Z-Tuff and CD#1 - The Toughest Knife Steels?

[@RainyDayForge]

When I first started watching your videos, I felt like I could understand 10% of what was going on. But, now, I'm a solid 12%. (JK, I understand a lot of it now.) The more I watch and read, the more I understand. Thank you for having written and video content. Thanks Dr.Larrin!

[@eddielittleii8919]

I'm inching forward in knowledge. Thank you for taking the time.

[@GibsonCutlery]

Fascinating info. That toughness curve is really interesting.

[@damascusthefox]

That was very interesting. Do more videos like this, where you talk about one steel and what it has to offer, I really enjoyed this video. Keep up the good work! ^w^

[@Si-Al-Ti]

There’s only audio in the left channel here on my end. Gonna check this one out later when I don’t have to listen through headphones.

[@simenstryckers8623]

Same here, no audio on the right side.

[@blacklion79]

Same here, very disconcerting

[@diekritischestimme]

Hello Larrin, I just found your channel today and I am so happy to finally find a youtuber with some REAL expertise on steel. I am a learned material tester (specialized on steel) myself and I get tired of all the subjective "this is the best knife steel" videos with subjective testing methods. I cannot understand how people can draw conclusions about a certain type of steel just from owning one or more knives and then judging the steel's performance without considering if the knife was getting a proper heat treatment etc. Now, while your channel is mostly on the theoretical, scientific side of the field I would like to know what you think about the KZbinr Joe X who is testing knives until they break and I love how he is abusing the knives to really show people what a knive can take. Now my question: Would you mind checking out his channel and check if his results fit yours? I think this could be a genius combination of scientific knowledge and practical knowledge. Would love to see a reaction video or if you can verify Joe's results - I think this could be interesting to all of us!

[@blueswan2175]

Love the info,steel history is so fascinating- love that Gerber was using Cruwear 50 years ago....I imagine the heat treat may have been beyond the ability of the user to easily sharpen in those days,I have a few old school Gerber blades that are in m2 and they take a nice edge and seem to hold it...thanks for all your hard work and all the folks that collaborate with you to bring the knife community such useful info. 👍👍

[@lindboknifeandtool]

Love those old chrome m2 knives, always on the lookout for them.

[@SuperSteelSteve]

I'm curious as to what you mean by " the heat treat may have been beyond the ability of the user to sharpen "?

[@lindboknifeandtool]

@@SuperSteelSteve maybe lack of diamond abrasives + high hardness id assume

[@SuperSteelSteve]

@Lindbo Knife & Tool That's a big assumption on his part. Do we know what hardness they were running it at? And cruwear is relatively low abrasion resistance, it sharpens very easily on regular ALOX stones you know?. If I had to guess they stopped using it because of cost of manufacturing vs selling cost.

[@lindboknifeandtool]

@@SuperSteelSteve cruwear has relatively low abrasion resistance, relative to steels like s30v, but not relative to common steels of the day. Especially since it was the old non CPM stuff. I’d 100% say it wasn’t easy to sharpen back then. Maybe I’m a shitty sharpener because id classify 62+hrc cruwear as hard to sharpen on alumina, but I just don’t see the point in even doing so. It’s masochistic😂 The gerber m2 knives are run at 62-65, and have a very close composition to cruwear. I know the opinion is that no steel is hard to sharpen, but when I put myself 50 years in the past, I’d hate sharpening those steels on alumina. It would be a diminishing return of performance. I’ve sharpened k390 on alumina, and it took an eternity. My $0.01 adjusted for inflation

[@CandidZulu]

Fantastic channel! And I will get that book ASAP!

[@Hungrybird474]

Magnacuuuuuut 😊. Good job dude 👏👏👊. This metallurgy is seriously interesting . You know it’s bad when a person buys a specific knife for the blade steel alone . It’s just nice to have . I hope to check out soon .

[@glockgaston2922]

Good video and information thanks for sharing

[@OUTDOORS55]

Would you use the higher recommended temper 990-1000 degrees if you weren't doing cryo?

[@cubee2006]

I might. Would be better to actually test it.

[@krissteel4074]

Z-Tuff is one of those steels I'm interested in using, the price is a bit savage though which has turned me off the idea. The Zapp Z-Wear though is something I might dabble in one day Tough knife steels definately have their place though and I've always been very happy with A8-Mod for a good mix of ease of heat treat, toughness and affordability. It also finishes nicely and seems to have enough stain resistance to shrug off a mild amount of humidity.

