You don’t need 100 watts per channel

The lust for power is overrated. It’s the quality of the power, not the quantity of the power that matters.
I'm completely independent and you can help support me at / audiophiliac Thanks for your support!

[@caleolsen4869]

I need power to drown out the tinnitus.

[@USNVA-yn6cp]

get a bigger floor fan

[@Turtleback8024]

@Cale Olsen I know right.🙉🥲

[@briang530]

Hahahaha, I know that story. I'd like to be more of an audiophile but the hearing damage from 17 years in the military means that speed, staging, and power mean more than outright accuracy.

[@patriot7734]

Sad, I have to listen to my music with hearing aids..I have about 38 db of just ringing...

[@williamsharp5973]

Around 1974, I had a Marantz 4140 quad pre-amp/amp rated 70 watts per channel RMS at 8 ohms for stereo, and 25 watts per channel at 8 ohms driving four channels. I never played the specs game, considering it an open pit of some sort. However, it had four meters which look two meters extra cool. Being a primitive sort, I rarely looked at them other than to make certain they were moving. I used it with four JBL L100's, which were at the time considered relatively 'efficient' compared with the other top-selling bookshelf speakers of the day. I tried it at the stereo setting , and could tell the difference, but it sounded great to me driving all four channels, and that's the way I used it. And I used it pretty loud. Instead of putting money into two basic stereo amps to get more power, I put it into a TEAC four-channel open-reel deck. Yes, 'consumer' level stuff, but life is a series of priorities.....

[@hiresaudiocosta873]

More power doesn't always equate to needing to play at louder volumes. It has to do with keeping the amplifier in its linearity range for the best quality of sound and a better dynamic presentation.

[@tugboatamerica]

Correct

[@llevine6510]

@@tugboatamerica This just shows you how these "audiophiles" can't even comprehend the basic knowledge in audio systems...they believe in $10k cables but they don't understand why low sensitive speakers need 100W just because they can play equally loud with 30W

[@4nz-nl]

Anyone agreeing to your comment didn't even listen to what Steve had to say. I run my Maggies off of 2x 18W mono amps and they sound great. Unless you push the volume further than "reasonably loud", which I rarely ever do. The sound is very controlled, they really shine until the average output is about 2W/channel. More than enough - I prefer to preserve my ears over showing off a set of 300W amps to my neighbours. PS: No $10K cables here, either ;)

[@frmagnecio]

That threshold where quality degrades happens at really loud volumes when using a good 100 watts amplifier, regular sized residential rooms. Probably way above the levels enthusiasts listen to in their medium sized rooms and speakers.

[@jefferyeckes5343]

@@4nz-nl Extreme views on EITHER side of the power divide are just plain wrong. Your system lacks headroom for anything but the most evenly amplitude distributed music. Add ANY real dynamic range and your theories die an ignominious death. I'm an audio engineer for more than 45 years....

[@dragonflyfab8982]

Man my 100 watt Levinson amp blew me away. I sold it for a 2 watt Zen that drew me into the music. Power corrupts!

[@stephenmead5488]

In studio work, a common rule of thumb is to adjust monitors to a reference level of 80 dBs at -20dBFS. (0dBFS being the peak output for digital recording.) 30Wrms would have an equivalent output of 42.45Wpk given a crest factor of sqrt(2) for a sinusoidal test signal. This would ensure that at peak output of a normalized mastered CD won’t clip the output of the amplifier. To ensure this the -20dB level would be 0.3dB. For the 85dB rated speaker, the output would be slightly less than 80dBs. Assuming a listening distance of 2 meters, the level would be 74dBs. Both channels driven you get 77 dBs at reference level with 100 dBs peak. Seems like respectable levels @ 30Wrms. If the amp has marginal output, it will clip if pushed any harder. Modern pop and rock recordings are often mixed hot with significant compression which can make the 30 watter sound much ballsier.

[@lefizz55]

Having built amp for about 20 years, I have found that generally a lower power amp with a decent power supply will driving almost any speakers. A high wattage one with a smaller transformer and less supply caps will struggle. It's all about have enough ommph for the transient peaks. It's not about continuous rating when it come to audiophile reproduction

[@jordesign]

Although I have not heard them, I do aspire to hear amps like Naim or Hegel, with their large transformers but modest power...

[@richardf7885]

This is one of the most interesting posts that I have heard in quite some time . I know for a fact that my triode wired EL 34 amp at 23.5 watts per channel has far outplayed 300 watt per channel amps . The authority ,cone control and musicality that it has really shows that the numbers are just numbers !

[@kautkascitadaks]

So far everything with more power sounds better to me at the same listening levels, dynamics seem a lot better

[@4nz-nl]

You're confusing more power with better quality amps. Often, better quality amps also have more power, but that doesn't have to be the case. It's like thinking more expensive food and drinks are automatically "better". Good quality water is both better and cheaper for you than expensive beer.

[@kautkascitadaks]

@@4nz-nl no I am not everything being equal more power is always better. There is no problem getting pretty much the same power amps with almost identical build inside(even same components) and still have the more powerful one sound better. It seems you have forgotten about the magic thing called headroo, especially for transients.

[@4nz-nl]

@@kautkascitadaks You're trying to school me here, but forgot to think of the fact that if those two amps have the same limited power supply, at the same power output one does not have more headroom than the other. Rated power output is just a rating, it's nothing magical. Also, if the amps are entirely equal with the same SNR, depending on the design the more powerful one will actually sound worse.

[@TheOzthewiz]

Just for those that don't know, doubling the amplifier power WILL NOT make your speakers play TWICE as loud. You would need an amplifier that is 10X as powerful to do that.

