The devastating effect WWII German 20mm Auto Cannons had on US Bombers

The intent of this video is to discuss the devastating effect the German Mg-151 20mm autocannons had on US Bombers in WWII. The Germans adopted Mg151 20mm autocannons firing the high explosive mine rounds. It took 20 to 25 strikes of this projectile to destroy a heavy bomber. Annotated combat footage showing the destructive power of the 20mm high explosive mine projectile is shown at the end of the video. Video features the BF109, FW190, P47, B17 and B24 airframes.
As Requested the Mk-108 30mm German Autocannon Video:
• WWII German Mk-108 30m...

[@user-pm5ur5rd1s]

When we lived in Germany, I made it a point to get to know some elderly Germans who fought in WWII. One was a fighter pilot; night fighters and then transitioned to Reichsvertidigung day fighters. He had over 20 verified 4 engine bomber kills, and said he always tried to hit and engine if he could because it might give the crew more time to bail out. After the 2/13/1945 bombing of Dresden, he said he started going for the wing roots so the crew would likely be trapped by a collapsed wing. He said after Dresden, he wanted to kill as many British and American air crew as possible. Those who were able to bail out were frequently killed by civilians if the military authorities were not quick enough to rescue them.

[@hikarihikari4501]

Name of this pilot?

[@Dschacksn-jj9fn]

[@gerokron3412]

This guy dedicated his talents and ability to serve for the most brutal regime German soil ever saw. There is no way to ever atone for it. Have a good one from Germany.

[@ufukpolat3480]

​@@fawnlliebowitz1772an utterly asinine comment. It doesn't matter who started the war, targeting civilians (including women, elderly, children) is not only a war crime, it's subhuman unethical behavior. Countless children suffered tremendously painful deaths and unrecoverable injuries as a result of the firebombs. It is only reasonable for a pilot to want to avenge this even if that pilot himself is guilty of many immoral acts, fighting for Nazi Germany ranking at the top of that list.

[@fawnlliebowitz1772]

One reaps what they sow. Who bombed London FIRST, I'm certain the victims of Warsaw would disagree with you. Learn some history.@@ufukpolat3480

[@Hopeless_and_Forlorn]

What a great, well researched presentation. I was an Air Force weapons mechanic serving in Germany from 1961 to 1964. I was highly impressed with the simplicity, reliability and hitting power of the M-39 20mm cannons on the F-100 aircraft. That revolver cannon was reportedly developed from a WWII Mauser design. When the F-100 was replaced by the F-105, which was equipped with the M61, we found the Gatling-style gun and particularly its new, linkless feed system to be very unreliable and incredibly maintenance intensive. Even an attempt to load fresh ammo frequently resulted in the need for major maintenance on the system. Obviously the problems with the Gatling were worked out in subsequent years, but in my opinion the F-100 was a real gunfighter and the F-105D and F models were practically unarmed when it came to gunnery.

[@dukecraig2402]

I was a Vulcan gunner in the Army back in the 80's and I can assure you they had any issues worked out by then, you're using the first generation attempt at something as a measuring standard, the GE M61 cannon is a vastly superior system to those multiple gun systems it replaced, lighter weight and a higher rate of fire in a smaller package than a 4 gun system. Those things functioned flawlessly every time we used them, stoppages were extremely rare, the vast majority of the time when we were at the range with 4 guns online firing all day it went without a single hitch or hiccup, in the 3 years I did it I can only account I single time that we had to use our reserve gun we brought along to replace one of the 4 guns initially put online at the beginning of the day.

[@robertwoodroffe123]

F104 star fighter?

[@quadsman11]

🇺🇲 Just a simple note to say thank you for your service Sir ! Your service is definitely not taken for granted ! I am grateful our freedom every single day ! Even though we seem far to willing to let it slip away without so much as a fight these days ! How extremely heartbreaking 😢 ! 🇺🇲

[@ww748]

Probably a good thing, the F-105 was not a very good aircraft as designed. The Thunderbirds used them for a half dozen shows, hated them then went back to the F-100. Terrible maintenance issues and in-flight failures crippled its original mission. As conventional bombers they were pretty much sitting ducks which a better gun would not have helped - and the fleet was pretty much expended in Vietnam with total losses approaching 50%. The aircrews who flew them were very brave men, but a better gun would have made little difference.

[@dukecraig2402]

@@ww748 The F105 was an excellent aircraft as designed, in Vietnam it was being used outside of it's primary role which was to deliver nuclear weapons deep in the Soviet Union, and like every other F designated US aircraft used in Vietnam they all suffered from the rules of engagement that stated an enemy aircraft couldn't be fired on until visual recognition was confirmed, none of the US aircraft were designed to be anywhere nearly as close to enemy fighter's as the F105's, F4's and others were forced to because of that rule, by their original design they'd have dealt with enemy fighter's "over the horizon" before they got as close as they typically were during engagements in Vietnam, that's why before a new variant of the F4 with a gun could be fielded the existing F4's already seeing action over there had that hastily designed windmill powered gun pod put on them, it suffered from accuracy problems at any speeds over the slowest one's due to aerodynamic forces causing the pod to torque around and throw it's bursts everywhere except for where it was being aimed.

