Yanis Varoufakis Meets David Wengrow | A New History of Humanity

What if everything we thought we knew about the origins of human civilisation is a myth?
The collaborator of the late, legendary anthropologist David Graeber joins Yanis Varoufakis to overturn everything you think you know about the history of human civilisation.
We all know how the story of humankind begins. Our remote ancestors were primitive and childlike, living in egalitarian hunter-gatherer bands. Then came farming and property, priests and kings, wealth and its unavoidable consequence: inequality.
Drawing on cutting edge archaeological evidence, the late David Graeber and his collaborator David Wengrow have told an ambitious and revelatory new history of the world - one that overturns the notion of Rosseau’s innocent Noble Savage and the ‘nasty, brutish and short’ lives of Thomas Hobbes alike.
Now, in conversation with former Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis, David Wengrow will take us from egalitarian early cities in Mexico and Mesopotamia to part-time kings and queens in Ice Age Europe, and challenge our assumptions about the origins of cities, democracy, slavery, and civilisation itself.
This livestream event will transform your understanding of our past and offer a powerful, playful, and extraordinarily original vision of our future.
Yanis Varoufakis is the author of the bestselling Talking to My Daughter: A Brief History of Capitalism and two previous books. Born in Athens in 1961, Yanis Varoufakis was for many years a professor of economics in Britain, Australia and the USA before he entered politics. He is co-founder of the international grassroots movement, DiEM25, and in 2019 won election as one of its representatives in the Greek Parliament. He is currently Professor of Economics at the University of Athens.
David Wengrow is a professor of comparative archaeology at the Institute of Archaeology, University College London, and has been a visiting professor at New York University. He is the author of three books, including What Makes Civilization? Wengrow conducts archaeological fieldwork in various parts of Africa and the Middle East.
(Recorded in January 2022)

[@liarbrice4772]

Having been a fan of Graeber's work for years (so too Varoufakis'- learned a great deal from 'Talking to my Daughter') I asked for and received 'The Dawn of Everything' as a Christmas gift and had read it, cover-to-cover, by the New Year. Absolutely fantastic piece of work - which now informs my own writing as a wannabe author of historical fiction for young people- and while I'm devastated I won't be able to read much else that involves Graeber (except the posthumously published Pirate Enlightenment, which is already on my reading list) I'm grateful that through him I was introduced to David Wengrow's work, which I intend to read just as exhaustively. Thank you both for all that you do, and for this brilliant interview.

[@valq10]

Have you read some of Graeber's more academic work? I studied Anthropology but I still reckon it's very readable to a wider public, 'Toward an Anthropological Theory of Value' is his magnum opus imo.

[@agneshaycollection6129]

@@valq10 kzbin.info/www/bejne/i4OQdoFmjq51f8k

[@marjon888]

Fantastic interview or conversation

[@voltcorp]

on the supposed opposition between materialism and choice, I believe Brazilian philosopher Vladimir Safatle provides a good summary: Freedom is not "choice", but understanding your place in time and history and your conditions. so providing research as Graeber and Wengrow did is literally a way to increase our freedom, not by allowing us to magically ignore our material conditions but to see them without so much filtering by temporal, eurocentric narratives.

[@lizthor-larsen7618]

Eurocentrism is a huge problem, as is mono-USAism. Both are problems of ignorance, quite simply. We ignore the influence of a) collectives of people outside Europe and/or b) collectives of people who live in NorthAmerica who are not WASPs ie: White Anglo-Saxon Protestants.

[@thomasdevine867]

Let's remember that Eurocentric viewpoints are forced on us as much by the Left as the Right. Example: The Arabian Nights, for all its faults, encouraged respectful curiosity about the cultures of North Africa and Southwestern Asia. Now, any interest in the Arabian Nights gets you labeled racist! In fact any curiosity about non-Western cultures that isn't rigidly submitted to bitter snobs is labeled racist. This is the Left's fault. If you demand only perfect representation, you forbid all representation. In America, in the 1940s and 1950s, there was a whole genre of films with Arab heroes. Any attempt to do anything like one of these adventure films today would be violently attacked. The Left, by banishing Sinbad and Shaharazade, promotes ignorance of Arab culture. Making a politically correct fantasy of non-Western prehistory will simply shame people out of learning about the past as the Left shames people out of learning about other cultures. By doing this, you take away great sources of empathy. You create a helpless apolitical mob that is easy prey to the Right wing.

