WWII plan to convert B-26 Marauder bombers into a fighter for escorting B-17s & B-24s over Europe

[@gregharbican7189]

At a bare minimum, relying on forward fixed guns and being required to stay in formation would have resulted in even worse results than the YB-40. Somebody was definitely not thinking about the two contrary requirements. Fixed guns require that an aircraft be able to maneuver in such a way as to be able to actually aim the guns which would then be contrary to staying in formation.

[@robertmore703]

staying with formation =/= staying in formation. they would have been able to chase the fighters but they wouldn't have left the formation area

[@alganhar1]

@@robertmore703 Does not really matter. The Gunship B-17's did not work, slapping a ton of guns on a B-26 would have worked only slightly less badly. Another idiot decision by the bomber mafia who were too enamoured of their unescorted bomber dream, and got a lot of fine young men killed chasing that dream. USAF either should have sent them at night, or waited to send them in until they had sufficient long range fighters for escort. Instead they learned nothing from the utterly brutal casualties the British suffered early war, against a far less developed air defence system. They thought they knew better, and the lessons learned by other people, the hard way, did not apply to them because... I don't know... magic maybe? And even worse, the bombing accuracy in 1943 was so poor that essentially they got all those lads killed and achieved precisely bugger all. A criminal waste of good, brave young men. So waiting a few months for those fighters would have not affected the wars progression any, and would have ended up with a lot fewer dead USAF Aircrew.

[@rjb5847]

Hello from Canada. Thanks for doing these well researched informative videos. I've been an aircraft fan & modeler since I was 10 yrs old & I'm 73 now. Despite that & all the books I've read, I continue to learn new things watching your videos.

[@danbenson7587]

What turned the tide in Dec ‘44 was a change in tactics. Fighters weren’t to escort, they were to seek and destroy the Luftwaffe. The previous tactic of fighter escort failed, and the proposed B26 escort would too.

[@charlesjames1442]

(1943?)

[@williamdowns1917]

The vast majority of targets could be reached with P-38's and P-47's with drop tanks, but they chose not to prioritize drop tanks. So, yeah, they were so bomber focused and arrogant that they caused the death of many more air crew than necessary. Not one of the U.S. army's finer moments in WWII.

[@primmakinsofis614]

Incorrect. The P-38 had the plumbing and racks for under the wing drop tanks from the E model onward, and the tanks were initially supplied by Lockheed. There are dozens of letters between the AAF and aircraft manufacturers in 1942 detailing the development of drop tanks for the P-38, P-39, P-40, and even the P-47. Stop getting your information from Greg's inaccurate video and instead read the historical archive documents for yourself.

[@Token_Civilian]

My guess is the B-26 escort would have been as effective as a ME-110 up against single engine fighters. In other words, chum.

[@Fishyyy]

As someone who has regularly engaged US heavy bomber formations in 190s and 109s in a flight simulation, B-26s don't sound more threatening then pure B-17/B-24 formations.

[@michaelsnyder3871]

Try the head-on pass tactic against a B-17 formation in which the forward Vs are made up of B-26 escorts with two 20mm AN-M2 auto cannon and six/eight .50 AN-M2 MGs.

[@LupusAries]

​@@michaelsnyder3871The issue is that you can make all that heavy armament useless by flying just a bit off axis or off plane like in a slight climb or dive. Which doesn't complicate your gunnery that much. From one who has done the ssme as Fishyyy a lot in the ssme any other combat flight sims. IL-2 1946 is still the best when it comes to simulating huge formations.

[@tarjei99]

The B -26 escorts would have been slaughtered. They would add gaps in the defensive combat box formations. It would make more sense to have De Havilland Mosquitos as escorts. They would at least have something resembling speed.

[@richardvernon317]

If you read the operational record books of the Mosquito Bomber, Fighter Bomber and PR aircraft squadrons, you will find that a lot that is written about the aircraft between 1942 and when the records were released is total BS!!! The FB Mk VI was trialled against various marks of Spitfire and the Typhoon in A&AEE tactical Trials in 1943. It could not outrun a Spitfire IX or Typhoon I or out turn any of the aircraft four types it was trialled against. (Spitfire II / V / IX / Typhoon). Mosquito as a daylight Escort Fighter was a non starter. Until the Mosquito XVI with the 2 stage merlin came out, most intercepts on the PR Mosquitos resulted in a Kill for the germans in either they shot the Mosquito down, or forced it to use so much fuel in Max Boost to evade interception, that they didn't have the fuel to get to their target and get home, thus the Mosquito aborted the mission.