[@TheManAshley]

My father was wounded by 20 mm canon fire from an Me 109. He was a flight engineer who was moved down from the normal top turret gun to waist gun. On April 18, 1944 on a mission to Berlin, the tail gunner’s gun jammed and the 109 was able to approach and fire his 20 mm cannons. A round exploded when it hit dad’s oxygen tank, knocking him unconscious with shrapnel wounds. The other waist gunner game to assist by sharing his oxygen. The other waist gunner had 87 pieces of shrapnel hits on his front torso. Luckily they were mostly skin deep and he was released from the hospital before dad. The heavily damaged aircraft never flew again. The pilot returned the ship with four wounded and no fatalities. On another mission over Berlin, flack from an 88 blew a hole in the bottom of the plane - dad used to have a picture of the hole - and again suffered wounds from aluminum shards along his shins. The flight surgeon used a straight razor to “shave” the slivers from his shins. He flew 25 missions - at the age of 20.

[@johnarmstrong5591]

WOW!

[@Legitpenguins99]

Nothing like WW2 stories to make you feel weak and shameful of your comparatively easy life. No? Just me?

[@Steven-lx2yv]

​@@johnarmstrong5591WOW

[@danielebrparish4271]

I hope you read Donald Miller's "Masters of the Air" In April of '44 they greatly increased the number of missions that were being flown in preperation for D-Day. It started causing mental problems for the crews. However it took a lot less time for a crew to complete their 25 missions.

[@Kruppt808]

​@Legitpenguins99 people in some 3rd world countries have mass genocide, rape and torture, child soldiers 😢 for decades including yesterday ect.... Plenty of horror and misery humanity brings upon itself in 2024.

[@BradBrassman]

As a policeman during the war my grandfather found a piece of a German bomber in a field in Leicestershire with an unexploded 20mm Hispano cannon round that had been fired by a spitfire on down the road, some of the ejected cartridges; I still have both pieces.

[@andrebartels1690]

The cartridges are a nice souvenir. But I'd be freaked out about the unexploded round. Explosives don't read the calendar, and they don't choose friend or foe. Better get rid of it. If you're not sure whether it's a live round or not, better treat it like a live round. Have someone pick it up, don't move it around yourself.

[@gort8203]

I greatly appreciate the straightforward and succinct presentation of interesting facts, unaccompanied by the hype, drama, and often fakery endemic to other channels covering military avaition. Thank you, and please continue with the great manner in which you present your subject matter.

[@benrobertson7855]

Same,this is really nice and refreshing to find.I subbed just on the content presentation….

[@bradsanders407]

One can only imagine the sheer terror that those men faced on every mission.

[@chapiit08]

The 30 mm MK108 cannon was even more devastating than the 20 mm and it's design was brilliant in it's simplicity and ease of production.

[@Desertduleler_88]

It had low muzzle velocity, which brought E/A within the range of the bombers defensive fire.

[@richardjames1812]

The lower velocity / looping ballistics was a problem. However, no doubt, if 30mm round impacted it caused a lot more damage.

[@TTTT-oc4eb]

@@richardjames1812 I wonder if some pilots tried to stay at some distance and "lob" the 30mm shells on the bombers. I know, extremely difficult, but you have the tracers to follow. Would have required a lot of rounds, but then just 2 or 3 could down a bomber.

[@Trbrigade]

It has slow rate of fire, and terrible shell velocity for air combat. The trajectory of the projectile was more like a mortar than a cannon. Plus, the huge recoil did not allow accurate fire.

[@kidpagronprimsank05]

Against bomber, lower velocity isn't a big problem. Against fighter it is.

[@JamesWilliams-en3os]

Excellent presentation. I have not seen photos of the damage done by 20mm mine rounds before. Truly devastating rounds!

[@dwwolf4636]

There ought to be a camera reel of 30mm Minengeschoss test firing around here somewhere....

[@phil4986]

I also had never seen those Spitfire or Bi7 cockpit strike pictures. Looking at the Spitfire, when he said the hole was as big as the pilots head I kind of gasped because a foot to the left the pilots head would not be there. I think that British pilot might have been saved from bad injury by his seat back. Vicious rounds.

[@alexwilliamson1486]

Very interesting film, the Germans had even bigger weapons than this , 30mm in calibre, which was said, took only 3 rounds to take down a “heavy” Thr destructive power of the minengeschoss rounds were known well before thr 8th arrived in the UK, The RAF had met them in the Battle of Britain.

[@thunderousavenger2382]

@@bobmalack481 do it better yourself zzz This thing is supposed to be informative, not a kids tv show to entertain your toddlers with.

[@thunderousavenger2382]

@@bobmalack481 i mean. Ok. Fair enough. I cant really dispute that.

[@cameronfoster3314]

Holy shit. That is brutal. How such a small round can be so devastating is horrendous. Great video!