[@bmxriderforlife1234]

Try 8670 or 5160 for choppers. It's cheap and comes in decent enough sizes as well. Edge retention and hardness will go down. But for choppers should work.

[@acid6urns]

z wear is quite literally just cruwear made by a different company, for the record

[@brysonalden5414]

Thanks for sharing this research. You always give me things to think about, which is good!

[@tacticalcenter8658]

Find someone or a company with an xrf gun. It can scan the composition of it with xrays

[@brandensutton2324]

This was a good one

[@RadDadisRad]

Love the information

[@bahur47]

Awesome video as always

[@Freakmaster480]

Interesting steel

[@stormiewutzke4190]

I don't find toughness to be something I chase that hard with the way I use knives but it does sound like an interesting steel for some things especially if I ever get a chance to start doing swords. I really got onto researching bronzes this winter. I love the different colors one can get off of them as well as the range of properties. With Coppermascus becoming popular I imagine it is a matter of time till people start using bronzes. Is there any chance you might give some advice for best practices when mixing alloys? Are there any bronzes ir other colored metals that might have any use for at least specialty blades of some type. From what I could find there isn't any that would be acceptable by modern standards but it doesn't hurt to ask. It makes amazing looking hardware though. I don't know if you would have any advice about making them. I found it difficult to find quality information about making bronzes especially in a home setup using my heat treating oven.

[@cameronchicken8439]

so leaf springs are made out of 9260 and i’ve been seeing a lot of swords out of china made with 9260 and they are apparently really tough but i’ve never seen it make anyone’s list and it is actually an interesting manganese steel that i would like to know more about. it’s not on any american knives but you could have it water jet cut into knives and have the blanks shipped from china fairly cheap so i’m wondering how good of an option it is???

[@Matthew_Jensen]

Thank you for making this. Out of curiosity, do you know how I would go about testing if a sword is made of the steel advertised?

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

Some places have XRF guns that can measure elements other than carbon

[@here_be_dragons9184]

Used to work in place where they had laser-induced breakdown spectroscopy machine (LIBS). They used it to analyze steel samples from century old bridges. They are very expensive to buy but cheap to operate. Not sure how good they'd be to study knife steel or what's the market price for a measurement.

[@Odessanightshift]

Is there a way we could vote on featured steels in these videos? I'm eager to see AEB-L get the deluxe treatment you gave 80CrV2 and the above steels. I'd also enjoy voting on different subject steels as new videos come out. I'm a boring guy and that's my idea of fun. Now I'm off to organize my sock drawer...

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

knifesteelnerds.com/2019/03/04/all-about-aeb-l/

[@GODWITHUS0712]

Everything is fine and dandy with z tuff until 8670 comes in.

[@adamgal2265]

what do you think about k390 ?

[@saintofchelseathomascarlyl5713]

does ztuff have more toughness than 80crv2? how does z-tuff compare with 1095 or 80crv2?

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

Yes, Z-Tuff has higher toughness than 80CrV2 and 1095

[@Mastonc]

What about UHC steel?

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

What about it?

[@WinnipegKnightlyArts]

I love your videos, and your research, I do not love when the video is uploaded in mono.

[@jusme8060]

When can I get some apex ultra? How will that compare?

[@jusme8060]

Finally got some, make sure you have a power hammer, boys. Toughest steel I've had to move under the hammer.

[@lililililililili8667]

Would this steel have a higher yield strength than 301 high yield?

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

Just about any knife steel can have higher yield strength than 301. Yield strength correlates with hardness. 301 in its “high yield” state is in the low to mid 50s Rc.

[@beardedarchery3576]

How does 5160 compare to 3V if both are optimized. Making tuff durable outdoor/hunting knifes. Not looking at stainless steels due to fire making

[@beardedarchery3576]

And 5160 is more cost effective

[@mikafoxx2717]

5160 is like double the toughness, but less hard and less abrasion resistance. 3V isn't a super tough steel, just a relatively tough one. 1V is the tough CPM steel.

[@Daniel66776]

why did you record this in mono?

[@sjurerikhystad4356]

hi, I'm looking for a knife steel that is razor sharp but can withstand cuts into bones, but I want to be able to sharpen the knife in the field, do you have any suggestions? love norway

[@mikafoxx2717]

Just get a good steel. Any knife can get razor sharp with skill, even the worst cheap kitchen knives. And a butter knife can hammer through a nail with the right geometry. Get some 14c28n though, for what you want. It can be hard to not bend, tough to not break, stainless, and easy to sharpen.

