"We Had No Idea What We Were Doing" - Dave & Dan on Game of Thrones | Podcast Discussion

[@eccentriceli3541]

Insert: "Aww shit, here we go again " right here

[@abookamongsthemanypj7140]

@@sneakymia1 Don't hate. We all love her. It's never going away.

[@adamlubben2504]

@sean bowman How would you know? Theyre not out yet

[@b1bbscraz3y]

@sean bowman of course we know the Night King in the show and the Night's King aren't the same. but we don't know yet if the 13th Lord Commander will make an appearance or be a part of the Others in the books, if he lived this long

[@ignitetheinferno1858]

D&D: We let the actors define their characters. Absolutely not. Maybe they allowed them so leeway on how they acted, but you heard again and again from people like Maisie Williams, Nikolai Coster-Waldu, Emilia Clarke, Kit Harrington and so on that they absolutely hated much of what was done. And attempts to argue changes was meet with "Shut up, your the actor, we're the showrunners."

[@HarryBuddhaPalm]

you're

[@christina9725]

There is some truth to that. Nikolai did say that in an interview. Good point.

[@stormcutter59]

Yeah you can't take these guys at face value. Their is always the likelihood they want to save face on camera, especially in show business. It takes an ego for most people to get where they are in Hollywood and D&D sound no different. Actually they sound worse than most.

[@artysarryn9111]

They gave the final speech, by Tyrion, just like their interview for a GOT screenwriter. "Who's better off writing than someone who doesn't want to write?"

[@ghostbdrpp9635]

In the end they made the show for people who reacted to in in bars, they made it simple by cutting any intricacies, magic anything of interest.

[@turtleanton6539]

Sad

[@Bigkingmonster408]

@Ben Daulton it's a KZbin channel that posted "reactions" at a bar for Game Of Thrones.

[@b1bbscraz3y]

exactly. it's been that way since season 5 actually. the fight between Brienne and the Hound was complete fan service. not saying that it was bad, but it was obvious fan service. people in the bars just cheered every time they saw a dragon and every time there was fire. they started rejecting logic and making the show for those people

[@nutyyyy]

Cutting some of the magic was a good call. Its far more difficult be ambitious or mystical about magic in a visual medium. In a book you can describe something from the PoV of a character and the reader may not know if its truly magic or an illusion. That being said there was a lot of interesting book material that could have been included.

[@johnvanderliden2175]

They made the later seasons for easily pleased, simple minded leftists who adore low quality stories and characters like in the Avengers movies.

[@nickkoch3467]

So many good actors and actresses, but my favorite is probably Charles Dance

[@noreehix5714]

That man brings so much authority to every scene.

[@b1bbscraz3y]

one of the most perfect castings in history

[@AVerySillySausage]

Honestly he's not that good of an actor, he has a good presence but it was more just down to good casting. Charles Dance has the same mannerisms and way of speaking in every single role he's in. You will never not see Charles Dance when watching him. He's no Gary Oldman. This is probably fandom cliche at this point but Alfie Allen is more talented than Charles Dance and has a really good career ahead of him if he plays his cards right.

[@johnnyskinwalker4095]

@@AVerySillySausage Yea but Oldman is the same in all his roles too, it's just that the roles he always plays is the crazy guys(except in the Batman movies) so it looks more challengin. Alfie Allen was the same in the majority of Thrones, he had that sad pathetic traumatized look. He wasn't laughing, he wasn't being cold. He was always with that Reek face. Most of the time with actors I think versatility is overrated, the key is to be convincing.

[@AVerySillySausage]

@@johnnyskinwalker4095 Disagree. Compare Oldman in something like the Nolan Batman trilogy, Dracula and True Romance, all completely different. He plays a lot of intense characters but they all have different mannerisms, ways of speaking etc. Alfie Allen kind of went through 3 distinct "stages". Original cocky Theon(but with internal conflict even at his worse), then he transformed into full on Reek then kind of ended up between the two. The key thing though is how different the characters are to his own, how he comes across in interviews is nothing like any of them, he's quite reserved and comes across as quite shy. His body language is different from Theon's completely. That's the sort of stuff I notice a lot. When you look at Charles Dance, most of those little mannerisms that we associated with Tywin are really just Charles Dance mannerisms. So for me "good acting" only really jumps out to me after I see interviews with the actors. It's like the difference between "emoting" and acting. When I say Alfie Allen is good actor I'm not just thinking about his intense emotional moments. It's like just having a casual calm conversation with either Theon or Alfie would be completely different.

[@jonnieharrison5665]

They thought if they had beautiful shots and sets and enough shock factor they could carry it to the end with no story 🤦🏻‍♀️

[@ElectromagNick]

I'm gonna have to disagree, David Benioff has gone on record saying themes are unnecessary in storytelling and that they only matter in middle school book reports.

[@miyoko_17]

Absolutely *LOVE* (read: heavy sarcasm) that in the same interview, they simultaneously give credit to & then shit on the fandom -- They loved "fan sites" at the beginning of making GOT (talking abt casting Jason), but then hated/resented the fan sites for "critiques" of how the show was progressing & completely ignored them bc it "upset" Benioff...🙄 In so many words, finally admitting that they "dumbed down" the themes/elements of GOT, for themselves as the writers, but under the guise of "we wanted to appeal to NFL watchers & moms; we wanted mass appeal" 😒 I'm sure GRRM saw all of this unfolding, but I'd really like his honest reaction to this D&D panel.

[@leodouskyron5671]

No “toning down the fantasy element” did not help GoT and the counter to show how that did not matter is called the MCU. Comics have a huge dose of fantasy in them as well as the fantastic. Kiss D&D if you must but honestly they did some things to make a success of the nepotism that got them the gig but they did way more damage because they wrote out checks there skills could not cash. (Have some KZbin Engagement guys)

[@sergiovela7686]

What they said about not understanding the themes of the story is really obvious when you see the way some things are framed; like some battle scenes are big and huge and glorious but then they want you to think that war is awful and should not be glorified when they themselves did that. Or Dany doing questionable things but then you have this amazing happy soundtrack in the background. Or arya going from damaged traumatized child to the bride from kill Bill

[@sfcSpidey]

sergio vela well put and that’s why I think in the books Dany burning down kingslanding and fighting the others will be switched it hits on the themes GRRM crafts throughout the books just makes more sense to me

[@elizabethh8579]

and Arya going from Kill Bill to Nah, the killing life isn't for me, instead I want to abandon my family, whom I have been killing and searching for, immediately after reuniting with them to travel the world.

