Zelda Has Changed

[@vianabdullah2837]

It's funny how you say that since I've heard a lot of people say that Echoes of Wisdom feels more like the old Zelda games since you still slowly gain abilities by acquiring each echo and the dungeon design is much more conventional.

[@OuroborosTalks]

I really do like the dungeons in EOW. I think they strike a better balance between old and new than TOTK did.

[@michaellane5381]

It's really both, that I got lucky early with the crow and could blitz most encounters while gaining more cash than I knew what to do with by mid-game was still a product of RNG finding that one echo rather than having it given in tutorial made my playthrough feel more unique, I basically coasted through just using 5 echoes after I figured out how to use them and figure at least 5 others can be abused that kind of way for most of the campaign... I have to say though I don't think any combo is as broken as the one I found for the final boss to the point I think Nintendo would need to nerf the strategy were I to disclose it. This said I COMPLETELY missed clockworks before I could try using them... I couldn't for the life of me figure out how to give the item and kept thinking he was describing rare echoes, legit a third of the combat systems available were left out of a playthrough and I never felt the loss.

[@Sam_T2000]

I dunno, man… I might go so far as to say that _”nu-Zelda”_ doesn’t even have many puzzles… they just mostly eschewed them entirely for obstacles, rather than puzzles or locks, as the old games had. the Divine Beasts were still semi-puzzle-y, while the Shrines were obstacles courses or just straight-up combat challenges, but _TOTK’s_ Temples moved further towards the Shrines, than back towards the classic puzzle-box dungeons 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@dandelves]

I found Breath of the Shrines and Tears of the Shrines far too long and repetitive.

[@JM-pm1yb]

TOTK was one of my least favorite gaming experiences in the last three years

[@chooongusbug724]

@@dandelves beats game like handholding of time or SpoilingPuzzles Sword 🥰

[@azfaarrealm9426]

I would say the new zelda formula is more like a choose-your-own-adventure book. It's incredibly fun, but it doesn't leave you as satisfied when you get an ending compared to an actual novel.

[@Nebyulosity]

I'm not sure I even agree with this analogy (Maybe EoW, but I don't know... haven't played it). The Wild Era games' stories feel way too disorganized and shallow for a choose your own adventure book. They're more like a choose your own adventure book where 90% of the book is pointless, repetitive filler about the protagonist faffing about in the world without any sense of stakes or consequence. This filler has no sensible structure, is completely irrelevant to any overarching plot of the book, and the reader is almost always instructed to "just go to whatever page you feel like" and only rarely are they given a specific page number that actually progresses the plot in any sensible sequence of events.

[@paulbyrne-groves3572]

Not sure I can agree on this, breath of the wild was good at the the time, but I was sick of it when I’d finished, I didn’t even bother to finish tears of the kingdom, and these are the only two Zelda games that I think I’ll probably never finish a second time and if there’s a third one in this style, I doubt I’d ever get around to playing it. I’ve played since the 1st Zelda and even had the cdi and lcd games when I was a kid, but I think a third open world would be the end for me Not criticising the games in any way, I personally just found them more tiring than fun

[@ISV_Damocles]

I have a very similar experience (played since Zelda 1) and opposite conclusion. The single-path puzzles of the old Zelda style *only* worked in 2D. When in 2D you can see just about everything that can be part of the solution, giving you a better overview of the possible inputs to the puzzles, and the literal state-space of the puzzles is simpler because it's a 2D plane instead of a 3D world. Having only one way forward is still feasible when the number of possibilities to consider are manageable. But 3D Zelda was basically "broken" for me -- too many places to look for the MacGuffin, too little of a room that I can view and consider at once, and what this video is pointing towards: places where the intuitive 3D physicality of the world are broken because the game mechanics did not consider it. I reached the Water Temple in Ocarina of Time, and that's where I put down the game to never return to it. Why? I got stuck being able to move forward. At one point near the entrance you need to use your bow to hit a target near the ceiling that's not immediately visible in order to move forward. I eventually found that target and hit it and -- nothing. The target didn't react, so I kept looking for the way forward. Why didn't it react? Because I shot it with the bow but I didn't Z target it, so the game didn't trigger anything when I shot it. That's not a problem when shooting enemies, why should it matter if I Z-Target it or not? A game where I not only have to guess what the developers want, but guess the exact button presses to get what they want, is not a game I want to play. Breath of the Wild finally found a solution to this fundamental issue with 3D Zelda. It's not perfect, but you can see how they *are* figuring out how to get the best of both worlds. First, Tears of the Kingdom had much more guidance for the player, and now Echoes of Wisdom is figuring out how to gate abilities to provide a more linear story but not gating puzzle solutions to specific abilities, allowing for a linear progression of the play area and an increase in the arsenal of potential puzzle types but not in a way that's frustrating.

