Capacitor Theory - Electrolytic VS Film Capacitors in Audio Circuits

[@djrolly28]

This is the type of video on caps that I've been looking for, for a very long time but finally it's here, Tony has done it. This man is a true genius. My best teacher so far. Many thanks.

[@sirtainlee8725]

Excellent content!

[@albertobaronio806]

You exposed the concepts in a very clear and precise way. Thanks for doing this, very appreciated.

[@WECB640]

You're the best Tony. You make the complex very easy to understand. Keep up the great work!

[@johnwaldburger8822]

learned a lot ... thanks for taking the time to explain in detail... These "in between" videos are really valuable.

[@applecorc]

That file joke made me do a spit take

[@HipocratesAG]

Tony, this whole film cap thing is based mainly on Ciryl Bateman's work in linear audio, Douglas Self touches the subject on Small signal's book too... Yes, enthusiast overblow the subject with a lot of emotions to the point to makes one sick, however Bateman's work is very interesting.

[@mymessylab]

I think you’ve touched this topic in the most simple and effective way I’ve ever heard and seen. I’ve done a full recap on an HK preamp replacing electrolytic caps with film caps in some signal paths. The result is a dramatic and annoying increase of bass. Your video may explain why! After 40 years in electronics lucky I still have ears to hear masters like you. Thanks for the great job you have done for all of us. Looking for part 2 and to see the reaction of audio…..files 😬thanks Tony.

[@poormanselectronicsbench2021]

Some good info for an example of inductive reactance in a capacitor can be found on the datasheets for the "Orange Drop" caps ( the "715P" series datasheet is a good example) , now made by CDE (used to be Sprague) They show where, the impedance drops with a rise in frequency, until, it hits the point where the intrinsic inductive reactance in the cap takes over, and then it starts to rise again.

[@electriccity2415]

I always thought that replacing electrolytic with film caps was not a great idea and the designers used the electrolytic capacitors for a reason. Thanks for the in depth analysis of this subject.

[@netlogic1ify]

Loved your explanation ❤ Tony I really want to thank you for the time you spend teaching us. It's not obvious. Great video and loved to see all your knowledge and learning from you. Thanks again.

[@justinmijnbuis]

"When I sat down watching TV with my wife, I put together a presentation" ... we've all been there Tony :-) Great video, so much to learn.

[@davidgriffin79]

28:15 For the failure aspect, the ESR will lead to I^2R power losses, which will act to internally heat the cap up; the electrolytic will therefore dry out faster, than if its ESR were lower. So far, it seems to me , the conclusion is that a film cap is closer to an "ideal" capacitor and an electrolytic is a compromise. Therefore, it could be argued replace all electrolytic caps with film caps, where the values can be substituted, _unless_ the circuit has been specifically designed for a capacitor's deviation from an ideal cap; but is this the case?

[@semifixtion]

Wow, you do such a good job explaining the simpler things on your stereo videos but it's clear you have incredible knowledge of electronics beyond that

[@SkyhawkSteve]

spent a number of years worrying about high frequency behavior in circuits, so had to spend time reading the data sheets, checking parts with LCR meters, etc. It can be an eye opener to find out that caps stop being capacitive at some frequency, and a designer needs to be aware of this. It's not as critical for audio, but it certainly is good to review the manufacturer's literature and understand the parts you use. Good work!

[@NICK-uy3nl]

I have read that electrolytic caps in audio circuits introduce 2nd and 3rd order harmonic distortions which sound 'softer' to human ears, whereas film and tantalum caps introduce predominantly 1st order harmonics that sound harsher to ears, that's why you hardly ever see film caps in direct audio signal paths, very similar to vacuum tube harmonic distortion vs solid state harmonic distortions, human ears seem to be very sensitive to order of harmonic distortion .

[@karllangeveld6449]

First order harmonic is not a harmonic, it’s the base frequency. Also, I think a tantalum capacitor is not the same as a film capacitor, tantalum caps are a kind of electrolytic capacitor. Good video, Tony!

[@greenlanternseven]

Awesome good sir as this is a question I have wrestled with ...thank you for your fantastic and very helpful videos I appreciate you immensely and your incredible knoledge of electronics ,

[@mike94560]

I love it when people say "I have been doing it that way for years'. My reply is "When are you going to start doing it the right way".

[@chromasonictv6369]

Thanks Tony I went today electronics school in 1970 Forgot everything learned a ton from you Every time

[@xraytonyb]

You're in good company. I've forgotten more than I know also!