[@AA-nh9do]

@@elizabethh8579 this^

[@b1bbscraz3y]

@@elizabethh8579 and let's just all forget that she was driven by returning to her family...only to go to the Eyrie where they know Sansa is and just leaving after hearing Lysa died. like why in the hell would you not at least try to enter the Eyrie to see Sansa? makes no sense

[@thomasalegredelasoujeole9998]

What Weiss and Benioff misunderstood is that ASoIaF is a sociological storytelling and not character centered. The world shapes and bends individuals rather than the other way around.

[@boggles454]

this is the biggest thing most reviews fail to mention. Westeros is the main character of this story.

[@b1bbscraz3y]

exactly, just like our own actual history. people die and things move on

[@christina9725]

The show wasn't even character centered, it was ACTOR/ACTRESS centered. All they cared about in their writing was writing certain scenes for the actors to act out. With that approach to writing, D&D said F the story and F the characters and their development.

[@johnnyskinwalker4095]

@@christina9725 Good point. makes a lot of sense.

[@sabrinakrisb4672]

Yes !!! You get it !!!

[@sydnitheromantictaylor112]

I do wish the night king was the central focus of season 8 and not the damn throne.

[@rosesongoku6980]

Right, like the vast majority of us expected it to be... how do the writers not have the common sense that the millions of fans don’t? Especially when they wrote the past few seasons full of statements that the Throne didn’t matter in comparison to stopping the Night King.

[@b1bbscraz3y]

exactly. battle for dawn happens at Winterfell, kill more characters off than the few they did and not in stupid ways. have them retreat south eventually to King's Landing. have Ceresei actually see the threat.. boom better story already

[@johnnyskinwalker4095]

seems like D & D just didn't care about the magic stuff

[@МаринаПопова-е3ш]

Well At least the saga is called A Song of Ice and Fire for a reason so the books will probably focus more on the white walker problem if they ever come out

[@Liquessen]

I felt like they went from character motives guiding the plot, to the plot guiding character motives. People became stereotypes of their own hype rather than people the show follows. It became very.. tv? It decided to conform to a format.

[@b1bbscraz3y]

other way around. went from plot driven to character driven. that's why the plot became illogical and the characters stayed alive when they shouldn't have. but yes

[@Former_Halo_Fan]

@@b1bbscraz3y ASOIAF has always been a character-driven story. The plot is driven by how the characters interact with one another, and GRRM often shifts his plans when he realizes it's not in-character for someone to act in a certain way, or when there's a side character he really likes and wants to shift the focus onto. That is how the series originally went from being planned as a trilogy to needing seven books or more - it all ties in to GRRM's love for his characters and his desire to explore those characters. "Characters staying alive when they shouldn't" is a symptom of a plot-driven story. The plot needs this character to be alive, so it won't kill them even in situations where the only realistic outcome is their death. In character-driven stories, characters are more likely to face the natural consequences of their actions, because all the characters have agency, and none are going to turn a blind eye to another character making a decision that the others should all rights disapprove of. For example: in the books Jon is stabbed because he makes several decisions that all of his advisors disagree with, and they have good reasons for disagreeing with him. Bowen Marsh has every reason to believe that Jon is leading the Night's Watch to its destruction, and there are tears in his eyes because despite his disagreement he knows that Jon is a good person in a terrible situation. In Bowen's mind, killing Jon is the best of a very short list of terrible options - he thinks it's the only way to ensure the long-term survival of the Watch because it prevents a conflict with the North and potentially beyond that every historical precedent for this type of situation has more or less established they cannot win. This is a *character-driven* decision. In the show, Thorne stabs Jon because Jon let the Wildlings past the Wall. And that's the only reason. It's stupid writing because Thorne already had a moment to betray Jon earlier on, when he could have simply refused to let Jon through the gate. And killing Jon doesn't really solve the issue of the Wildlings either, because they've already gotten past the Wall, and they immediately attack Castle Black when they hear of Jon's death. Thorne only kills Jon because it happens in the book and because Jon's death + resurrection is necessary to justify Jon's later desertion of the Watch on the argument that his oath no longer applies. There's also no clear crisis point that prompts this event - it effectively comes out of nowhere at the time when it best serves the plot. Jon's stabbing in the show is almost the exact same story beat from the books, but the reasoning and context behind it is different and makes it a *plot-driven* decision. GOT started as a character-driven story where the characters were well-written and they all interacted with each other in a way that enhanced both the plot and the characters even further. It ended as a plot-driven story where the plot was badly-written, which led to characters making out-of-character decisions in order to make certain events happen, while also resulting in characters not having enough time to express themselves which resulted in them becoming boring or one-dimensional.

[@NUFCMVFC]

Magic could have been fine in later times but it worked as a "Medieval drama" in earlier seasons. Like Dragons bringing magic back into the world, it should have gotten stronger as seasons went on and we should have seen Quaithe and House of Undying etc

[@johnnyskinwalker4095]

my thinking as well. Magic should have grown stronger as it went on. Given that the birth of dragons and the return of the Others/WW sort of signaled that. In many ways the whole concept of the Wall was "there are weird things beyond the wall" as if it belonged to a time when frightening things existed. That is the threat. And then as the show go forward, you see these things reappearing.

[@NUFCMVFC]

@@johnnyskinwalker4095 Yeah they even half-foreshadowed this when talking about legends of Ice Spiders during the Hardhome meeting etc

[@jamescoz7469]

@@johnnyskinwalker4095 money.

