make your 2x multiplier look… weak… that’s how it’s always been

[@azimuddin1890]

I mostly agree with you.

[@koreyfulcher]

@@azimuddin1890 thanks man, just curious what parts do you disagree with?

[@azimuddin1890]

@@koreyfulcher Actually, reading your comment again, I actually agree with 100% with what you said.

[@jocoolshow]

Depends on if you’re talking about SSJ4 vs the god forms as forms specifically, or GT Goku compared to Super Goku. In most forms of modern DB media, regular SSJ4 and SSB are shown as equal, with SSJ4 having attacks that multiply his AP like KHHx10 or Dragon Fist and SSB having KKx20. Then SSJ4 as a form has 3 amped forms…Full Power SSJ4, Ultra Full Power SSJ4 and Limit Breaker. SSB has SSJBE for Vegeta, KKx20 for Goku (not really a form but treated as one), both treated as relative UI isn’t a god form as it doesn’t take god ki to be able to use but it’s been shown that Limit Break SSJ4 can take on UI Sign Now as for the GT Goku vs Super Goku debate, that’s a whole ‘nother story as their base forms have to be taken into account as well as the scaling of Toei’s continuity with the Z anime and some of the movies going into GT itself, and Super’s continuity scaling off of Dragon Ball Kai Base GT Goku has feats scaling him over SSG Goku and Beerus’ clash since even in the Z anime they had Buu saga characters that could destroy universe 7 and the Z anime/GT has higher speed scaling than DBS as even Cell Saga Base Goku crossed an infinite distance in a finite amount of time with Pikkon, and GT has on screen feats of people being faster than Instantaneous Movement from Kibito Kai etc

[@godslayerxx_idk6410]

fr bruh, i was watching the vid and paused when he tried to downplay ssg by saying kefla is faster as if thats supposed to be bad💀 and never mentions the facts that goku is still tired asf after fighting jiren

[@vladline1882]

SSJ4 is the most efficient stable form of all forms. It can get amp stronger than the regular SSJ4 itself. Heck super Saiyan 4 could go beyond and may break limits

[@crestofhonor2349]

No that would be master SSJ1. Goku was shown to do everything in SSJ1 including sleep in that form.

[@righteousone5119]

​@@crestofhonor2349Goku was once unconscious in SS4. They both have peak control. You can't get much, if any, more control than that.

[@Vynne96-jg7er]

Xeno Goku used SSJ4 Limit Breaker.

[@qh777]

I personally like the SSJ4 transformation better than the god forms. The base god form doesn't look like anything relating to Saiyans.

[@LuisFernan-zr9pg]

Because... it isn't based out from the barbaric side of saiyans? I thought it was obvious.

[@qh777]

@@LuisFernan-zr9pg I don't like the the blue hair really for SSGSS either. I like SSJ4 because it reinforces established lore with the Oozaru transformation.

[@LuisFernan-zr9pg]

@@qh777 i agree, even SSG is better than Blue, SSGSS was treated soo casually + ruined the perception of god ki completely (basically demystifying it in every sense). At least SSG was a take on SSJ4 and treated it as its own thing.

[@dontuspowerus1093]

I don't know. This requires a base to base power and let the multipliers speak. Because if you let the multipliers speak, it means you are comparing the forms themselves and not necessarily the base and the multiplier.

[@Foiiiii1]

Super Saiyan 4 just looks so damn cool. This is probably cuz I watched GT as a kid but I firmly believe it's the best design in DB.

[@keimillion]

You believe? Mf IT IS the best design in DB. Don't take it as an insult.

[@simeon8814]

Ufp Ssj4=SSB>Ssj4>Ssg and the multipliers are far bigger than what people think but for sure ssg Is below a Vegito level multiplier

[@genevievekampiire9002]

FAX

[@Zikk0_o]

SSG is above Vegito as stated by Goku himself.

[@spincycle6724]

When scaling them to Kalifla and Broly you realise 1.fusions are based on compatibility and potential both of which are very high and Kale is litreally a LSSj and in the manga was beaten by Ultimite Gohan 2.Broly was is a mutant sayian and can grow in power in seconds there's a reason most consider he has the highest potential

[@AntonPayne614-22]

Duhhhhh we been telling y’all for years as fandom it’s stronger respect it

[@jeremiahwilliams6131]

Judging by what modern dragon ball media is telling us ssj4 and blue are equal.

[@marcelousneal4641]

Exactly.

[@SonZackSSJ9k]

Nah, Most media imply SSJG >>> SSJ4, especially in Xenoverse 2 where Goku uses SSJ4 before SSJG.

[@hoothoot2112]

​@@SonZackSSJ9k really? You see SS4 standing up to SSB in pretty much every piece of official DB media involving both continuities

[@ragnarok7452]

Base CC Goku and Xeno Goku were relative in manga. And they were as well when they turned SSJ4 and SSB.

[@SonZackSSJ9k]

@ That just means the Goku with SSJ4 has a stronger base form.

[@spinothenoooob6050]

We can't use sdbh as that's just fan service. They would even make akairi broly to rival MUI, after showing that base Goku and broly are relative in power because it's cool.

[@AstonishingRedd-j9x]

Yes, because its business. Any hypothetical SSJ4 vs SSJB would be written as a draw by Toei

[@AstonishingRedd-j9x]

According to DBS Super Hero, Jiren was only slightly stronger than SSJB Goku and Vegeta. In that continuity, Ultra Instinct isn't a really a big multiplier by that logic. That puts Broly above MUI level (but only in the DBS Super Hero power scaling.) Its cool and its business.

[@raiden8991]

​@@AstonishingRedd-j9xread the Manga then you'll understand the difference between ultra instinct and normal god forms, don't just assume things.

[@crestofhonor2349]

@@raiden8991 Ultra instinct can be combined with the god forms. Goku was using UI in combination with SSJG in some of the fights

[@raiden8991]

@@crestofhonor2349 and this is why read the Manga buddy, Whis still tells Goku to use the silver haired form as a final Trump card cuz it's where he can fully use UI compared to his other forms.

[@UniVS427]

The reason people said the god forms were vastly superior than SSJ4 is because of the ritual boost Goku received in Battle of Gods. I think with all the insane power jumps in GT, SSJ4 Goku from the 100 year time skip triumphs over DBS Goku at least until he start using SSB Kaioken x20 and UI. Especially from DBS manga where the jump from SSJ3 to God (post ritual) isn't too crazy.

