WWSD 2023 - 20" DMR

[@fancyfancypunx]

The crooked ray bans are an excellent and welcome addition to this.

[@m82m107barrett]

Karl: “What optic should I use for targets at a 1000m?” Community: “The one limited to 600m, duh.”

[@InrangeTv]

Exactly. LOL

[@BurningMonkey]

its the only way the rest of us have a chance at the podium now if we could only limit RB4K to a red dot, and a shit one at that

[@BrassBashers]

600 is past the killing potential of a 5.56 anyway, no matter what grain weight or type you use. May hit past that, but it's not gonna do much unless it tumbles or strikes bone.

[@Zissou42]

Kentucky elevation.

[@509Gman]

@@Zissou42I have dialed onto target with a BDC reticle before. The reticle ended at 500 yards, and I was at a 600 yard match. Consultation with a ballistic calculator and the observation of the pit crew got all in the 6moa black. Just mark your zero before you change anything.

[@KossoffFan]

Karl, Yes, yes, YES! This is exactly the configuration I have always wanted for a WWSD build. You freakin knocked it out of the ballpark with this one. It's a damn shame that it'll be a limited run.

[@InrangeTv]

Thank you!

[@walkercustoms]

The 20" pencil profile is going to make even more come back soon.

[@donbay1220]

Definitely

[@WaterZer0]

Criterion makes 18 and 20 inch "CORE" barrels that are at 2 pounds (for the 20 inch) or slightly under. I know that's not quite a pencil as that would probably be like 28 ounces, but it's not far off.

[@Patriotusa44]

A Faxon Gunner 20" is just ever so slightly heavier. It's what I have on my A1 build and it's nice. Moving the gun around side to side is effortless.

[@joshuaespinoza8325]

@@Patriotusa44 would you say it's better or worse than the 20" pencil? I currently have a 20" gunner profile but now i'm wondering if i couldve made the gun even lighter by waiting around for a pencil

[@PARR53]

He is talking about the SDMR in the beginning of this video it’s not just an M16A4 with MK262 and a ACOG. These were built by the AMU and they had a Douglas 1/8 twist heavy match grade barrel with 12 flutes and a Daniels Defense M4 12.0 free float handguard with locking ring, national match front sight post held on by set screws rather than taper pins and the barrel had flats milled into it for the front sight base. The TA01 ACOG was the most common optic but optical sights were unit specific and the MK4 Leupold 3.5-10x40 were also used. These things held superb accuracy standards. Well under MOA. I have a clone built for me by an individual that shoots for the AMU on the reserve pistol team, is a master gunsmith in his full time profession and is familiar with these early GWOT DMRs as he was with 3rd ID (one of the original units these rifles were actually built for) during the time they were actually fielded. A standard M16A4 with MK262 and a ACOG is very accurate though but no where near as consistently accurate at the SDMR (Commonly referred to as AMU rifles in their time) were.

[@DeviantOllam]

Ah the mysterious WWSDMR... elusive yet sought by naturalists and scientists since 2020!

[@beargillium2369]

WWSDDMR

[@ISZAudio]

Absolutely the best ar-15 configuration out there. Lighter than any m4gery from the factory and accurate as all hell. M16a4 lovers are vindicated once again, but now we don't have to lug around 30 lbs of gun.

[@Pienimusta]

Poll answers were really "what would a stoner do".

[@SausagecatChannel]

Nice. Is kinda like mine. Went with a 20" faxon gunner profile for mine,so not full pencil,but not a heavy barrel either. And so far really like the balance of it with the wwsd poly lower.

[@509Gman]

We made the same rifle #twinning

[@NoChillMan]

Very cool to see a WWSD 20" I'm just finishing up my own 20" AR build

[@theblindsniper9130]

I used a KE lower to make a retro M16 style build. Some people love it, some hate it haha Not exactly a WWSD build since it uses the original A1 handguard but boy is it a fun gun

[@andycraig6905]

As far as just having irons, that's a really practical choice

[@george2113]

@@andycraig6905 practical if your eyes allow it!

[@r.gilman4261]

i'm curious, supposedly A1 uppers were more rigid than A2 uppers, is this a thing or "not enough difference to make a difference"

[@commandZee]

I had a 1.5-4x LPVO on my 20" AR chambered in 556; without a spotter past 300 yards I couldn't tell if I was hitting the steel silhouettes I was shooting at with 55gr ammo. Even at 300 yards the range had to be really quiet for me to hear the report with ear pro.