[@scrappy7571]

Perfect timing!. I'm about to remove the film caps I installed and replace with original type on a amp that does not sound as good as it should.

[@carlhayes-ze5nd]

Love the cat hair on the speakers. More than likely that will make them sound much better and will cause you to stay on the couch longer for listening sessions as well.

[@jaakimheinola8705]

Hello Tony! I have been following your channel for about one year or so, and I have to say this is one of your best videos ever. I like very much how you put out things and describe the very essential properties of electronics, components and circuits. Your explanations are just great how you show us how those essential characteristics are implmented in real life and applications, and how they have impact to result, ie sound quality. I have similair hobby and interests, and still learning things all the time. Big thanks to you Tony, keep on going, me personally enjoy especially your educational videos. I encourage you to publish even more technical stuff if you will.

[@dughuff8825]

Another great video Tony. I remember having a college lecturer spend far too long trying to get us to remember how capacitive or inductive reactance behaved, and they never used as simple a phrase as ELI the ICE man! Great stuff 😀

[@g.fortin3228]

Can't wait for part two !! why does this make me feel I'll be revisiting a preamp section I have recapped :-) Well I'm learning and thank you for this !

[@TrevorsBench]

Tony, I think you shown perfectly in part 2 how the audio gods at Sansui knew about the inadequacies of electrolytic capacitors in their design by adding a extra cap in parallel with the coupling caps in the signal path. What are the compensating for? IMO, electrolytics are not the best choice for audio. They are non-linear with frequency, they are temperature sensitive, degrade with age and heat and have a finite lifespan. While electrolytics are perfect for power supply applications, I feel they are not suited for audio.

[@xraytonyb]

@TrevorsBench I agree. That said, it amazes me how they were able to design the circuit around these components. Changing them for "better" modern components can change the way they were intended to sound. Over the years, I have come to the conclusion that I should replace the old worn capacitors with the same or similar type. As I found out on a Marantz receiver, the film cap can even allow the amp to oscillate at high frequency, when it didn't with the old 'lytics. My respect for the designers of this vintage gear only increases as I continue to understand how much detail they put into their designs. Thanks for the comment!

[@glennmello9409]

Are you modestly saying the designers knew they stood on the shoulders of giants and recognized the transitory nature of all things? Excellent point imho I’ve decided if it ain’t broke don’t fix it

[@nicodenhaak3961]

I'm experimenting with changing small value electrolitic's, to film in coupling applications. Also i add a small value bypass filmcap. The results are astonishing in a positive way. I had no occilaton occure, but will keep a close eye on that. Thanks for that reminder. The sonic performance is far superior with filmcaps as couplingcaps, compared to electrolitics. Bass is fast, dry and with definition. Mids nice and open. Lost of transparancy and resolution. Electrolitics are unstable and unpredictable with aging. And don't forget: at the time these amps where developed, there was no such thing as a small size filmcap like nowedays. They where huge, and very expensive!

[@tveasy5172]

I recapped the old amplifier two years ago and used film capacitors too to replace electrolytics up to 3 microfarads. Just two of then were Wima and other TDK. The quality of sound after the restoration is superb, it's worth the money invested. Aleatory picked electrolytic of Elna 1.0*50 has exactly 1.0 MF, but ESR is 12 Ohm. Film cap if TDK of then same value has ESR 2.0 Ohm! I think there is nothing to say more about.

[@alexw890]

This is just what I needed. Thanks Tony!

[@lostwave4880]

Thanks Tony, this is great! Tying all the principles together to figure out a real world question (what capacitor can be replaced with what other type of capacitor or not). I’ve always just generically measured speaker coils using DC resistance measurements, for example to measure continuity to figure out if they were blown or not. It had always worked and the meter would display at least some DC resistance value that appeared to be close enough to the stamped impedance value. Until one day I was measuring a satellite speaker component and it showed an open DC circuit, but the speaker worked when connected to an amplifier. It took me hours to realize that although the speaker was labelled 8 Ohms resistance, it was not DC resistance, but was instead AC impedance. Something in the internal crossover was causing DC resistance not to register. If only I had seen this video first :)

[@robharley9838]

Great video Tony, thanks! I had never considered using an LCR meter to directly measure impedance in a speaker, makes perfect sense though. Appreciate the tip and the thorough explanations. You have become a great teacher over the years! - jrh