[@matthewarendt4416]

Most people don't realize that decibels are logarithmic and not linear. So doubling the power will not double the sound pressure level. DBs

[@davidjames1684]

@@matthewarendt4416 How do you know most people don't know that? Did you take a survey? It also depends what you mean by double. Here is an example. Suppose you had a mono source of pink noise and you played it thru 1 speaker only for a reference volume level. Next play it thru both speakers (a matched set). Who is to say if that is twice as loud or not? It depends on the person's perception. Suppose someone DID say that is now twice as loud (cuz 2 speakers are playing). So then, going back to 1 speaker at say 1 watt of pink noise, increasing that speaker to 2 watts WOULD double the volume to the same person that said 2 speakers sound twice as loud as 1. Also, what if your SPL is 3dB (in a VERY quiet room) and you double the power? Will it be 6dB SPL now? How is that not doubling the SPL? Define your terms. "Double" is vague the way you refer to it.

[@MrDac0964]

I once saw in one of those audio shows a 5W tube mono each powering huge floor standing speakers and I was surprised how good the sound was... no strain at all. Granted they’re not playing at concert level volume but most of us don’t have concert-size listening rooms anyway in our homes.

[@petersouthernboy6327]

Naturally I HAD to click on the video with those glorious blue glowing McIntosh power meters 😍

[@jeffjames4064]

All hail McIntosh !👍

[@MrStingraybernard]

Just need to be a millionaire to buy them

[@petersouthernboy6327]

@@MrStingraybernard - McIntosh is on the affordable side of audiophile. I bought a couple pieces of Mac that were gently used. And according to Audiogon they’re worth just about what I paid for them eight years ago.

[@154Jamesp]

Good points in this video. I find I like the sound of high current amplifiers. They seem to sound "faster".

[@patrickmeylemans9627]

Fully agree with this, my VU’s pointing to 2 watt for 802D3’s and it gets pretty loud for a living room. A Primaluna with 35watt/ch. is driving the big speakers with ease... you need a good amp and you are good... look at Accuphase class A Amp, with 30 W into 8 Ohm...

[@nicholascremato]

I love the arguments at my club meetings. My amp is bigger than yours, Mine runs in class A, Mine are Monoblocks, My wife is a supermodel. Argument over!

[@kachilda]

My wife's not a super model but I'll take her over my surround sound system any day of the week...

[@williammorales8204]

@Terry Connor Telling our wives they are a supermodel, will get you that bigger amp, btw.

[@williammorales8204]

@Terry Connor They say that then want a full carat ring lol

[@juncags1]

@@williammorales8204 True. The finance officer has to be 'tweaked' in a nice way for the project to proceed... :-)

[@Ibhenriksen]

I also learned that clutter helps with sound acoustics haha I used to leave my listening room impeccable, and I noticed that famous slap echo returned. So I put stuff back in the room. Its not crazy messy, but just enough to stop it.

[@miltoncrosbie5567]

It's not always about the total power output. I have 250w Parasound amps and most of the time I'm using the first 8-10w of pure Class A power.

[@mikehydropneumatic2583]

Had a NAD 312 (2x30W) with Dali Menuet speakers (85db/Wm) and they sounded very musical.

[@richmarks8578]

Everything you have said is absolutely true!!! I used to own a old pioneer receiver that had those analog needle for power output ( coolest thing ), and when I played loud, 2 watts was very normal. Now, with that said, i did hit 5 and 10 watts quite often. When the bass notes kicked in, that's where the power meter went nuts. Low frequency uses ( and requires ) a lot of power ( below 200khz ). When watching movies on your home theater, most don't realize they are only pushing about 20-30 watts through there mains/center when the action gets going. The sub on the other hand is really sucking those watts down ( explosions/ car crashes/etc ). One of the main reasons to have a "sub out" on your receiver is to take the stress off the the amp inside so that it can dedicate power to your mains/center/surround/etc. A powered subwoofer is a must for any home theater. With all that said, power headroom ( also known as dynamic headroom ) is your friend. The more headroom, the better.Also, the more watts the amp is able to pump out, the better. Reason? To save your speaker investment. Yes. To save your speakers. When you run to much power through your speakers, it takes much longer to damage them. If you push your amp to hard, you get whats called distortion, and this will ruin your speakers faster that anything. Distortion is not a linear signal ( smooth control of harmonics/frequency ), and so power increases rapidly when that linear signal becomes unstable ( not enough power for a multitude of reasons ). Distortion can usually be heard at around 10% ( 20 Hz-20 kHz, THD) , but some people are able to hear it at 1%. If you hear distortion, back off or you WILL damage your speakers. I damaged a set of car speakers with a clock radio back in the 80's. These car speakers were rated at 65 watts RMS, and 100 peak. I cracked them with a clock radio ( all because of distortion ). That clock radio maybe knocked out .2-.3 watt of power ( not even half a watt ), and I damaged a set of brand new car speakers.

[@rockrollhi-figuy6824]

Nailed it!! Low power amps are more likely to kill a set of speakers than a high powered one.

[@robbochopper77stereolove92]

Hey Steve. Love the show. My son has a pair of Kef Q100 bookshelf speakers being powered with a Yamaha RS300 stereo amp and as you know the Kefs are rated 86 db sensitivity and the Yamaha is only 50 watts/channel, so they sound pretty good but when I hooked the Q 100s up to my rotel rc1590 pre amp and rb1582mkii power amp they totally transformed. The soundstage got wider and the clarity was 100 times better than the Yamaha. The overall volume was a lot louder and the drivers barely moved. So to your point, yes the lower wattage can be sufficient to create good sound at a decent volume level but the more power you give them I feel the more you will get out of the speaker 10 fold.

[@ArlenMoulton2]

I have a 100w per channel Technics amp from a minisystem and I connected that to a pair of B&W DM601S2 speakers, I don't think I've ever heard a PA system go that loud without clipping!

[@lroy730]

Its depends ! First the Amp needs to match the Speakers. Like you said Efficient Speakers sound good at a lower power than heavy load speakers. My speaker cables (I thought they were decent oxygen free wire) got oxidized green from one end to the other. I do live about 3 miles from the beach . That added about 2 ohms over the 15' of wire. Yes it did make a noticeable difference in volume per watt input. Mostly at the low volume, both highs and lows sounded better with new wire that I made sure was melted then coated with liquid tape, to ensure it did't happen again.