[@fcma172]

Very cool! I built a very similar upper a while ago using the Aero no forward assist upper, Faxon 17" carbin fiber hand guard, and a Faxon gunner profile 5.56 barrel. It came it at almost yhe exact same weight as your upper. It is awesome to use.

[@forrest225]

While not the best long range optic, I do think the rugged simplicity of the ACOG compliments the WWSD rifle well. I wish pencil profile 20” barrels were more readily available. Just bought an M16a1 clone and I absolutely love it.

[@skswig1]

Love the 20 inch, glad to see someone using it.

[@caseybrown5183]

I own several AR-15s. One is 16”. One is 11.5”. I also own 2 of the KE Arms polymer lowers - they have been disappointing, but with modifications I still have both in front line self defense roles. My wife’s rifle is the 16” barrel (pencil) with a V seven handguard on a KE polymer lower. …All the other AR-15s I own are 20”, one is a Faxon pencil that shoots 262 m1 to absurd levels of accuracy. M855a1 out of a 20” barrel *almost* convinced me that I don’t need an AR-10. Glad to see you offering these. 20” IS what Stoner would do.

[@gunterstraus606]

Funny, I just finished putting a 2.5-10x on a WWSD and it's been an excellen rifle to take up into the mountains

[@SoFly2H2D]

Please keep the 20" in stock! I plan on using it for my build but just don't have the $ currently. If you do end up running out, I believe an 18" version would also be great

[@TheRevoltingMan]

Faxon has a 20” gunner profile barrel I put on my WWSD, it’s still a very light barrel.

[@crazy4milsurps]

I have always opted for the 20" it was the OG

[@Bran_Nuthin]

Love the reticle on that acog.

[@TheSundayShooter]

Same reticle as the original TA01 purchased by SOCOM in the 90's

[@MedicalTape_xX]

In the spirit of "modern technologies" i would LOVE a wwsd in 6arc, if the caliber gets more popular. Imo its the future if people want to stick with ar15 scale weapons

[@jameshealy4594]

As a bolt/airgun shooter primarily, that rifle still looks quite short overall. Could you comment/make a video on how much the extra 4-9" of length actually affects things? Would love to see an inrange timed shootout between a 20/14-16/~11.5 with whatever course or obstacles you feel would illustrate the difference. I'm not planning to use a rifle indoors or in a vehicle, so how much difference would it really make to me?

[@caseybrown5183]

Depending on the ammo you use, a 20” barrel gives substantial improvements in terminal ballistics. It is also much quieter, smoother shooting, and more reliable. Jumping in and out of vehicles or having child level physical strength are the only good arguments for shorter barrels.

[@cavalieroutdoors6036]

The benefit is getting the 5.56 above 3200 FPS. More barrel length, more velocity. More velocity, more terminal damage. I wish I had been able to find an AR in the M4 profile with a 20 inch barrel, but they seem to come in 2 flavors. Standard M4 16 inch, and M16 style with fixed stock and 20 inch barrel. I know in theory I could reconfigure my AR but then I'd have a 16 inch barrel lying around doing nothing and that would bug me. So I'll probably cave and build one the way I want it at some juncture.

[@drunkenmick]

Would have preferred to see a Leupold or maybe an AccuPoint 1-4 considering how the WWSD usually seems to focus on the lightest build possible.

[@Logoscyth]

Last year, I built an 18" DMR-style upper with a Faxon gunner-profile barrel to pair with my KP-15. Nearly identical results with the 77gr IMI ammo at 100yds, even better with handloads. Went with a 2-12 scope because my eyes aren't that good. An accurate rifle doesn't have to be a pig!

[@george2113]

Please tell me more about the 77 grain cartridges

[@Logoscyth]

They're .223 / 5.56 rounds loaded with 77 grain match bullets, which are the longest ones that can fit in an AR magazine. They retain more energy over long distance than standard 55gr bullets, and are less affected by crosswinds. Generally considered a good choice for precision shooting with a standard AR.