[@josephhall8544]

The 8 October 43 picture is "Tinkertoy" of the 381st Bomb Group, Station 167 Ridgewell, after it returned from a mission to Bremen, Germany. The impact shown in the picture entered the cockpit and decapitated the pilot, Lt. Hal Minnerich, killing him instantly, and wounded the co-pilot, Lt. Thomas Sellers. Lt. Sellers was able, with the help of other crewmembers, to fly back to Ridgewell and land the plane safely. Lt. Sellers was able to complete his tour in April 1944. Tinkertoy was lost 20 December 1943 over Bremen after being struck by an attacking BF-109

[@tieroneactual2228]

Also ironically on 20DEC43, that was when the B-17 from the 379th Bomb Group named “ Ye Olde Pub” on its return flight from a mission over Bremen as well, was met up with a ME109 flow by Franz Stigler, who ended up giving the B-17 safe passage out of Germany to over the North Sea. The book published about the two pilots encounter is titled “ A Higher Call” and tells the stories of the B-17 pilot Charlie Brown & BF-109 Pilot Franz Stigler, who ended up being able to meet up years later in 1990. As many know there are videos about their encounter on You-Tube, a couple are great & others are not as accurate. Either way the book is well worth reading for anyone interested in this type of history.

[@nicktozie6685]

Awesome story

[@richardjames1812]

Good detail / follow up. Thank you.

[@ericcombs4017]

Yep, that was Tinker Toy

[@KikiRevenge]

Wow. Imagine being wounded and having to fly a bomber through combat with a headless guy (probably a good friend) right next to you.

[@alexbowman7582]

Presumably that Spitfire pilot survived that 20mm shell unharmed because he was sitting in an armoured cockpit bathtub which increases weight and decreases performance but protects the pilot. The Japanese Zero didn’t have an armoured bathtub which meant it was lighter and flew better but eventually more pilots were killed.

[@01ZO6TT]

As many have already said. This is a great presentation. Very well done! I learned a lot about this. Props.

[@newzealandallblacks3726]

Excellent technical explanation without any stupid political or patriotic hyperbole!

[@antonrudenham3259]

That second Spitfire was brand new delivered to the squadron that morning and flown by Dunlop Urie against a Luftwaffe raid on 18th August 1940. It was so new that it's guns hadn't been harmonised nor had the squadron code letters been applied to the fuselage, it had a combat life of precisely 24 minutes as the cannon shell damage broke its back and it never flew again. Dunlop Urie was wounded in the legs, recovered and flew throughout the war.

[@anselmdanker9519]

No wonder he is smiling, he used up 1 of his 9 lives.

[@MarkDavison59]

The first Spitfire, MK IX, was that of my late friend Art Sager. The damage was the result of being hit by AA fire on a rhubarb over Holland on 13 November 1943. He spoke of it in his book Line Shoot.

[@honestabe8930]

In that case it was not a MG151/20 that hit him but a MG FF or MG FF/M

[@justforever96]

@@honestabe8930 and probably not a mine shell either.

[@einundsiebenziger5488]

... its* guns (it's = it is) ...

[@jean-robertlombard1416]

Bonjour de France. Excellent job sir. Merci beaucoup.

[@cavalry624]

Dude. Such clean and well presented info with great photos and videos as well as data. So concise and straight to the point. Very cool, keep up the great work!

[@petefeigal8118]

During WWII, Commander J.P. Monroe, head of the armament branch of the Bureau of Aeronautics, in WWII had some thoughts about cannons vs machine guns: From a strictly “gun horsepower” standpoint, one American-clone of the British 20mm Hispano, (although not as good,) 20 mm cannon, like the one placed in the nose of the P-38, was roughly equivalent to three .50-caliber machine guns. “The 20 will go through .75 inch of armor at 500 yards, while the .50 cal will go through only .43.” He also noted that the significantly heavier cannon barrel was not as susceptible to being damaged/over heated with long bursts like the Ma Deuce .50. But the German 20mm HE "Minen" shells were significantly more powerful than even the British 20mm Hispano shells, equal to four or five .50 caliber machine guns, so some of the heavily armed Fw 190s with four MG 151 20mm cannon and two 7.92 machine guns actually had more firepower than a B -25 "strafer" gunship with 14 forward firing .50s!

[@ZacLowing]

Good thing the brits where using .303s, LOL

[@velocitymg]

@@ZacLowing - significant trade off from using 20mm rounds was the increased weight and less rounds. Only some parts of an aircraft were armoured so .303 rounds were still quite effective

[@philipbre]

No wonder the fw190 was called the butcher bird. It's quite something.

[@HaVoC117X]

@@velocitymg mg 151 had basically the same weight as an M2. Furthermore the two inboard mg 151 of fw 190 had 250 rounds each. Mustangs had 350 rounds per gun. Giving the effect on target, the overall weight for firepower is much better on the German aircraft. Fw 190 cockpit is one of the best protected cockpits of wwII, especially on the F and G Fighter Bomber models and U kits for bomber destruction. Only P47 and Hellcats come close to this kind ov level.