[@Just_nick3070]

Ssj3 to god is a huge difference.

[@gabrielvivarleiva9706]

​@@Just_nick3070 Ssj3 and Ssj4 is also a great difference

[@Just_nick3070]

@@gabrielvivarleiva9706 not relevant to my comment

[@beegpappa7900]

Ssj4 puts you at your peak so it would be superior to God and blue

[@raiden8991]

​@@beegpappa7900doesn't apply to canon knowledge.

[@Jechielwesterweele250]

They already showed us who the superior Goku is in Db Heroes, and that’s Super Goku. Idk why people still debating like this when the creators showed ya’ll the truth 🤣🤣🤣

[@davidhannum9017]

It's also a fan service series not one with reliable statements same with characters like Vegeta, king Kai and old Kai in z and super. Notice how those 3 in particular are constantly proven wrong whenever they say anything

[@nazjhirbrandon9441]

Forgot to include the fact that xeno goku has god ki and went through battle of gods, in sdbh, also tbh it's not a debate but at least you didn't say ssj4 goku beats any version of super

[@jeremymorris345]

According to interviews with the Battle of Gods character designer, Tadayoshi Yamamuro, the original concept for Super Saiyan God, had the form being more muscular, wearing a cape, and with a hairstyle in-between Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan 4. This shows that SSJ4 was in mind when creating the form. He also stated that the SSJ God was “a being that surpasses everything”. SSJ4 would be included in that. Toryima has also stated that SSJ God is a level of power that Goku couldn't achieve on his own. Unlike SSJ4, which is a form that can be achieved by a Saiyan alone as long as they have their tail. All that being said, narratively, SSJ God is meant to be more powerful than anything that came before, including SSJ4. Based on this, I think it's pretty clear that SSJ God >>> SSJ4 as a multipler. However, there is also the modern media argument, which actually has some validity. Toryima confirmed that Dragonball Z Kakarot and Online are canon / in continuity to the manga. Both of these are also canon to Xenoverse and Heroes. Toryima also approved of these. So, based on Toryima's own word, the games are canon as crazy as it sounds. Which means the ridiculous scaling is canon. However, even though Xenoverse and Heroes are canon to Kakarot. Toryima himself never said they were canon, the creators of the game said it was canon. Toryima only said that he approved of there creation. So it's a weird limbo.

[@Rafael-rn6hn]

Your arguments boil down to it was the author's intention to make SSG stronger than SSJ4, which begs the question of how you can read the mind of several authors, each with their own ideas and each changing their mind (or having no real clear mind) as is often the case in Super (see all "retcons" or simply inconsistencies in the story).

[@jeremymorris345]

@@Rafael-rn6hn It's not an assumption when it's a flat-out stated "Stronger than everything before", which includes SSJ4, which they themselves acknowledge.

[@Rafael-rn6hn]

@@jeremymorris345 "It's flat-out stated"? You're just interpreting the words in the way you prefer, while ignoring all other hundreds of ways to take it.

[@jeremymorris345]

@@Rafael-rn6hn In what other way are you supposed to interpret "Stronger then everything that came before"?

[@AstonishingRedd-j9x]

​@@jeremymorris345SSJ4 was not considered part of the continuity when SSJ God was discussed. Also, the "stronger than anything before" line is a joke because the fusion multiplier is bigger than SSJ God multiplier. Base Gogeta is stronger than SSJB Goku, which may be 50x stronger than SSJ God Goku. In other words, the Vegito that fought Buu is likely stronger than SSJ God or SSJB Goku. In base form

[@Shadowrulzalways]

The franchise isn’t trying to sell “toys”. It’s just making fan service. That’s it. In Japan, 90% of Dragon Ball figures are S.H. Figurarts or statues which are for 15+ collectors.

[@BANGXIII]

I think goku accessing magic(darkchi) in daima is going to explain ssj4 properly turning into a canon demon form which could match or surpass godforms. Also goku hasnt absorbed god into his base which is something they may play on in the future for the manga.

[@RolandJones-bv5pt]

Oooo,I like that idea🤔

[@yanim8s350]

And it may be a one time form which would explain why Goku wouldn't have it after daima

[@nickalas666]

so why didn't he use it in the battler of gods?

[@LuisFernan-zr9pg]

Idk how is magic of all things gonna explain ssj4, neither what makes people think that it will appear, or how they focus on "canon" rather than "continuity", or how on earth will match or surpass godforms, or why they still think BoG happened in daima. Just food for thought.

[@DR-ge4wi]

I'm personally a pretty big fan of the Blue form and just feel like it's portayl and treatment of the form was lacking. It makes sense for it and even ssj god to be stronger than ssj4. Just far bigger gap on ssj3 compared to ssj4's.

[@abdelarch8038]

That’s limit breaker, which is SSJ4 with a mini ritual applied to give them god ki. It’s also a much older and more experienced Goku using the form. A while back SSJ4 Xeno Goku was even with SSB Goku despite the age and experience gap.

[@beegpappa7900]

Not a mini ritual, the same ritual with the same amount of Saiyans. Look it up.

[@vorteilfan4132]

SSJ4LB dont have god ki 💀💀💀

[@vorteilfan4132]

In the manga itself it was stated that this is the evolution of FPSSJ4 and the maximum amount of Ki

[@raiden8991]

​@@vorteilfan4132xeno Goku does have god ki though cuz he did go god before going down his own path.