[@mattdirks7896]

I'm curious if a heavier weight requirement makes more sense for the DMR role but I understand the "WWSD" focus. Curious to see how it works out.

[@ianbruene1529]

I built up a 20" 6.5 Grendel version. I haven't got to shoot it much due to recent hilarity, but it feels wonderful in the hand.

[@TimberwolfCY]

Ammunition def makes a difference. In the Faxon it *hates* what I have a ton of: Fed XM193, despite my old Ruger being a tack-driver with it. Did some reading and bought some Hornady/Federal 'Frontier' 5.56 M193, and man, groups awesome now. I also tried the IMI and was surprised to find it groups nearly as well with almost no change in zero. So needless to say I'll be piling those for a while now. I've thought off-and-on about the 262 and other heavier-grain stuff but I'm a baller on a budget and prefer to try to stick to one bullet weight for all my gear, but it's good to see such good results out of it for future reference. And besides just watching you talk about nearly anything is entertaining and informative, so regardless thanks for the upload!

[@Adam31778]

I just built a 20" with the Faxon Gunner barrel. Do you have any concerns about the barrel heating and groups loosening with a barrel that much longer? Or do you have a thicker barrel to compensate?

[@PhycoKrusk]

Part of the reason they aren't as concerned with that is that while POI might changed with a pencil barrel, the ones they have selected have a _consistent_ change (e.g. if POI shifts to the left by 1 MOA when the barrel heats up, it will _always_ shift left by 1 MOA. When Stoner looked at pencil barrels when designing the AR-10/15, the POI would shift inconsistently and it was decided that consist accuracy of the rifle was more important than the weight savings). Of course, this was on the CDR configuration that was optimized for engagements out to 300 yards (and possibly out to 500). On a DMR when your engagement distance is beyond 600, a 1 MOA shift in any direction is _significant._ However, Karl's keeping the WWSD mentality for this, so I suspect the plan is to stick with the pencil barrel and use some Kentucky windage if needed.

[@caseybrown5183]

How many loaded mags are you carrying to the gunfight?

[@Adam31778]

@@caseybrown5183 Ive only been to one shooting competition for revolvers so my knowledge is limited. But I'd like to go to some rifle matches. Going off the equipment for the next brutality match, it looks like you can expect to shoot 4 mags per stage.

[@sirjacobthe8]

Thank you Karl for making this video! I really appreciate your hard work and I’ve found this project really interesting over the years. At one point, you and Ian said that the Ballistic Advantage barrels were still heavier than the Faxon and made it sound like the Faxon were still the only option for a true WWSD build. Obviously you’re position on that has changed. Is that just because of supply issues or has something else also influenced your decision?

[@InrangeTv]

These are a one-off run from Ballistic Advantage, at this point they're not making this as a regular off the shelf barrel - we were able to acquire them for this project until they run out, or decide to make them again.

[@Scott-qq9jd]

​@@InrangeTvWhy must you continue to tempt me? 😉 This one has me curious. I hope it's more than just one production run.

[@509Gman]

my two cents, I did make a 20” rifle with a Faxon Gunner and found it to be quite overgassed. Currently using an H3 buffer and Sprinco Blue spring. If I had to do it over again I would use a BA barrel because of this.

[@teggy689]

I think a 2.5-10 power optic would have been ideal. Something similar to what was used on the Mk12 SPR.

[@petesheppard1709]

Nice ejection pattern!

[@xgford94]

Love the Viking Tan, had many of my own over the years

[@onecoolguy4526]

I really hope this becomes a permanent addition to the WWSD project!

[@bigstickstudios8329]

went with 18 inch "gunner" profile my self just stupid accuracy, almost boring to shoot. I'm sure you'll have a fantastic round with that.

[@kylejohnson4340]

I wonder if a carbon fiber barrel would be a better alternative to the pencil in a dmr role.

[@jg-ub4ek]

I was looking at those as well for a 16inch build but there was still a pretty massive difference in weight. At that point going to a decent quality hansen profile barrel probably would make more sense for 1/3 the price.

[@AzayBae]

I really want one of these down the line. I think the idea of a 20 inch Wwsd is nice.

[@NunyaBesnas]

Had the Cross air on my m4 service rifle. Loved it so much more than the Chevron I got later in my next unit.

