YOUNG SOUTH AFRICAN GIRL JAILED, For Importing Drugs into Thailand ,

[@chicopm]

Agree with you, regardless of the country you visit you should obey the laws of that country. In addition to the sentencing, staying in some jails, even for two days, is not a great experience!

[@hermitcell8568]

I bet she wished she never laid eyes on him .I hope she can get a Royal pardon

[@rebjorn79]

It wouldn't be the first time that a young traveler gets completely duped by someone while traveling overseas. The internet is full of those stories. Her not knowing anything about it isn't unplausible. After all, he was successfully hiding it in the first place. He may simply have wanted to avoid getting her in trouble and that's reason enough to keep such a thing hidden from a girl that he likes.

[@UTCM]

Theres no telling anything is possible

[@jimshelley8831]

When I was younger in the 80 as we'd see one young person/couple a month in UK TV having been caught doing this . Maybe people are desperate or naive .

[@thebigpicture-elpanorama]

I really enjoy your interviews. Keep up the good work!

[@UTCM]

@@thebigpicture-elpanorama Thanks Dave !

[@TwinJalanugraha]

if she were in Singapore, no way to get out of the death penalty

[@walkertongdee]

A smarter woman would have immediately called the police when the package arrived and said she received a suspicious package and has further suspicions about her boss

[@UTCM]

I would agree with you .

[@rebjorn79]

Well, panic could set in .. 'what if they know', 'who might be in on it?' etc, but she could definitely have for example contacted the consulate or a lawyer, anyone she could trust and ask around about where to go from here

[@musoal1]

Never visit a country thinking that you can outsmart the police.

[@brooks1958]

Great video as always and great story and you are 100% right about foreigners breaking the law my opinion enjoy Thailand and stay out of trouble

[@Sunyata7755]

I agree with you Bill regarding Thailand being a safe travel destination with the exception of the drivers 😊

[@The_Original_Geoff_B]

Defensive driving is essential in Thailand, especially once you head "up country" into the hills. There's no "wrong side of the road" in some places - just "I'm bigger than you" 😉 Luckily in the 18 years I've been driving there I haven't actually collided with anyone.

[@Anthoneck]

Thanks for sharing your beautiful life! I’ve been watching and enjoying and learning for years. God bless you and yours always!!!

[@zaphoidbeeblebrox1809]

When you are 18 Years Old, Your brain is held together with String.

[@badgerattoadhall]

Which is odd, people younger than that have functioned for thousands of years.

[@markwalker6673]

if it wasnt addressed to her personalty ,she should not of signed for it

[@jamesdefferson]

That's true, but 1 mistake doesnt warrent a life sentance. That being said, she confessed so i don't have much sympathy for drug importers.

[@paulwilson2968]

Hindsight is a great thing

[@ellertorresiii1081]

Absolutely getting good stuff from your channel. I wish I could visit you when I go to Japan

[@jacure123]

she knows what her boyfriend was doing.

[@jimsinthailand]

I bet she'll serve 7-10 years of the 30. Then she'll be deported back to South Africa. Happens fairly often for drug smugglers in Thailand.

[@UTCM]

I suspect it will be less than that .

[@jimsinthailand]

@@UTCM I live in CM and was really interested in her situation. I did quite a bit of research and still can't find what prison she is in or her name anywhere in the Thai prison system. Secrets.

[@UTCM]

I read a few articles that said what prison she was in but I cant remeber which one it was . There are so many

[@rhatid]

I went to court to be a character witness for one of my students who had a postal package delivered to his address for an aquaintance and was arrested. I knew this person and felt that it was so unlike him and went to court and the judge questioned me about my support. We were in a court in London, UK, and he was found not guilty and let go. The case against him was quite flimsy: a neighbour had received the package (not with his name but for his apartment number) when the postman tried to deliver it and when he went to collect the package from the neighbour (the postman had left a card in his letterbox to say that a package for his address was left at a neighbour) he was arrested because, the package had previously been intercepted by the authorities and they requested the cooperation of the neighbour. The not guilty verdict I thought was the correct one. He was so grateful that his university lecturer turned up and the judge kind too. I thought of this because it was a similiar something comes through the post story. Oh! Congratulations! Good video! Thank you!