[@Rev6044]

How does a B-26 fly up at the cruising altitudes of the turbocharged B-17s and B-24s?

[@rayschoch5882]

Very interesting. I'm skeptical of any regular success by the B-26 in this role, just as was the case with the B-17 "gunship". The B-26 was not nimble enough, not fast enough to make up for its lack of maneuverability compared to a Bf-109 or FW-190. Adequate armament, but a lot bigger and slower target for enemy fighters than a P-51 or P-47.

[@petercantwell]

Very interesting. Thank-you.

[@patrickmcgroarty4714]

Maybe the considered Mosquito escorts, but those a/c were versatile so using them to escort would have taken them off other missions. Adding drop tanks to the p47’s and p51’s is what they needed

[@charlesjames1442]

Greg on Greg’s Aircraft and Automobiles states that General Kenny had already solved the range problem for P-47s that summer using Australian drop tanks, letting them escort B-24s against Japanese targets in New Guinea over similar distances.

[@primmakinsofis614]

Greg is wrong.

[@WisGuy4]

How was the USAAF able to distinguish between bombers destroyed by fighters and bombers lost to flak?

[@billbrockman779]

Did they ever consider Mosquito fighters?

[@petesjk]

I’m guessing this program would’ve had the same results as the YB-40 program. Somewhat decent results, but very resource and manpower intensive. I think the Generals could see the overall progress being made with fighter plane development and focused on that, so these types of programs became unnecessary.

[@reubensandwich9249]

I always had personal favoritism towards the B-26 and B-24 simply because growing up with neighbors who were crew members. The B-26 crew member said he threw up after the war when he found out one mission he bombed his own troops during Cobra's saturation bombing

[@longlakeshore]

Whatever is said about the B-26 it was the best looking Allied bomber of WW2.

[@alganhar1]

De Haviland Mosquito.... Sorry, not even close.

[@josevitorvaz1994]

B-26 invader? Yes! B-26 Marauder? lol I disagree

[@Medievaltroubador]

I am sorry to say this but you couldn’t be more wrong! EVERYONE knows that the B-17G in bare metal finish is the best looking Allied bomber.

[@gort8203]

People love to criticize the impractical ideas Germany hoped might improve its fortunes during the war. This is an example of how Germany did not have a monopoly on impractical ideas. Desperation for a solution can result in expenditure of effort on unpromising ideas that would otherwise have never been considered. That being said, this idea did not first emerge after the bomber loss rate that materialized in 1943. Escort aircraft such as this had been considered in the prewar years, when the idea of a specialized heavy escort aircraft that could fly alongside the bombers was considered. It was considered because at the time nobody believed a pursuit aircraft could ever have the range to escort long-range bombers, unless the fighter were so heavy that it would be ineffective in combat against much enemy interceptors. The idea was discarded as unlikely to be effective, but later resurrected due to the need for long range escort.

[@pencilpauli9442]

Wondering if the B-26 escorts could have disrupted Luftwaffe head on tactics to stop the formation from breaking up. Not sure of when the Luftwaffe put the head on attacks into practice and where the B-26 escorts would have been operational

[@tsufordman]

There saving grace may have been that, as lond as they stayed in formation, the fighters may have just ignored them as pointless to waste ammo on.

[@user-tl5fi9lz9z]

In your thumbnail picture you can see that the bombader or who ever is in the nose of the plane is taking a drag on a cigarette.

[@peterwright217]

thats interesting, but as a German pilot you wont let a B-26 point 10+ guns at you..... interesting info

[@Perfusionist01]

Wow, what were the AAF brass smoking? Personally, my opinion is that using the B26 as an escort "fighter" would only have increased the number of aces in the Luftwaffe and would have killed a lot of American pilots for little (if any) gain. The oly effect of the B26s would be to draw German fighters away from the heavies BRIEFLY. In 1943 there were still a lot of "experten" around and they would have FW190s or BF1109Gs. The B26 was good but not good enough to survive the thrashing they would have received.

