Yes, you should also move upwards when running

[@honza1859]

Nice video. Common message from many of these videos are: When something is bad, it doesnt mean that doing exact opposite is good. Often optimal way is somewhere between these two extremes.

[@robertsiegl8164]

Very nice explanations, the cannon ball illustrations are really helpful

[@viCoN24]

I feel there is little to get out of some of the recent videos which personally discourages me from checking out your course because I don't know what I'd be getting yourself into. I'm a beginner runner who understands the cannonball analogy but I can't translate it to my running technique. I've spent 10 minutes watching this video where you explain the same idea twice - once as a cannon, once as a golfer - but you don't show how we can relate it and/or train for it when it comes to running. I feel like I wasted my time and didn't learn anything new. You are a specialist, a running coach with professional equipment so I don't understand why I can't even get a tiny bit of advice related to running technique from a very knowledgeable person like you. I understand it's free, you don't owe me anything and you don't have to do it - I just wish it was more straightforward and useful to someone who watched your video. I believe I might be missing the point as someone with limited understanding of the topic but I just wanted to share my perspective after watching some of your videos. I'm sorry if I come off negative/bitter - I just feel I've had my hopes up after some of your videos and now I feel like I'm either too inexperienced to learn from them or simply imagined this channel being more than what it is.

[@jf8138]

It was very obvious to me what the point of the video was, so I am not sure where you lost it at. You MUST be watching this video in a vacuum, I assume, because it ties in very well with all his other content.

[@jf8138]

Definitely you are too inexperienced is what it seems. Its very obvious actually. He told you to familiarize yourself with Newton and physics, or else this goes over your head, I am willing to bet you are not seeing the forest for the trees.

[@lornadoell]

I recommend you go out and try some of the stuff he talks about. Get a feel for how the different movements feel and translate into better runs. I run for the joy of it, but I find his stuff helps me enjoy my runs even more. I run in Vibram toe shoes, mostly on trails, but I still translate a lot of his advice into my runs. The best advice he has given, IMO is to relax and let hour body move. I'm pushing 60, and have run since elementary school, so I have tried and listened to a lot of advice. Again, IMO, this guy is good. Good luck in finding your joy in running.

[@matthewthomas5113]

The main practical take away is to avoid following advice that tells you to actively try to minimise vertical oscillation. I have heard this advice in the past and tried to do it myself so it is worth having this information to avoid taking junk advice.

[@viCoN24]

Thank you for your time and feedback! I know that a lot of earlier stuff is mostly debunking bad advice but sometimes it was additionally followed by a presentation on a treadmill and/or analysis using the equipment to show/prove it. Those videos were awesome but maybe they set my expectations a bit too high. I really liked the jump rope video as it concisely explained where it comes from, how it can be applied and what will be the benefit of that training. In that sense, I feel this video lacked a bit of a clear takeaway for someone like me compared to other videos. I can intuitively try to tie it with other videos but as a newbie I wish it had a bit more direct tips or relation to particular aspect of training. I feel that when you hear that something is bad advice it is reasonable to ask for an explanation and some sort of validation behind that claim - especially if someone is knowledgeable and has the tools to make it clear with a good example and directly relate it to the topic with their level of expertise. I believe it would be much more helpful to a runner, if a running technique example followed the explanation presented by a running technique expert on a channel debunking bad running technique advice. Good luck on your runs, too!

[@stuartrobinson1593]

Hey man! Appreciate your thoughts, as always. Do you happen to have a video which details the correct dynamic hip action which would increase a runner’s efficiency? Thanks.

[@mikevaldez7684]

It's pure physics. I get it & remembered my Newtonian mechanics class!! Ideally, discounting resistance, 45° would be best because the vector components maximize the sine & cosine! Yay. Thank you🙋🙏

[@SpringSnabbare]

And thank you because you understand that it is pure physics. All too often I have to argue with people who have their own idea of how running works even though so much of it comes down to the laws of physics and pure mechanics.