[@mikeday62]

I tried three different 50 watt per channel receivers (all used from Ebay) and a couple of them sounded okay with pioneer andrew jones tower speakers. Then I got a used yamaha AV-50 amplifier for $74 (vintage 1988). Took the cover off and cleaned the pots with DEOXIT. The 30 year old AV-50 is rated 105 wpc @ 8 ohms. The pioneer speakers are rated 6 ohms and sound great with this amp. The very noticeable increase in power over the 50 watt receivers makes an enormous improvement in sound quality and listening enjoyment (rock/electronic music). My rule would be, at least when you're using budget equipment, you will be happier with decent speakers and 100 watts per channel.

[@georgeanastasopoulos5865]

Another great presentation video that also explains a lot of real, practical facts, and clear opinions. Myself, I have a Sony receiver, STR-HD520 (of 2012) of at least 85 Watts, and sounds fine with most music, and is enough. Before, I had an Onkyo at 33 Watts per channel to 2 Forum Model 83 large bookshelf speakers that can handle 5 to 50 Watts, 40Hz to 20KHz +/- 3Db, SPL of 90Db (both of 1987). There is a difference, small as it may seem however; I notice more detail in most music, and with real instruments, too.Later I'm going to purchase a small subwoofer. Thank you, Steve for your real, clear, and logical explanation. Also, vinyl is final.

[@sam66hazmal]

I agree, I now use a Heed Obelisk MK2 I think it’s rated at around 40 watts approx. I play it at about 80db level which is my comfortable listening level. The volume dial on the amp is at 10 o’clock. It sounds marvellous, and there’s plenty of headroom if I need to go louder

[@Dave240Z]

Agree with you! Currently I'm running a pair of mid 80's KEF Coda 3's with an 87DB sensitivity with a early 80's Pioneer SX-820 (rated at 45wpc). IMO it sounds extremely nice, and warm... The speakers are happy and the receiver is too. Like you mentioned, at 3wpc its loud but not ear bleeding loud. My other system, while not what most would call extravagant, is a Late 90's Yamaha RX-V995 Home theater unit running in Stereo mode (No DSP etc... 100wpc @ 8ohms) mated to a pair of KEF 104/2's with a 92DB sensitivity. It the best of both worlds, it performs great at low volumes but when you want to crank it up it does it very well! I'm still blown away with this combination.. the 104/2's and the Yamaha work very well together!

[@owenlaprath4135]

Thank you for chipping in for low power, high quality amps! The only purpose for all that power is to rattle walls and tick off your neighbours, but it never adds to any joy of music for me. My vintage Superscope R-310 with its 5W/chan has BUMPED all other amps I tried off the shelf for 12 years now. The others, inlcuding NAD, McIntosh, Marantz, Technics, Toshiba, and others went back to the closet or to a dealer, the R-310 stayed. The only other one that lasted and is in the living room is my SAE-TWO R3C, which is a 30 W/chan piece. Both are no-fatigue, hear it all, musically enjoyable amps, that also deliver clarity and detail.

[@addonisryan]

I love power and am a big proponent of it, I am a live sound engineer/audiophile, even at home, my smallest stereo amp puts out approximately 80 Watts per channel.I am more into the right amount of power not just astronomically huge amounts of power. I like the "ease" that comes with having more power which keeps the amount of distortion vanishingly small.That in turn allows for better revelation of fine details (I find) because the amplifier is not working hard and therefore has a lot more reserve current available without strain which leads to better ,smoother, more articulate. sound in my opinion, but I get why you say what you are saying, and I agree that we don't always need lots of power, we just need a reasonable amount of good, clean power.

[@4nz-nl]

Clean power is the thing. The power supply for each of my 18W monos is can feed it with 460W if necessary.

[@bretspangler8717]

I am using a vintage 35-watt Pioneer SX-650 to drive my PSB 800's. I got it for 20$ at a garage sale, works perfect, but I imagine it could use a good cleaning and re-capped. This is a receiver I seriously wanted when it was new, was thrilled to find one locally. I had it stored away, but I spilled water into my current amp and killed it, so it was nice to have a backup. This little guy has more than enough power to run my PSB's which have 90db sensitivity

[@JohnMorris-ge6hq]

Bret Spangler Good deal you got there but Pioneer is not an Audiophile company. They are not even mid-fi. But if $20 is all you have I think you hit gold. Vintage isn't always good. The preamp section in any Pioneer would never please me. No detail in the bottom end at low levels. And the typical tissy top end most Japanese receivers/amps have. What a lot of people think is the sound of a crash or high hat cymbal isn't - it's high frequency distortion. We don't hear it as distortion though. It's there on most mid-fi: headphone amps circuits, preamps, and especially in the cheap-o out put stages of Japanese CD players. If you have a good CD player / DAC and you have at any time used an audiophile headphone amp (like the Grado R-1) then you will know what I am referring to. The first time I plugged in my 555 into the Grado R-1 I wondered what happened to the top end. It sounded as if someone had turned down the treble. In fact the high frequency distortion is so low in reference headphone amps that it presents the illusion of the treble being turned down when in fact you are hearing the real sound of cymbals. I kept upgrading and moving up the audiophile ladder and then....OH NO!!! I ran out of money/luck. When components broke down I had to replace them with mid-fi Japanese stuff. Going from a Nad intergrated amplifier to an Onkyo receiver was a let down of grand proportions. No weight in the bottom and too bright. And much less detail. And the headphone amp was just passable.

[@matthewbarrow3727]

It seems that the power required depends on the type of music played. I have a 150 per channel (250 into 4 ohms) driving Martin Logan SL3s. My system runs off a 300 watt power (continuous) regenerator which allows peak draws of 900 watts. The speaker sensitivity is 88dB, which I run at about 75dB. One might think that 1 watt might be good enough. The power regenerator shows a green light when below 300 watt draw, but goes red when higher than this. With a lot of music that I listen to, the light stays green. However, with a lot of bass, the woofer is made to work a lot, and this is when the red light stays on. It seems that moving a 10 inch woofer using a large magnet does require a lot of power. While the woofer would still work when it can't draw the power it needs, it is probably not working to its full potential if it is being starved of power. I guess that this is why a fair number of active subwoofers have 500 or 1000 watt internal power amps.