[@Naru_kek]

Okay I gave a lot of negative things to say about this video so I'll just dump a huge list. Good luck to everyone reading this. GT isn't canon to the DB timeline. You can't make a narrative argument about SSJ4 automatically being stronger than SS God. Saying Base GT Goku being stronger than Super Goku is irrelevant as well. The creation of DBS outright contradicts GT's storytelling. Powerscaling both Gokus should be done in their own respective timelines, OVA Gokus as well. Destroying things isn't exactly equal to power levels. First off, we should just ignore power levels past the Frieza Saga since they go massively above millions (and they're irrelevant anyway). But the main point is, Goku does cool shit to sell the manga and some merch. You could say Goku having trouble lifting up a building in GT means he's weak af, but no. This moment makes Goku looks cool while saving some innocent, typical hero stuff. Destroying Universe 7 in God form is the same, it's just cool to see. Destructive feats are just there to sell the manga and some merch, and shouldn't really be used as a "serious" feat for powerscaling. Goku not even thinking that a hypothetical "BOG Vegeto" could beat Beerus just means that, for Goku, their current powers weren't enough. Whether or not it's an anime only statement, it shows that SS God WAS their only hope, as it vastly surpassed Goku's expectations for a power level (even stating it's "something else entirely"). Also, saying that a Blue Fusion still wouldn't beat Beerus is irrelevant to BOG's plot and SS God's strength, as Blue didn't even exist yet and Goku couldn't take that into fact (let's not forget the Beerus statement fighting at 70% power being retconned!) Yes, SS God is FACTUALLY a huge multiplier. The form being shown to be "weak" compared to future enemies just means that the enemies are stronger/smarter than before (Hit and Granolah hitting vital points -> bypassing the durability). Using DB Heroes as a source is irrelevant. Just like the destructive feats, Heroes' sole purpose is merchandise and literally an ADVERTISEMENT FOR A GAME. The fact Black goes "Rosé SSJ3" while Rosé is just Black's version of Blue says a lot. (Especially since the manga shows Black going normal SSJ, and a "SS Blue 2/3" just doesn't exist.) Base Kefla matching God Goku isn't equal to a generic "fusion Vs God form". The U6 Saiyans have much more potential than the U7 Saiyans, shown by how they mastered SSJ1 and unlocked SSJ2 in mere minutes (while Gohan being a potential monster, unlocked SSJ2 in extreme conditions). Add onto that, the terrible DBS powerscaling that just flat out horrible and you get #17 being Blue level... In that scenario, it was SPECIFICALLY Base Kefla that was stronger than God Goku SPECIFICALLY. Ikari Broly is the same thing. Broly has stupidly high potential, and that allowed him to surpass God level power in mere minutes. He went from Base Vegeta level to God Goku level thanks to his potential, not JUST his Ikari form. SSJ Broly with Ikari would be more like the "canon SSJ4" in that case but it's irrelevant here. SS God's multiplier has to be way higher than any other multiplier past the Buu Saga. SS God having a multiplier that's just around 10-20x than SSJ3 is just stupid, otherwise that hypothetical "BOG Vegeto" would be enough for Beerus, and he isn't. As for Blue's multiplier, while it's unknown, it isn't really stated as something other than "SSJ stacked over God" (and Blue IS shown to be way stronger than God several times). The mastered Blue in the Black Arc could be a "Blue grade 4" like in the Cell games. (Notice the lack of aura and cleaner hair colour?) Narratively comparing GT to Super, like I said, is pointless. Not only Toriyama outright stated that he didn't like GT, but comparing Goku's growth throughout GT and Super is dumb. It's just the generic "Shonen formula" to get your hero stronger. Get a cool power, make a stronger enemy to showcase said power, give your hero a better and cooler power. The similarities basically end there. Especially when Beerus is directly stated several times to be U7's number one fighter, while Baby was far outclassed by Super 17, the Shadow dragons, Omega and literally Goku right after. Nice coincidence that's for sure, but that's all. Daima doesn't have any reason to connect to GT, as it was stated to happen after the Buu Saga and before Super. If Daima does end up being canon, it'll just connect back to Super seamlessly. Introducing SSJ4, whether or not it's "demon realm only" or something, would be pointless and add onto the lore for no good reason. Though a nice easter egg or reference could be made I agree. Finally, ULTRA INSTINCT FACTUALLY FAR OUTCLASSES BLUE! Jiren was casually fighting a Blue Kaioken x20 Goku without breaking a sweat. UI Omen managed to make Goku fight Jiren on somewhat equal footing, AND MUI BASICALLY BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF JIREN BOTH IN ANIME AND MANGA. Even better, Moro (stated to be Goku's strongest adversary yet > stronger than Jiren) was toying around with a Blue Evolution Vegeta (stronger than base Blue). Guess what? Perfected MUI Goku basically one shots a "MUI absorbed" Moro. There's no debate, UI is factually dozens of times above Blue.

[@DatsRandom]

All roads lead to SSJ 4 🤫

[@Poseidon-P]

no

[@HisNameIsEL]

💯

[@stephorelse]

Just use the basic powerscalers rhetoric for EVERYTHING : which happened last ? And for the Canon riders : seems likes movies and GT sell and hype way more than Crayola Super Saiyan

[@733ism]

If you were to powerscale by the Dragon Ball timeline then yes SSJ4 > Golden Great Ape > God Forms > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ > Base Form

[@Just_nick3070]

You can't because they aren't the same timeline

[@yanim8s350]

​@@Just_nick3070 but is further down the line so it still applies because super isn't even at end of z yet

[@yanim8s350]

​@@Just_nick3070 so he has more experience than super goku

[@nickalas666]

no

[@Just_nick3070]

@@yanim8s350 Different continuity.

[@WildWombats]

Could easily be explained why Super didn't show it as the fact that Daima could have SS4 only in the Demon Realm and it's unlocked then. However, it could be explained that during Super, they weren't able to unlock it because they were no longer in the demon realm. However, as time moved on, eventually they manage to re-awaken it. Much like Goku was able to go SS3 after learning it in the Other world, Goku could learn SS4 in Demon Realm but unlike other world, since he didn't have as much time to master it, needed more time to truly awaken it once he was back in the normal world.

[@nickalas666]

really that make sense to you?then why didn't he ask shenron for that power back during battle of gods?

[@WildWombats]

@@nickalas666 Think about that for just a second lol. I could come up with multiple reasons. First of all, Goku refuses to ever just ask for a power up like that. He will always want to earn it. Secondly, Shenron's powers are limited, contrary to "grant any wish" he does have limitations. For the same reason they couldn't just "wish" Frieza away, you generally can't wish to be the strongest or unlock forms. Shenron's limitations could easily explain that. Also, connecting the logic from the newly released Daima, they explicitly stated Shenron used white or "good" magic while their dragon balls used bad magic and since the Demon World is needed to unlock SS4, it could easily be explained that Shenron isn't able to use the "bad magic" that the Demon Realm has to unlock it. So there's just a few reasons, but even if he was able to, Goku would never just wish for strength even if the universe depended on it.