[@UTCM]

I had one case where a guy from Denmark visiting my city received a letter containing a small amount of drugs . When we delivered it then arrested him . He said he knew nothing about it .And someone was setting him up . Well one word in the address was spelled wrong . So I gave him a pen told him what to write . He wrote it the same way . Lawyer made him plead guilty

[@louisdisbury9759]

At 18 its doubtful she had a work permit at the school and she defnitley did not have one working in the Restuarant its the same old story people come to Thailand far to young like the place and then start working illegally and possibly then one thing leads another the Thai authorities are well aware of this and thats why its difficult for anyone under 50 to get a long stay visa and the reason why 10 years ago there was a majoor shake up over the 30 day visa turnarounds and never forget the Thais need people like this visiting the Kingdom like a hole in the head but the rules are simple if you get caught up with anyone involved in class A drugs youre going to do some very serious prison time if caught,and the Thai cops are very very far from being duped or stupid.

[@UTCM]

She didnt have a work permit , Yes the cops are sharp here its not like people think .

[@jazztheglass6139]

In 1994 I was in kho Phangan - haad rhin for a fortnight. I met 4 different people who smuggled drugs into Thailand. 1 of them I knew previously from London, he moved to Thailand a few years prior and that's how he supported himself. Another was English who lived in Amsterdam who holidayed in Thailand. The price for ecstasy and lsd was 3 times higher than what you could buy it for wholesale in London, 6 or 7 times in Amsterdam That sort of profit means 3 hundred units would support you very well for 9 months, 1 of the 4 ended up arrested lost everything his bar, and liberty got years in a Thai prison. He was from Liverpool

[@UTCM]

That's if you don't get caught . The price you'd pay isn't worth the risk .

[@jazztheglass6139]

@@UTCM 1 got caught. Lost his bar on the beach. The guy from London was on borrowed time, far to paranoid

[@ash31311]

Your correct that you need a bachelor's degree to get a teaching job in Thailand. However this just means that the principal of the school pockets a bit of your salary and "mistakenly" fills it out that you have a degree when they get you the work permit.

[@chloeprice5418]

Or not.

[@janetstotler399]

That is NOT a practice that happens often, or that is acceptable to the school board. Peddle your criticisms somewhere else please!

[@thomasrudy6132]

who would ever think it is a good idea to take drugs, that are largely illegal in your home country, into a foreign country OR sign for a package without knowing the contents?

[@janetstotler399]

She thought she get by with it.

[@ThePonderosa72]

Great video mate the old saying where there's smoke there's fire

[@UTCM]

Your right

[@german411]

Back in 2002 or 2003 ,Premier Taskin had about 2300 drug dealers eliminated which I mean Killed dead,only way to deal with the problem,Prison's were overflowed w/ dealers,no room except getting rid of the problem,same thing happened in the Philippines later on.

[@UTCM]

I remember reading about that drug dealers kept turning up missing

[@doctorcatnip2551]

Importing drugs into Thailand .... 😂 ... you can't make this up

[@markhenry192]

Poor girl, really hope she behaves and gets out soon. Sure she has learnt her lesson ten fold. Thanks.

[@pingpangthepumpkinking1272]

What lesson was she supposed to learn if she had not known any of it? Don’t travel? Don’t meet new people? 😂

[@fazbell]

@@pingpangthepumpkinking1272 Kidnapping of American citizens should earn them an immediate CIA extraction. Bloody affairs that usually end up with any number of "innocent" people being killed. Hands off our citizens guilty or innocent.

[@kayflip2233]

@@pingpangthepumpkinking1272 Don't be naive.

[@janetstotler399]

You do not to have a Bachelors degree in every place in Thailand to teach!

[@eddie45658]

@@pingpangthepumpkinking1272 , not only did she 100% know what was in the pacage, she was directly involved in helping him Import drugs!

[@jeffersonlee-i2z]

These types of stories where young women fall in love with drug smugglers and end up in prison are normal case these days.

[@robertlyall7192]

Thoroughly enjoyed it 1 Excellent !