[@aorakiboydog]

Love the painting

[@andythrasher5789]

I ran a Marantz 2230 for a good 10 years from 2004-2014 using a myriad of speakers, some efficient, some not and it was more than adequate for my purposes and uses. I had some inefficient as you speak mid 80 db and I could get more then enough sound using that trusty Marantz. I used to think having alot of WPC was the way to go too but you know all I ever did was pissing off neighbors, blowing drivers, and causing some hearing damage, lol. I'm now just running some old P-P EL84 stereo amplifier and could care less about ultimate audiophile grade stuff - it is how the sound is conveyed is what matters to me at this point in time. And yes - 9-12 watts of EL84 P-P power per channel gets plenty loud too!

[@HarkamalAujla]

You Bring good solutions with a real world budget and perhaps us in mind. Wish audio could be described as my local shops dont have these quality desktop speakers such as ElAC or powered ones . Im figuring my soundbar solution and learnt desktop spkers are my answer with power

[@jkherberger]

Steve, what does this amp sound like one your Maggies?

[@daviddixon2209]

I used to be that guy, searching for maximum watts. Now I'm the guy looking for affordable hearing aids. Clean and accurate beats loud, trust me!

[@jukingeo]

Oh, I went crazy too. In my late teens and early 20's I wanted more power. In the end, I had a massive Onkyo M504 165wpc power amplifier with a Cerwin Vega subwoofer and two custom bookshelf speakers I made myself. All in an 8 by 11 bedroom. Yeah....overkill. However, I got the Onkyo for nothing and just had to fix it and I loved the big green analog power meters it had on it...very much like the huge blue meters on the McIntosh amps. But I had noticed that when I was playing the amp, the meters never swung high up on the scale and I had to put it on the reduced range to get some nice swing on them. I would say that what Steve was saying above is correct. Even though I liked my music on the louder side, I RARELY hit 40 to 60 watt peaks and for 'normal' listening, it hovered more around 20 watts. So while I think a 30wpc amp would have been small for that system. I would have been fine with a 50wpc amp easily. There was no way I needed the insane power of the M504 in a bedroom. I mainly kept it for many years because I liked the huge meters, but in a fairly recent move, I finally decided to part with it. The thing was a beast too and weighed about 50 lbs. Nowadays, I am looking into what can be done with lower powered amplifiers and higher efficiency speakers as I don't want a huge rack of equipment anymore. What Steve didn't mention above, is that a key figure in matching an amplifier to speakers is the SPL or 1w/1m rating on a speaker. For every 3db increase in a speaker system's efficiency you need only half the power to get it to the same volume. So for example, with his 86db speakers, if you go to an 89db speaker, you half the power, so a 15 watt amplifier on the 89db speaker will have the same output as 30watts going to the 86 db speaker. So you could imagine how loud something with the efficiency of a Klipschorn (105db 1w/1m) would sound with only a couple watts of power. BUT the Klipschorn is a VERY huge and VERY expensive cabinet. But still, the idea that a speaker like the Klipschorn could easily rip you a new one with only 5 watts of power, is mind blowing. So if you want to get fairly loud with low powered amplifiers, do take the efficiency into consideration. Try to get it above 90...better yet, over 93.

[@lonelycake4114]

So what to with 400 watt speakers? Will any amp do?

[@4nz-nl]

@@lonelycake4114 Depends on what you use the speakers for. If you're planning to use those 400 watts, you will need an amp stable at a multitude of that. But will you?

[@lonelycake4114]

@@4nz-nl Reading the above posts, im starting to realize that i probably crave loudness to hear details 🤷‍♂️

[@4nz-nl]

@@lonelycake4114 It's a matter of time before the details fade away 🤣

[@carlosbauza1139]

My 50 wpc amp drives my LS50 easily in my medium size listening room. It is the Emotiva Basx a-100. The watts rating gives an idea of the amp's driving ability. What is seldom specified is the power supply's stability when overdriven.

[@AlainCliche]

good point! this reminds me of a crazy audiophile who had a hard time driving his Dayton Wright speakers... He had a 400 watts McIntosh but it kept cliping... he replaced it by a pair of Quad II - which we're only 12 watts - and he had nore more cliping problem!

[@ozein312]

Steve I love your daily show and respect your views. Thank you for educating us! Would you please comment on a match up of Naim Uniti Atom with KEF LS50 as an all in one solution? I would love to see that episode. My current systems is a creek evolution 50a amp and evolution 50cd matched to a kef R700 floor standing speakers. Btw I have a pair of kef Q speakers which are going strong 20 years later and I would never give them away. These are matched up with an old technics hi fi system. Many thanks Steve !!!

[@mk5721]

Steve, I'm watching a lot of your videos and enjoy the content. I am considering buying an NAD C 388 amp because of integrated bluetooth and stability down to 4 ohms. They will be powering a pair of Ohm Walsh 1000s, which are 6 ohm speakers and can handle 200 watts. However, I have a pair of KEF R300s which are rated at 120 watts max for 8 ohms. I would like to also have the same amp power the KEfs. Will pairing the NAD at 150 watts damage the KEF speakers?

[@vukvukovic7064]

I have a Sansui A-40 with 25 watts into 8 ohms... and it sounds amazing... so clean sound, speakers are Crysler LivingAudio CE700... it's only 25 watts but so big sound... :)

[@pekkatervala8476]

My old 2x25W Pioneer has never failed or clipped. Power meters show usually max 2x3W/8 ohms. These days I use it as a phono pre-amp and Denon 7.1 AVR for modern inputs/sources. It sounds the same when using direct stereo mode.

[@timbathras2660]

Recently I’ve been thinking about having two amps to choose from to run my Zu’s. My higher power rogue tube/class d hybrid for ‘big’ listening and then something like a 2 watt per channel Decware SET for low level night time listening. Not that the rogue doesn’t do low level just fine, but really just for the fun of it.