[@glennmello9409]

This tutorial(?) is one of many I hope to find here. If I can gain enough confidence (by increasing my understanding) I hope to acquire the tools/equipment to properly diagnose my own gear. My go-to tech is nearly my age (66) and a rare bird indeed. His accumulated knowledge/experience is amazing. I would love to have access to to basic electricity modules you may have. Everything you do confuses me ONLY at the limits of my understanding. I’d like to learn more and keep coming back. My Sansui BA/CA2000 got me here TY

[@vaccarioou22]

Very interesting and useful video - look forward to Part 2 - Thank you

[@alvaro_5508]

Hello Tony, I usually follow your videos because the way you analyze the designs seems very interesting so that it is clearly understood, even when the knowledge base is a little limited as may be my case. For some time now I have had the need to buy an esr / lcr meter since it is a necessary tool and this is where my doubt arises and I would appreciate your opinion: my options are the Hantek 1832/33 or the der5000 that I saw you used in this video (or if you have another suggestion it will be welcome), I await your response and I take this opportunity to thank you for the information you share in each presentation, a big hug in advance!

[@xraytonyb]

I have the DSR5000 and I really like it. I have never used the Hantek, so I can't say anything either way about those.

[@Tysman909]

You do a great job of eplaining audio, dont worry about those audiophiles

[@xraytonyb]

It's not them I'm worried about; It's that pesky AudioFile ;)

[@Tysman909]

@@xraytonyb oh lol

[@BJcanal270]

Thanks for sharing your knowledge!!

[@tonypoloney8721]

Can an audio file be put in series with a tuning fork? And if so, how would one measure the impedance? 😮

[@Alex.M.S.]

Great video and explanation, Tony! I don't know much about the different factors in different type of capacitors but I definitely heard a difference in the sound when replacing them. Because i love bass and especially sub bass frequencies i never use film capacitors as input capacitors, they really affect those frequencies. I found that Nichicon UES series sound excellent as input capacitors and i allways use them. Recently i bought a 200w module for a bass channel and i replaced the caps on it because they were all chinese. But what i found interesting is that the bass response changed even when i changed the input bypass capacitor from a mylar film to a wima fkp, again the sub bass frequencies were significantly affected and i had to put the mylar back. I believe that the type of caps used really matter for each aplication.

[@JCWise-sf9ww]

Tony, your the electronics professor, doing an in depth explanation about capacitor types and the purpose of why the different types.

[@robertjames1306]

Hi Tony , Not a waste of my time . Thank you for the details . Robert

[@atmylab]

Great video, Tony; lots of great info, thank you. I’m getting my shop set up, hope to do some restoration videos.

[@josephlalock8378]

this'll be good. i hope it gives me a definitive answer to a question that i have. i'll let you know. :) edit: not there yet but i think that it will be answered in pt.2 of the sansui preamp. thanks tony.

[@rossthompson1635]

What an excellent video, thank you! So when a power amplifier's frequency response is tested in to an 8 Ohm resistive load, that is quite an unrealistic scenario. The resistor must be putting a considerably higher load on it at high frequencies than would be experienced by using an actual speaker, if the impedance ends up in the 50-70 Ohm range at the top end?

[@PossibleAudio]

Great video! I watch at least 1 of your videos every night.

[@thewheelman282]

That leakage tester looks awesome. Looks self built. Can you give more info on it?

[@xraytonyb]

I did a video on it. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oHfUhmWma8adq9U

[@adaboy4z]

I just replaced 4 electrolytic capacitors with Films for the first time in a Nakamichi deck. I can't hear a difference, but the deck is working.

[@stevefoster2700]

This is great Tony, much appreciated! I've been recapping speaker crossovers and replacing electrolytics with film for reliability and longevity. There is debate about the original being part of the design and thus the sound. But when the cap ages so does the crossover point. I find in some cases there is improvement, and in others I'm not so sure. I'd be curious to hear your opinion on this. Please keep these educational tutorials coming!

[@electronicsoldandnew]

Great video. Thanks Tony 👍

[@ingagiorchestra]

I soooo needed this video. Thanks, Tony!

[@BlackOpsJuJu]

very great and informative vid thanks for sharing

[@cremvustila]

This was great information Tony, I really like your educational videos!

[@dhpbear2]

17:20 - Here's a thought: If that speaker is an inductive load, shouldn't the impedance change more radically vs frequency?