[@jpmtlhead39]

One thing that i never understood very well,was the brittish idiotic idea of having their aircraft,even Heavy Bombers armed with the 0.303 round. Its realy hard to understand why they kept using that almost useless round in Air Warfare until the end of the war.

[@cnobillbradley9673]

My dad was a Bombardier B 24 in the eighth Air Force and he said it was scary as hell

[@rabbitbully1810]

I have been learning about WW2 for over 30 yrs, and have never heard about a bomber being able to surrender like that. You taught me something, thank you.

[@mattl3729]

Well it wasn't a formal thing, and the film doesn't show it- the main wheels are partly exposed, but not moving so it's more like a hydraulic or mechanical failure that caused them to be released. Even if the pilot did mean to lower them to indicate surrender, there's no reason to believe the German pilot understood.

[@andrewblake2254]

I am sure it was not the usual procedure. I never read of any enemy or friendly aircraft surrendering like that.

[@reiddillashaw2383]

I'm grateful to the creator of this channel for all the work put into these videos. As a fan of history topics, the work is much appreciated. Bravo and well done. You've earned another subscriber.

[@TheMainMayn]

One of the best presentations of images/data I've come across on YT regarding this topic. Very well done bro,

[@Soonlobo64]

Thanks for these presentations! My Uncle Jack Myers was a bombardier on B-17’s in the 15th AAF based at Foggia, Italy and wrote about his time the in the book “Shot At And Missed.” My wife’s step father was a flight engineer on B-24’s coincidentally stationed near Foggia, and my dad flew on B-29’s during the Korean War as a radio operator. Thanks for showing these videos, it’s great to see how these bombers operated.

[@thomasformanek465]

My Uncle Zig Wendt was an armorer with the 15th AAF in Italy in WWII. He broke his thumb, jumping out of his bomb laden truck during an air raid.

[@beverlychmelik5504]

I have to disagree with the conclusion on the last clip. The wheels are not down. But is is a dead bomber flying and most of the crew who can, may have already left the aircraft.

[@dukecraig2402]

Yep, and as per standard operating procedure the auto pilot would be engaged so the crew, especially the pilot, could bail out. That accounts for a lot of the stories about "ghost" bombers that didn't have crews in them continuing to fly.

[@scottcriswell6154]

Agreed, the landing gear of this B-17 is not down. The main gear tires of a B-17 protrude somewhat when fully retracted.

[@mattl3729]

Yes and it's rather disappointing to suggest the German pilot chose to ignore this supposed signal of 'surrender' . It was not a formal thing, and not even happening anyway- the wheels could be partly out of their fairings, but aren't moving, therefore are not 'being' lowered. More likely some kind of hydraulic or mechanical failure letting them drop a bit or something. I've read a lot of Luftwaffe fighter pilot personal histories and not once have I read of US bomber signalling surrender by lowering their wheels.

[@pbysome]

@@mattl3729 because you haven't read it doesn't make it untrue. Landing gear on this aircraft is retracted,b17 undercart isn't fully enclosed when retracted. I don't think the narrator was eluding to the last aircraft but the one preceding when he talked of surrender the signal. In the last sequence the belly gunner and tail gunner are probably dead at this point, the fighter coming in astern will target the guns that are firing on him.

[@valaksimulations4503]

I think the ball turret gunner was probably killed. There was quite a few cannon rounds slamming into it

[@vaerenbergh]

The mg 151/ff 20mm canon with Minengeshroß maid its first apearance in the me109 E4. It is a far stretch to call it designed just for bombers, the 30mm was truly designed for bomberkiling, you only needed 3 to 5 hits on a bomber to kill it

[@DiscoDashco]

Dude, your presentations are TOP DRAWER! So technical and detailed in ways that no other sources of military history bother with, but it is fascinating and sobering at the same time to learn how death was dealt out no matter which military force you’re discussing in any of your videos. Your B-29 Super Fortress video was the first I saw and that alone made me a Subscriber!

[@WWIIUSBombers]

Thanks for the kind words. Welcome to the channel. Much appreciated.

[@hummingbird9149]

For comparison the Germans established through guncam footage that it only took on average THREE hits with a 30mm HE(M) shell to down a B17 or B24. Little known fact: The Germans recorded more guncam footage for AARs, kill confirmation and study purposes than all other nations during the war combined. Sadly however almost all LW guncam footage, save a tiny fraction of a percentage, was lost to history as the film archive (Located inside the Dresden cathedral) was bombed and burned to the ground in February 1945.

[@ottovonbismarck2443]

This has been well done ! Although the information isn't new, you backed it up with documents and diagrams. I like it. Ammo belts were packed with a mixture of AP, incendiary and fragmentation shells and the layout very much depended on your mission profile. While most of the recorded damage comes from 20mm, one must not forget that this was for returning bombers only. The impact of 30mm prevented bombers from returning in the first place.

[@carlorrman8769]

This was an excellent video. Very informative and so well researched. Well done mate.

[@N_Wheeler]

This is, easily, your best video of all time, as of early 2023.

[@drunio1504]

My dad, a B-17 pilot, survived a 20 mm cannon round passing thru and just underneath his seat, between his legs. It failed detonate. He was 19 yrs old. I marvel how lucky he was after enduring multiple close calls.