[@joechang8696]

the problem is really the B-17's low outbound (with bombs) speed 182 mph? and to a degree the B-24 at 215? Perhaps have B-26's go by themselves in a "fighter sweep" over a given target area for several days straight in a given target area. Go with just a crew of 3, pilot, nav/radio, and tail gunner, forward fixed + tail gin + some armor at 240mph+. When the Luftwaffe show sign of exhaustion or disinterest, then slip in a B-17 attack. Perhaps fly at 180mph initially to mimic B-17, only accelerating on contact?

[@gort8203]

The B-26 was not a fighter and would have been dead meat doing a 'fighter sweep' over Germany. The idea here was that it would act like a YB-40 and stay in formation with and add its firepower to the bombers, not try to engage real fighters in single combat.

[@stephenrickstrew7237]

All this because Hap Arnold didn’t believe in drop tanks for the P47 ..

[@haroldellis9721]

While I have my doubts about the idea, as a model kit, it would be The Most American Thing.

[@nickdanger3802]

Boulton Paul Defiant turret fighter

[@JimmySailor]

Interesting concept though it’s probably the right move not to go forward with it. A B26 cost about 4 times what a P47 cost and adding more fuel in the form of drop tanks seems the obvious solution. I do have a question about night straffing. Was it ever considered to straff German fighter bases at night? Since we’re talking about the B26 a ground attack variant would have been suitable for such missions and with darkness to hide in would have been reasonably safe. The concept in my head would have been to have some bombers fly a high altitude mission and drop parachute flares to illuminate the fields and fly the attack aircraft in at low altitude in a horizontal attack. Use the flexible mounted forward guns to attack the air fields. Presumably a B26 could carry quite a few flares and such an attack could be repeated several times. Damaging planes on the ground seems an ideal way to impact the Luftwaffe. Also it seems a fairly low risk strategy, maybe only a handful of planes could be assigned to each airfield. But I’ve never heard of anyone trying such a technique. The US used pathfinder flares but only for bombing attacks. I’m curious if something like this was ever attempted.

[@JetBirdZ]

Mosquitos were very active over German airfields at night. I'm pretty sure they did a bit of strafing at times .

[@randomnickify]

It supposed to stop gap solution, they've already had the bombers and were about to scrap them as useless.

[@alganhar1]

Mosquito's spent much of the latter half of the war doing exactly that. Well not so much strafing, the Mosquito Night Fighters would be split up. Some would go in along with the bomber stream to pick off any German night fighter they detected. The rest would head for the German Night Fighter bases and loiter around them. They would pick off any German NF they saw taking off or landing. I have a book written by a former German Night Fighter pilot who said that the last thing most of his comrades wo died saw were the flashes of a Mosquitos cannon, and most were killed near or on their bases.

[@charlesjames1442]

I suppose the poor fellow that conceived this idea was promoted out of the way. Thank God for that.

[@Dare-rq4zj]

It's all a massive clusterf**k by staff officers who didn't fly combat missions. There was simply no rationale to fly unescorted missions other than to compete with the British whose warnings they ignored because it wasn't them who would die. They knew that by 1944 less than a year later longer range escorts would be available. Think of the thousands of lives wasted because of their egos and for no other reasons. This same rationale was prevalent in the military when I was in back in the 70's and still with us today. These SOBs simply don't want to learn that their career ambitions cost lives.

[@gort8203]

You're the one with an exaggerated ego if you think you're smarter than the guys trying to fight a war back then. There was a rationale for unescorted missions, so you don't really understand the evolution of the doctrine and tactics. When strategic bombardment doctrine was under development before the war it was accepted that there would never be fighters with sufficient range to escort bombers to deep targets, because (at that time) any fighter with such range would be too heavy to be effective in combat. This is why they theorized even then about heavy escort aircraft like the YB-40. Fighters would support bombers to the max extent of their combat radius, but could not hold hands all the way to deep targets. It would take a certain critical mass or size of a bomber formation to achieve self-defense and incur only sustainable losses, and bombers would not be sent deep until those numbers were available. Just because losses where higher than hoped does not mean there was no rationale, or that lives were mercilessly expended for the sake of "ego". Lives were expended for the sake of winning the air war.