[@mikevaldez7684]

@@SpringSnabbare Yes, so funny 🤣. I didn't even realize at first that this comment you answered was written by me 2 months ago! I'm getting older, but still love running. Your channel is the best. 😁🙋🙏

[@honza1859]

One more thing - when using analogy with cannon we should consider two things - if we want to achieve with given starting force the longest possible distance then we should tilt the cannon in some specific angle (maybe around 40 degrees - so called ballistic curve) - but in this case the speed the cannonball will travel in horizontal direction will not be as fast as if we tilt the cannon more to the ground. In fact lower the angle of the cannon, the faster horizontal speed we get. But - "steps" will be shorter so we will need to use more steps and if every step costs the same amount of energy (independent of the tilt angle) we will be out of energy sooner. So my opinion is - lower "starting (takeoff)" angle will make the horizontal movement faster (and will also mean less up and down movement) but will have more energy costs. There is of course another aspect - we can choose how high power we will use in every step - so we can use more power and larger take off angle or less power and smaller takeoff angle - with approximatelly same horizontal speed (when using these angles and powers in specific amounts). Needed to say - it is only model of real situation, eg. in real running too much power in every step will make us tired very soon, the same situation is with very short very fast steps even with little power of each step.

[@honza1859]

There is also one thing - but it is really speculative and someone with more background in biology should refine it: Maybe there are two groups of muscles (tendons) that works independently - one for horizontal force and one for vertical force - so we can use both and maybe it is not true that when I use more horizontal force then I have to use less vertical force - to spend the same amount of energy. And another thing - I heard about theory that what really matters is vertical force and horizontal is almost zero - when running in constant speed (because of inertia). But my opinion is that also horizontal force should be quite high - to maintain the constant speed and not to slow down.

[@paulnorman8274]

​@@honza1859 In distance running, as opposed to sprinting, you spend almost the entirety of the run simply maintaining speed. You also move slowly enough that; unless you are dragging your feet, which I bet pretty much everyone agrees is bad technique; there is virtually no external friction. Air resistance is very slight at distance running speeds. So, once up to pace, all you really do, is bounce up and down. Inertia and conservation of momentum does the rest. With such little friction, the only way you can get away with directing any meaningful energy backwards while still simply maintaining speed, is if you compensate by also directing energy forwards, aka braking, during another part of your stride's ground contact. Since: Absent meaningful frictional drag, any force directed backwards, will accelerate you. Hence, to stay at the same speed, you then need to supply a corresponding decelerating force at some other time. IOW, any "running technique" in which you direct force horizontally; backwards; UNLESS you are accelerating; by mechanical necessity requires you to then also, at some other time, be directing the offsetting energy forwards, AKA braking. Such braking/accelerating costs energy. It would be much more efficient to simply bounce up an down without disturbing your existing momentum. Of course, not even the best of runners manage to bounce up and down without any internal "friction." They may be super talented and run in "super shoes", but they're not superconducting and internally friction free. But such bouncing up and down without slowing the momentum you have already built up, is what you; in the very abstract; want to aim for. I'm not a running coach, and it won't surprise me in the slightest, if telling runners to just try bouncing up and down is far too abstract to produce any useful learning wrt how to run efficiently in the real world. But from a purely treat-the-body-as-a-blackbox mechanical viewpoint, this is almost exactly what you want to do: Simply minimise the degree to which you interrupt your already existing momentum at each footfall. Since you have to be air born, or you will drag your feet; and gravity does pull you down, this then resolves to: Exerting pulses of vertical force adding up to just exactly the total required to counteract gravity, while interfering as little as possible with existing momentum in the horizontal plane. Or, in less technical, plain English: After having been given an initial push up to your desired pace: Spending the rest of the run simply bouncing up and down.

[@honza1859]

@@paulnorman8274 Hi, i agree that runner should try to minimize breaking forces. But I think that these are always present - even during technically correct gait cycle. Another breaking force si wind resisntance that is significant at high speeds (15km/h and more I guess). Another question is how much of the force during pushoff should be directed forward and how much upwards.