[@grantyhk1]

Hi WIiliam, Another very interesting story. Have to feel sorry for the girl.Seems she may have got involved in something too deep. Poor girl paying a very heavy price for apparently not asking the obvious questions about her BF and what he was doing to finance the highlife. His statement is extremely interesting. Still not sure how someone with his lengthy criminal background was able to teach so easily and competently at a school in Ko Samui. A lot of questions, starting with who imports MDMA from UK to Thailand ? I thought it was the other way round. Why leave all that money buried in his house when he’s off to medical school in Ukraine,because it was cheaper. I think he’s being economic with the truth in certain areas. If he loved Ashley why doesn’t he offer to turn himself in in Thailand and secure either her immediate release or a shorter sentence ? Has he explored this possibility ? If he is telling the truth about her total lack of knowledge about his drug dealing then that would be the decent thing to do, in my mind. Anyway, good and interesting story, that once again highlights the lack of background screening on those that come to live and work here. I can’t but feel sorry and sad for that poor pretty girl for getting herself involved in this nightmare.

[@UTCM]

Often times people don't comprehend the seriousness of actions . Sad situation I m sure all wish they had done something differently.

[@mrboogang]

Brilliant video again Bill, thank you! Random question, why don't the cars stop when pedestrians need to cross at the pedestrian zebra crossings? Isn't that an international road rule/law? I find that very strange.

[@UTCM]

It's the law here too. Sometimes they do sometimes they don't.

[@UTCM]

It's the law here too. Sometimes they do sometimes they don't.

[@markwalker6673]

because the pedestrian is never right in Thailand, get use to it

[@robertwilliamson6121]

Always be aware…..I almost got killed in Chiang Mai crossing Huaykaew Rd. I had the beeping walk sign in my favour (they make a funny noise) with the traffic stopped for the lights, and I was walking across when a pickup truck just blasted through the red light missing me by mere inches. It left me shaking. Never assume they are going to stop. Always be aware of what is happening in your surroundings.

[@UTCM]

You have to look and not start walking until there at a dead stop

[@jimshelley8831]

Just another young woman ( not girl ) whose life will be wasted for a few years

[@WilliamKlaesson]

Interesting video, i wonder if the people in jail over weed will get out, now when its basically legal.. subscribed! Cheers

[@UTCM]

They did let them out and even returned some of the weed they had taken from what I read

[@martinsaunders7925]

Thailand is certainly safer than the U.S. There are better ways of becoming fluent in the Thai language. Though this may be like a Thai learning English in a Scottish jail.

[@JohnBrown-hl4cy]

It makes no sense to say what country is safer than the other.. Just do your best to stay safe... that's what matters ..

[@kayflip2233]

@@JohnBrown-hl4cy He's just stating the facts.

[@JohnBrown-hl4cy]

@@kayflip2233 I said.. it makes know sense about what country is safer... just focus on yourself. that is what matters.. that's facts... speaking foolishly gets u know where..

[@JamesMackay-u3s]

Of course she knew!!

[@620EDA]

The temples are amazing, especially the last one...just gorgeous!!!!! Khao Soi Khun Yai is our favorite place for Khao Soi in Chiang Mai. You and your wife will love it. Please try it!

[@UTCM]

Yes going to give it a try . They close at 2 pm and se out quick .

[@620EDA]

@@UTCM Yes, try to get there by noon. Enjoy! We'll finally be back in Chiang Mai in early February and can't wait! Thank you again for all your walks and posts!

[@milademjayy]

*Working for Thai ppl, you will lose your sanity*

[@JohnSmith-bz9be]

These young people throwing away the best years of their lives.... First sign of any concerns, you should always steer clear of the bad ones I say. BTW, lovely temple, and I am amazed at how many there are in your city. I guess Bangkok is just full of them. Stay safe and blessed over there. :)

[@robertwilliamson6121]

Chiang Mai has more temples for its size than most cities. And yes, Bangkok has some amazing beautiful temples that you will never forget if you ever see them. I really loved the temple of the “Emerald Buddha” on the royal palace grounds. But there are also many, many more amazing temples also.