[@b1bbscraz3y]

you must not have watched the same show. the magic definitely got stronger. how do you think characters kept teleporting everywhere? lmaooo

[@EncryptedBear8]

In HBO's "Rome" they did often skip battles by just beginning them, cutting away and then the battle was over. Which kind of felt cheap ("oh wait it's already over?"), while the way they did it with Tyrion in S1 felt like we didn't really miss the battle. Our POV charactewr didn't experience it, so we also didn't really need to experience it.

[@marywilcox3102]

And yet in Book 1, Tyrion WAS there at the battle and FOUGHT in it. Sorry for the caps, just emphasizing.

[@StockpileThomas1]

Like Preston said: You can't please everyone. hehe

[@marywilcox3102]

@@YourBlackLocal Eh, it's not my favorite change. It makes Tyrion look incompetent. Which he isn't. At least, not in the books.

[@arbynChief617]

MrColler123 exactly. Its also fucking hilarious. Plus felt like it was a nod to Bilbo, another short person, getting knocked out and missing the battle.

[@travisweller9328]

Starbucks cost them star wars.. lol

[@gilsonpassos1047]

Them bottles of water too lol

[@alexman378]

There’s seriously no excuse for that.

[@oyblech8671]

@@alexman378 indirectly the cup and bottles stand for the lack of devotion, attention, and love for this once great series. in this sense it did and I'm glad it did. still wondering what that netflix deal is, though.

[@mightydigebuge]

@@oyblech8671 The Netflix deal is something around 200-300 million dollars.

[@69nadyacole69]

Well they got 200 million from Netflix 😐 I wish they spend their money in a reckless way.

[@michaelalan6459]

This podcast is too short. We need like a 4 to 5 hour discussion over the Brave Companions or maybe the Kingswood Brotherhood.

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

Sounds like a request hmmmm

[@thomasc.5219]

@@OfficialRedTeamReview I request it

[@gilsonpassos1047]

@@OfficialRedTeamReview if it's a formal request you want, you got it, I request it too!

[@tuckergehlert4468]

Alfie Allen as Theon (more specifically Reek) is one of the best performances I've ever seen.

[@bittersteel3284]

Not fighting at the front with your men when leading an army isn't cowardly, it's just not being dumb. If you're leading an army your job is to, you know, lead it. Watching the battle and sending soldiers where necessary is what any sane commander does unless his personal presense at a location can rally the men.

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

Shogun 2 has honed this into me "OUR GENERAL IS IN GREAT DANGER, MY LORD"

[@johnv6806]

Alexander the great, caesar, attila the hun, gengkis Khan...

[@alanpennie8013]

@@OfficialRedTeamReview There's a book by John Keegan on this topic called The Mask of Command.

[@bittersteel3284]

@@johnv6806 And all of them personally engaged only when the battle required it, lol. In fact I think Tywin might have been in the vanguard at the blackwater, in the books I think.

[@johnv6806]

@@bittersteel3284 all of them lead from the front in most battles. If not all.

[@jebediahgentry7029]

If people knew about Dave and Dan's incompetence, why in the hell were they allowed to write after the show went past the books?

[@joeandrew8752]

I believe they got the rights to do the whole show ... I think. And they "didn't know better" to let others do it

[@coo3disk1]

They lied for the job, I am not lying either, they seriously lied.

[@marywilcox3102]

@@coo3disk1 Con men. That's what they are, and Benioff is a bipolar narcissist.

[@Paul-jx5rg]

Nepotism

[@oliviawilliams6204]

The issues with dumping down the fantastic elements, is that it cut some crucial elements of the story, cutting the tower of joy vision, the house of the undying, we missed some big elements to the plot, and they replaced them with nothing. Also cutting lady stone hearth kinda hunted the whole river land plot line in the later seasons...

[@gilsonpassos1047]

The Dragon Demands was right all along.

[@Batflecks]

He was a hero, I just couldn't see it.

[@coolbule1238]

A legend

[@marywilcox3102]

He sure opened my eyes. Started watching him after Season 7.

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

We do not speak his name here. He'll appear and then never leave me alone

[@lwandilemsiza8027]

@@OfficialRedTeamReview he was still right tho, and you were clowning him 😂....

[@nikotoscani9823]

Any chance of getting a leaked pilot of the cancelled blood moon so we can see where the white walker story was going?

[@TheresaWheeler]

So many people owe Preston an apology.

[@supremeworld87]

This isn't new news. As soon as they ran out of book material it was obvious they were clueless

[@EmethMatthew]

No, that's true, but despite that what floored me was that they were clueless enough to admit it...

[@sophiawilson8696]

They abandon the books materials. They plenty of materials left.

[@Longshanks1690]

What did these guys do in a past life to get THIS much karma? They have no prior accomplishments on their own merits and yet, with the success of another man’s series, they made enough money to comfortably retire before they’re 50. They are the textbook case of how unfair life is.

[@johnathankorkie4984]

The karma is they recognized how good of a story it was and worked really hard to get the show pitched. And they're still the show runners when it was good but its alot easier to adapt especially from a good story than craft your own. But make know mistake it was still alot of hard work that got them where they are.

[@MyObessiveDirector]

Doesn't help that one of their dad's is the former head of Goldman Sachs and is good friends with HBO's former head 🙃

[@johnathankorkie4984]

@@MyObessiveDirector key word former. They also pitched the show to amc and NBC and they also had to manage the highest budget show of all time. I'm not defending alot of stuff they did or saying they didn't have ties. I'm just saying it's not like they didn't work for there success.

[@El_Descarriado]

@@johnathankorkie4984 Golly-gee, it sure is hard workin' within this $[INF] budget.

[@johnathankorkie4984]

@@El_Descarriado yes. With that kinda budget if they failed not only would all the cast and crew be out of a job but exec's and non high up people at HBO would be out of a job too.

[@papastallion]

I'll donate $20 billion to Preston if he agrees to write a reboot of the entire TV series

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

LOL

[@StraitClownin909]

That's over 20 times what GOT likely cost

[@papastallion]

@@StraitClownin909 I want it done properly

[@emotionallyslutty]

Fanboy alert 🚨

[@eb7446]

He would over complicate it to unwatcheable levels. Interesting theorist and analyzer but not story teller. He misses a lot of emotional nuances in his theories. It isn't always about having the cleverest riddles, it is about a good story.