[@dn1197]

This view provides a basis for reviewing and rethinking our traditional understanding of human history and development.

[@keastymatthew2407]

Sshhhh..... Men are talking. Go play with your hair and unconsenting children

[@benmcconaghy3313]

excellently put!

[@masiosare3307]

Yannis and David Nothing more to add but thank you thank you thank you. From Mexico where for fifty years I have been exposed first hand some of the great civilizing influences of indigenous cultures from Huicholes in the north to Tsotsiles in Chiapas and many more. Communities in which until contaminated from outside theft is virtually non existent, the stranger is welcomed and whatever meager fare is generously (and embarrassingly) shared.

[@234cheech]

the land time forgot the northan hemisphear is ware the brain expanded it became more smarter think of the world today what you see is all because the human being movin north became smarter due to brain formation

[@ankushds7018]

Chiapas! Where the Zapatistas exist!

[@KassJuanebe]

Prehistory IS sexy and fascinating. Where we came from is inherently interesting, allowing us to understand where we might go. Which prehistoric points we select and draw through which aspect of the present gives us a choice of futures to move toward.

[@philcutts9644]

thank you for a thoughtful discussion, I have just bought The Dawn of Everything. I have often struggled with the concept that a species can be hundreds of thousands of years old but "civilization" is only ten thousand years old. Sea travel, navigation, astronomy, acrhitecture, warfare, animal husbandry etc appear clearly to have developed over a much longer timeline. I would gladly attend public lectures and discussions on this, it is a great shame David Graeber is no longer with us and I hope David Wengrow continues his research and writing.

[@colterino]

This makes me happy and makes me feel connected to history and possibility. It makes me feel human. It also makes me feel joyful that such minds inhabit this planet, now, in space and time. Thank you David for your work and Energy, so bravely and well continuing with David Graeber in your heart and soul. Please accept our acknowledgment of that. And all the threads that weave your world And ours. Both you and Yanus , Together, bring so much thought and clarity to the myriad strands of humanity and history that have brought us to this point in history, always on going, hopefully. A truly fascinating discussion/event every thinking person should witness. My sincerest gratitude. I shall share widely to my closest friends. Happy holidays from a little corner of New England. 🙏❤️

[@geoffreynhill2833]

I think it was in his "Candide" (c. 1757) that Voltaire introduced a "Red Indian" as a wise and searching character in contrast with the foolish know-it-all Dr. Pangloss. (Green Fire, UK) 🌈🦉

[@vivalaleta]

I was excited by the title. Two great minds meeting.

[@somosknow1]

I’ve read DOE twice now & think I’ll probably go back for a 3rd. Truly epic work & an incredibly fun read to boot. Brilliant conversation here. Thank you

[@danielasteierer6135]

I recently bought both presenters’ books. I cannot wait to read it. Thank you for the truth and different perspective that challenges the existent views of today.

[@AbdoKesserwani]

Really interesting conversation. Marvellous book deserves to be discussed in this manner.

[@gunner5173]

Indigenous thought given respect is most welcome! What a shame the referendum in Australia to have the Indigenous Voice To Parliament did not win. It would be a gift to us all to hear their perspective. Loved this interview, thanks.

[@numbersix8919]

Thanks for having these guys on! Please take down Harari's photo from your Wall of Fame.

[@TheSeanzor]

What an insightful and revealing exchange. I thank both of these gentlemen for their dedication to this frank discourse.

[@lubishomem]

A debate between two great minds, fabulous

[@voltcorp]

I love it that Yanis uses the webcam beautification filters on max

[@catherinemoore9534]

Yanis, your reasoning is as clear and logical as that of your father. 👍👏 The discovery of iron changed the lives of people all around the world as well as their environment in prehistoric times.

[@cheri238]

How exciting to hear this!! How did I miss one? I am always amazed by intelligence and I love all of you. Books 📚 Did not Carl Jung meet the indigenous American Indians and what was his assumptions? I loved David Graeber, anthropologist and David Wengrow's work and now with Yanis Varoufakis expertise. This was brilliance. With the deepest appreciation and admiration respect for contributions to humanity. RIP, David.❤️✨️

[@canicannonball4464]

this is absolutely fantastic! thank you so much for uploading this!

