Wylex Mini Consumer Unit, RCBO and SPD

[@GaryB007]

Good to see JW seems to be back on a regular basis.

[@andreim841]

It sure is...

[@BenCos2018]

agreed

[@barrydonaldson]

I concur!

[@jasondavies1818]

Always good to see JW back on KZbin. Excellent and informative, as usual!!👍🏻👍🏻

[@theoriginalwelderpaul]

Good to see you back John, we appreciate the videos!

[@dollarama8652]

RCBO + SPD + JW = 👍🏼⚡

[@christopherhulse8385]

Great to see you back again.

[@fje1948]

Fantastic to see your videos again. Was exactly looking for that yesterday. Many Thanks!

[@faisalhussain589]

Thank you for returning back to youtube JW

[@shaun30-3-mg9zs]

Good to see you back,John

[@chrisdaly4443]

Great to see you back JW

[@e5Group]

Surging to watch my man JW. 💪👍

[@felenov]

In Switzerland, I often see installations with a breaker in the main panel going to where the EVSE is and next to the EVSE they would have a similar arrangement. We really like our ability to switch things on and off. Banks of isolators are a common sight here.

[@keirstitt8277]

I've built a few Fusebox units with C63 MCBs as an alternative to a switched fuse and the added benefit of SPD near the supply point. The C63 maintains selectivity for B32 [or even B63] devices downstream. What I would love is a C63 S-Type 300mA Double Pole RCBO.

[@JasperJanssen]

B63 vs C63 isnt’t selective. That is, it’s only going to be selective about overloads that are high but not very high. Somewhere between 3-10x nominal. Regular overloads and short circuits they both react exactly the same to so either one or even both might trip.

[@keirstitt8277]

@JasperJanssen I think you've got that the wrong way around. A B63 and C63 have precisely the same overload curve but a different fault trip. The fault trip regions don't overlap unless the fault current is high enough to trip both - because there's no time delay on any MCB unlike with many MCCBs. But if you're pulling a fault likely to trip a B63 and C63 in series then your typical 80A BS88 is likely to be going too. Remember that whilst we consider faults as sudden short circuits of negligible impedance. Real world faults take time to develop. All Insulation takes time to ionise into something conductive.

[@johnryan5805]

Thanks john.

[@TestGearJunkie.]

Good to see you back JW, a little excessive bare copper on those neutral wires, I thought..?

[@timballam3675]

Good to see you back JW. Just had a Hager 3 phase board installed in the living room and the SPD(s) are all fitted without fuses to the left of the main isolation. Now should I fit LEDs behind the glass door to indicate total power usage?

[@saveygirl8198]

@johnward you videos are the best of the best

[@abunaserchy5321]

I really love your videos ❤

[@alanwhite4427]

Hi JW, a quick question maybe you could help me with. In regard to DC circuits, is there a difference between using a solid conductor or using a multi stranded conductor ? This is in regard to model railway using up-to say 25v DC at about 6 Amps for points, Lights etc. Also DCC train controllers that output 16 Volt up-to 8 Amps. Pulse Width Modulation. Not quite DC nor AC but more like On/Off pulses of DC. Any help in this regard would be appreciated. Thanks for your time. Alan

[@jwflame]

No difference, and there is no difference on AC either. There is something called 'skin effect' with AC where current tends to be distributed towards the outer surface of a conductor, but at 50Hz that's only relevant for large conductors of at least 250mm², or for much higher frequencies. Even there, a stranded conductor acts like a solid core one, unless the strands are individually insulated.

[@alanwhite4427]

@@jwflame Hi JW, many thanks for your quick reply, it is very much appreciated. What a great and detailed answer, thanks again. Regards, Alan

[@paftrain1]

It would be useful if you explained where the inputs and outputs were. I have a unit for my shed but don’t know how to connect it to the mains supply.

[@jasonwatson9011]

At least that unit has a proper din rail, the bigger Wylex boards have done away with the lower half of the rail so the equipment hangs on the top of the rail only and is secured by the screw to the bus bar. I suppose you can easily check then if you have missed it (I still inspect with a mirror anyway) as it will lift off the busbar if its been misfitted.