[@ajhouten100]

I was hoping you'd address this!!!

[@ajhouten100]

It completely validates your mocking of them for latching on to cool scenes like Dany sprouting dragon wings.

[@Longshanks1690]

Well who didn’t see this one coming?

[@theraven268]

I love your name!

[@MZeternally]

Should have just handed it to someone else man

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

First few seasons were great. Someone else might have gotten it wrong.

[@MZeternally]

@@OfficialRedTeamReview Yeah i meant the last season. They did a great job at the beginning but clearly wanted to move on as of recent

[@coo3disk1]

They don't have any excuses there either, all they had to do was follow the books to make everything easy for themselves because the books are long enough to go to maybe 9 to 10 season at least, but they cut out loads of the story trying to rush, so they had to create new material.

[@sydnitheromantictaylor112]

@@coo3disk1 agreed or if they didnt want that many seasons they should've let someone else adapt the books

[@oyblech8671]

the key to all this was george. his heavy involvement in the earlier seasons made them great. at some point the two internet's favourite punching bags got cocky, thinking it was their adaptation which made asoif popular; changes were made which george didn't approve of (this was around season 4, 5) and he ultimately left the set. it was't downhill, it was a straight bomb drop from there.

[@MsTeacake1982]

22:50 There's an interview(I think The South Bank Show) with GRRM where he says he chose Dave and Dan. He interviewed potential showrunners at his house and asked all of them "So, who is Jon Snow's mother?" as a benchmark of how well they understood the material. Mrs GRRM told D&D "Not to fuck it up".

[@DavidGarcia-oi5nt]

Insider information over here....

[@NUFCMVFC]

Don't forget the job the Directors did in making S1 great, eg I remember when Ned decides to go to KL and we have his Wife on one side in one ear and his Maestar in the other. Plus there's the Tyrion "the Queen mustn't know" scene from S2 which I thought was great. And Tywin skinning the Deer with Jaimie

[@lemonadelemon1960]

“We had no idea what we were doing” Me: Really? I had no idea. I would have never have guessed.

[@treydeblasio8344]

They never showed Storm’s End.

[@SayMy_User_Name]

You’re right about the fact that fans, or audiences, don’t know what they want from a certain show or movie until it’s given to them and then they realize oh wow I wanted that all along.. but I think fans do know what they DONT want.. and that’s where the fans voices can come in handy for creators, take note of what the fans DONT want, and I think that could help any show or movie or video game be more successful

[@peaceteee6004]

“I don’t think Game Of Thrones has one bad casting in it” *Shae has entered the chat

[@paradoarify]

Peter Dinklage can't act. No one else could play him though.

[@joeandrew8752]

@@paradoarify wow, that's a hot take

[@monsouranda2822]

Shae's ok

[@Jay-qm8cx]

Peace Teee Euron also entered the chat.

[@JasonWilliams89]

@@paradoarify Lmao dude, rewatch S4

[@johnnyskinwalker4095]

I think the biggest problem is that they admited that they didn't have a writer's room, it was just these two guys. And sure it's cool when there's one vision of something so it feels truer and you don't have gazillion of editors(I think that is what is happening on Vikings) but let me tell you that most of the time it's better when you have 20 brains than 1 or two. Just cause it's many different perceptions and it's less of an close echo chamber where you think you are right where you may not be. I write often and I was in a bend and talked to by brother last night and he came up with like many awesome ideas how to bring me out of that hole my characters were in and I could not believe how good his ideas were, some I would have never thought about. Bear in mind in a novel, it's less problematic when you have a single mind. But whatever you are doing, with more people they can point out your flaws and things you had not seen. They were two guys who never realised that you don't put people in a crypt against an enemy that raises the Dead. All it needed was another brain to say, hey guys it doesn't make sense.

[@omg_look_behind_you]

yeah i'm glad they kept shit grounded in real demon womb magic

[@kylethomson7583]

Carmine keeps describing LoTR magic as fire balls and what not, but even LoTR magic is not fireballs and what not. There is magic but it isn't flashy and as "high fantasy" as he thinks. Tbh harry potter magic is the magic he is referring to but I just wanted to get this out there.

[@iwantsomecookies08]

Yeah, I keep thinking the same! The most magical thing in the Hobbit & LotR is Gandalf lighting some pinecones with his staff. Magic is music in Tolkien’s universe, which was almost entirely omitted from the Jackson films.

[@kylethomson7583]

@@iwantsomecookies08 exactly

[@KiritoAkira]

The reason why show was great in spite of Dumb and Dumber's ineptitude, is because the source material is incredible good, and Martin himself was heavily involve in t.v. series and leave it at the time of season 6 , and the writer that they hired were very knowledgeable about the lore of Song of Ice and Fire.

[@sophiawilson8696]

He left in season 4. He wrote one episode in 1,2,3, and 4 seasons and then was gone.

[@tbeller80]

Season 1 was brilliant because it was almost word for word the first book. Allegedly there is an unreleased pilot as well with some different actors so they worked out a few bugs before we saw it.

[@marywilcox3102]

Season 1 is good, but it too has problems.

[@lovablesnowman]

The unreleased pilot was a catastrophe by all accounts

[@alanpennie8013]

@@lovablesnowman Can we see it pretty please?

[@TheresaWheeler]

Ramsey was waaayyyy too attractive.

[@turtleanton6539]

And tyrion

[@Anonymous_P]

And arya

[@TheresaWheeler]

@@Anonymous_P my baby psycho assassin is adorable and you will deal!

[@arturkvieira]

Wut

[@thurmanstevenson5692]

Lord of the rings is pretty low magic to if Gandalf was just could just throw fireballs and stuff then things would have been way easier at helms deep you know

[@alexandersiebert2868]

Mads Mikkelsen for euron :C

[@b1bbscraz3y]

for some reason they took this mysterious, dark and brutal character and replaced it with an arrogant clown horn dog

[@mccollumparkfarmersmarket7836]

it was clear for every person watching that read the books you dave and dan didnt know what was going on

[@fernandogarcia3957]

As for Dragon Demands Benioff apparently behaved badly with the actors. When you see the tide come and go, you see what has been left. What a mess. The series is more ridiculous with each season from the 4th or 5th.