[@fanatamon]

Great luck on that.

[@BurtSampson]

My grandpa was a bombardier navigator on a B-17 during the war(I've got a video on my channel of an interview with him before his death.) I remember him telling me a story one time that after one of their missions either hte pilot or the co-pilot found an unexploded 20mm round under his seat after they landed. Lucky guy.

[@dukecraig2402]

I wonder who the lucky guy was on the ground crew that got to remove it, you'd definitely need a tranquilizer to get to sleep that night.

[@DaSpineLessFish]

What’s the interview called

[@fanatamon]

Wonder if that was one of those dud shells made on purpose by German pows. Either way lucky.

[@salvadorvillegas3569]

@BurtSampson : Muchas tripulaciones de B-17, Lancasters, Hallyfaxs y cazabombarderos P-52 tuvieron la suerte de volver y sobrevivir pese a ser tocados por los proyectiles explosivos alemanes gracias a que estos habían sido boycoteados por prisioneros en las fábricas del sistema KZL "nazis" .... esta es una de las razones porque de vez en cuando se fusilaban cuadrillas completas de prisioneros y cautivos en retribución, porque entre ellos estaba oculto el boycoteador ...

[@steventhorson4487]

Excellent video 📹

[@glynmatthews6697]

Even though I’ve seen this footage many times, it still makes my blood run cold seeing the B17’s being riddled with cannon fire and drifting helplessly.

[@indyjones1970]

Fascinating. Thankyou

[@alfredeneuman6966]

I give a lot of credit to the allied bomber crews. Flying tight formations helped minimize losses and stray aircraft were generally sitting ducks for the Luftwaffe. I read that beginning 1942 it was virtually impossible for crews to complete the required 25 missions until the Memphis Belle completed its 25th mission on May 17, 1943. Four members of the original crew died in combat.

[@nohphd]

My father flew 56 missions over Europe in WW2 as a waist gunner, then went on to two tours in Korea as a grunt. The Man saw some awful stuff.

[@fazole]

@@nohphd What did that do to him mentally? I can't believe he served as a grunt in Korea after being in the riskiest assignment in WW2 statistically speaking.

[@straybullitt]

Hell's Angels completed 25 missions before Memphis Belle. The powers that be didn't like the name, so the Memphis Belle was chosen to go on the war bond tour. The Hell's Angels went on to successfully complete 48 missions, and was sadly scrapped at the end of the war.

[@alfredeneuman6966]

​@@straybullitt Yes, I had read that later on. Memphis Belle deserves credit for fulfilling 25 missions, but Hells Angels should have had it first. Public relations even during war.

[@roadtoad7704]

@@straybullitt Just like the USS Nevada in atomic testing 😥

[@photosbyernesto9621]

Great vid - I never knew that was how the 20mm German rounds worked! Those bomber crews who survived must have suffered some serious PTSD after suffering the destruction from those rounds and flak...

[@AreeyaKKC]

Back then it was called shell shock. And you can see why.

[@stevenle1760]

Thanks for your great channel and videos. Found the videos very fascinating.

[@johnwatson3948]

In the 1940’s and 50’s the explosive 20mm was adopted as a bomber defense gun - at least on the B-36. Always wanted to know more about this.

[@Phaaschh]

We have a family friend, ex-forces, who lives on the south coast near Newhaven. Some years ago on a diving expedition nearby, his team raised the propeller of a Spitfire, almost certainly a mkV, which had ditched offshore. Along with it, and displayed in his garden, is a 20mm Hispano cannon from the same wreck. It still has a round in the breech. Quite a find.

[@callumw-s8693]

Another fantastic presentation. Thankyou for all your hard work. Cheers, Callum

[@willo7734]

Really excellent video. Glad i found your channel, subbed!

[@pauldonnelly7949]

Great vid and dives into an often overlooked aspect of the air war. Well researched, presented and very informative. Please post more! Subscribed.

[@dennisfox8673]

I don’t have anything specific to say, but I love your content and figure a comment will help this channel get more visibility.👍

[@WWIIUSBombers]

I appreciate that!

[@DB-qg7hk]

Great presentation! You covered everything I wanted to know before I knew I wanted to know it! Awesome 👍

[@SamFlaherty-nt4cv]

love how you get right to the facts. A rare gem of a history channel

[@clazy8]

Great info, great images! I learned so much from this video.

[@tcook6759]

Fantastic video. No fluff at all just facts and very good presentation. I was curious about the 20 mm and never knew until today just why they were so devastating. Liked and subscribed.

[@markbattista6857]

WW 2 US Bombers , I am very pleased to have found your channel for WW 2 aviation in general but particularly B 17 s have always interested me very much . I am most impressed with your data and delivery and would love to no how and why you have chosen such a unique subject to expert in . Thanks for being here .

[@williamashbless7904]

Wow! Literally the first I have ever seen on this subject. Very well done.

[@richardglady3009]

Thank you for all your research and great production values.

[@paulbradford8240]

There was a lot in this video that I was unaware of. Thank you. Subscribed.