[@pmgn8444]

I voted for the 1-8 LVPO! Looking forward to see how it does in the competition! I've got a 1-8 LVPO on my 20-in DMR upper build. Need to consider getting a WWSD lower.

[@magnusskipton7067]

So why the ballistic advantage barrel instead of a faxon?

[@SinistralRifleman]

Availability and gas port size. Personnel turn over at Faxon made the WWSD program less of a priority for barrel allocation, and their gas ports on midlength barrels were 0.003 larger than standard for reliability with steel case ammo. This made them over gassed for everything else. Many people used H2 weight buffers with Faxon barrels as a result. BA has been a consistent reliable supplier to KE Arms for 8 years and the gas ports are the correct size for normal brass cased ammo.

[@wbryan03]

This is what I planed to assemble with my son when he’s older. We have the lower now but I wanted a 20” pencil barrel for him to hunt and learn with.

[@CDOES]

A beautiful setup. This thing is begging for something like the VX5-HD 2-10 with a cds setup for that load.

[@JohnHabbinga]

I put together same spec rifle, except with a Ballistic Advantage 1-12 twist pencil profile barrel that I purchased from Brownells. I think you can still get those barrels. It shoots well, but I’m not a fan of the rekluse trigger. I can swap it to a mil-spec lower with a cheaper cartridge style trigger from Aim Surplus and it feels much better. I’ve only had it out on hot days and the barrel does heat up quickly. 20” does produce great velocities. In fact, I usually measure speeds that exceed those posted on the box, which are usually measured with a 24” barrel.

[@schonka2]

Interesting that the community overall wanted to see an acog. I feel like such a modern rifle design deserves a more modern optic. For a DMR surely an lpvo or something like 3-10x42.

[@fireline4765]

It is my firm belief that 20" (500mm) should be the standard length for all combat rifles. Just my take.

[@pbbananas]

KE arms should consider making a version of their lower with an A5 length buffer tube and rifle spring. Not much downside to this for any barrel length, just slows the system down for better function. It would pair very well with a 20”.

[@SinistralRifleman]

Q: Can I use an A5 Buffer? A: No you cannot, it is too long for using with standard rifle caliber uppers. We did not design the lower to work with A5 buffers for two reasons. The first is that they are not as commonly available as carbine buffers. The second is that if we did use a spacer system so either carbine or A5 would be used end users would invariably lose the spacer and damage their lowers by using a carbine buffer in an A5 length tube causing the bolt carrier to over travel and impact the receiver.

[@BrentonJames1986]

Hey Karl! What's the weight of the rifle as it's configured here? Thanks, man.

[@Ducaso]

I know the Acog is the meme choice, but I was really looking forward to seeing how it does with an lpvo.

[@Howie262]

I’ll end up buying one of these but I would have preferred an option for 1:12 twist. Going back to the velocity principle of trying to get that 55gr at 3300 fps.

[@noraye2500]

All the WWSD barrels are 1:7 There's literally no reason to have a 1:12 unless you were just building an M16A1 clone to the letter

[@eddyguizonde401]

Karl reinvents the laser pointer, with just as much recoil as the original

[@lzxray6781]

I can't believe that after the "experts" realized their mistake on the pencil barrel and advised their superiors of it, they just went ahead and left the unnecessary weight on the end of the barrel. Correctly named it the Government profile, how fitting.

[@cannonlove2]

20” master race I am here for it! Quit patreon getting harassed with the elitism there but I still appreciate the work and stoners approach current. Now go forth and do AR10 with WWSD and I’ll pre order

[@InrangeTv]

I'm sorry to see you go, we've actually made a lot of changes on the Discord - if that's what you're referring to. Every supporter that leaves moves InRange one step further to an inability to be sustainable. :(

[@Georgewilliamherbert]

@@InrangeTv Ain’t going anywhere. Keep up the good work.

[@JohnCBobcat]

This may be nigh on heresy, I realize in advance, as it's starting to stray from the "lightest possible setup" ethos. Having thrown out my sheet anchor, though, is this a possible use-case for a profile somewhat like the Faxon Gunner? A little bit heavier to delay the onset of high barrel temps, with the weight added behind the gas block where it has the best chance of helping rigidity at any temp. I'd also be curious if the Primary Arms SLx 5x micro-prism optic has potential here. Not as indestructible as the TA31 ACOG, I'd imagine, but also a bit more compact and a couple ounces lighter, with an extra diameter of magnification to boot.