[@magoo9279]

The older Bran anyone could play. But the younger Bran was more interesting.

[@SupportGamin2024]

younger bran sucked,all he did was be an emotionless bot for 3 seasons,and to make him king of the seven kingdoms is insulting.

[@post-leftluddite]

I'm so disappointed that Blood Moon was canceled, and to be honest, before blood moon was even leaked, I knew deep down inside that the Dance of the Dragons would be the prequel they'd make for one single reason: It's basically a carbon copy of Game of Thrones with political backstabbing and Dragons. Just like how in Game of Thrones (show) they cut most of the fantasy elements from the books, I KNEW blood moon would have "too much magic and fantasy" to attract a wide audience and therefore profit. What I'm most disappointed about is the fact that WE ALREADY KNOW EVERYTHING there is to know about the Targaryans (post conquest), so this prequel will not show us a single new incite. Blood moon on the other hand, had the potential to show us EVERYTHING NEW, and information about a part of westerosi history we know next to nothing about, and that sucks that we won't get that chance now. I WANTED TO SEE WESTEROS WHEN THE CHILDREN OF THE FOREST WERE STILL COMMON AND MAGIC WAS EVERYWHERE. We've already seen Dragons and politics, I wanted to see something new, and I just know that HBO is going with the Targaryans due to the bottom line.

[@johnnyskinwalker4095]

Agreed. little was written about Blood Moon, about that time period. That was the appeal to me, like you can do anything.

[@mightydigebuge]

So much of the stuff in GoT, especially the ending would make so much more sense and have meaning if we knew how it all began. I'm also sooo sad we won't see the children of the forest and the birth of the Night King...

[@johnnyskinwalker4095]

@@mightydigebuge D & D's low imagination damaged the concept of the WW the moment they had the Children create the NK via dragonglass. They never went back to the story cause for them it was over. That was their origin and that's it. But there was probably far more to it. I believe there was many Long Nights.

[@jakehoward2493]

Very good points, however, as a non book reader, I'm definitely more excited to see a dance of dragons rather than blood moon. I'm turned off to the idea of see stuff about the children of the forest because the story line was so poor in GOT with no ending that I don't see myself getting invested, so give me more GOT kind of stuff 😄

[@yaketysaks]

Ya’ll didn’t really think Preston and Carmine were done with Season 8 did ya?

[@onetwothreefourfive12345]

It’s not over until it gets remade.

[@onetwothreefourfive12345]

“Catelyn’s description of Storm’s End... she describes it like a castle, but if you read closely it’s a completely modern structure. Smooth cement walls is what she describes. So i wonder if Storm’s End used to be a nuclear power plant or a hydroelectric plant or something” For god sake Preston. Not again 😩

[@alanpennie8013]

Never gonna let it go.

[@onetwothreefourfive12345]

Alan Pennie for sure 😂😂

[@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin]

"Yet Storm's End endured, through centuries and tens of centuries, a castle like no other. Its great curtain wall was a hundred feet high, unbroken by arrow slit or postern, everywhere rounded, curving, smooth, its stones fit so cunningly together that nowhere was crevice nor angle nor gap by which the wind might enter. That wall was said to be forty feet thick at its narrowest, and near eighty on the seaward face, a double course of stones with an inner core of sand and rubble. Within that mighty bulwark, the kitchens and stables and yards sheltered safe from wind and wave. Of towers, there was but one, a colossal drum tower, windowless where it faced the sea, so large that it was granary and barracks and feast hall and lord's dwelling all in one, crowned by massive battlements that made it look from afar like a spiked fist atop an upthrust arm."

[@alanpennie8013]

@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin I have no objection to it being a power station. Doubt we'll ever get a definitive answer from GRRM though.

[@thewatcher2538]

we knew they didn't know what they were doing

[@CJLAKE123]

Yup. It was Whispering Wood. That's what they said in the special features.

[@onetwothreefourfive12345]

While they are clearly incompetent writers, it was reasonable to expect they would have books to adapt throughout the entire thing. George being slow as a snail is clearly a factor too.

[@theraven268]

This argument never seemed reasonable to me, because they did not adapt most of the two last books and what they did adapt was altered to the extreme. If the show was mostly the same as the books until the start of season 7 i would agree with this. But late in season 4 they decided to go their own way with mostly every storyline, that is ok but then the series must stand on it's own.

[@alanpennie8013]

@@theraven268 TBF those last two books were even more difficult to adapt than the first three, with their meandering plots and host of new characters.

[@sophiawilson8696]

sorry that is not true they had 10 years materials/books to do but decide to their shit and look what happen.

[@rosesongoku6980]

George suggested that they do 13 seasons and they declined. However, I have to agree. As poor as their writing skills are without someone holding their hand, George should NOT have needed 13 years to finish the last two books. By that logic, we won't get A Dream of Spring until at least 2023. That is absurd considering in what time frame he released the others. Just how much longer is he planning on making the next two? Also, why'd he waste time with Fire and Blood (A PREQUEL) as well as literally working on anything other than the next two?

[@alanpennie8013]

@@rosesongoku6980 I suspect that he has allowed his story to sprawl to such extent that he finds it impossible to resolve it in a satisfying way.

[@nrsrymj]

Look up Hello Future Me's rewrites of the Battle of Winterfell onward. Head Canon is therapeutic. As is the Pitch Meeting for Season 8.

[@Fangs1978]

I disagree that the Tywin/Aria scenes were some of the best in the show. They were fine, but they came at the expense of setting up Roose Bolton and we all know what a non character he turned out to be.

[@HarryBuddhaPalm]

"Lord of the Rings" was very low magic. You only see two wizards and they don't do that much actual magic.