[@katerinapapatheodorou1727]

This was a truly enjoyable conversation! Thank you!

[@JonTeriini]

Brilliant duo for a talk

[@rudstoncullen3410]

What a combination! Well done getting these two oustanding people together.

[@animefurry3508]

David Graebers "The Dawn of Everything" is really good! As an Anthropological and Anarchist work! Im glad you bring up Anti Teleology, and the status of Violence of past to Violence now, really reminds me of the concepts of Divine vs Mythic Violence!

[@detectiveofmoneypolitics]

Economic investigator Frank G Melbourne Australia is following this very informative content cheers Frank 😊

[@Lambby]

I wondered what a conversation between these two would sound like as I was reading the book, haha. Great conversation, could listen to them chat for days. Thank you!

[@rafay17]

Really brilliant conversation. Thanks 😊

[@johannafreeburn3061]

what a truly lovely interview.thankyou. ❤

[@acorpuscallosum6947]

Wow, what a collaboration

[@pamdemonia]

Thanks for this. Been slowly reading the Dawn of Everything. So mind expanding and yes, funny!

[@Ian_Paq]

Just started - A New History of Humanity. Its really good, i need to finish it to get my final view on it! The philosophical inputs of local's tribes on enlightenment is interesting! Enlightenment being core to liberal ideas, i am challenged to say the least!

[@davidcampbell4445]

I've read more than half, very slowly and carefully. Encouraging to reason logic and our sense of truth.

[@shpritzer]

OMG, this is gold. Edit: already heard it on the podcast a year ago. :( Never mind, worth a revisit.

[@mariettestabel275]

Brilliant! as always. Greeks- The Light of the World. Thanks to you Both.

[@markbono1929]

I love that not only did you guys write this work David and David, but you have networked with Yanis Varoufakis who is one of the few economists who does not deliberately obfuscate economic discussion to pretend to greater meaning and efficacy of financial ideas.

[@adamszanyi2242]

What a great exchange

[@iart2838]

Love the versatile views on civilizations

[@redhandtheblack]

This conversation made me buy the book. Good job!

[@crieff1sand2s]

It's a wonderful book....

[@stephen_pfrimmer]

Dewey's Art as Experience might be worth reading in regard to this. Thank you for this superb exchange.

[@frankyesjosh587]

So powerfull exchange discussion between two minds!!

[@cinnamongirl5410]

Great interview!

[@scottjones-singersongwrite6193]

So refreshing - thank you both and the late, great David Graeber.

[@OguzDemirelli]

What an amazing disscusion. Thx u

[@richardouvrier3078]

Graeber was one of the great social thinkers of history. Up there with Karl Marx. His finding that everything was bullshit, especially jobs (griftonomics) , is timeless and incipiently revolutionary.

[@kaisersozay99]

wicked discussion chaps. nice one.

[@rhodeskirkpatrick1408]

Im only 50 pages into The Dawn of Everything and it's just fantastic, 100% recommend!

[@staninjapan07]

Fascinating, thanks.

[@jdcharlwood]

Just bought the book and looking forward to reading it. I notice that Darlington's book -The Evolution of man and society' is not quoted yet might actually have some relevance to the arguments. (also a big fan of Technofeudalism!)

[@nkenchington6575]

Excellent!

[@terencenxumalo1159]

good work

[@chriszikos3672]

Great talk. One thing, the Louisiana site David dates 3000 bc as hunter gatherer society. Historians however date the agricultural revolution circa 10000 bc.

[@PaulThronson]

What was the primary influence of the enlightenment thinkers? 1. The Catholic Church? 2. The Reformation 3. Renewal in Classical Scholarship 4. The Indigenous critique on Western Civilization? The four stages of cultural awareness.

[@minniefantasia-xp7yd]

Splendid Mersi pt jartiere că eu îs taranca și n am!

[@marykayryan7891]

The only "material given" is that we all have to eat. How we decide to do that; what we decide to eat; the social structures we create in order to eat, those are not "given."