[@thetschoni3813]

Where can i get this steel in smaller quantitys?

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

Alpha Knife Supply has a few sizes of Z-Tuff and Niagara Specialty Metals has CD#1. Both have online stores.

[@thetschoni3813]

@@KnifeSteelNerds is there also an European reseller?

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

@@thetschoni3813 GFS supply in Britain

[@thetschoni3813]

@@KnifeSteelNerds Is there also a source for thicker stock like 1/4” (width minimum :4“ leanth: around minimum 18“ (Doesn’t need to be in Europ). I can find only thin stock.

[@glodandorin7807]

CPM 1V ???

[@SuperSteelSteve]

During the corrosion resistance test.. Is the 6150 coupon actually 5160.. or a different steel I've just never heard of?

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

6150 is a real steel

[@SuperSteelSteve]

@@KnifeSteelNerds 👍👊 thank you. Wasn't sure if that knife maker shared my dyslexia or I was just ignorant. The latter it is.

[@bmxriderforlife1234]

I kinda wanna experiment with z tuff for a sword. I'm not sure if it'd be as tough as certain other simple steels with a properly optimized heat treatment but the edge retention is better then most sword steels. 8670 or L6 bainite are pretty tough in the hardness levels swords often see. And while longer to heat treat the warping is reduced and at 53 to 55 hrc it should be not too bad speed wise at least in certain steels.

[@bmxriderforlife1234]

8670 has surprisingly decent rust results from that photo. Did better then I'd have thought given it's fairly similar to L6 which is known to be sensitive to rusting with swords.

[@movelikebass]

millerbros blades have used z-tuff in their knives & swords (or sword-like knives) & apparently it was as good as one might expect. but they don't seem to be forging anymore.

[@bmxriderforlife1234]

@movelikebass interesting. Might be due to covid or some other factors. I was specifically thinking of using it for certain types of swords that are fairly prone to damage and rust is a very easy way to damage one beyond usage. But you also want a good sharp edge. Seems like it'd be a good choice.

[@mikafoxx2717]

Ever look into S7? It's the toughest one out there, so you could make it pretty hard for a sword. ​@@bmxriderforlife1234

[@stanislavstrecker7476]

SO i can make a sword of it, got it!

[@chrisjohnson9542]

Sorry I have to disagree. It was actually Chrono Cross CD#1

[@tijlaerts]

man my right ear is feeling lonely :)

[@here_be_dragons9184]

What about S7 or even better S5?

[@ArthurHerbst]

There are Hardness Toughness Curves comparing S7, S5, 3V and 1V in the KSN Article "Silicon Additions for Improving Steel Toughness". But in short: looks like S5 would be at arround 70ft-lbs at 59HRC, but greatly falling off at greater hardness.

[@here_be_dragons9184]

@@ArthurHerbst not sure if it's a C-notch vs V-notch thing in the article you cited S5 at 59 is a whooping 140ft-lbs and even if it comes crashing after that 60HRC is still 80ft-lbs although it would be easy to miss the mark here. I mean I'd prefer 60+ but 59 is acceptable, even 58 is/used to be the industry's norm.

[@ArthurHerbst]

@@here_be_dragons9184 Dont know if it was notched sharpi test or not (or what form the notch was). Even changing cupon dimensions alters the ft-lbs values afaik. But the relations should be applicable i thought. But i agree with you. S5 seems to be an absolute toughness powerhouse! Question is, how much toughness is enough. There comes the point where you couldnt break the knife even if you tried. But i'd really like to get my hand on some S5 anyways. :)

[@francesmendenhall189]

very expensive and presumably hard to forge-but great stuff otherwise.

[@richardhenry1969]

What I get from this. Nothing is new. Everything has been around for 20+ years. Then manufacturers pretend they are using something new. If that doesn’t work they just make up a new name. So basically marketing is more important then RND

[@BennyCFD]

And what does all of this stuff mean other than a talking point to make a KZbin video with. How does this relate to 99.9% of your average daily knife user.

[@highplains7777]

He does these for knife makers who want to learn about metallurgy and make a better product.

[@verdigrissirgidrev4152]

50NiCr13

[@lindboknifeandtool]

We call that L6