[@marcgabor9690]

I live in a loft - not very big but with high ceilings and a lot of air. My old Marantz 2230 always felt more than powerful enough until I moved into this space. I could still get a good volume going but I had to turn up the gain past 12 o'clock. I added a craigslist special Adcom GFA 5300 for a whopping 100 bucks - with 80w per channel I have a lot more headroom. At first I didn't think it was much louder because turning it up to 12 o'clock (using the Marantz as a preamp now) doesn't sound that much louder but at lower volumes I notice a lot more headroom and dynamics. Also I can really utilize the EQ on the Marantz without pushing the amp too hard.

[@omahahaha]

Here's my experience. I use a Yamaha AVR rated at 105wpc, all channels driven. It drives my Definitive Technologies very well although they do have a powered woofer. When I switched those with some Thiel 1.5s with a much lower sensitivity (around 86 I think), my AVR could not properly drive them. I was afraid of clipping the amplifiers trying to get a decent volume level out of the Thiels.

[@corolex]

I was using two separate 50w/channel emotiva amps and thought I needed more power. So I tried a denon x4200 125w per channel in pure direct mode. I switched back to the emotiva because it sounded cleaner and had more separation between the two channels.

[@bobgauthier1569]

Love my 165 watts Pioneer sx1250s.

[@bobsabin]

Primaluna five (36 Watts) into 86-87db speakers sounds great. Marantz 2230 also great, but I’ve always been in small rooms.

[@GTRJohnny66]

Hi Steve, love your daily show - which does seem to appear mostly daily. When listening to two amps from Rotel, I found their 80w to sound a little smaller and less dynamic than the 130W - even at the same volume. There was a "wideness" and deeper presentation on the bigger amp. I am not sure if this is due to the extra power, or the upgraded parts, or both. But, it did seem to have a good deal more reach than the smaller one. Not sure if this would still be the case with a brand that used mostly the same parts within their line - might be an interesting test.

[@MrDark21knight]

P.S. Nelson pass is crazy genius

[@juliaset751]

Years ago before the email, twitter, etc. I used to exchange letters with Nelson from time to time (real letters). He is not only a certifiable genius, but one of the nicest people I ever haven’t personally met.

[@MrDark21knight]

I've read that too

[@wa2368]

He's alright (no genius). There are many engineers out there like him or better. You think this dude is some Overlord genius because Steve said so.

[@likesnoozn]

I would tend to agree. I have and still use as a 2.1 system only a Proton AA1150 50 watt amp from the early 90’s powering Klipsch KG2 bookshelf’s and a passive BSR sub from the 80’s(the 15” driver was replaced 15 years ago due to rot) into a high ceiling, large studio apt, and at 5-10 watts on the VU meters it’s a very decent satisfying volume. Above 10 watts and it more fills the entire room with great dynamic headroom. I almost never get to 50w or use the Power on Demand feature the unit has for short peaks.

[@sweetmisery5176]

Power is the first thing you will look at if you're a "basshead" when you're already using your chest not just your ears in listening to music...

[@alexanderbelov6892]

My experience with watts shows that most watts are consumed with music having 20-70 Hz frequences at full amplitude. If anyone use bookshelf speakers that intentionally not reproduce 20-70 range so that speakers have fast drop of SPL in this range they probably don't need more than 2x35 watts. But for full range 20Hz-20kHz floorstanding speakers (natural or EQ/DSP corrected) rated 500+W they need at least 2x200W amplifier to have dense low bass. In some audio fragments it yields mentioned 20W, for other parts floorstanding speakers can easily take 200W to produce low bass parts. If floorstanding speakers are powered with 35W amp, they will just silently move bass heads with no sound at all.

[@glpilpi6209]

It's what's happening to the power supply in the amplifier under heavy load that's important . If it runs out of energy the HT rails drop and clipping and distortion kicks in when you start cranking the volume into speakers that are difficult to keep under control.

[@simonhenstock6244]

I use a 20w per channel NAD 310 to power a pair of vintage speakers from 1974 (complete with rubber surrounds and front-facing bass reflex ports) and it's passed all the audiophile diagnostics I've thrown at it from KZbin. I put it down to good SNRs for the amplifier (106db), the CD player (96db) and the phono stage (80db MM, 78db MC).

[@charliedavidson3878]

Another great video , I think the speakers and the genre's you enjoy are factors in power requirements . Example Klipsch LaScala need very little power but martin loganish speakers are power piggies . I have a tiny mc225 and MX110 Klipsch Cornwall combo that lights up a room with full rich sound for jazz blues soft rock / pop ( I call this system my wine and cheese system ) . . Speakers with 80 -90 db 1 watt 1 meter are going to need 20 watts just to get them going . all the new boutique speakers with 6-8 inch woofers 85 db 1 watt 1 meter is going to need serious power to get some air moving . What I like about your video is you get people thinking . Do I need a powerful amp ? do I need efficient speakers ? I say pick the speakers you love best and make them work at any cost . A system should start at the speakers and work it's way forward . I always recommend traditional/ standard / typical 3 way 15" woofer speakers with at least 96 db 1 watt 1 meter efficiency or the new tower standard (Klipsch RF82 - RF7 ) with 3 way 8" -10 woofers with 96 db efficiency or better . You just need to move air and the best way I know how is by volume , larger drivers or more power . 15-30 k speakers and 15 - 30 k amplifiers have horrible resale value they appeal to a very narrow market .