[@UTCM]

Bangkok has many as well but not sure if more than Chiangmai . I know we have more coffee shops than in Bangkok

[@JohnSmith-bz9be]

@@robertwilliamson6121 Cheers for explaining that. I look forward to visiting some of them when I eventually visit this fascinating country :)

[@JohnSmith-bz9be]

@@UTCM Chang Mai is now also on my bucket list, along with riding an elephant through a jungle up there hopefully :)

[@robertwilliamson6121]

@@JohnSmith-bz9be Go while you still have your health. I rode an elephant at the Chiang Mai Zoo. It's an amazing zoo, and they have a wonderful sea life aquarium section that you should not miss. Amazing. And when in Chiang Mai... take a songtheaw to Wat Phra That Doi Suthep up on the mountain west of the city. (The people usually just call it Doi Suthep..the name of the mountain) When you get there, you can either walk up the long stairs, or take a motorized tramway to the top. The temple complex up there is amazing with great views of Chiang Mai. They say that if you go to Chiang Mai, but you do not go up to Wat Phra That Doi Suthep....then you've never really been to Chiang Mai. Study proper etiquette and behavior for Therevada Buddhist temples before you go, so you don't unknowingly do something wrong or insulting to Buddhists. I spent four months living there, and two months in Cambodia, and can't wait to get back. 70 years old now and I plan on living my last years in Cambodia with side trips to Thailand and other countries around there . Made wonderful Thai and Khmer friends who are waiting for me to come back. It's good for my health there.

[@hextralianstu128]

Thanks for a great channel, your stories are amazing and such easy listening, glad you can share some of your life's journey with us. There are some crazies out there. Stu. Sakon nahkon.

[@UTCM]

Thank you !

[@Justflyaway7]

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord - Romans 6 v 23

[@jacquiet6040]

The streets are empty. Still next to no tourist. Are half the shops, etc, still closed?

[@trumpwon8064]

I won't go back yet. Use to go twice a year, until the scam-demic.

[@UTCM]

Yes its not come back , maybe 20% now

[@jacquiet6040]

@@UTCM Thx for your prompt reply. Have a good one.🇨🇦

[@ubiquitousdiabolus]

Younger people can really fall for the bandwagon fallacy. "If lots of people are doing it, it must be okay".

[@CA-1954]

Sounds like she did a plea deal with the cops.

[@onelovesmokeshop7834]

Nice video 👍👍👍👍👍 she is 18 and working illegal so SOORY she knows like fast money the boy friend is faster than her so SOORY she stoke , what she did so it’s easy if the family spend money 💰 she will be free The problem About foreigners they think the low is the same with respect one love ❤️ SOORY it’s very nice place I was in Thailand 🇹🇭 3 times not the place I live nice 👍

[@paulwilson2968]

Whether she knew or not doesn't matter as someone else pointed out, just a kid who is very very unlucky or makes a bad mistake, just a kid the stupid things I used to do 😱

[@nicoled5160]

i watched a documentary where this guysays that when in jail you are warned that if you plead innocent you get the death penalty and your only hope is to plea guilty. she might be telling the truth

[@UTCM]

Well you get a reduced sentence if you confess ...

[@faffofaffo1]

Vorrei che in Italia fossero applicate queste leggi, chi traffica in droga sceglie di non considerare importante la vita degli altri, perchè gli altri dovrebbero preoccuparsi della sua?

[@brianwinner2249]

Always be aware of your surroundings.

[@emichin7010]

Khao Soi Khun Yai is arguably the best place for a bowl of khao Soi in Chiang Mai. Get one with beef, one with chicken. Both are excellent. Their longan drink is awesome too. Thank again for another story 🙏

[@UTCM]

I will try it there . Never been .

[@avkeng8769]

You're like ROSCO P COLTRANE 😀 do you make a funny laugh. Nice channel sherrif ⭐

[@spizzenergi2292]

That place sells the best Khao soi in Chiang Mai. It gets really busy though, but we’ll worth a try and cheap.

[@UTCM]

It was busy when I went by ....

[@Jim-gf9tp]

This sounds like an episode of Banged Up Abroad. Maybe she didn’t know because he was saving the money for med school rather than spending it on her. It seems a hell of a risk for an aspiring doctor. If the medical board in the state where he wants to practice gets wind of this, he can kiss his hopes for a license goodbye. And you said he had websites about it?

[@UTCM]

Its sounds pretty crazy Id say his days of medical school were ended with the war over there . Just all so bazar

[@1990-t1j]

I'm not surprised the court didn't believe her. What a stupid mistake she made.

[@UTCM]

Its a hard defense to claim even if it was true .