[@christopherhulse8385]

I modified my 11 way Wylex board with a proper DIN rail for better security.

[@IcenI_Koi]

Thanks for the info John.👍

[@jaessak3463]

Informative video. Thank you.

[@johnburns4017]

The RCBO is L&N. Why don't UK manufacturers have the twin L&N busbars to do away with a N terminal bar! Schneider (French) and Garo (Swedish) sell in the UK Continental DP CUs with three row cases using DP disconnectors like RCBO and MCBs. The regs need updating to mandate DP disconnectors, but they are available. So easy to fit with no clutter or wires. And all DP!

[@jwflame]

Mainly cost. Whoever starts selling those in the UK would have to educate people as to what they are and why they should buy them, and for domestic it's unlikely anyone would bother. Such things are already available for commercial boards, such as the Acti9 Isobar P. www.se.com/uk/en/work/products/product-launch/acti9-isobar-p/

[@johnburns4017]

@@jwflame Thx. They are sold in the UK: Schneider and Garo and ABB. *The Schneider multi row Continental type but metal consumer unit is even sold by S'fix now,* so looks promising. I don't _think_ they sell the DP MCB/RCBO/RCD reversible breakers - need to look harder. The DP reversible can accept the twin L&N comb busbars. They sell the twin L&N combs. The Schneider double pole Easy9 RCBO's/MCBs for example are reversible - bottom feed or top feed. This means they can be fitted with a top feed using the L&N twin busbar (comb), or a bottom feed using a single L busbar (the British way). Having the comb busbar means less wiring and a less cluttered consumer unit, that is easier and quicker to fit. And safer as less connections. In France they connect the rows via solid vertical busbar, no stripping and threading 25mm cable to connect the rows. All a part of the kit. Seconds to assemble. Some other makers use multi row metal CUs but not the twin L&N bus bar and DP breakers. Fusebox make the metal two and three bank cabinet, but using the inferior British single busbar setup. In short, a fake - a pretender. I believe Garo sell a plastic inset multi row CU but needs to go inside a metal enclosure to conform. As I have stated, the regs need to be changed ASAP. Not having DP interrupters at CUs is asinine, and totally irresponsible by HMG and his regs.

[@johnburns4017]

@@jwflame Search KZbin on: _Dodgy European Electrics? An Electricians view of Consumer Units in Portugal & France_ Shows a Schneider CU being installed near completion. Using *pushfit* breakers. Nice.

[@chriskirby3337]

A uk company called SBS sell dual bussbar boards and dp rcbo. Nice units and a pleasure to fit

[@johnburns4017]

@@chriskirby3337 Thanks. Yes, SBS Trade Sales. The web site could be better with views of inside CUs, etc. I never knew they had multi-row CUs. It _seems_ the multi row CUs come with a two separate Live and Neutral busbars. LeGrand have vertical busbars (insulated rods) connecting the rows, it does not show if they have such a system. Looks like they sell only DP RCBOs, which is encouraging. I never saw any AFDDs for sale. The continental system of twin L&N busbars makes it so much neater reducing cluttered, ugly, wiring inside CUs cases. Even an idiot cannot mess it up too much.

[@JohnDundee-el2ro]

John this is about heat safety fixings AMD 2 for cables if there is a basket tray carrying a lot of cables fitted to L shaped metal wall brackets along an escape corridor 50 metres long and the brackets were fitted onto these 5.5 red rawlplugs would the rawlplugs melt if there was a fierce fire and all basket tray fall down and block escape corridor stopping people from getting out

[@jwflame]

Yes, plastic wall plugs can melt. Small red plugs and screws are not appropriate for fixing a substantial amount of tray, concrete anchors or resin studs would be more appropriate.

[@johnryan5805]

Hi John if there was a surge in the main consumer unit would you still need to leave in the surge in this unit.

[@jwflame]

Not usually. Might be required if the smaller unit was located a significant distance away.