[@chartliner]

I bought a 30 watts rms into 8 ohms Yamaha receiver in the 80's and took it back and got the Yam R700 50 watts per channel ( but with high dynamic headroom I have read, which means they can handle peaks better) which I found gave a much bigger sound as I used it to practice my flute (usually jazz) and needed good volume to be able to hear the details well, my Yamaha also has a spacial exspander knob which I like but I know the purists don't like equalization but not all recordings are well recorded so an equalizer lets you compensate for that. I currently have some vintage AR2's with 10 inch woofers that I find are satisfying with deep bass. Not high end stuff I realize but you can have good enjoyment with a good Buick so to speak. I would rather listen to the best music on a basic stereo than boring music on the most expensive system, of course if you gave me Focal Utopia Grand EM's I would not turn them down. ;) For some reason the high end audiophiles seem to prefer the European or American amps which I don't really understand, if an amp puts out a clean signal that should be the only thing that matters. Here's a great piece of music by Hubert Laws playing Bach.... kzbin.info/www/bejne/aqbHaoKmZqZ5bKM

[@MrDark21knight]

Mr Audiophiliac, I'm using SMSL Q5 pro with polk R20 and PSW10. Never need over 25 on digital dial. Very happy with 🎶 and sound

[@vonclod123]

Depends on your speakers, with hard to drive speakers, it's good to have some headroom. Also, if your speakers impedance dips, you need some current. If your amp doubles the wattage going from 8-4 ohms, it;s a high current amp.

[@howardskeivys4184]

You are right. A good 25W to 30W amp is more than capable of driving speakers to a reasonable listenij level, in an average listening room, prividi it has a decent current reserve, or dynamics will suffer. But the more power the amp has at it’s disposal, the better control it’ll have over the speakers, particularly low frequency. You did say you could notice a differs with you more powerful amp. Interestingly, I have a 135W amp driving a 91DB 8ohm large pair of floor standers. My wife has a 25W amp driving a pair of 90DB 4ohm bookshelf speakers. We live in a ground floor apartment. Our only neighbours live on the floor above us. They’ve never complained about the volume of my music, but, on the odd occasion have complained about the volume of my wife’s music. I’m guessing that my more powerful system, does not need to be overly loud in order to produce good, full range, tonality!

[@kevin-vt7dw]

I'm new to this audio game I just got a real nice pair of inifinity quantum 2's waiting for the woofers to come back from Watkins audio what do I power it with

[@dannymulligan6446]

I think you are correct I have a 50 watt Marantz slimline receiver. I’m using Definitive Technology Mythos St for my front and rear speakers. I have never had a problem with with volume. It’s always great for me. The sensitivity of my speakers is 93db. My receiver never gets hot. I had a Dennon 125 watt receiver and that thing got so hot you could burn your hand on it. I figure there must have been something wrong with it. I sold it and bought the Marantz. I have had the Marantz for about two years and it never gets hot. It works perfectly. I was afraid when I bought it it would not get loud enough. It’s gets very loud. I have come to the conclusion that for my size room and the fact that my speakers sensitivity is 93db that 50 watts is plenty. I have a Sp meter and some times I use it to check how loud it is. I usually don’t go beyond 90 db but it does 90 db with out breaking a sweat. I don’t want it any louder then that. I think Marantz is a good company and they don’t lie about their specifications. I just subscribed to your channel.

[@preston6945]

I totally agree with you. I have been wondering the same thing. I have a marantz receiver rated at 110w per channel. When i am watching a movie or listening to music I rarely get above 85db in the peaks. Everywhere I see that adding a separate amp gives better sound but an amplifier rated at 300w vs 50w per channel will still give the 5 watts I need to watch movies and music. I don't see how the 5w from the bigger amplifier is any better. Has there been double blind tests on this? That I would be interested to see.

[@arande3]

I regularly clipped 150w x4 and a 2400w sub amplifier into 91dB x4 speakers when I was younger. 125dB on the meter. It was fun but I only did it for one song maybe every few days.

[@scofab]

Amen, amen and amen. If you don't wreck your ears with the 100w/channel amp you won't need the 250w/ch. My Sansui AU-7500 claims 32w per both channels driven with real music, and with 88db/m speakers it's more than plenty loud for me. Like... real loud. Yes some speakers need more... but not as many as you'd think, especially in an 'average' setup.

[@paulvanaudenhove7782]

After a period of buying more powerful amplifiers, I really got lucky and figured out what I really liked. That turned out to be lowered powered class A amps (20-25 watts).

[@andrewp9725]

I agree with you..I’ve used 15 watt transistor ab amps with imf tls-80mkii speakers which are not efficient and sound amazing...I think we appreciate tone more than volume it’s not to say less power is better or worse both can be good but more power is not a guarantee to be “better”

[@richardvannoy7230]

The largest peak usage I’ve seen on my high powered amp is a momentary 50 watt jump. And that is with a digital recording of The 1812 Overture where the cannon was digitized at a somewhat realistic level. The blasts show a jump to about 50 watts. With my old Yamaha M65 there is zero distortion even then. Most Classical music played at “loud” volumes requires no more than about 10 watts per channel.

[@mustardketchup]

Clean power with a short path is all I need. Amp capability is one of the easiest things to figure out in this obsession. It either has it, or it don't.

[@BirdArvid]

I own (but no longer use regularly) a Sugden A21a amp; pure class A, 25w/channel 8Ohms. It sounds fantastic, IF: you listen to the right music, through fairly efficient speakers. I used a pair of B&W CDM1 bookshelf-speakers and on acoustic music, chamber-classical, jazz, etc, it was a magical combo (I know; for the money!). For full-on opera or Deep Purple's Made in Japan (which cannot be listened to quietly!) not so much. I still own that amp and one day I will build a pair of very efficient horns.. There are in my opinion two opposing forces at play here: 1: Power corrupts, and if you don't want your power to corrupt, you have to spend more money than I have, especially if you want current capability, not just show-room watts. 2: speaker efficiency which really can, especially if there are no odd impedance-dips, make a small and relatively "weak" amp sing. And it is true: the first watt is the most important, but if you want real bass output, you do need some power. I have over the years come to completely disregard "HiFi" parameters like soundstage width and depth, space around instruments and because of having been in live music all my working life, I find that for myself, beyond basic tonality and timbral quality, the one parameter which makes me happy is dynamics; Micro and Macro. I want to hear the loudness-modulations of the human voice, the differing dynamics of a drummer's hits, a pianists dynamism, a.s.o. Without that music dies for me. I still can't play Richard Strauss and Mahler as loudly as I want at home, to even remotely emulate my working-conditions, and that's where I personally want to go. And this is where all of my previous systems have failed abysmally. But they imaged well... The only systems I've heard which could do this have had horn-speakers. SO: horses for courses, Mr Guttenberg!