[@AxisChurchDevotee]

Alternatively at the end of daima everyone might (and probably will) get memory wiped since otherwise it'll make the future trunks saga's retcom of the potara earrings a plot hole.

[@nickalas666]

@@AxisChurchDevotee then what would be the point of daima?

[@WildWombats]

@@nickalas666 Would my other points not address that? Shenron has limitations, Daima specifically specified their realm uses dark magic and Shenron is White magic, and they don't mix. It could be a physical limitation put on Shenron, both in the sense he can't grant powers above his own and in the sense that the magic it would require is dark magic which Shenron doesn't use.

[@OneWingedAngel849]

Super Saiyan 4 is easily more powerful and here's why. Freiza during Ressurection of F arc blew up the planet killing SSB Vegeta while SSJ 4 Goku is tanking Revenge death ball without so much as a scratch which is easily beyond planet level destructive power. The idea of universe shattering clashes didn't exist during GT's time because they didn't come up with that idea yet but it was convenient in Super to distinguish between regular and God power.

[@Firestarter9]

You think blowing up a planet on the sly is the same as tanking an energy blast? What are you smoking? 😅

[@OneWingedAngel849]

@@Firestarter9 What are you on is the better question. Freiza didn't even touch Vegeta he attacked the planet and that level of attack was Namek saga level. Revenge death ball hit Goku directly twice and that was easily way more powerful than Kid Buu's planet Burst so you need to sober up.

[@InfernoCleric384]

Characters are far beyond planet-level by both Super and GT. Freeza's blast destroys the planet, meaning no air.

[@OneWingedAngel849]

@@InfernoCleric384 Right he just flat lined the second the air evaporated SSJ 4 wouldn't have died to that though.

[@Firestarter9]

@OneWingedAngel849 You just validated my point. You said: " Freiza didn't even touch Vegeta he attacked the planet." Only Frieza and Cell have the ability to survive in space. Try to know what you are talking about before writing 😁

[@josephmartinez7961]

Ssj4 has been stronger than god forms

[@godslayer8894]

Never has been Never will be

[@spinothenoooob6050]

Well the base Vegeta to SSG Vegeta is 10x argument is bad cause broly took time to reach that level which implies he was getting stronger over time. You don't need time to get stronger through an amp, like ssj is not like slowly starting from base to 50x base. It just directly drops you 50x stronger than base. So, base broly got stronger.😊😊😊

[@AstonishingRedd-j9x]

Its because the writing rarely shows SSJ as a 50x multiplier. Because fight scenes in Dragon Ball prioritize looking cool over mathematical scaling

[@extremelegendsupreme4596]

@@AstonishingRedd-j9xit’s literally shown in the broly movie since ssj broly > ikari broly and ikari=oozaru=10x

[@Marco-qy6bm]

Ssj4 being calked at over 1000000 times multiplier: Golden ozaru baby got a multiplier thousands of times stronger than normal, I don’t remember the calcs, but instead of the ozaru being a multiplier of 10 it was 10k-100k multiplier, ssj4 made a goku that was losing against pre ozaru baby badly beat a g ozaru baby, wasn’t even close.

[@godoffury9170]

God forms got wanked but so did the super saiyan 4 form, some madman said 400,000x ssj3 😂

[@ryanjagpal123]

Yeah I though it was like 10x

[@gokuhaasa]

pretty sure i know the vid your talking about ,i think he said 400k times base not ssj3 tho either way its still huge

[@righteousone5119]

​@@ryanjagpal123it's not even possible for it to be just 10x SS3. It'd have to be atleast 32x

[@SleepingSoulK]

I mean it’s not wrong nor right because Toriyama literally states ever form after the namek saga mathematically cannot be calculated

[@ryanjagpal123]

@@righteousone5119 Why would it not be possible for 10x but for 32x it is?

[@spritvio639]

If you go by the Toei continuity then SSJ4 does have an argument for being stronger than God and Blue in that universe. Its been confirmed multiple times in official media like Chouzenshuu 4: Dragon Ball Super Encyclopedia and Shueisha's official timeline that BOG and ROF happened in the GT timeline.

[@crestofhonor2349]

Yeah and that makes no sense. Shueisha has no clue what they're talking about including both BOG and ROF in the GT timeline. That's just as bad as including the DBZ movies before BOG into GT as none of them even make sense either to take place story wise

[@Edelweiss1102]

@@crestofhonor2349 This. I also feel like it's a pure labeling thing. Remember that the movies BOG and ROF were still branded as Dragonball Z, it wasn't officially called Super until the series, which came out after ROF. And technically Broly was the first movie officially labeled as a DBS movie. Thus, if we go strictly by the labeling, counting BOG and ROF as part of the Z story, and by that both GT and Super are direct continuations of Z, it does make sense to include BOG and ROF in the GT timeline. But I can guarantee you that absolutely nobody was thinking about continuity or power levels when making these timelines.

[@joseurbina3835]

That was only in the Renaissance Era of Dragon Ball Z's Resurgence back in 2008 to 2015, everything in the Dragon Ball Canon would eventually Change until 2016 where "Super" Debuted and finally Retconning "GT" out from Continuity, So yeah, don't Believe everything of what Toei or Shueisha stated, they are not always Reliable, (especially about Shueisha, they're nothing but the E.A. of Japanese Magazine Companies).

[@Ultriac301]

Only the Z movies ( pre- Toriyama ) are canon to GT! Final Form Cooler made a cameo and Goku could use Dragon Fist.

[@FictionalScholar07]

Bro please make a video on gas vs Goku, Vegeta and Gohan. Please. Has Goku surpassed Gas after training or not. Waiting for this.

[@Baselinehangtime8]

Not sure why anyone thinks god and especially the blue and instinct forms which scale above a 13 multiversal infinitely spreading timeline macrocosm like infinite zamasu, would be weaker than or rival ssj4 which only has 1 macrocosm it has scaled above along with omega

[@alsimmonshellspawn6021]

Wrong because ssj4 belongs to the old Z movies verse where characters are much stronger than the manga continuity also ssj3 is way above macrocosm

[@BANGXIII]

@@alsimmonshellspawn6021 Not to mention just by existing omega threatened the entire macrocosm. Which would scale wayy over unsycned godgoku and beerus punches while the feat is impressive Omega does the same just by EXISTING in the universe.