[@johnryan5805]

Thanks John On another issue any chance you could do a video on wiring single phasechangeover switches.thanks

[@RaxTubeYou]

Can a unit, similar to this, be used to retrofit an SPD outside of an existing CCU. For example a unit with an SPD and Main Switch that takes in the meter tails, then can supply the existing main CCU? Great video !

[@jwflame]

Yes, although the RCBO isn't needed for that. Wylex have a premade unit for the purpose, REC2SPD, www.edwardes.co.uk/products/wylex-rec2spd-100a-rec-c-w-type-2-spd-insulated similar available from other manufacturers such as www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/MKYS5704SMET.html

[@MM2009]

so that is CU or isolator with SPD, doest it need to be in metal cover??

[@johnryan5805]

On another issue could you do a video on wiring a changeover switch thanks

[@garyloudon2417]

Hi JW wylex sp or dp rcbos how can you tell which on you have just by looking doesn’t it say on them

[@jwflame]

Compact RCBOs are switched neutral. The tall versions are not.

[@garyloudon2417]

Thanks for the answer I think mines are single pole with switched neutral miniature type B which I thought was most common in uk but when I went to buy one from Screwfix they only have double pole miniature type b rcbos can you tell by looking what ones you definitely have as they don’t actually say on the front of them .

[@Михаиллеви]

Still got the green table ! The local library was very accomodating ! 😅

[@dg2908]

Always thought that 'High Integrity' is something of a misnomer. An installer with integrity wouldn't fit them...

[@olly7673]

High integrity= A 3rd neutral bar. In fairness though it meant the new fangled RCBO could be utilised on the"old" boats

[@ratgreen]

Wait so the SPD is in parallel with the RCBO or in series? I'm confused.

[@Thats_Mr_Random_Person_to_you]

Parallel. The SPD is basically just a suitably rated MOV and a few extra bits, which connects across Live and Neutral. All other loads are then parallel to that. Any transient voltage then appearing above the MOV rating is dumped via the MOV to Neutral (converted to heat through the MOV) thus clamping the Live to all other devices to the nominal 240v. That's the reason its supposed to go as close to the main breaker as it is then 'closest' to the incoming supply. MOVs are 'reusable' in the sense that once the transient is gone they stop dumping the excess and return to being high impedance. However, they do degrade each time they are used hence if a suitably large spike occurs you have to replace it, or if over time enough smaller transients have degraded it to the point of deterioration you also have to replace. I'm not exactly sure how they measure that as it needs to be a reliable measurement.

[@ratgreen]

@@Thats_Mr_Random_Person_to_you Gotcha, thanks for explaining

[@Mike_5]

Nice expert review here JW but is the SPD to protect the vehicle or the Home from surges?

[@Richardincancale]

Listen between 6:12 and 6:20 for the answer!

[@Mike_5]

@@Richardincancale Good point but some EV vehicles actually create a reverse spike voltage surge during the charging phase hence my question

[@Richardincancale]

@@Mike_5 Oh that sounds strange. The charger circuit is essentially just a large switch mode power supply to step up the voltage to 400 (or 800) volts and rectify it, so not sure how reverse spikes would be generated ? But the SPD would protect against that too I suppose as it’s just a pair of MOVs wired to ground.

[@jwflame]

It will do both, as it's connected to the same supply for all of it. If the property already had surge protection fitted, you wouldn't need another one.

[@Mike_5]

@@Richardincancale The vehicle's charging circuit can produce large inverse currents that can affect the home's supply have you never experienced that before?