[@andresochoa8961]

If this was covered previously I must’ve missed it, what prompted the change from Faxon to BA for barrel supplier?

[@andresochoa8961]

Never mind I’m late to the party and scrolled down some more

[@spd579]

😀OUTSTANDING! Yes, I am happy to see this! Yes, the 20" is what this system was designed around. Why change it? Pencil thin? Of course. Lite weight, is what this project was all about. Now a product, that standard must continue! I look forward to the brutality match and this rifles performance evaluation, when the match is completed. I noticed the pattern of ejection was at the 2 o'clock. I'm guessing that was the 55gr ammo. Was that the same with the 77gr? If so, is the gas port in the barrel larger? Yes, I remember that story. The head shot investigations. LMAO! Also, the OTM freak outs by the JAG's! Those whom are clueless, should ask questions of those whom know and learn from the answers given.

[@Georgewilliamherbert]

I would love one of these in 6mm ARC, but can’t find light barrels.

[@anythreeletters]

What the hell is flying by the camera at 1:00? A bug?

[@Jackedhobbit]

Very cool. Using an Acog with anything other than a chevron reticle just seems odd to me. But it’s a sweet setup you got there and I’m certain you’ll do well with it.

[@InrangeTv]

I'm not. The targets at this event go beyond the maximum range of the BDC. :p

[@Jackedhobbit]

@@InrangeTv I’ve seen you shoot. Might need to use some Kentucky windage on them long ones. Maybe give it 3 shots to land one then move on. I don’t think I’ve ever shot past 500. Best of Luck to you.

[@balancedfordaylight1]

any chance for a 20 inch CDR upper for the poors ??????

[@Beazabull]

The X above the target is a bit confusing. Is it a hit marker or meant to draw our eyes to the target?

[@InrangeTv]

To show you where the target is.

[@rdsii64]

Would I be able to use that handguard to build my own WWSD upper?

[@24kachina]

Great video as usual, Karl, thanks for it. I tried to catch a glimpse but could not see the trigger. Which KE model is that build, and do you like it? Flat or curved? Thanks.

[@InexorWoW]

Do you have issues with the magpul ejection port cover and the PDQ lever not locking from the spring pressure?

[@509Gman]

I have both and have not experienced any such thing

[@akmjolnir-v4r]

What are your thoughts on the SAM-R of the same period?

[@XZLR8N]

I did the 20" gunner profile vs the pencil...I feel I made a mistake

[@toxeusd.m.6043]

What mistake, sir?

[@caseybrown5183]

The gunner is more accurate with a variety of ammo. The pencil requires more testing for optimum ammo, and more break-in. I know some don’t believe that is a thing, but mine demonstrated that tendency.

[@XZLR8N]

@@caseybrown5183 thanks for the assurance. I just loved the lack of heft with a pure pencil profile

[@509Gman]

The only gripe I have about my Gunner is the gas port. Great barrel if you use an AGB

[@Logoscyth]

Faxon gunner barrels are still lighter than some manufacturer's "pencil" barrels. It's a fine choice, don't sweat the extra couple ounces.

[@phillipsturholm8156]

Why a pencil barrel for the DMR and why no a BLK LBL bipod if you are dead set on a bipod setup?

[@InrangeTv]

The black label bipod is not detachable and adds significant weight.

[@koffeekage]

be nice to see Criterion Core Barrels on this

[@andrwblood9162]

It's a really interesting project. I am just a layman in all this, but whenever I think about precision rifles and efforts to lower their weight I believe that's counter to the idea of a precision rifle. Even using 5.56, while yeah the squad DMR should be dialed in with the rest of the squad, it creates more trade-offs than advances. The SR-25 might be the best you can do with a wwsd dmr rifle or at least be a better base than an AR-15. But like I said, I'm really interested in seeing see how this project goes.

[@stevegee218]

KP-15 lower + A3 style 20" flat top upper + Prism optic makes a good Canada C7 type of rifle on a budget. You still save over 1lbs. from a regular fixed stock A2 lower.