[@fatdurk7934]

@@BANGXIIIhe was doing his overtime. What goku did was instantly.

[@MasterCombatant]

@@alsimmonshellspawn6021SSJ3 has absolutely zero macrocasm feats(accept for 1 which was in the anime, and even then, it was still a shared feat with Kid Buu)

[@ojpickle5923]

​@@alsimmonshellspawn6021 The movies are not connected to the anime. Cooler appearing in GT doesn't mean it's the same cooler from the movie. The meta cooler movie and many other movies literally can't fit into the main timeline due to the many contradictions. Garlic JR is the only movie connected to the anime due to its filler arc

[@Unkuttkokk]

It is , omega is stated to be the final boss of all bosses. Bro was so strong fusion just couldn't get it done. Earth shenron fused himself into goku and gave him the strength to beat omega with the spirit bomb.

[@charzanboo9940]

SSJ4 Goku struggled to lift a city while God Goku almost destroyed half a macrocosm...enuff said.

[@chrishook1815]

That's with the help of Beerus as Goku said it took 3 punches just to match Beerus and negate his punch. So in the end god Goku never showed a macrocasmic feat alone

[@davincameron7627]

​@@chrishook1815 Bro is joking.

[@MajinUltraEgo]

​@@chrishook1815GT fan in denial 😂 It was confirmed they were hitting each other with the same force, otherwise Goku would have been overtaken or outright defeated

[@rifarira9160]

@@chrishook1815 Sooo... still universal feats regardless?

[@dantheman5052]

By yo logic super Goku ain't even Frieza soldier level for getting one tapped by him 😂😂😂

[@bidemi_ani]

There is absolutely no debate here…..they’re gods now and their ki can’t be sensed

[@jg5004]

God waaaaaaay out scales GT in terms of power and multiplier.

[@alsimmonshellspawn6021]

No it doesn't end of GT goku destroy super

[@travis1126]

Gt Goku humiliates Super

[@MasterCombatant]

@@alsimmonshellspawn6021end of GT Goku has no feats or statements at all

[@alsimmonshellspawn6021]

@MasterCombatant the end of gt kid goku became immortal has immeasurable speed immunity and boundless power

[@MasterCombatant]

@ immortality means nothing in over half of the scenarios that you could put in. Deadpool is immortal, but does he beat Odin or Superman? Absolutely not. When was it stated that GT Goku was immune to immeasurable speed? And since when did he have boundless power?

[@aaronhall4039]

It’s not just that is more aggressive just more genuine form meaning basically like Cells final form Or frieza final form were he doesn’t have to power down he can stay like that forever or a true saiyan Ki burst transformation

[@SupremeKey216]

Didn’t the GT files lowkey state that golden great ape was 10,000x ssj3 I forgot 🤔 super baby 2 had the same multiplier as super saiyan 3 or was it base ?, I forgot and it was stated that bulma hit baby with blutz waves that was 1000x more than the normal amount of a regular great ape which is a 10x multiplier from base ?

[@chaoticdragons9990]

People seem to forget that power is pointless if you don't have the stamina to back it up and dragon ball uses strategies to win.

[@Rizzal6a6y]

You forgot the last Ssj4 form. The one he got fighting Synn

[@claudhopper9003]

GOLD SSJ6 AF GOKU VS GOLD SSJ6 AF VEGETA🎉🎉🎉😮😮😮😊😊😊😁😁😁👍👍👍

[@tyrannotherium7873]

Who knows what the multiplier is for the god forms and ssj4

[@righteousone5119]

I think the most fair thing to do is to make a power card series like you did for Super, but for GT.

[@AceDestro]

I've always thought of SSJ4 as a x10 multiplier from base SSJ, and the reason it's so much better than SSJ3 in GT is because it's not nearly as draining to use AND gives him his adult body.

[@Spatgoober]

Its 10x ssj3

[@righteousone5119]

​@@SpatgooberI get 10x is a huge boost, but just using domination multipliers, it HAS to be significantly higher than 10x SS3. Super Baby 1 was atleast 2x stronger than SS3 Goku, Super Baby 2 was 4x stronger than Super Baby 1 (since Super Baby 1 is the SS2 version of Baby Vegeta, and Super Baby 2 is the SS3 version of Baby Vegeta), Super Baby 2 with the Revenge Death Ball was likely atleast a 2x amp, and SS4 Goku tanked that Revenge Death Ball like it was nothing, making him atleast 2 times stronger than the Revenge Death Ball, so SS4 Goku HAS TO BE ATLEAST 32x stronger than he was as a SS3, and that's at a lowball, and before he became a Full Power SS4 or Ultra Full Power SS4.

[@BRUHVADO]

SSJ4 should have been the saiyan god form

[@filmgoblin5016]

In a way it technically is

[@PetarBladeStrok]

FFXIV OST? You play FFXIV?! Shadowbringers and Endwalker are one of the best stories of all time!

[@alaminior]

It would be simpler if we just consider ss4 as super Saiyan ozaru

[@MUISHAD172]

Yall forget that in Xenoverse 2 in a very specific mission, Goku and Vegeta use Super Saiyan 4 before going Blue. Super Saiyan Blue is simply naturally stronger, 4 may have primal power of Saiyans and whatnot but it will never reach the realm of the Gods, I say this because Super Saiyan God would simply get stronger if Dbs Goku were to achieve 4, the God forms caused him to break through his mortal limits, and by adding a higher mortal limit he will simply power up the God form just like that.

[@ay00wtf]

The ten times multiplier is just what people went with because that’s what vegeta said it was when he went great ape back in Z saiyan saga we don’t really know what the multiplier is

[@mythologiasend3264]

I think SSJ4 has no multiplier. Its like Ultimate Gohan.