[@5co756]

You need to make a video about the Mk108 as well , 30mm Minengeschoß had about 70 to 85g of TNT . Pretty much a grenade launcher .

[@ezioauditoredafirenze5453]

Thank you from this channel. It provides interesting and well made content. Keep up the great work. 👍

[@stevewhisperer6609]

This is the second time I've seen that Japanese 20mm rounds had less effective fuse settings - detonating immediately upon impact with the sheet metal skin and doing little internal damage to aircraft structures and crew.

[@echopapacharlie]

Nice presentation.

[@cynic3068]

What an excellent, succinct and well researched video. Showed you the the things you actually need to know about these rounds.

[@manilajohn0182]

I don't know who you are, but I do know that your video presentation is first class. I've been a student of military history for over fifty years and I have yet to see a better style of video presentation. Only "Greg's Planes and Automobiles" is an equal for your regarding educational military history videos. To sum all of this up... WELL DONE. +1 like and subscriber- and thank you.

[@erickent3557]

Greg's channel is top tier... I wish his detailed analysis existed 20+ years ago when I was heavily into aviation history.

[@manilajohn0182]

@@erickent3557 Well said sir.

[@zali13]

Superb and informative presentation! Any chance you'll be covering the German fighter 13mm MGs and 30mm cannons next?

[@williamkennedy5492]

This video has filled in many gaps in my knowledge, thank you

[@34Realist]

Perhaps it should also be mentioned that the 20mm was increasingly being replaced by the 30mm MK 108 due to insufficient damage. The ME 262 had 4 of them in the bow

[@34Realist]

@@tjf5148 yes, and FW 190, and ME 110, and HE 162, and HE 217, and JU 88, and AR234

[@franktreppiedi2208]

This is certainly informative but I've read that the Germans considered that the 20mm was ineffective against bombers and that lead to the development of 30mm weapons. It only took 3 30 mm hits to take down B-17s and B-24s.

[@jimmiller5600]

I've heard the same thing. However, each time you increase the caliber of the projectile you get fewer of them to fire per minute and per sortie.

[@goldleader6074]

@@jimmiller5600 Also the ballistics start to get worse with the larger surface area as the size increases on the projectile/shell.

[@jbepsilon]

In general, larger caliber shells have better ballistics due to improving volume vs surface ratio. In the particular example of the German Mk108, it had low muzzle velocity and resulting poor ballistics in order to fit on a WWII fighter.

[@agskytter8977]

@@jbepsilon Yes, but when referring to the Mk108 in a Me262 people forget the added velocity of aircraft. A Me262 on an attack run from behind on a B17 adds almost 400fps to the muzzle velocity related to the difference in speed between the aircrafts. Remember, the Me262 lauches the 30mm round at 850 - 900km/h. The muzzle velocity of a 30mm Mk108 is actually app 2500fps when fired from a Me262.

[@trauko1388]

Not "ineffective", just that a 30mm would do the job better... and I disagree. By then the LW was using 190s with 4xMG151 20mm plus 2xMG131, plenty enough to deal with any bomber... BUT, the 109 could only fit ONE MG151 OR one MK108, so the choice was obvious in favour of the 30mm since you just need a couple hits to blow them to pieces.

[@Gronk79]

Another outstanding presentation!

[@joelex7966]

Great video, could you do one on the MK 108 30mm projectiles as well.

[@user-oh7fd2vs4j]

ME 262 :-)

[@ruperterskin2117]

Right on. Thanks for sharing.

[@holgernarrog962]

It was difficult to shoot down a B17 with a 20mm cannon. In 43/44 Germany introduced the 30mm MK108. This gun downed a B17 with 3 - 4 hits in average. Interesting would be a comparison between the 20mm MG151 and the 30mm MK 108

[@caribman10]

Again, one outcome was the DEFA.

[@izul4223]

idk if you have seen the video yet but he made a 30mm vid kzbin.info/www/bejne/mpLMe2iXp9ODotk

[@marthakrumboltz2710]

Your presentation was well worth the watch. Instead of hashing out previously shown facts in a boring fashion, the effects of these weapons had on bomber formations was more than a threat. Thank you for the straightforward presentation I had previously not considered.

[@marthakrumboltz2710]

What effect did the Mg151 have on armor? I am somewhat aware of the kanonenvogel application as it was used in the Stuka.

[@ranhat2]

Outstanding. Rich in intelligently chosen facts... Fills in many knowledge gaps and understanding. I wish it were longer with even more great material.

[@stevek8829]

Wow, some facts. A human speaking. No weird mood muzak. Even mentioning of survivor bias effecting perceived results. Survivor bias was for example, when you study returning planes for damage. You evaluate the hits and consider ways too protect those zones. BUT, those are aircraft that survived their damage. The planes that didn't survive needed the evaluation! I've heard of 20mm cannon used in aircraft since childhood, but never knew about their charge or fuse. A credit card thickness of protection.