[@b1bbscraz3y]

I feel like by "magic" they are using that to also include more fantasy elements like elves, orcs or whatever else. those were front and center in lotr. in ASOIAF they're mostly just normal people with the fantasy elements as an ancillary thing that even people in the story don't believe exists

[@forestelfranger]

Yeah if they wanted to talk about magic, should of gone into depth by talking about the different magic systems. Since lord of the rings would fall under a soft core magic system. Since you have hardcore magic systems, midcore magic systems. That and well i'm not sure what their point was with snap your fingers and it happens. SInce as long as it follow a consistence rule set or way it works, that doesn't break the world. It should be fine. Since they just said summon a fire ball out of thin air. WHich does not sound like an issue, long as it handle well and not used as a plot device to benefit the main character for no real reason like changing the rules for how it works during the middle of a battle.

[@shacuras8201]

What Preston mentioned about modern structures has kind of been done in the Shannara Chronicles series. You can see everywhere in the world that it is post apocalyptic, but the characters completely ignore that point and the story is pure fantasy. I actually really liked that aspect of it, but I agree with Preston that it probably wouldn't work so well for GoT. Other than that, the Shannara Chronicles is pretty bad too, some terrible acting in there

[@alanpennie8013]

I believe Wheel of Time is also set on a future Earth so the idea has quite a bit of currency in epic fantasy.

[@shacuras8201]

@@alanpennie8013 Yeah definitely, I was talking about the Amazon Prime Series specifically though. Because Preston mentioned it would be different in a visual medium compared to a book.

[@mutatedgenome]

Yet somehow S8E3 was still a 10/10. -Carmine

[@SilverScale.]

I just wanna know what they meant by "mothers and NFL players..."

[@TheGoblinoid]

Normies, they meant normies.

[@marywilcox3102]

I think they meant to say that mothers and NFL players are incapable of understanding fantasy.

[@SilverScale.]

@@marywilcox3102 I know... But I want them to 'splain. ;)

[@marywilcox3102]

@@SilverScale. Your ears are gonna bleed ;)

[@SilverScale.]

@@marywilcox3102 hahahahha!!! You're right! They're pre-bleedin' right NOW! :D

[@jamelbrewster7667]

I think the show could had added Danny perspective as she was in the fire and maybe loss her hair but that could be just me. The right between ariya and the wraif could had been like in the book

[@shannond7437]

I think everything you are arguing around 23:00 is debatable. I don’t think anyone other than the people who hate just to hate (and no one honestly), could have foreseen the dumpster fire ending. Especially George upon signing D&D before the show started. This was a beautiful tragedy, and I am still glad we had it.

[@HuntingViolets]

You don't remember their dialogue in the Cersei/Robert scene? She asks him if they ever had a chance and he tells her no. They discuss the Targaryen threat, and he asks her what is more, one or five? She says five. He counts off five fingers, folding them down and ending in a fist: One. One army. There is a lot of good writing in that scene. As much as I dislike much of season 8, I do think they have written some little character scenes that were really memorable and added a lot.

[@redcd3743]

Lol, i was waiting (nails filed, hair raised and teeth screeching) for dis!!!!!! 💀🥂

[@fatal85]

By the end of the series it was clear to me that the actors, set designers and wardrobe department cared more and had a better idea of what they were doing than the showrunners themselves. They lucked out by hiring good people and then let them down by rushing to end it.

[@ksolesky2]

Preston: wow d&d kept saying all these crazy ridiculous things Also Preston: I think storms end could be the remains of a nuclear power plant or something

[@Omojuze41]

There's a theory that he subscribes to that Westeros went through industrial revolution, but then something happened, bla bla bla magic.

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

LOL

[@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin]

"Yet Storm's End endured, through centuries and tens of centuries, a castle like no other. Its great curtain wall was a hundred feet high, unbroken by arrow slit or postern, everywhere rounded, curving, smooth, its stones fit so cunningly together that nowhere was crevice nor angle nor gap by which the wind might enter. That wall was said to be forty feet thick at its narrowest, and near eighty on the seaward face, a double course of stones with an inner core of sand and rubble. Within that mighty bulwark, the kitchens and stables and yards sheltered safe from wind and wave. Of towers, there was but one, a colossal drum tower, windowless where it faced the sea, so large that it was granary and barracks and feast hall and lord's dwelling all in one, crowned by massive battlements that made it look from afar like a spiked fist atop an upthrust arm."

[@meadi6510]

You always seem to put a podcast out the day before big news😊

[@sithalchemist]

i dont mind the turning down the fantasy element the problem is once we started building towards the night's king and the long night u need to start building the fantasy part of it. Theres a point of no return that they crossed where u have to lean into heavy fantasy and thats Bran's story line. Once he reached the 3 eye raven the audience understands its magic time that there are other elements to the world then what we have.

[@scoliosis9478]

yea i get in the early seasons having it focus more on the politics because thats what the books do, but clearly the more magical elements are unfolding as the story progresses and to completely overlook them hurts a lot of what’s going on in the story.

[@dekuuchiha9990]

To be fair George should never had agreed to the tv show knowing he wouldn't have the story finished in time for the ending.

[@destinitaylor4360]

Ik Ramsay was ugly in the books but I thought Jon was depicted as a pretty boy in the books lmao 🤣 the more you know.

[@Hecatonicosachoron]

d&d tried to humble brag but instead GoT fans interpreted it as “THEY ADMITTED THEY WERE CLUELESS”... If they were supposed to be getting better though as the show went on then the failure of the last two seasons is still a mystery.

[@PainCausingSamurai]

I disliked the last 3 seasons, but I think the reflexive fan negativity we're seeing everywhere has gone out of control in th last few years. People are putting way too much importance on fictional media lately, and it's ugly to watch people jump back and forth between extreme emotions.

[@WriterusAeternus]

Only Preston can make an analogy of GOT with bathroom hardware.

[@rustymertz]

Rogue One was rumored to have major production issues, and it is the best of the new Star Wars. Iron Man(1) didn’t really have a script. Jaws is another one with numerous production problems.

[@treydeblasio8344]

Apocalypse Now had legendary production problems but it is a classic.