[@marianhunt8899]

We also need some health care otherwise we could die from injuries etc.

[@kellymaguire7912]

ooh. Dream team!

[@parsley8554]

Great

[@savirubin]

Who gives the most money dominates the dialogue the museum must adhere to , Rockefeller, and the Met in NYC for example.

[@dominicobrien1625]

At the end of reading the book I played "it ain't necessarily so"

[@marykayryan7891]

I think that the academic and intellectual commitment to this idea of "inevitable developmentalism" from the socalled primitive to the supposedly advanced civilization is based in large part on 19th century (and earlier) racism.- as indeed is the whole idea of social evolution. It is predicated on the idea that white Europeans are some pinnacle of development contrasted to the "primitive" social organizations of the "others" often darker skinned people. (One wonders about physical evolution as well. Not that it did not happen, but that it also wasn't, as Yanis says, an "inexorable vector" of progress. But that is another question.) Bottom line is that Wengrow and Graeber have opened up a hopeful view of the possibilities of human social capability.

[@LUISARAMOSCRICK]

It is necessary to correct the introductory text. David Graeber is very much alive as can be seen. It doesn't make this dialogue less interesting.

[@fabiodeoliveiraribeiro1602]

It is not possible to make a clear distinction between civilization and barbarism, as organized violence and its catastrophic consequences have negatively affected all peoples from time immemorial to the present. What we call civilization is an immense pile of rubble and corpses lying on top of other pile of rubble and corpses. Even the pacifism of some people is capable of awakening insane and violent reactions. There is no revolutionary hope based on the principle of justice that does not eventually result in industrial-scale organized murder and nasty dictatorship. Humanity has dragged itself from one illusion to another, clinging to the hope of an impossible restart for over 3,000 years. If we're lucky (I say lucky, because we don't have any sense or sanity) humanity won't be wiped out by nuclear war. And at the exact moment I see this video, the apes are in their tanks killing each other in the heart of Europe and others striving so that the killing is not interrupted.

[@bigbenji6]

I keep faith, there is good in humanity, I see it every day

[@fabiodeoliveiraribeiro1602]

@@bigbenji6 I understand. But let me tell you an alchemical secret: faith is just the harbinger of despair. Man needs to go beyond both to realize the priceless value of indifference. Only when he becomes indifferent to his own feelings, thoughts and beliefs does man begin to see the world clearly as it really is.

[@bigbenji6]

@Fabio de Oliveira Ribeiro I kept the faith and I kept voting Not for the iron fist but for the helping hand For theirs is a land with a wall around it And mine is a faith in my fellow man Theirs is a land of hope and glory Mine is the green field and the factory floor Theirs are the skies all dark with bombers And mine is the peace we knew Between the wars

[@JasonUmbrellabird]

I'm not sure if this correlates to Brien Foerster's work of megalithic study and theory of a major cataclysm 12,000 years ago?

[@ManuelFelipeMasiasRomero]

About the indigenous perspective on europeans, its imposible no to read the "Coronica y buen gobierno" of Guaman Poma Ayala

[@dimkk605]

Yesterday Varoufakis was assaulted by bullies in public. They broke his nose. He was at a restaurant in the centre of Athens. Along with DM25 members. He chose not to be escorted by his personal security and the result was a cruel attack to his face and Democracy...

[@mariettestabel275]

Hope Everything is Ok with Him...

[@dimkk605]

@@mariettestabel275 Thank you for your concern! Yes he is totally fine! He may not need a nose surgery eventually. All parliament parties condemned this attack. From the right to the left. A 17-year-old was arrested today. A criminal charge was laid. The police is after many more individuals. We 'll see.

[@mydogsbutler]

The irony is he wasn't assualted by Varoufakis fantasy claim of "hired thugs" (i.e. implying government political opponenents or rightwing extremists). He was assaulted by anarchist thugs. After years of Varoufakis shamelessly defending anarchist terrorism against police, the government, the private sector, and the public... It will be comical to see how Varoufakis tries to back peddles his latest conspiracy theory.

[@dimkk605]

@@mydogsbutler We dont know yet who assaulted him for sure. I wouldn't believe government's narration about "anarchist thugs". I think this is possible too. But let's stick to facts for the time present. If this is the case, as you claim, then ideed this is an irony....tragic irony.....