[@deejeemadrox1866]

Steve, you are right. Nice article btw. ;) I like to add to this that 100watt is not the same for every amplifier! Years ago i learned that 30watt "noone ever heard off" amps can outperform 100 or more watts apms from the big names. At that moment i truly was shocked, my big flashy Denon amplifier was totally outperformed by a (to me unknown) 30watt flat, slim english designed amp. Who did not cost about the same. Only reason i did not took it, it lacked in and outputs for other devices... Bu my Canton really shined soundwise, what a volume, what a deep , warm sound came out of this tiny amp. And just as loud! So, there you go. To me, watts tell you nothing!

[@hclandscapes]

I noticed a huge difference when i swapped my Arcam SA20 for a Rotel ra1592 . My b&w 703s2 's sounded really strained at louder volume's on the Arcam.

[@murraysampson2501]

I appreciate your comments on this topic as I sometimes wonder if I would benefit from a more powerful amplifier. As you have demonstrated, a relatively low powered amp into inefficient speakers can still be satisfying. Nice shirt by the way.

[@80redbarron]

New to it all, but I am playing some Tekton DI SE's with a 30 Watt Rotel from the 80's. Works reasonably well except at low volumes. I ordered a new AVR with more power; anxious to see how that does at low volumes.

[@nielsnielsen2670]

Steve, I can see your point, however as I see it some speakers needs powerful amplifiers. I have a pair of Yamaha NS1000m speakers, and they need a well designed amplifier with lots of power, in order to get them sounding good.

[@MrMaxeemum]

I remember a friend of mine had a Fisher tube amp that sounded absolutely amazing and I believe that power output of that amp was about 7W / channel no idea of model no.s or speaker efficiency but I remember the wattage was very low compared to modern amps at the time. Since then I've never considered how many watts an amp has and just listen to it, I want to listen to music not be deafened by it.

[@germadonna]

I have a Fisher SA 100 tube amplifier and I believe it’s like 7 watts

[@c0uchsl0uch]

Have you made any videos where you discuss real useable wattage vs advertised wattage? My sony dh190 claims 100x2 rms, does that really mean 40x2 ?

[@nickparkin8527]

With my friends open baffles he only needs a few watts for his vintage Zenith drivers. He needs a lot of power for his 15” open baffle subs though which he runs through a plate amp

[@michaelbrenden7065]

-- Go in large room otherwise silent. Scream. Then speak. Which can be heard? Both. Which can be understood? Speaking, but also screaming yet in a very different way.

[@ArthurJS123]

So, I think it all depends. My vintage Technics SA-212, with a modest 25 watts per channel, matched up to Yamaha NS-A528’s, practically blows me out of the bedroom. But, it’s a rather small bedroom, maybe 14x12, and well, it’s a bedroom system. Where my Carver M500t, fed by an Onkyo Integra TX-870, at maybe 250 watts per channel, now with Paradigm Titan v3, and Cambridge Soundworks 8” powered sub, loves to be pushed and pushed in the living room. I don’t think one size, and one wattage, fits all applications. Really enjoyed this video.

[@borlach321]

What do you consider low to moderately powered? I used a Creek destiny on a pair of Totem Hawks. Worked great. People were telling me I needed a better amp like Mcintosh or Hegel.

[@noself1028]

According to John Atkinson's measurements of the TAD ME1, the frequency response starts rolling off sharply just above 50 Hz. My understanding is that power is especially important in handling the impactful deep bass that one would expect from a full-range floor-standing speaker. What is your experience when driving such speakers (as opposed to stand-mounted speakers) with low-powered amplifiers?

[@Steve10091960]

I use a Pioneer SX-434 (15 wpc) from 1974 to power my Paradigm Titan v1 (87dB) from the '80's in my garage. That combo plays plenty loud. Neither one is what you would call audiophile quality (nor the Sony CD player I use with them) but they sure rock my garage.

[@TexasScout]

Steve, I used to have a Marantz 1060 integrated amp (30 watts RMS into 8 ohms w/0.1% THD) and a couple of KLH speakers. I used that system to fill our schools auditorium for my daughters dance recital. It was better than the PA system the school had.

[@scottohta2192]

I have been of the opinion that single ended tube amplifiers, very low power, and horn speakers which are very efficient, sound best to for reproducing realistic sound. So I agree with you Steve.

[@Charlie-zj3hw]

I like my neighbors to listen to what i'm jamming to!! 100 watts driving the bookshelves and then 2 powered 1000 Watt subs..I want to capture the live concert in my house..Bob Weir is touring with Don Was and when he plucks those bass strings i want to FEEL it..I picked out my gear specifically for jam band music

[@denniswade6727]

The heart and soul of a hi-fi system is enjoyment. What good is imaging, soundstaging, dynamics, etc., if you don't enjoy the system. Every equipment review should state first and foremost whether the reviewer enjoyed what they were hearing, and whether it enticed them to keep listening. Anything else is just extra.

[@stuartneil8682]

I used to run a basic audio innovations 9wpc Series 300 amp into B&W 110s, never went to full volume in my small apartment. Thing is, it showed what the musicians were actually doing. I tried more powerful, highly regarded solid state amps; they sounded detached from reality and a bit dynamically flat. So, rated at 12wpc , reviewed at 9wpc with the quote “I failed to measure any useful peak current” but sounded great with Zeppelin, Queen, Deep Purple, Copland, Beethoven..., hundreds of records and all bar a couple of 1000 CDs.

[@TheGeneral097]

You right my friend 👍

[@johngordon1175]

Yes you do if you want good depth of field or an amp with a great deal of current capacity regardless of how loud you play it also a 30 watt amp running at 10 - 15 watts with a great power supply will give you the desired depth of field desired

[@Audiojunkabus]

Please explain damping factor, why it is important and how it can impact sound quality. Nobody ever brings it up and it bothers me. thanks

[@Helliconia54]

I agree with you.I still have my original system bought in Australia in the mid 70's A sansui au 317 50 w rms per chanel fed into a pair of Sonab OD11's.(rated at 40 w)You do NOT need A big amp

[@SteveDaviesCPT]

Great shirt. Worth remembering that todays quoted watts are very feeble compared to man sized RMS per channel numbers of back in the day.