[@mtnbound2764]

ive been wanting to do a 20" build

[@TheCoyote808]

Exactly the configuration I was looking for. If I have the money for it, it'd be something I'd out my money in for. Unfortunately, stuck trying to just make enough to give the government their cut and put food in my belly right now. Such is life when you uproot and move a few thousand miles and an ocean away from your home for a CHANCE at a better life.

[@tbrowniscool]

"The great war on terror" 👌👌🏳🏳

[@Echowhiskeyone]

WWSD-DDE. What Would Stoner Do-Death Dealer Edition.

[@fa-ajn9881]

Wish a longer handguard came with this (literally for looks)

[@bobbobsquarepants888]

Sorry if I missed it, what’s the overall weight with this setup?

[@Ghatbkk]

Really interested in seeing how this does.

[@samuelcarstens6152]

Regarding the ephemeral question WWSD and given he could choose, would Eugene choose 556?

[@InrangeTv]

He designed 5.56. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pHWTm4l4jr1qrbc

[@polaritypictures]

When is the 308 version coming out?

[@asherdie]

When is the .308 WWSD coming out?

[@ditto1958]

Can a person buy one of these? If do, where?

[@SinistralRifleman]

Purchase now at KE Arms

[@djdrack4681]

Very exciting approach... but an ACOG optic? Sure there might be history of this having some success, but even a 1-8 LPVO would seem to be a better choice. After all static 3x/4x was something the earlier-to-mid century rifles had for scopes. Yes, it works but it isn't flexible, not the best for 300m+ or CQB. should be interesting to see how you perform with it and keep up the great work.

[@InrangeTv]

I didn't make the choice, the Patreons did.

[@djdrack4681]

@@InrangeTv Ah. gotchya. +1 for running what they asked. Hey it could be worse; they didn't ask you to run a Red Rider. lol

[@lydiahanke]

So Cool!

[@262fire3]

Rock the 20 inch barrel have fun.

[@acarrillo8277]

KE ever going to make a KP-10?

[@SinistralRifleman]

Q: Are you going to make a .308 or KP-10? A: No, not unless someone wants to invest $500,000.00 or Order 10,000 units. .308 ARs are not standardized enough with enough available uppers to justify hundreds of thousands of dollars in tooling cost for us unless there was a large commitment up front from an OEM customer.

[@acarrillo8277]

@@SinistralRifleman Understood, thank you for the clear and concise reply. I appreciate it.

[@PhycoKrusk]

I'm always interested to see if Karl has chosen an audience filter for the video, and what it is. Crooked aviators with a bent arm it is.

[@ryanvargas4889]

We need the WWSD-Dissipator or PDW.

[@Scott-qq9jd]

Not much reason to do a dissipator. The standard WWSD carbine uppers already have full-length handguards. And they do make a 10.3" WWSD upper, but I doubt we'll see any factory SBRs from KE Arms as long as SBRs are federally regulated.

[@ryanvargas4889]

@@Scott-qq9jd Thanks. Not going to lie I’ve had about six beers and just got excited.

[@rhy1013]

The only thing I don’t like about about the WWSD rifles is that the KE Arms lower is a fixed A1 length buttstock using a carbine buffer system; worst of both worlds.

[@chrisspencer6502]

1000 yards, uncle harry says hold my beer. Looking forward to seeing a 9 hole speed run

[@InrangeTv]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y4LSgq2kgc1lb7M

[@jg-ub4ek]

Neat!!

[@rlbadger1698]

Send to 9 hole review. Rifle with the good ammo.

[@InrangeTv]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y4LSgq2kgc1lb7M

[@schergood7877]

nice!

[@SurlyMontanan]

“Great War on Terror.” lol.🤦‍♂️

[@danieldz7906]

0:40 This ammo looks like GGG

[@andrewmccain8297]

Can wait for desert brutality with you running this setup

[@trazynstrinkets]

Damn they made the All-American a real thing

[@jeffp.8718]

The WWSD2A MK12

[@mtnbound2764]

im thinking a 20" with a 1-6 or 1-8 would be about perfect.

[@W1ckedRcL]

ACOG is THE superior rifle combat optic.

[@509Gman]

ACOG is good, ACOG is reliable. If it loses zero, I can still hit you with it.

[@george2113]

Ironic that people were worried about the fate of terrorists?

[@andrewmn3024]

sweet rifle