[@nickdanger3802]

Bomber Losses, Germany and Northern Europe HC Deb 13 October 1943 vol 392 cc863-4863 §28. Mr. Stokes asked the Secretary of State for Air how many British bombers were lost over Germany and Northern Europe during the month of September; the total for the nine months ended 30th 864September; and whether he has any information as to the figures for American bombers over the same periods? §Sir A. Sinclair 193 British and 92 American bomber aircraft operating from this country were reported lost over Germany and Northern Europe during September. The totals for the nine months ended 30th September are 1,844 British and 539 American.

[@gregsutton2400]

It's not totally crazy the threat at that time was also in the form of bf110s a very slow overtake speed probably better to put the 20 mm in the tail and Park b26 is behind the formations. But pretty dubious for sure

[@MAYDAYSIMULATIONS]

Great Video.... And substantially worse than the BF-110 4 years earlier. The B25 would have been equally useless. having 70% of your firepower fixed straight ahead in a plane that would be wheezing to get to 25,000 ft never mind maneuvering would be even worse off. It would be interesting to see documents on why the turbos the plane was designed for were never allocated. If the 400 mph mosquito was the wonder plane.....why was there never even a test aircraft of a 400 mph B26. Or was there?

[@CaffeineGeek]

My comment is not a knock on the brave servicemembers that went into combat and gave their lives for a better world. Rather it is my view on the desperation of the top brass to reduce losses. The idea of using a medium bomber as an escort "fighter" feels like a high school kid trying to crank out a five page paper the night before it is due.

[@alganhar1]

If they were trying to reduce losses they should have waited an extra six months and gathered adequate numbers of long range fighters for an appropriate escort. The leaders of 8th airforce were criminally incompetent, totally unwilling to abandon the idea of unescorted bombing even with the evidence of the mounting casualties. Their bomber crews on the other hand were outstanding, they were suffering the highest combat casualty rate of any arm of the US military, and they knew all to well their chances of actually surviving a Tour were less than 15%. Yet they still climbed in their aircraft and flew the missions those incompetents sent them on.... And the worse thing is the US bombing of 1943 was so inaccurate they essentially achieved nothing, despite their tremendous courage, and their truly horrifying sacrifice, they achieved nothing. They were wasted by a bunch of morons, who had they waited for an extra 6 months for an adequate number of fighters to escort those bombers in might not have improved bombing accuracy, but would have lost a lot fewer brave young men doing it.

[@nickdanger3802]

@@alganhar1 Pointblank Directive "Redrafted by the Air Ministry, the directive tasked the 8th US Army Air Force with attacking the aviation industry; RAF Bomber Command would work towards 'the general disorganisation of German industry', as before." BBC Fact File : Berlin Air Offensive

[@joeminella5315]

👍👍👍👍👍

[@robertspence831]

They might have done well against ME-110 or JU-88 fighter variants. Not so well against FW-190 or ME-109 aircraft.

[@spenner3529]

You should do a video on the Bomber Mafia, the biggest reason it took so long to field proper escort fighters.

[@primmakinsofis614]

Incorrect. But you're hardly the first to be taken in by that silliness.

[@reubensandwich9249]

This channel is about ACTUAL primary sources. Not fan fiction

[@gort8203]

Wrong. You need to read more books and watch fewer internet videos.

[@stage6fan475]

Nothing about this idea sounds feasible, so it is a sign of just how desperate they were getting before the Mustang arrived.

[@steveperreira5850]

They were desperate based on their own stupidity. Long before mid 1943 the P 47 thunderbolt had drop tanks capable of going all the way to Berlin and back but the US Army Air Force wouldn’t buy the tanks. See Greg’s airplanes, he talks about this thoroughly. The eighth Air Force command it was nearly totally incompetent at the time

[@gort8203]

@@steveperreira5850 For the folks reading this comment, Greg is wrong. Please do your own research and read some history.