[@PhuketMyMac]

Thank you very much! Super informative. Really appreciated.

[@CATS1952TELLA]

Very well explained this topic about electrolitic capacitors .I will appreciate if you later talk about audio transistors

[@johnwilliamson467]

The difference between 1 year's worth 30 times and 30+ years of learning by experience. Most tech who do it a long time do it for profit not to grow. My view is that resistance and impedance use the same unit ohms thus causing the problem for the newbies .

[@dhpbear2]

14:17 - Does the cat fur also affect the impedance? :)

[@Edisson.]

WoW 😲 WoW Hi Tony, this is absolutely the best explanation I've seen on this topic so far, I was looking forward to continuing the amp repair and was a little disappointed when you started talking about deleting the video, but the replacement video exceeded all my expectations. You could teach at a university with this explanation, hours of theoretical explanations will not tell as much as one practical example. I would be interested in your opinion on electrolytic capacitors in the so-called Audio class and the difference in the graph on the DATS device compared to the classic and LOW ESR capacitor. DATS seems like a very useful tool - I didn't know about it - I'm going to see if I can buy it now - THANKS for the info. I measure the ESR at two frequencies 1) at 100kHz and 2) at the working frequency of the capacitor - for example in sources at 100 Hz (we have 230V 50Hz) - with some capacitors the differences are huge. I'm sorry about your problems with the house and I know exactly how you feel - a few years ago the water broke in my summer cottage, I have absolutely no idea how long it was, maybe 14 days, or two months, but it was terrible in the basement. Edit: my wife just bought me a DATS V3 for my upcoming birthday 😁 Nice day 🙂Tom

[@Homer19521]

Great vid as always. I was hoping you had a 8R resistor to compare to the speakers as part of your example to show they have very little Z. My little mind tells me I wish Z had its own symbol.

[@vincentwells6035]

Your videos ARE educational I don’t watch for entertainment

[@squidkid2]

So it seems to me that even though a film cap and an electrolytic cap have the same "nominal" value their performance when placed in a given circuit may vary. With audio equipment there are complex interactions between all the components as they are working to move a complex musical signal through the amp. That musical signal will vary all over the map in regard to frequency and volume. So the original designers tuned the finished circuits by testing with different frequencies and fine tuned the design. I'm not saying that I could hear the difference with my ears but I'm sure the substitution of one type of cap for another does have an effect on how a given circuit performs. I guess you could "get away with" switching components but you no longer have the circuit that the original designers built. I believe you when you say that your ears couldn't hear any difference but then again ears are not a piece of electrical test equipment. I would be more interested in seeing both amps hooked up to a spectrum analyzer and seeing if there is any difference in frequency response. I guess I'm nit picking here but just assuming there is no difference because your ears can't hear the difference is not a scientific as testing with test instruments. Let's just say test equipment has better resolution than the human ear otherwise the question is not is there an electrical difference but is there a difference we can hear. Those are two different questions.

[@pauledwards2817]

Thank you for the superb video, as they all are. Not an electronics person but still illuminating. As heating and cooling can stress joints I have tended to keep my amp on 24/7. Just wondering about capacitor aging. Do they have an active use limit on age or do the just age sat doing nothing. Is the good or very bad to leave an amp on all the time?

[@rossthompson1635]

Interesting question! Electrolytic capacitors have a lifespan vs. temperature rating e.g. 2000 hours at 85C - that lifespan is a lot longer at more moderate temperatures but where they are in an amplifier, power supply etc. e.g. adjacent to a heat sink will shorten their life. Also if subjected to high ripple current they will heat internally and fail faster. So I'd say yes, leaving an amp on 24/7 probably does shorten capacitor lifespan primarily for thermal reasons. But then again, you make a good point about thermal cycling so maybe there are other advantages - I'd love to know what Tony thinks!

[@paulb4661]

​​@@rossthompson1635 Not only that, if you are patient, you may not only find the formula relating the temperature to guaranteed lifespan, but also a innocuous line on the rubber seal around the leads. These must not form a perfect seal, but allow for changes of temperature and equalize the internal pressure during normal working conditions. The figure often quoted for these remaining in proper shape is 15years at most. All details are included in any first tier electrolytic caps data sheet.

[@rossthompson1635]

​@@paulb4661 Thank you - I was not aware of that, and 15 years doesn't seem very long. Relating to the original post, I wonder how the rate of that form of degradation compares under constantly on or thermal cycling conditions?