[@azimuddin1890]

I still don’t know how that works. The form has its limits. To scale Gokou couldn’t beat Bebi Vegeta as Super Saiyajin 3, but could beat Bebi as a Golden Oozaru, but when Gokou went Super Saiyajin 4 he got even stronger, but Bebi also went Golden Oozaru and both were evenly matched at that point. Gokou Super Saiyajin 3 - 1 Super Bebi 2 - 8 Gokou Golden Oozaru - 16 Golden Oozaru Bebi - 128 Super Saiyajin 4 Gokou - 128 Gokou as Super Saiyajin 4 couldn’t even scratch 1 Star Dragon (Syn Shenlong), even with a x10 Kamehameha Super Saiyajin 4 Gokou’s x10 Kamehameha - 1,280 1 Star Dragon - 2,560 Ultra Full-Power Super Saiyajin 4 Gokou - 5,120 Super 1 Star Dragon (Omega Shenlong) - 25,600 So I disagree

[@righteousone5119]

​@@azimuddin1890he didn't say that it didn't have limits, just that it doesn't have a set multiplier. You can't really calculate Gohan's Ultimate form because it fluctuates over time. Same with SS4, along with the fact that SS4 has the ability to absorb other people's ki and permanently become stronger from it.

[@supersaiyanprimalbroly31]

The manga is stated to be a different timeline then the anime. So to try to make a video about power scaling you can only use one not both. And it’s only fair you use the anime since there is more to work with in terms of feats.

[@banjo9158]

SSGod: 6x SS3 Goku Golden Oozaru: 10x SS3 Goku Super Saiyan 4: 10x Golden Oozaru Super Saiyan Blue: 50x SSGod Ultra Instinct sign: 3x SSBlue + Kaioken 20x Mastered Ultra Instinct: 2x UI Sign Super Saiyan 4 Full Power: Equivalent of the Ultimat Form from Gohan, push the power of an individual to it's limits. it would automatically have a higher multiplier than anything, cause it give you the max power a saiyan can get.

[@Marisa_arts]

Kamehameha is 2-3x increase. Kaioken x10 Kamehameha is 20-30x increase. x10 Kamehameha is 10x increase.

[@stevejamieson8468]

I want to see SSJ4 infused with god ki and would not be that hard. Simply get a Saiyan to go SSJ4 and then perform the SSJ god ritual on them.

[@kctr_ch7021]

DBS take place before end of Z and GT i think we might be able to see SSJ4 somehow and they might find the way to erase these Godly form

[@kinglegault]

I think its the strongest cause it completes the homage to Sun wukan the monkey King. Its comes across as final evolution of the Saiyan

[@HisNameIsEL]

Ima be honest Super 17 is basically the most powerful DB character if we aren’t looking Zeno and the angels. Because S17 basically instantly starts getting more powerful absorbing the opponents ki. Obviously anyone fighting him including Beerus, wouldn’t know his secret until it’s too late. Perhaps a Haki would work but 🤷🏾‍♂️ S17 would DOMINATE in ToP

[@gianvittoriomarti9393]

Every DB villain had that "element" that made him: "the most powerful DB character" at some moments: Cell had the DNA and Techniques of the STRONGEST warriors ever existed! Frieza was the emperor of the Universe! Majin Bu was a Demon! Every Villain is the strongest until he gets defeated, and a stronger villain appears after him!

[@loth-alda]

Beerus has another form, remember when Toppo when GOD? And some symbols started to appear on his chest? I believe Beerus has hidden form just like that. LET ME COOK

[@nguoisaohoa6410]

Lets not forgot broly base were weaker than goku n vegeta but with ozaru power humanoid he on pair with ssjg n ssjb like what the point of those fancy color change while ssj4 make user look completly different n increased physic body

[@newberryanimation6213]

Goku before getting 4 right after getting away from baby shattered and destroyed a dimension that's beyond space and time. Before you ask they where destroying the boardgames to have goku walk that same dimension forever. Not the dimension itself. It's an infinite sized realm that goku destroyed making him omnipotent. Ultra instinct shook the world void making him weaker because he coulded one shot it in base like gt did.

[@Zikk0_o]

GT has no equivalent feats comparable to Super. SSJ4 is not even close to SSG.

[@DarkYTXEditz]

SSJ4 is objectively stronger due to all Feats in End of Z, The Movies and 100 Year Time skip and also the Form works like Gohan's Ultimate Form, it grows over time and the more bloodwaves you absorb but some Super Fans dismiss this completely and like to downscale is, no disrespect btw

[@kevinosi6850]

I've seen a bunch of people saying this and no one specify anything. Is time for you to start doing it because it's not looking good as it is.

[@crestofhonor2349]

The DBZ movies cannot take place in GT. Also the 100 year time skip has no feats at all and therefore is impossible to scale anything based off that

[@kevinosi6850]

@@crestofhonor2349 I don't understand why people keep saying that. It's impossible for me too to believe that it's impossible to make them take place in Gt.

[@DarkYTXEditz]

@@crestofhonor2349 Have you watched the Super 17 Arc literally every Movie Character appeared

[@crestofhonor2349]

@@DarkYTXEditz That doesn't make them canon to the series. The movies cannot happen as they are actually impossible to happen without causing multiple contradictions to the plot of DBZ, whether it be the manga or the anime with all it's filler. The movies aren't canon and can't be canon in the slightest

[@InfiniteMind9]

Ssj4 competed on par with UI . What is wrong with yall ???

[@godslayer8894]

That isn't canon lamo that is Heroes you never take anything seriously from Heroes

[@HisNameIsEL]

Yes, I’ve been saying this since forever. SSJ4 is stronger, Blue was only made to sell more merchandise and make more money hence why we got God form and blue god form. SSJ4 goes back to its roots along with the progression of Goku’s character. Add in the fact that Blue has taken so many L’s that SSJ4 will NOT take lol. My guy Goku in super got grappled and went back to base in the ToP 😂 come on now lmao

[@godslayer8894]

Gt is nothing compared too super stop with this crap lmao

[@tyrannotherium7873]

Ssj4 goku would win against bog goku however, as a multiplier, I do believe that the God forms probably have more higher multipliers then ssj4 though and yeah, the whole clash fists thing the animators didn’t have that back then

[@Zikk0_o]

lol, SSJ4 has not feats comparable to SSG.

[@tyrannotherium7873]

@ are you sure about that?

[@Zikk0_o]

@@tyrannotherium7873 Show me SSJ4 feat that rivals almost destroying the universe like SSG did when clashing with Beerus.