[@mydogsbutler]

@@dimkk605 No. police caught them. Just random punks. Not “hired thugs” like far leftist conspiracy theory peddling varoufakis claimed. Sick of this varoufakis shamelessly defending countless acts of violence by anarchist goons.

[@9robke123]

Let me grab a snack, I know I'm in good company :)

[@DjSneezyy]

I do like Wengrow and Graeber, but I do feel like they misunderstand the point about dialectical materialism. It is not deterministic, it believes that BOTH the material world and the world of ideas are incredibly important in shaping society. Dialectics comes from the latin word dialogue, referring to a process where the material world and the ideational world are speaking back and fourth with each other in a dialectical process, which shapes society forward. What dialectical materialism holds is that there is a primacy on the material world. This is a rather basic insight. As Yanis' Marx quote alluded to, "Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please". If I have the idea today of going to the gym, but there is no gym in my city, it is gonna be difficult for me to go to the gym. Similarly, if there is a tyrant with the idea of building a hierarchical society in which he/she is on top of the ladder, he/she will only be able to do so if they got some material means that they can use as leverage to help them achieve that vision, ie. money, debt or military. The idea that various hierarchical societies just emerged through people "experimenting" with different societal structures is not true. Try telling the the slaves and the colonized people throughout history that their society was "voluntary experimenting". That notion is fundamentally untrue. The KZbin channel "what is politics", has a good critique on the Dawn of Everything for anyone interesting in this critique . Can recommend. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pXuseYqhlLJmb5o

[@F--B]

Power differentials occur when 'niches' open up. The 'expansive' urge, the will to power, is always present and looking for opportunities, but traditional prohibitions (scaling traps) keep it constrained. When a niche opens up, it takes advantage.

[@mattbonanza9032]

❤👍

[@PaulThronson]

Love this, give me more Google

[@abdulghani8269]

Danke Y, Varoufakis

[@delfimoliveira8883]

Isn't the Genesis story a cultural memory of the mith of the simple life In pre agriculture societies?

[@voltcorp]

that's a funny proposition if you try to make other peoples' origin myths fit in. where does the giant turtle come in?

[@ahctlucabbus]

@@voltcorp The earth's horizon, looking at a distance from atop the turtle. Quite smart hypothesis if you look at turtles all day :)

[@singingway]

Graham Hancock gave similar respect for prehistoric Earth work builders (see Netflix Ancient Apocalypse) and people attack him because they interpret that as detracting from later cultural development.

[@anjaseidl4003]

You are discussing so many things, history, philosophy, political systems. Have a look at this: it is important with respect to social housing in Chinas recent past. China‘s BIGGEST traditional communal home for more than 600 people - Fujian Hakka Tulou | EP8, S2

[@JoeSegal]

Mr. Faroufakis, I'm sorry about the loss of your father.

[@richardselinkoff4170]

I'd like to hear a response to the observation that all human cultures and societies since the emergence of homo sapiens, or perhaps the emergence of the genus homo, have had to cope with at least two biological hangovers embedded in the genome, each in its own way. I see these as being: a) the persistence due to longer lifespans of superfluous amounts of testosterone in males beyond that which is necessary for the reproduction required for the perpetuation of the species, and b) the presence within a small percentage of the species of a genetic predisposition for the psychopathy-narcissism-sadism personality driven with the urge to dominate and engage in other well-known behaviours that many of us see as destructive, and that every surviving society has apparently worked out their own individual ways of coping with these behavioural predispositions.

[@shadow2010shadow2010]

Why did a type of industrial revolution not happen earlier

[@clfm20]

There is a great tradition of people envisioning the past as a representation of the world as they would like it to be. I would approach this book with care.

[@someonenotnoone]

Just make sure you approach all books regarding the past the same way, because this book stands in contrast to a standard narrative built by many books.

[@TJ-hs1qm]

invisible force field 😶‍🌫

[@nickfish8345]

This is hardly relevant, but is because he does it so often: what is David looking at top right? Is he speaking to the mike but looking up at a screen top right? I've read the book: massive supply of food for thought.