[@paulb4661]

@@rossthompson1635 I'm not an expert, but I think that any competent design will take it into account and any good quality component must be well suited to thermal cycling under normally expected operating conditions. As a side note, I run my amps at 55°C, but it takes them an hour at idle to reach that temperature, thanks to large heat capacity sinks. Although the change is substantial, it is also gradual and with around 250watts consumption at idle, I wouldn't even be tempted to keep them on ad infinitum. 2 years down the road, 85°C Nichicon KZ & KG, Elna RFS2 and RBD caps measured fine, albeit with a slight increase in ESR, in general. There are 105°C rated, long life caps and the excellent Nichicon automotive UBT series rated for 125°C, so perhaps that's an upgrade path to consider for the sake of longevity. As you suggested, I too hope to hear from Tony, but the way I understand the seal principle of operation, it cannot be perfect and allow for a modicum of venting, yet prevent electrolyte escape at the same time. Perhaps it only remains "pliable" for a certain time and as it ages, the manufacturers no longer guarantee it does its job as well as did leaving the production line.

[@mario_intravino]

Great Tutorial

[@johnnytoobad7785]

Can't wait for Pt-II where the "rubber-meets-the road" (or should I say where the cap-meets-the-board...)

[@haraldlonn898]

Does really the digital ohm meter use DC? I woould use a analog meter to be shure. Great info. Thanks.

[@Homer19521]

Take your analog meter & measure your digital meter. What do you get?

[@PilotInCommand777]

Tony, What do you think of this meter? A Southwire 15190T. I bought a few of them from someone on ebay for about $40 each. To me it seems like a pretty good multimeter for the price. There seems to be quite a few for sale from the same seller right now. Maybe it could be a good deal for someone looking to not spend lots on a meter. If you can, let me know what you think. Thanks..

[@VladimirPutin-p3t]

@@PilotInCommand777 if a meter, for hobby use, does what you need it to do, with a level of precision to suit your needs, then it's a good meter. There are so many meters on the market right now and all of them are 100 times better than any of the hobby level meters from just a few years ago. Sonic you like it, and it does what you need, then it's a great meter

[@dzee9481]

Tony you are showing Silver Mica caps and those are very expensive and typically they are used mostly in timing circuits cause they keep there capacitance regardless of the temperature. The Silver Mica caps are those that are clear and you see a foil inside of it.

[@xraytonyb]

The clear capacitors with the silver foil in them that I showed are Polystyrene capacitors. They do not contain silver mica. They are nevertheless still expensive and as you say, are very stable with very tight tolerance (which makes them good for phono stages). They are also very delicate and have very fine leads and are usually not rated for very high voltages, unlike silver mica caps.

[@tveasy5172]

I used TDK, they cost affordable price and good quality.

[@geoepi321975]

That's like power factor correction on the grid to lower the reactive power 😢

[@Duckariffic]

RELEASE THE KRACKEN!!! (oh...I mean the the electrical short vids!) 🤣✌

[@afnDavid]

James Clark Maxwell, Michael Faraday.

[@xraytonyb]

Eli's ancestors ;)

[@Sans_Solo_]

Black Flag caps?

[@fernarias]

It's becoming impossible to buy electrolytic capacitors under 1uf and under 50v.

[@xraytonyb]

You cab still find them, but they are getting less available, just like a lot of the through-hole components out there.

[@t1d100]

👍👍👍👍👍

[@garygranato9164]

anyone ever made their own cap out of teflon(PTFE) tape ? if yes was it any good ?

[@mmaranta785]

Interesting

[@Gordonseries385]

👍

[@hjalmarfossi5728]

Huh

[@vornamenachnahme58]

Sorry for this, but, the world IS perfect. There are just NO PERFECT MODELS for anything we try to model in this world.

[@rudycandu1633]

Half an hour of my life wasted. (I had the speed set to 1.75x) My own fault. I should have jumped to the end to hear the conclusion. I designed industrial electronics for past 37 years. I saw the title and wanted to see the opinion and the reasons behind it.

[@xraytonyb]

...been doin' it for 37 years...

[@garygranato9164]

@@xraytonyb ha ha ha ah aha :)

[@RickMahoney2013]

BORING !

[@stevenbliss989]

I get your point, agree, BUT its is still all about COST$

[@linjia9539]

first place

[@jdmccorful]

Pretty thorough! Thanks . Always enjoy.

[@razec11]

👍