[@lovablesnowman]

Storms end used to be a nuclear power plant or something? Mate.... Pls

[@sophiawilson8696]

I never heard about this theory before but it is very interesting so that how the Storm Lords fought the gods of the sea?.

[@tombuzzguy]

Preston always talks about how Westeros could be a post apocalyptic society . Apparantly it’s a theme GRRM explores quite often in his other works . Basically if we did something to more or less almost whole ourselves out and all the technological progress we made we would be back in a feudal society , with only relics to our former prominence . I think it’s a little off base to think imagine today’s society had some event occur and bang we’re back 2000 years . Too me it’s more like magic died in the world and people went back through the ages and stagnated . AWOIAF is now just rediscovering magic and will claw itself out of the med evil ages .

[@lovablesnowman]

@@tombuzzguy from a meta point of view I kind of get it. But from an in universe one I'd hate it

[@TwoHands200]

Preston Jacobs was proved right about D&D Now that GRRM is gonna be doing this new show, we can kiss the 2 final books goodbye!

[@marywilcox3102]

He's not gonna be a part of it. Or at least he's not gonna write any episodes. Not until the Winds of Winter is finished. It's his biggest priority, Book 6.

[@TwoHands200]

@@marywilcox3102 if thats how you placate yourself fine. You have been warned that your expectations will be subverted...again!

[@daniellamunoz8894]

Yeah and I dont even care anymore, I’d like it more if GRRM helps make a GOOD tv show as the seasons of GOT that he was involved in.

[@procinctu1]

GRRM in his blog declared he will not write scripts for the new TV show until book 6 is finished.

[@marywilcox3102]

@@procinctu1 Yep.

[@hoosieraussis1]

Magical realism is a thing (see 100 years of Solitude or House of the Spirits). I do think the early seasons kinda fit that genre. Then it moved into full on fantasy late in the series.

[@michaelpearce9582]

It’s not that they over perform, it’s that there’s only 2k soldiers to fight instead of 20k

[@lawmanbird]

The biggest part of reading fan reactions that should be followed is more broad scope view and attitude for example: when the casual watchers got invested and sales for the books and all the side stuff exploded, that’s when they should have started leaning harder toward fantasy. Instead of feeling the winds of public perception they hid afraid of anything. The whole downfall of game of thrones is now a perfect example of nepotism and separation of the two classes. Failing up works well for those born rich.

[@psevdhome]

I think ultimately what I like about a Song of Ice and Fire or any book, that it has the space to explore the different outcomes for similar people and the parallels between them. Whereas a visual story needs to be more contained. Just like Martin himself said, that in a tv show (he was a tv writer for a long time) the stuff you can include is limited whereas in a book it's not. In a book a battle of tens of thousands can cost the same as a thrilling political scene, provided that the take up the same amount of pages. In a tv format this is not true. I don't know the methods by which D&D wrote but I honestly think they could have gotten a monumentally better show by doing two more drafts of each script and focusing on what needs to be shown and told. Then they can be economic with the different scenes but still give the story its due. In a Song of Ice and Fire there are many parallel characters and many that we think are parallels but might not be. Stannis is the archetype of "the truly just man", a terrifying thought for Varys, who seems to believe that he is the most terrifying thing to imagine, probably because Varys believes that things must be done for the good of the realm, not merel for justice. But perhaps it is because he changes his loyalty, which a man like Stannis can't comprehend, so Varys is afraid for himself. Stannis' parallels are Ned Stark and Jon Arryn, with Ned being a truly honourable man rather than merely just. And Jon Arryn may be a combination. Arryn must have had something that provoked Stannis to try and ally with him. Ned's last act is a matter of interpretation, he confesses to a coup, and by lying loses his honour, but he does it to save lives, so is he destroying his honour or using it in the best way possible, it is hard to tell. This reminds us of his other honourable lies. Whatever the truth behind Jon's birth, it is his lie that has protected him. Whether from Robert's knives or Catelyn's wrath, he is safe because Ned refused to tell anyone of his origin. We don't need to know what Jon Arryn ultimately thought about anything, he ironically died to help Littlefinger's scheming, not the ruth about the Lannisters, so we are left to wonder what would have happened if he were allowed to live to expose the Queen and her knight. In a way Jaime and Cersei are parallel characters, both are convinced of their own greatness. But in Cersei it is more about her station whereas Jaime is more about actions. Cersei's station is a paradox, she resents the way her father has treated her because of her gender, she could be great on her own, yet she relies on everything her father has given her, she only has power through marriage to Robert, she has despite her self-declared ability, done nothing herself to earn that power. Jaime on the other hand is naturally talented, but his greatest achievement wasn't about talent, but doing what he thought was the right thing at the time, which required not much of his talent. So when he loses his arm, he still has something to grasp onto, unlike Cersei, who is now nothing without her beauty or power.

[@inr9751]

psevdhome “from Catelyn’s wrath” Wouldn’t she have been nicer to Jon if she knew he’s Ned’s nephew and not an illegitimate child?

[@psevdhome]

@@inr9751 That is a hard thing. I mean on the one hand, Ned told no-one the truth about who Jon is. But getting your wife to be mad at you, when you could just tell her the truth seems counter-intuitive. Perhaps he did not predict how much she could grow to hate him. On the other hand there are references that Jon's true birth does threaten the inheritance of Catelyn's children, whether he is illegitimate or not. This is in reference to Ned's inner monologue about what Catelyn would do IF she knew a child existed that threaten her children's inheritance. And he is comparing her to Cersei at that point who WOULD kill those who threatened the inheritance of her children... So a Brandon or a Ned with Ashara, BEFORE Catelyn's other children would cause that. Regardless of the matchup. Whereas R +L would not as Lyanna was a littlesister to both. It doesn't seem reasonable for Ned to willingly take on such a burden on his wife when he could easily and at no danger to himself, her or Jon at least tell HER, where he came from. If R + L is true that is.