[@Xclub40X]

Joke of the day Q: who invented electricity? A: a very bright spark indeed

[@andreasbentz6106]

Hi John! Alsways interesting to see how things are done different in different countries. Two quick questions: 1. For the RCBO I assume due to the low price of the unit, that the B stands for the B characteristic of the MCB-part and not for a B-Type of the RCD part. Does that mean, that in the UK a normal Type A RCD is sufficient for EVSE? In Germany a Type B, that protects also when DC is present, is mandatory in that situation (as well as in Photovoltaic installations). 2. You are absolutely right to chose a 40A RCBO. The three-phase MCBs we use over here (yep, we charge three phase up to 22 kW) are limited to 80% of the rated maximum current if used under constant load. However you lost me on the wiring. You recommend 6mm². Acoording to my tables, we need 10mm² for 40A? Thanks and greetings from Germany Andreas

[@jwflame]

Yes, it's a Type B circuit breaker, and a Type A RCD. Type A RCDs can be used for EVSE but only where the EVSE also contains a Type B or equivalent DC detection. If not then a Type B RCD would be required. Most of those available in the UK have the DC detection built in. 6mm² armoured cable is rated to well over 40A on single phase, example: www.batt.co.uk/upload/files/table4d4_1540217869.pdf 3 phase is available for commercial/industrial locations, but the majority of homes only have single phase available. Larger sizes would be used for longer distances, but that's not likely on a domestic installation.

[@johnryan5805]

Hi John Nice unit I guess the car charger would have the load balancing kit built in. Ps can you do a video o change over switches for a stand by generator for a domestic house .

[@saveygirl8198]

@@jwflameyour videos are the best of the best.

[@andljoy]

I have something very similar when why solar was installed.

[@TradieTrev]

Never understood why your panels would need to come prewired, surely you lot own a bit of flex and bootlaces.

[@jwflame]

Type testing and approval, which requires that everything in it is supplied by the manufacturer, so it's identical to the one used for the test.

[@TradieTrev]

​@@jwflame What tests are they doing that you lot can not? Also never understood why the main switch is on right also when logical we read left to right. I do like our QLD Aussie electrics compared to UK's considering I can do metering and build your board from scratch.

[@jwflame]

@@TradieTrevPlacing the assembled unit into a test jig, applying 16kA into a short circuit fault and seeing if it survives or not. Repeat for other combinations of devices from that manufacturer. Covered in Annex ZB of BS EN 61439- 3. People can assemble their own panels and whatever else, but in doing so they become the manufacturer of the assembly and responsible for it's design, which isn't something the majority of electricians want to be involved with. Consumer units can be obtained with the main switch on the left or the right. Or vertical with the switch at the bottom.

[@mnboh3]

Hi John! Top video once again 👏🏻 Do you own an EV? If so, what make and which EV Charger did you opt for? I take it you installed yourself? Kind regards Matt

[@2Sorts]

John owns an electric van. He did a video about it a while back.

[@jwflame]

Citroen e-dispatch. MyEnergi Zappi, mainly because that was a decent option and was actually available at the time, which was October 2021 during a massive shortage of many electronic items.

[@mnboh3]

@jwflame fantastic choice in charger! Zappi's are definitely my favourite to install, I'm a fan of their multi linkable tech using a Harvi for remote CT clamps for generation ans storage, also the Eddi for heating water for free 🙌🏻 What are your thoughts on this? Matt

[@olly7673]

@@jwflame not a trick question but from what you said in kzbin.info/www/bejne/nYu5qWp9l6aqosk..... at 25'50", was your choice of Zappi (which I consider to be in the top 5 in the UK anyway) down to it being the best alternative, or something else?

[@Swwils]

Not even 30 seconds in and already smashed people calling it EV charging.

[@olly7673]

Indeed.... the clue is in the equipment title... EVSE... SUPPLY- to the vehicle's charging hardware.

[@Swwils]

@@olly7673 do you mean an EV charger?

[@olly7673]

@@Swwils the charger is in the car,..... all we ,as electricians, do is install the Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment.. Having said that the great JW referred to the equipment as the "charger" 3 years ago here ..... kzbin.info/www/bejne/nYu5qWp9l6aqosk (10'15") when it in fact just the supply.

[@jwflame]

The actual charger is in the car and the device on the wall is an EVSE. However they are already sold as 'chargers' everywhere and most people will call them that, even though it's technically not a charger. It's just another one of those things like lightbulbs.

[@olly7673]

@jwflame I beat you to it john. 😆

[@BruhImNotDeadYet]

MORTIS

[@alexpaul6054]

There is exposed copper..