[@tyrannotherium7873]

@ I mean ssj 4 lose too ice shenron a little bit, but then he adapted to avoid the technique heat, absorbed baby revenge death ball which we never seen Goku do that before also ssj god runs out of stamina

[@Zikk0_o]

@@tyrannotherium7873 SSG doesn't have stamina issues, that's SSB. Goku always adapts to his fights that a character trait not a power from any form. Again, SSJ4 doesn't have any feat comparable to almost destroying the universe when fighting Beerus.

[@leannestewart7215]

SSJ 4 is way higher than 10x as it is stronger than SSJ Blue

[@crestofhonor2349]

It isn't stronger nor has it ever been implied that way. Any showcases between the two forms is pure marketing as SSJB represents Super and SSJ4 represents GT

[@leannestewart7215]

@@crestofhonor2349why do you think special attacks in DBZ increased your power level? It is because it is more concentrated, and SS4 is a compressed version of golden great ape so the power is more concentrated both SS4 and SSB can destroy the universe but SS4 is likely more than 50x over SSG which SSB is only 50 times or less than SSG so yeah that’s my reasoning

[@Zavorra-ym2sd]

Ssj4 and god are only as strong as the writers decide them to be because everyone and everything could scale against goku and vegeta even in their god forms

[@TheEntertainmentKnight]

Ultra instinct is far stronger than Super Saiyan blue there is no comparison

[@crestofhonor2349]

It can also be stacked with SSJG in th emanga too

[@Nathan24634]

@@crestofhonor2349 eh sorta the technique can be stacked but from what I recall it doesn't give an outright power boost meaning if you are already beating ssj goku him using the aspects of uo in it just closes the gap and makes it harder to hit him he doesn't hit any harder though

[@nathanlich9812]

Hey what music you got playing?

[@RevoluShane]

Halusatwin

[@Usiic]

God forms are (no time to train? Here you go.)

[@Unknownblackman-d8c]

Bro ssj4 still uses numbers for power level god forms are in the infinite power level”s

[@ianbrink4487]

I guess kefla has infinite power levels?

[@anubisgravatate7544]

It's years in the future and goten and trunks are adults while in super they were kids ..

[@jordanglasper1064]

You just confuse a lot of fans. Because you made statements that literally contradict DB Super Anime. Also you don’t have a good concept on the aspect of power levels and multipliers in which how strong which form or transformation genuinely is when it comes to some of them not all of them. You do know some of these things but you don’t know when it comes to the transformations are speaking on that are most important. In DBZ Kai anime and DBZ manga Goku stated the SSJ3 multiplier is like having 3 Super Saiyan 2’s. 100+100+100 = 300x. This means Super Saiyan 3 is 300x Maximum Multiplier. Not 400x. How many fans actually caught that? Listen to the anime DBZ Kai and the manga DBZ, not The Daizenshuu 7. The fusion multiplier where it be by the Patara earrings or the fusion dance. Have the same increase. Fans keep on trying to state the opposite it’s not true it is the same increase no matter what. And the fusion multiply whichever the form it is is not even a 10 times multiplier. It is simply combining the maximum power level of the two fighters. To make that a base level the fusion warrior in his base form. And then if they can go super Saiyan on top of that. So fusions multiplier is not as high as most fans speculate or believe it to be. It’s anywhere from two times greater to nine times greater or seven times greater it within that range but no more. Super Saiyan God, is a 1,000x Multiplier @ bare minimum. It is 1,200x Maximum Multiplier. This immediately puts to rest any type of conversation or fans are trying to speculate that fusion is greater than God forms. I can understand I found wanted to dispute this to be the truth, if a side character or another character who has not experienced these power ups said this for beta. But this is not a side character or an unknown character this is the main character Goku. So when he says something it should be taken for face value and not misinterpreted disregarded or change to fit the narrative that the fan wants to feel based on how strong this form is verses that form. Goku knows how strong the Patara fusion is, and based on a glimpse of power the Lord Beerus completely dominated him with. Goku Himself made a small power steel analysis and understood no form of fusion with ever be a strong enough to come back a heavily heavily heavily suppressed lord Beerus. Make no mistake the point of this conversation is still to show the superiority of SSJ4. But there are other things that’s going wrong. If you notice the KZbinr is down stealing the god forms in order to upscale super sand for. And that is wrong. Super Saiyan four stand the test of time then and now. The god worms and super Saiyan for our comparative even though SHJ for it takes to win. But the God Fort can’t beat them based upon who’s base form is stronger. Many times will get a lot of these power Steelers messed up is that they just keep saying times the base times the base X amount of numbers time is the base. Wrong it is the maximum power level of a saying which is multiplied from the Ozora. Before they had transformation it was only the base form so they could only get stronger in their base one of the Ozarks new transformation multiply the maximum power level of their basement. It’s not the best power that is only multiply it is the transform state each Saiyan has attained in order to get to a higher level of power. Allow me to thoroughly explain the power level hierarchy. Also it is a misconception that super Saiyan four has a higher multiplier than the golden Ozora. Super Saiyan four is a digression of that power it is a weaker level. The Golden Oozaru just as the regular Ozora is the end result. What the in between stages is SSJ 1234. Oozaru 10x Multiplier. Super Saiyan, 50x Multiplier. Super Saiyan 2, 100x Multiplier. Super Saiyan 3, 300x Multiplier. Super Saiyan God, 1,000x Min Multiplier, 1,200x Max Multiplier. Super Saiyan Blue 2,000x Min Multiplier, 3,000x Max Multiplier. Super Saiyan 4, 2,000x Min Multiplier, 4,000x Max Multiplier. Super Saiyan 4 Limit Breaker, 8,000x - 80,000. Ultra Instinct Omen/ Mastered, 10,000 Min Multipler, 100,000x Max Multiplier. As you can see whether it is a godly form or not, the multipliers continue to get massively higher. The reason for this is because they must get hired an order for that transformation to pee in a higher realm of power. Also blue is not 50 times stronger than red, it is massively higher. The reason why the Anime made that connection or said something like oh going blue is like going super Saiyan, it was showing one state as far beyond the other. It was not meant to take it literally in the form of multipliers. That’s basic. It would prove these God wants to be inferior because they only attain a multiplier equal to transform states that are nowhere near levels of gods of destruction or angels. As you can see the same God forms and super Saiyan four are relative to each other. Even though ultimately super Saiyan four has a 1000 times multiplier are higher than the blue god form. That when it comes to ultra instinct omen/master, the maximum multiplier represents the state of being in Mastered Boulder Instinct Hwy Perfect Gulch Instinct. Do you have a woman, then you have mastered, then you have perfected. These are higher states of divinity/angelic power. So this is the pencil between the difference of each form in ultra instinct. This also means SSJ4 limit breaker potentially has the same potential somewhat as ultra instinct. It’s not equal it’s not as strong but it’s in the ballpark range. Can’t compete and that’s what’s most important.