[@scottexpatinthephilippines7449]

hi unseen in thailand.yeah it is a pitty that beautiful girls get tired up with all the all fluences of the baddest society known to man. Am I sorry for her . It's sad and unfortunately you should watch your step when in love keep you wits about you.and watch who you hang with .its that fact that you do this it's a hard life.she will be out when she turns 53 hard life in jail I'm sorry for her family. 🇵🇭 Scott expat in the Philippines 🇵🇭 🌴🌴🌴🌴🇵🇭🤠🇦🇺🌴🌴🌴🌴

[@davea3329]

Interesting story. Foreigners should know better than to mess with that stuff. The boyfriend is looking pretty bad. Just some feedback, it is a little distracting when you are telling your story and you get distracted by the nice sites. Maybe there is a way for you to separate the stories from the sites? Thanks for the good info.

[@The_Original_Geoff_B]

We like the distractions :)

[@scottbieber1731]

Good morning from Chiang Rai! Question for you! Is the night bazaar back to normal?

[@UTCM]

It's open now but no where near what it once was .

[@jmseipp]

She got off easy! Most aren’t so lucky!

[@UTCM]

Very true

[@thnaykhwam6554]

Love is blind. Many cases of couples condoning their partners illegal activities. Call it utter stupidity but that's d reality in some cases... We view it as toxic relationship but to them is d opposite as they stick to each other

[@danielpearson6306]

I have no tolerance for all drugs even Marijuana. Here in Washington state Marijuana is legal at in your house only but street Marijuana bought on the street is common as is less expensive as no taxes. In a rural community of 12000 there are 8 pot shops. In Oregon 2 years ago they legalized all hard drugs like heron, coke, meth, fentonal your name it for person use with a minor fine. Washington is discussing to do the same. Here the largest issue issue is heron and meth. Heavy crime the last few years because of it. Marijuana users go around with dead eye stars.

[@UTCM]

I wasnt aware they made hard drugs legal or nearly

[@danielpearson6306]

For personal use and not in for sale but with a small fine but no charges. This known as the left coast if standing say on the southern border border but days it also refers to the politics.

[@rashedusman9717]

There would be a couple of aspects to this case and other similar cases: -countries that don't have extradition agreements with Thailand or any other countries should descourage as much as possible their citizens from moving to such countries and offer as much information as possible about the laws and the conditions in those countries; -parents should try as much as possible to stop their children to move into such countries; -people that do decide that it's a good idea should be extra carefull about anyone they come in contact with and especially with their belongings. I think the thai law regarding narcotics is to harsh especially that most people incarcerated only done it to survive or out of stupidity and are not wealthy drug-lords. But it's only an opinion and they can do what they want.

[@UTCM]

Well put !

[@GlobalDrifter1000]

Beautiful Day!

[@kelvingao9471]

For drugs offence you will get royal pardon but just less, she got 33, so she might do 10-12 yrs something like that.

[@UTCM]

Maybe hard to say

[@tinacollins9213]

Love your content interesting

[@JG-bl4qs]

Hahaha for some reason I knew you were a cop by the way you spoke before you even mentioned it a little bit before 10:59 in the video 😅

[@UTCM]

Yes !

[@TWCH]

Good story.

[@thomasmckenney3518]

If you can’t do the time don’t do the crime!!!! Jk don’t break the law it’s that easy.

[@Pfit111]

khao soy khun yai is a famous Khao Soy restaurant...I've seen it in a few KZbin food videos. You should definantly grab lunch there one day. It's meant to be really good!

[@UTCM]

I will !

[@frenchgirl75000]

C'est la base de respecter les lois du pays, faut pas pleurer après, sinon restez chez soi

[@HzSpekülatör]

She is having bad days in the bangkok hilton,pity.

[@UTCM]

no doubt

[@ashjan3317]

so sad

[@sontayatoemsook1266]

not really, probably been up to it for a while

[@geofferyrobertson6608]

Pablo Escobar's wife and family also reckoned he was a really nice bloke and family man 5555 , so one just never knows !!

[@petermason3540]

You do not need a degree to teach in Thailand, only in the top schools and top agencies many smaller school accept many native English teachers, I don`t know why people think this.