[@JDale56]

The recovery crew of "Glacier Girl," the P-38 Lightning recovered from a Greenland glacier and restored to flying condition, removed and fired its 20mm cannon at a 55 gallon oil drum. It blasted a 2 foot diameter hole in the drum. This barrel used to be on display in the hangar where the P-38 was being restored in Middlesboro, Kentucky.

[@johnmclean6498]

Wow! Never heard of a P 38 being fitted with 20mm cannons. I thought they all got the Browning 50 cal. It would have been a fearsome fighter with cannons fitted, just like the RAF Mosquito was.

[@goldleader6074]

@@johnmclean6498 P-38 armament was four .50s and one 20mm Hispano cannon, all in the nose. The Hispanos had problems with jamming and that meant that any wing mounted Hispanos that jammed in flight, couldn't be cleared until they landed on the ground, which was a major reliability issue for the US military. Since the P-38's guns were all in the nose, a manual unjamming mechanism was installed in the cockpit so the pilot could clear the jam in air. If the Hispanos didn't have the jamming issues, you may have seen more Mustangs, Hellcats, and Corsairs armed with 20mm cannons in the wings during WWII.

[@johnmclean6498]

@@goldleader6074 Good info thanks. The Brits called the Hispano gun failures "Stoppages". They bypassed hot air from an engine to the guns in the Mossie, vital in winter/high altitude.

[@markelalagoz7363]

I saw the video you are talking about. I realized how much damage the aircraft was getting after the demonstration. Badass

[@markelalagoz7363]

@@goldleader6074 What’s interesting, we went against the British advice of not modifying the gun, but we went ahead anyway and did it

[@rickcentore2801]

I've learned something from each of your well researched and interesting videos. Thank you for posting them. (My father was one of the 197 bombers (B-24J, 44-40163, 492nd Bomb Group) shot down in June, 1944.)

[@tomg6284]

The folks who are commenting with info on each aircraft. Thank you. Awesome information gentlemen..

[@ypaulbrown]

great video and information....thank you so much.....Paul

[@darrellborland119]

Thank you for your detailed videos....As a WW2 history guy, these stories bring home what it was really like to fly...and maybe not come back.

[@mirrorblue100]

Very crisp and on point presentation - thanks.

[@johannesmichaelalhaugthoma4215]

Excellent research and presentation!! Congratulations on a great video!

[@larsrons7937]

Interesting dive into the German 20 mm cannons, I learned a lot in 8 minutes.

[@A.Mad.Lad89]

Great video! Very informative!

[@josephhradil86]

Amazingly well researched! Subscribed.

[@dusty4459]

Great no nonsense video. I have a small collection of WW2 ammunition used by aircraft and I must say pictures don't do justice. The MG 151/20 and Hispano 20mm stood next to the .50 is a huge difference, even more crazy is the size of the Mk108 30mm cannon round stood next to 20mm rounds.

[@obentophaut8693]

Great stuff, well done.

[@OtherWorldExplorers]

It was the last little bit of footage that you had of the B-17 absorbing round after round after round that I first saw as a child that got me interested in the B-17. I simply couldn't believe that it could take that much punishment and continue to fly.

[@dukecraig2402]

Yea, it actually contradicts the title of the video claiming that the German 20mm round had a "devastating" effect on the bombers, along with the statistic that's shown towards the end stating that the 20mm rounds only accounted for 4.3% of the damage to returning bombers, I understand the concept behind "survivor bias" but in the context of returning bombers even if you triple that number and give it credit for downing that percentage of bombers it's still low enough that you can't consider it to be exactly devastating, then factor in the amount of rounds on average it took hitting a bomber and that really leaves it short of something you can consider devastating. Just several weeks ago I read about reports being sent from the unit commander's up the pipeline in the Luftwaffe complaining about the lack of effectiveness of the 20mm round when shooting bombers. Another thing about the 20mm gun and I don't think he addressed this was it's range, although I can't remember what it was I do remember reading that due to the FW190's single stage supercharger on it's engine starting to lose power at 15,000 ft when they would approach a B17 from behind at their operational altitude of 25,000 ft they were so down on power and their speed was so low that for 2 minutes they'd be in range of the .50 cals of the B17's tail gunner before they were in range for their 20mm guns, and any kind of evasive maneuvering meant that they'd lose ground so they had no choice but to sit there in .50 cal fire and take it until they could start firing, how'd you like to sit in .50 cal fire for 2 minutes before you could shoot back? That'd be the longest 2 minutes of your life, supposedly that's the real reason for them adopting the frontal attack, not the lack of chin guns on the earlier B17's like most people think, that was just an added bonus. And another issue with the lack of performance of the FW190 at that altitude was with the frontal attack technique they'd only get one chance, once they made a pass from the front by the time they got turned around and considering the route they'd have to take to avoid a B17 formations defensive guns they'd never be able to get back out in front of them to set up another frontal attack, basically once behind them they'd hope for damaged stragglers they could go after. When attacks involved mixed FW190's and ME109's since the ME109's had better high altitude performance they'd use them to attack the bombers and use the FW190's to attack stragglers or fighter's that would get sucked down to lower altitudes dogfighting with the ME109's.