[@canicannonball4464]

54:48

[@tonimojo5859]

37:52

[@jayjack2046]

How can Earth go forward without knowing its past this is Lifetime awareness Earth Finance future

[@robmusorpheus5640]

Okay Yanis, if the phrase ought not to be socialism vs barbarism, lets try: democracy vs private ownership of all things. These things are the same. These. things. are. the. same.

[@matthewdeepblue]

I love how they put f****** Emma Watson up there like "look at the great mind we've talked to" haha.

[@marykayryan7891]

"Struggle" and "survival of the fittest" are not "true theories" as Yanis says. Darwin (god love him, and we do) did not do most of his own field work because of his health and commitment to being home with his children. He relied on the reports of people who had huge agendas-colonial administrators, clerics and so forth. When Kropotkin (a Russian anarchist with a totally different agenda than the inherently racist one of 19th century Europe) looked at the same data as Darwin, he saw, not struggle as the basis of lifeway organization, but cooperation. Pre-existing ideas of how human life exists informed both men. The whole idea of a fight to the finish needs to be reexamined.

[@marykayryan7891]

What "determines" the effects that any given human "invention" (such as capitalism or metallurgy) will have, is not the invention itself, but any hierarchical structure within which it gets used. As capitalism is itself hierarchical and expansionist/imperialist by nature (which metallurgy is not) it has had a radical transformative effect which was "inevitable" by its nature. The question is more what would the socalled industrial revolution have been had it not been within a capitalist framework. And no, capitalism and the building of very clever machines are not the same thing.

[@christiansmith-of7dt]

Its super depressing being me

[@SBPoLeshiFt]

InstaLike

[@elultimosonador3958]

this is the part of the left i love !!!!

[@matthewdolan5831]

A lot of my history lessons were just pep talks, UK.

[@alexanderclaylavin]

Didn't David Graeber learn all his bad ideas about non-leadership from Gene Sharp, who was an operative for the intelligence community?

[@KilaKrumpira]

Aww, the man who sold the world... I mean Greece 😂

[@alexwelts2553]

I think hierarchy comes from when bird mites came and took feathers off of the dinosaurs. Hierarchical structure is arachnid in nature from the smallest scale

[@Tayyla007]

Interesting idea❤

[@firasyassin3445]

why do you invite a guest when it is you who talks most of the time???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[@abuziyadandersen1629]

How can he infer strictly from +10k year old architecture that there was *no* inequality in that society? Consider how many ways people can live that don’t leave an ecological impact. There are plenty of ways to live that Allah re complex, developed, mutually beneficial but also don’t leave behind, for example, idols or complex temple structures.

[@someonenotnoone]

Timestamp for this supposed claim of *no* inequality?

[@Myndy123]

The dawn of everything is beautiful fiction book written by a good-hearted propagandist

[@srolesen]

Varoufakis is always interesting but I really wish that academics would be a lot more sensible about Native Americans, much of it seems like naive fantasies compared to actual records and artwork. Reality is they were the apex predator of their land and in everlasting conflict with other apex predators and once the Europeans arrived that conflict carried on until they were eventually crushed.

[@mikesoussan]

why are we still wondering about human origins ... We have every reason to trust the Sumerians and other ancient accounts... That homo sapiens were created within civilization by beings whose nature is unclear (but definitely not ethereal or spiritual but of flesh and blood) and definitely advanced culturally and technologically (Indians, Greeks and others speak of their 'gods' using flying machines to move around)... as a matter of fact, money, economy, agriculture etc were there before the homo sapiens, and grunting cavemen and hunter-gatherers were not exactly our ancestors but an aberration... they reverted to a primitive state because they either were kicked out or run away from a 'civilized' setting ....

[@edmundleung2098]

And these civilizations died out. That tells more about humanity then these guys are advocating.

[@someonenotnoone]

What?

[@gushutchinson8758]

I can't bear listening to Yanis, the guy who sold out the Greeks

[@someonenotnoone]

How did Yanis sell out the Greeks? He called out the unsustainable pattern Greece had fallen into and put a stop to it.

[@sandponics]

Yanis Varoufakis constantly attempts to create confusion in the world because he was frightened by a dog as a child. He opens his mouth and lets all the crap spew out.

[@someonenotnoone]

What is he saying that's confusing you?

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