[@deanebona9505]

It’s interesting how much goes into running. Learning about the ideal form and optimizing it to get the best results. As a new runner, I’ll take this new info with a grain of salt. My goal is to build my fundamentals and also not get overwhelmed by the technicals but enjoy the aspect of running.

[@SpringSnabbare]

I know it's very easy to get overwhelmed by all the things you can learn about running technique. It's also impossible to try to keep 14 things in your head at the same time while running. It's a sure way to mostly just get tense and force movements. Therefore, I make sure that everyone I meet makes all the adjustments into one coherent movement, more like making the choreography into a dance. Once the choreography is in place, it's automatic. You don't have to think. This is my goal with every runner I meet, even if I only meet them once. When we're done, they shouldn't have to think about anything at all, just go with the flow/dance, if you know what I mean.

[@deanebona9505]

@@SpringSnabbare Thank you for commenting and making this very educational content. I have been running for at least two weeks and have discovered that I run better without music than with. I keep an internal four beat count and find myself more focus on my form and breathing. Also, I try listening to a podcast to help run at a conversational pace. Thanks again!

[@honza1859]

@@SpringSnabbare I have heard that good thing is also to try to refine at most two things at a time - yes, then you maybe don't work on running technique as one whole movement but you can run "as you were taught" + "concentrate your mind on these two things". And next time on another two. And the next time on run as a whole movement - and find the most problematic part (or two) of that movement, etc.

[@mikevaldez7684]

@@SpringSnabbare Where are you located?

[@mikevaldez7684]

Awesome 👍

[@maxaandesson]

You should make a review of run academys running plans! I find them way to intense. Some plans contain more interval/threshold days then easy/long runs!

[@SpringSnabbare]

How to write really good training programs is not my specialty. And if I am not very good at it, I should probably not write reviews on other people's programs. How the body works when you run and how to be as efficient as possible based on your conditions and your goals, however, I'm pretty good at it. So I'll stick to that.

[@maxaandesson]

@@SpringSnabbare thanks for your very good reply!

[@TheSutov]

So we are talking a spring-motion, generated in the knees, connected with the ankle-push and hip-forward.

[@francescocasadei8840]

Very good explanation and it all makes sense. Is Garmin's Vertical Ratio a good metrics then to improve the combination of up/down movement (veritcal oscillation) versus horizontal movement? Vertical ratio divides vertical oscillation by stride length and then shows your ratio as a percentage. Based on your explanation I'd say that minimizing vertical ratio alone is not enough, because there's always a way to make it arbitrarily small by having an almost zero vertical oscillation, which you explain is not really the ultimate goal (e.g. one could take mini steps, equivalent to cannon pointing straight ahead). Perhaps the vertical ratio per given pace would be better, because that would ensure a minimum stride length (though this neglects that pace is really a combination of cadence and stride length). I mean, if I lower the vertical ratio running at a given pace, does that mean that I became more efficient and use less energy?

[@moshdee456]

45° will achieve the greatest R value. Can't believe i never thought of the

[@ibaryabaq9197]

My man, you need a 40 second summary of your main takeaways in the beginning.

[@CSRunner7]

Yep people end up using their big muscles to drag themselves forward and waste much more energy then correctly utilising their elastic system and incorporating some vertical oscillation to take them up AND forward.

[@justanoldfashionedrunner605]

i enjy your videos a lot and find them very helpful. About the stiff hip i wonder, if i should feel th ehips rotating while running. About the push off i wonder, if i should make my big toe actively and additionly to my leg as a whole push forward and upward

[@SpringSnabbare]

Yes, you should feel the hip rotating. It's not really a two-dimensional rotation but more of a three-dimensional movement where the hip moves more like a kayak paddle, if you know what I mean. But just letting your hip move backwards on the side where your foot is on the ground might help you. But you should not actively rotate the hip, but rather relax around the waist and let the rotation take place. "Let it happen" not "rotate the hip". As for the big toe, it's a bit tricky. It is very important for stability and your running. But to actively try to push off with your big toes about 175 times a minute I don't think is a good idea. It is almost never the case that you work with individual body parts. Everything is part of chain reactions. So even if the big toe is involved in your push-off, the work it does is part of this chain reaction and not something you generally need to think about separately.