[@scoliosis9478]

@@psevdhomethe threat jon poses is not from his true identity but from his false one, and thats why Catelyn can’t grow to love him. By being openly acknowledged and raised as one of Neds children, Jon, and his descendants, constantly prove a threat to Catelyn’s children and their descendants by being parallel claimants. Catelyns own thoughts say that she wouldn’t care if Ned had fathered some bastard who never knew who he was, but the fact that he was displayed out in the open and raised in Winterfell is what upsets her as anyone who resents Robb or his descendants’ rule could decide they want to back Jon or his descendants as Lord of The North instead.

[@psevdhome]

@@scoliosis9478 If he is Targaryen, why hide his identity as someone who will with 99.999% certainty cause problems in your household? If you're going to lie, why not make a lie that harms nobody and threatens nobody. It just doesn't make sense.

[@scoliosis9478]

@@psevdhome i think the idea is that honorable Ned Stark would never admit to having a bastard if it wasn’t his so his identity can’t be questioned

[@goodtaste4]

In terms of production value season 8 was the best tv ever seen.

[@barbarabailey6356]

Make movie. Queen Daenerys comes back to fight Bran the broken .Bran is the old man from the Tree.That's why that girl told Bran. Right before she left. You died in that tree.

[@deathshadow1076]

I'm up for that, just bring Dany back, her ending was ridiculously poor for such a great character

[@rosesongoku6980]

Bran is possessed by the Night King, who now has the powers of the Three Eyed Raven and drove Dany mad. When she comes back, she's been cured of her madness. A**pull? Definitely. Who cares? Not a single soul, dead or alive.

[@deathshadow1076]

@@rosesongoku6980 a bit like dragonball z, , who cares not a single soul alive.

[@rosesongoku6980]

@@deathshadow1076 *COUGH COUGH TRUNKS' SPIRIT SWORD IN SUPER*

[@deathshadow1076]

@@rosesongoku6980 DBZ has got to be the biggest pill of crap I've ever watched, attention deficit disorder for boys is the way to sum up DBZ

[@NinjavomWolfstor]

Theon's Sister was so an disappointment after my imagination from the books.

[@99IronDuke]

Stop making excuses. Be honest, Dumb and Dumber f...d it up totally, season five was heading downwards, season six was poor, season seven was bloody terrible and season eight was a total abortion. Worst ending in TV history not excluding Lost.

[@cherylbaxterstormborn477]

This show was the best ever in a series by HBO viewer's from all over the world an when season 8 ended they got 38 million signatures for a rewrite

[@thomasalegredelasoujeole9998]

« And it was litteraly showing » ^^

[@OneOnOne1162]

23:10 - D&D were not the showrunners chosen by HBO. The timeline is that D&D pitched to Martin FIRST and then they went to HBO. So Martin did pick them specifically. Edit: Also, Martin said that at the time he had enough money that he could say, in his words, the sexiest word in Hollywood "no." And he declined several other people who wanted to make GoT into movies and stuff. So he definitely could've turned down D&D and would've if they didn't please him.

[@basquat76]

I've said it since season4. How can the biggest most expensive tv show ever, not have a host of writers working on it. If you don't know what you're doing which was very apparent early on, you hire people that does know what they're doing and hide behind them. And there was one bad casting. Jon Snow, couldn't they have found and actor who could actually emote and play the character like he was a human being

[@50043211]

People dont like to be criticised? Looks like the two of you never lived in Germany, there is no sugar coating. The highest praise is when people say nothing.

[@troyhoggart9079]

I think its important to acknowledge that D and D did a fantastic job with the first 4 seasons. There's an interview with George where he discusses how the series came about and how he met for lunch with D and D and then they all sat and just talked for hours straight with real passion. I think George was very happy with them taking on the project because he was convinced they wanted to adapt his work as closely as possible. Problem was neither party was fully honest. They didn't tell George that they had no real experience with this and George acted like he'd have the books finished in time for them to adapt. I think D and lacked the necessary experience to pull it off alone and especially when the whole world keeps telling you everything you do is gold right until the final moment, it was kind of inevitable that they would get George Lucas Syndrome and start believing their own hype. When the only original ideas you have to insert are a scene here and there it's much easier to strike gold or go unnoticed as filler but eventually the cracks are going to widen until you all fall in.

[@sophiawilson8696]

The cracks beginning to show in season 4

[@troyhoggart9079]

@@sophiawilson8696 Exactly

[@zero96471]

and i understand that team review

[@murphyjack90]

I'm gonna write a whole new Song of Ice and Fire adaptation. I'll call it Game of Thrones: Brotherhood.

[@anag6709]

Jon has more Stark-like features than any of his half-brothers.[9] He is graceful and quick, and has a lean build.[10] Jon has the long face of the Starks,[11][12] with dark,[10][12] brown hair[13][14] and grey eyes[12] so dark they almost seem black.[10] Jon resembles his father, Lord Eddard Stark.[9][15] Because he looks so much like a Stark, Tyrion Lannister notes that whoever Jon's mother was, she left little of herself in her son's appearance.[11] Out of all the Stark children, Arya Stark is said to resemble Jon the most, as Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon take after their Tully mother, Catelyn.[16] Jon looks solemn and guarded,[11] and is considered sullen and quick to sense a slight.

[@eb7446]

In their defence it was fans who found Gwendoline(Brienne) and posted her as a potential casting and that was how she was approached. If something is right, it's right and they auditioned and cast by the same standards as everyone else. I can't take issue with this one.

[@Morinhetar]

I missed you guys

[@feral7523]

Lets be honest D&D were opportunists and were led to believe 'Slow as Shit drying' GRRM would have more material and make it easier for them to continue winging it, Then GRRM crawled up he's own ass for a decade and they were left exposed as the idiots left in the lurch and were fucked from then on. Just surprised they didn't do the honorable thing and just get some people 'in the know' to help!! they obviously knew they were shite and only getting worse. What the fuck were HBO doing too they must have seen S7 and thought these guys are awful lets get someone in?

[@Free-flyBE]

Don't believe their excuses - they knew exactly what they were doing & tanked it on purpose!! It's a rabbit-hole full of wolves:/

[@psexton85]

Ive been saying they should do targaryen civil war since they announced a prequel in works.

[@ib8628]

Which is the bigger number, 5 or 1?