[@UTCM]

I think to get a work permit and be legal you do

[@GlobalDrifter1000]

Interview? Confesses? The only one I have heard of who didn’t was the Russian Gun runner extradited to and convicted in the USA

[@UTCM]

yea and looks like he might be traded back soon

[@jai1time2getgoin67]

Nice video

[@thnaykhwam6554]

After few years she will b granted pardon but she had screwed up her life

[@UTCM]

Thats my guess as well

[@JG-bl4qs]

Such an informative video, thank you for sharing I would love to visit, and definitely won’t be touching any drugs… maybe just some pot haha

[@UTCM]

Its a great country to visit !!

[@spellerlittlewing]

First of all people should respect other people countries rules

[@robbieross8591]

Seems ridiculous you should need a bachelors degree to teach kindergarten children. Hardly rocket science teaching four and five year olds! Obvious totally different situation teaching older children.

[@mikeparker6322]

Interesting story. I think using the Coerced Confession or Confession Under Duress is a nonstarter in Thailand. Doubt she will get a Royal Pardon because at this point she has not shown remorse or contrition. Just my perspective based upon my experience in the US Justice System and in my travels in Asia.

[@janetstotler399]

You have got to understand Thailand does NOT put up with bringing drugs into their country. You do it, you pay the price!

[@UTCM]

That's very true

[@janexerikus8021]

What about thai people killing innocent foreigners? shouldnt they be sentenced to death?

[@janetstotler399]

@@janexerikus8021 who did they kill that was innocent?

[@C.H.R.I.S.]

11:46 white car is taking a right turn from the left lane crossing the white line ..... this is thailand 😂😂😂😂

[@berttomson6999]

Wow what a story. My opinion do not trust any expat giving advice. Unless it is something not to do here in Thailand like what you are doing here Bill.

[@philipjanek3864]

Are you allowed to bring prescription valium into the kingdom? It's from the VA 👌

[@UTCM]

To be honest I dont know , but I did find this on the London Thai consulates website . If the prescription medicine not listed as controlled drugs. The medications are likely classified as medication preparations according to the Drug Act B.E. 2510 (1967). A patient under treatment who requires medications in that category is allowed to bring for personal use such medications in a quantity not exceeding 30 days of prescribed usage. The medications must be in their original containers with proper labels, accompanied by a letter or prescription for the doctor. However, such medications fall under the responsibility of the Bureau of Drug Control, Thai FDA. You can consult that office directly by sending an email to the Director of the Bureau of Drug Control: [e-mail] Please also send a cc copy of that email to [e-mail]

[@Jon-qp9ew]

Definitely check with the Thai authorities before you travel. Here in Japan, people have been jailed for bringing in prescription medicine that is illegal in Japan.

[@sontayatoemsook1266]

she was not allowed to work in the restaurant

[@UTCM]

Thats very true

[@ladybug111]

What a beautiful temple. I feel a sense of peace when visiting them.

[@ambrosemolina3457]

Oh well

[@antifugazi]

How do you know she didn't have a bachelor's degree?

[@UTCM]

Because that why they had to let her go . She came here right after getting out of high school

[@antifugazi]

@@UTCM ok I see?

[@robstratton6296]

is "the devil made me do it" a legitimate defense? People often get work using false documents. easy.

[@adhemartucker8171]

He must of had good banana work HAHAHA

[@adhemartucker8171]

HAHAHA....thats funny....by day he's a respected guy......by night he's hot dog party man midnight express cowboy HAHAHA

[@ottisdriftwood78]

Ted Bundy was a nice guy, but I wouldn't be hanging out with him lol

[@hbryant1971]

"BrokeDown Palace"

[@lkm5462]

Love your videos , hate your stories

[@dosverde12]

Where is your wife,you act like a single man.could we please see your wife and maybe where you reside.thank you !

[@UTCM]

Shes in the shorts and also in some of the videos. Also videos of the area I live as well

[@imtmt8]

غثيتنا بالترجمه

[@MCC876]

How do we avoid this situation? Ask that every package be sent to a police station and have them open it there? Is this even possible or allowed?

[@MCC876]

This is a serious question. I hope the tone did come across as rude. It surely wasn’t meant that way. Sorry to see no one has an answer, but I don’t either.

[@UTCM]

My only answer would be dont except anything your not expecting . Or sign for anything for anyone else

[@davidvick749]

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@billyshears6503]

Was her last name Griner

[@UTCM]

I don't think so

[@UTCM]

But same same