[@justanoldfashionedrunner605]

@@SpringSnabbare thank you very much for your kind and long response. That helps a lot. I will try to make the best of it...i will start by staying relaxed with my big toe, but try to push some more from the ankle and arch area. Regarding the hip roatation i will at first just listen into myself, what my hips are doing without me interferring. When the winter comes and we get a little snow, i could try to get the footprints of the right foot and the left foot somewhat closer togerther, while i feel again how the hip area feels and take it from there. I guess as a 68 year old i have to be careful with any changes i do, as i have probably adapted to a lot of wrong movements over the years and i should not rock the boat, specally while i still can run 100 k per week without any pain ( very slow with walking in between)

[@daveb1177]

I am a trail runner. Can you please talk about running technique while running steep uphill and downhill?

[@elhama90]

Fredrik is there anything in particular you should think about when running if you are flat footed? Cheers

[@islamabouelata6575]

I like the canon shot analogy but I would humbly argue that it's an incomplete depiction of the full running cycle, we seem to be spending a very significant amount of energy on the landing and the more we jump vertically the (significantly) more energy we need to spend on the landing to absorb the impact (because of gravitational acceleration) so although the canon ball optimal angle is 45° it seems that the running optimal must be much lower. It is possible to calculate the actual optimal angle mathematically but instinctively I am thinking that it must be actually pretty low, that's why many people are saying that vertical is mostly bad (within reason).

[@H0Fidelity-rq4ry]

Ok. Now, take a hammer and hold ig relaxed and begin using it. If it is a good hammer and you are relaxed, it will bounce up, giving back some of the energy it had when moving down. If you are not relaxed you will make dead blows, having to lift the hammer in every repetition. So, if transferring this to running it is my understanding that the ground contact should be short enough for the elasticity in the body to give some of the energy back when turning back from the ground, moving up.

[@amomchilov]

Just noticed at @5:00, It looks like your display is being clipped around the edges. There's a setting for old TVs called "overscan", which on modern TVs causes the edges to get clipped, but also for everything to get a bit blurry (because the over-stretched image no longer lines up perfectly on the pixels of the display). You can turn it off your TV settings, and everything should look a bit crisper, especially text :)

[@DiesUndDasOderDasDa]

Really like the video but please correct the illustration @5:41. If you invest the same energy then both cannonballs don't reach the exact same height. The tool to understand this is 'parallelogram of force' taught in school. The peak height of a projectile is determined by the initial value of the *vertical velocity component*. Component (within the parallelogram of force) is the important notion here.

[@DiesUndDasOderDasDa]

Btw, the cannonball shot from the steeper cannon spends *more time* in the air before landing, compared to the flatter case. Translated to running this may give us an additional reason why jumping up too high is bad if you want to save time... :-)

[@natethetoe386]

Ya, but why does the cannon have jeep tires on it? I'm so confused.

[@SpringSnabbare]

Because I am a running technique specialist and not an illustrator and I do the best I can 😃

[@mehmetsaglamsaatci7287]

ı run everyday

[@zdravkozoric7844]

So, just run with angle od 45 degree😂

[@honza1859]

I would say "yes" - if your priority is not speed but to save as much energy as possible. Also see my another comment here. (Of course it is only model so the angle can be different.)

[@JFCharland]

@@honza1859 These can be the same goal, especially in a longer race ... (1) save energy and therefore, (2) slow down less. (n.b., I saw your other comment and while it theoretically makes sense, applying it to a specific goal, like a longer race can add some valuable context.)