[@wallacedavidg]

The advantage of a high power, high quality amp was demonstrated by Bell Labs many decades ago. When less of the total power output is used to attain the desired SPL the amount of distortion from the amplifier also decreased.

[@gustavoadluq]

I agree with you Steve!

[@adissabovic]

Steve, what distance are you listening at? 1'? :)

[@travel5456]

I have a Sony STR-ZA1000ES AV Receiver. Only has a 290W power supply. This is the best sounding AV Receiver I've owned. I've had Yamaha, Pioneer Elite, Harmon Kardon. The Sony ES isn't lacking in power, doesn't have gimmicks, only the essentials. It just works. I use this to power 4 JBL 530's , 1 520C. Use a SVS SB12 NSD sub. Recently added Sony SSCSE height speakers. My AV Receiver has worked flwlessly for 3 years, use every day.

[@robertwoodward9231]

What would you suggest I can do with a cambridge xax35 to get a good hi fidelity sound, sir? Thanks for the info.

[@JesseShotland]

I got myself a Spark and some 90db speakers and it's more than loud enough. I'm at half volume usually

[@eggshellskullrule7971]

I think the best answer to that question: how much power do you need? depends on what target SPL you WANT. For instance, for orchestral music, you want the system to play at least 112 dB continuously (BTW really, I'd need it to play at 126dB if I wanna play Saint- Saens Sym No. 3). To that end, if your speakers is efficiency rated to be 96 dB@1 watt and 1 metre, then for every 3 dB louder sound level starting from the 1st watt, you need 100% more power. So to reach 112 dB, a 96dB spkr will need some power to reach an additional 16 dB. so it takes a jump of just about 3 dB X 5 = 15 dB, so as to reach that peak SPL of 112 dB. You need to use this formula I created to estimate roughly with: 2+4+8+16+32. In this, you see each number to add from the base "2" is a double jump. So there are 5 jumps. Those 5 jumps will each give a 3 dB bump. So 3 dB X 5 jumps = 15 dB. Since the last jump stops at 32, about 30-ish watts will make a 96dB efficient spkr get you about 111 dB (96dB base efficiency + 15 dB jump). And that assumes your speaker will take at least 30 watts rms. 126dB? I hear you ask. Arghhhh.......... NEXT example, my 98 dB efficient Tannoy LZM III Gold 10" minotors are rated at 15 watts rms, it can only make SPL of 98 + 12 dB jump = 110 dB. Still lose to what I need eh? Another example, my LS3/5A 65th Anni is rated at 84 dB/1 watt/1 m. And it takes 60 watts rms. So how loud will it play? That is 84 + 2 + 4 + 8 + 16 + 32 + 64 (watts) . I hv to stop at 64 coz that's how much power that speaker can take in rms. Easy, right? 84 + 18 dB = 102 dB. Huh, that's not even close to 110 dB of my Tannoy. That's been how I estimate my need for amp power since age 13.

[@friedmule5403]

I had in many years a 30W amplifier with some 88dB speakers and it could play loud!! But what I found out was that yes it played loud but in the end, it did not have enough voltage and amperes to grip the speakers. It was as if my amplifier did have to persuade the speakers to play, rather then tell them what to do and and when! :-)

[@roofpizza1250]

With premium upstream gear I'm sure you can wring out a few more db from any amp. Does your preamp qualify?

[@arthurwatts1680]

Thanks for the vid Steve. Many of the fleawatt tube amp manufacturers have made a similar point for decades but there's Watts and there's *real* Watts - hence the name of Nelson Pass' other endeavour, First Watt. One of the things that stunned me about car audio is the fact that they insist on using 4-ohm drivers with amplifiers rated well in excess of what we're used to seeing in home audio, despite having the advantage of cabin effect in a much smaller space than most us have in any given room in our domicile. Dont even get me started on the claimed output for many of their subwoofer amps - I guess that's a whole other world when you have to control a driver that's much larger than anything else in the vehicle. My initial thought was 'OK, these output claims are marketing BS - one channel driven into clipping yada yada' but there's a KZbin channel where he puts all manner of amplifiers (including home amps, but mostly car amplifiers) on a dyno and tests the manufacturers claims. The good ones (shock horror) not only meet the specs, but in many cases stomp all over them. Even in the car stereo world, Sony isn't known for making great amps, but he found this monster: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oJPcgJmsnJl5mKM (Home) audiophiles tend to sneer at *anything* installed in a car, even when it bears badges from companies like Naim, but its not all about sound-offs and frightening the elderly at traffic lights. I admire the fact that these manufacturers can jam so much power into housings that are usually much smaller than your conventional home amplifier, drive 4+ 4-ohm speakers in the less-than-ideal environment of a vehicle's interior and survive some very dodgy installations ;)

[@JohnMorris-ge6hq]

Arthur Watts Sony's only real good and famous audio equipment is in their Pro line: The DASH 3324 - 24 tracks of 16/44.1/48 brought out in 1981. The DASH 3348 - 48 tracks of 16/44.1/48 brought out in the late 80's. The DASH 3348HR - 48 tracks of 24/48 on 2 inch DASH tape running at 45 ips. (later modification for 96khz) came out in the early 90'. Digital Converters of the 80's and early 90's.... AD/DAC 1600 AD/DAC 1610 Every Compact Disk you have that was mastered before 1987 was made on of these. And lot of audiophiles can identify their sound right away. I have friend who came over to listen to a new CD I got off Amazon a while back. I popped it into my Moon CD-1 and he shouted, "I can hear it!....I can hear it....The Sony 1600. Ahhh, listen to those cymbals. They don't sound real...Turn it off! TURN IT OFF!.." Sounded great to me. A CD from 1982. No compression, no eq - fantastic. AD/DAC 1630 - The mastering converter of the late 80's.