[@JustRichGatesTv]

🔥🔥🔥🔥🤧

[@demariw1004]

This was already confirmed in the Bandai power rank stickers years ago ssj blue (8200) ssj4 (8300)

[@righteousone5119]

DBS and GT's power scaling are parallel. First-time SS4 Goku is relative to SSG from BoG, USFPS4 Goku from the Shadow Dragon Arc is strong enough to give Goku Black Arc or T.O.P SSB Goku a run for his money.

[@unknown6394]

*I HAVE EXPLANATION* _i think we all can imagine DBS power scaling so i will describe only GT_ ↓ *GT Goku base form is stronger than DBZ Ssj3 or perhaps DBS Ssj3* _←explanation down below ↓_ *General Rilldo Arc* 🗣️Goku say : _Pan, let grandpa handle this, this guy is even stronger than Majin Buu_ *General Rilldo is stronger than Majin Buu but Goku fought him with his base form* ↑ As we know the situation of Ssj3 vs Kid Buu final fight That proof that GT Goku base form is intense strong _That mean atleast his Ssj2 or 3 could keep up with SSG_ If we compare ssj2 and 3, we simply know 3 is stronger But if we compare Ssj3 and 4, Ssj4 is not just stronger it's way beyond And this Ssj 4 can atleast keep up with Blue ____________________ But SUPER Goku base form also getting stronger when he fought Beerus We know that he absorbed godly ki and his body learn how to fight like a god without transform? But also in GT, after General Rilldo Arc Goku also getting stronger by doing the ritual 2 times And that time Trunks Goten Pan Gohan all of them are way older than super I think we all can agree they are way stronger than DBS ritual moment And they transfer energy to Goku *GT GOKU BASE FORM BONUS +* 1. He punch Super 17 all over the other side of the world_ 2. He playing fun with Cell and Freiza and took them down with their won attack_ *I'm not GT fan* *I described only about GT just because we all can imagine DBS power scaling* *But i also enjoyed GT much as i enjoyed other Dragon Balls*

[@Nathan24634]

@@unknown6394 one thing while I won't say rildo being stronger than kid Buu is inaccurate I think it's the lowest the scale can go and it's more accurate to be referring to bubba's a whole including buuhan meaning base gt Goku scales anywhere from base vegito to ssj vegito and then he gets up to 50 times stronger when he gets back to earth gains ssj4 which i have it at around 64 times stronger than ssj3 or 128 times stronger Goku Then gets bare minimum up to 64 times stronger heading into his fight against super 17 then assuming no other increases his ssj4 power in the super 17 arc becomes his new base by the time he fights Nova shenron Sorry for the rant just wanted to provide my own scaling to gt at least multiplier and inverse wise

[@anhtuanhuynh8640]

Hãy tưởng tượng nếu Goku GT có Super Saiyan God thì Super Saiyan 4 sẽ mạnh hơn gấp 10 Super Saiyan God lần nữa từ ×20000 lần power > ×200000 lần power, về bản chất Super Saiyan 4 là việc hóa Oruzu, và Oruzu không hề xung đột giữa Super Saiyan và Super Saiyan God, vì 3 dạng điều là riêng biệt, hãy tưởng tượng Goku hóa Super Saiyan Blue và hóa Oruzu sức mạnh ×10 lần vì vậy Super Saiyan 4 luôn mạnh hơn tất cả dạng của Goku hơn 10 lần, nhưng rất tiếc Goku GT không có God và Blue 😢😢😢

[@josephboland5440]

Also you forgot that they can probably use god kia with super sayain 4 making even stronger than aby other from

[@JemeryAres-lf3fi]

Super Saiyan Prime or Primal is better name for the primal super saiyan form.

[@Sam5D]

Gt characters stop at the universe 6 vs 7 arc

[@8thgod769]

Bro ngl hyourinjustu fans wyaaaa WE ALR KNEWWWWW LMAOOO

[@nexusgaminguniverse3722]

I already know about this long time ago. Based what Toei gave to us SSJ4 indeed a stronger transformation than SSJB. Proof👇 1.Golden Ozaru > SSJ Red 2.SSJ Blue > Golden Ozaru 3.SSJ 4 > SSJ Blue 4.SSJ 4 = SSJ Blue Kaioken x 10 5.SSJ 4 Full Power > SSJ Blue Kaioken x 10 6.SSJ 4 Full Power = SSJ Blue Kaioken x 20 7.SSJ 4 Full Power Limit Breaker > SSJ Blue Kaioken x 20 8.SSJ 4 Full Power Limit Breaker = Ultra Instinct Sign 9.SSJ4 Full Power Limit Breaker < Mastered Ultra Instinct 10.SSJ 4 Full Power Limit Breaker Kaioken x20 = Mastered Ultra Instinct. (That's is the only way for SSJ 4 to match the power and speed of MUI)

[@BIOHAZARDES.GamingMiles]

Super saiyan 4 would be really strong in dragon super scaling

[@Isakurai0-]

All there forms including base form are weaker than they should be cause the sayins tails bring out there full power. Since goku and vegeta had there Tails removed they can't reach there full potential unless they grow them back some how.

[@SensesReview]

Ssj4 should be 500•10 for kamahama maybe he mastered it be 2 so 500•2•10=10,000. DB math is different then dbz, dbz is linear power scaling because of Ki o ken. So if we skip the sharing power part and do the math of multipler for SSJG then it still be 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Omen Ultra instinct is 400, MUI IS 800 and it goes up like a graph since wis says he is tapping in to deeper.

[@JoshEastham]

I think god forms should be stronger even if they make ss4 canon

[@MorningStar-1199]

Y'all know diama is before super, its weaker

[@anubisgravatate7544]

Toriyama didn’t make ssblue

[@ericchildress3139]

SSJ4 is double golden oozaru which is 500x Base