[@wanyelewis9667]

The muzzle velocity was so low relative to the .50 BMG that it necessitated a certain path to the target by the attacking fighter. Hard-hitting round (it should be, given its size), but low m.v., curved trajectory, limited range, and low rate of fire from the cannon itself limited its real ability in combat. Its biggest effect was against soft targets such as the bomber crews themselves. On the other hand, the six or eight fifties carried by the American fighters could throw a combined sixty or eighty bullets in one second at a target & converge at 300 yds. It was an API round weighing 710 grains and had an m.v. of 2900 fps. That would do a lot more damage to an EA. Indeed, the "buzzsaw" effect from such a system often meant that a single short burst could blow a German fighter out of the sky immediately. And Luftwaffe pilots greatest fear was attacking a large bomber formation where they could face several hundred--if not thousands--of BMG's. Much of the early to mid war attrition of those veteran pilots occurred when they were attacking bombers.

[@dobridjordje]

​@@dukecraig2402What do you think about the 30mm MK108 against the US bombers during ww2 in comparison. Also I agree, when watching gun cam footage, B17s are in 95% not breaking into small bits at all, they are flying as if unscathed by the damage they received. Now God knows what was left of the crew inside...

[@robertoorsi5771]

Also Macchi Castoldi MC 205 Veltro (italian greyhound) had two Mauser 20 mm cannons. Our ace Sgt. Maj. Luigi Gorrini in only one mission shot down one B 17 and two P 38 by alone. But in all North Italy there was only one squadron of these airplane named "Asso di Bastoni", 1st sq. Batoon Ace. It was like a mosquito on the elephant back. The squadron was surrounded by red italian partisans and the commander Maj. Adriano Visconti offered his life to save the life of his pilots. He was shot by red partisans in MIlan.

[@AiDecc]

Awesome, detailed, on topic (no unnecessary bs around). Impressive! Thank you :)

[@InExtremis23]

Extremely informative. Thank you.

[@craigsle]

Well researched and presented , learned alot from this. Good job.

[@WildBillCox13]

Interesting. Your comment about survivor bias was well presented.

[@jeffnorsegod8080]

Just found this channel, excellent research and presentation!

[@stankfaust814]

Excellent content! Liked subscribed and shared it with my old man! Keep the good stuff coming

[@B17FlyingFortress]

The B-17 at 4:10 was B-17F 42-3262 "Sweetheart" of the 388th Bomb Group. Damaged on 15 September 1943. Co-Pilot Riley F. Bissonette was uninjured. Btw: a really interesting video :)

[@santaclaus6602]

Any info on rest of crew?

[@dukecraig2402]

You sure? In the bottom left hand corner of the picture it says "...ng Dorothy" under the co-pilot's side window. You can't make out the entire first word because of the picture being cropped or it was just the edge of it in the first place but it'd probably be Darling or Flying or something along those lines.

[@B17FlyingFortress]

@@santaclaus6602 The rest of the crew also uninjured. all returned.

[@B17FlyingFortress]

​@@dukecraig2402 yes I am sure. On other pictures you can see the identical Swastika icons and a repainted, darker area, where "... Dorothy" were and replace with new art. The Noseart "Sweetheart" is clearly visible on the other picture.

[@lanceschaerer6875]

Good overview on a lesser known weapon of ww2 boss. Well done 👏 . The graph on what took out the bombers makes sense as the amount of bombers lost from 44 -45 was mostly due to flak. By then the luftwaffe was a beaten force hampered by lack of fuel and experienced pilots.

[@MrAstrojensen]

And yet, even in April '45, they managed to shoot down 125 Allied bombers. What experienced pilots they had left, were usually given the most advanced planes. Me 109k-4's, FW-TA152's, Me 262's.

[@leecrt967]

Excellent analysis. I knew you would include that final attack sequence of that B-17 getting chewed up by that Bf-110. It says it all.

[@Stew357]

Outstanding analysis and video, ty!

[@robgraham5697]

That was a very interesting video. I much appreciated your discovering material that displayed so much revealing information on the structure and effect of the round discussed. Well done.

[@WWIIUSBombers]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@mrmybentnickelworks]

I agree, this is an excellent presentation, supported by excellent research. Thank you, and best wishes for every success from London, Ontario, Canada.

[@Joe-bw2ew]

I got in a Grounded B17G at Chino Air Museum in Calif. Climbing in, I noticed how THIN the aluminum fuselage was. I thought this " skin" Won't even stop rifle round!

[@jimseviltwin1]

Fascinating! Thanks and well done !

[@TyroneSayWTF]

Nice job! A similar video comparing the shallow (but wide) penetration of the MG151/20mm rounds to the deeper (AP - but narrow) penetration of M2 .50 cal rounds would be appreciated and very interesting, i.e. a sort of compare and contrast the gunnery/ballistics practices and philosophies

[@androidemulator6952]

Great video, clear and well presented. Thanks again . :)

[@timdinch5598]

A great presentation of the facts. Simply and succinctly.

[@phuphuphnik]

Nice work. It tok a while to get this put together, I'm sure. Outstanding presentation!