[@OuroborosTalks]

Maybe you just tried to play them for too long or finished them too quickly? I finished those games when I felt ready to take on Ganon. It kinda goes in line with the philosophy of those games-create your own adventure.

[@paulbyrne-groves3572]

​@@ISV_Damocles i havent played echoes so i cant really comment on that and i dont really have any detailed reasons for why i never took to breath or tears, just simply got bored while playing them. thats a first for me with a zelda game, im probably in the minority, but thats fine lol

[@paulbyrne-groves3572]

@@OuroborosTalks yes, absolutely, i played them for too long, its very possible i ruined them for myself, but i think its too late for me now, the damage has been done lol

[@thelastwindwaker7948]

Echoes of Wisdom leaned a little more in the direction of a structured progression, and I was glad to have dungeons without terminals back, but I still found them to be a little too simple. A lot of them were done in about twelve minutes. I miss getting lost in a dungeon and having to figure out how to progress. Now it just seems like you always have the answer to every problem as soon as you walk in, and the puzzles are so flexible that one solution is going to seem obvious to the average player, whether it's having a rocket on your shield or stacking beds constantly.

[@Jarliks2012]

So, I'm not a BoTW or TotK hater or anything like that. They are radically different, and at a certain point comparing games so different starts to break down and not really mean anything. However, I think you didn't do old zelda games justice in your discussion here. the pre BoTW 3d zelda games have some of the best puzzlebox dungeons in all of gaming and you simply don't see that with this new formula. The new games have their merits, so I wouldn't call it strictly better, but its just a fact of the matter that BoTW and TotK don't have anything on par with the ancient cistern, stone tower, tower of the gods. Man I could just keep going, there are so many great dungeons. Perhaps this is a matter of taste or not, but when TotK gives me ascent and lets me climb in order to not engage with any of the puzzles (This was particularly bad in the fire temple) I really don't feel accomplished or like I've won. I think it cheapens the experience. I've recently been playing through all of the 3d zelda games with my girlfriend since she's new to the series and I just don't think BoTW and TotK deliver when it comes to dungeons after replaying some of those old gems.

[@OuroborosTalks]

Oh I agree that there are some fantastic puzzle box dungeons in past games. I adore Sky Keep, but I was mostly referring to smaller scale, individual puzzles with this video. Maybe I didn't quite articulate that well enough. I prefer the old dungeon design, but for individual puzzles, I much prefer the new style.

[@Snozzer]

I have to immediately say that I appreciate to an unnecessary degree that you’re one of those creators that puts song titles on screen when they start.

[@spudmaphot]

I would argue the contrary, the openness of the world that allows you to tackle it in any order made the games worse, especially Tears of the Kingdom. It means that almost every Shrine and dungeon might be the first task the player encounters meaning they can't make anything too challenging or risk alienating the player. They also tried to implement new elements in almost every situation. This made every single shrine and dungeon in Tears completely basic with braindead solutions that never bothered to push it's mechanics further. This made the game unsatisfying to play. The only difficulty in the game came from combat with overworld bosses, and I don't play Zelda games for its combat. I haven't played Echoes but a friend told me the first dungeon he chose gave him a cloud echo and he basically solve the whole game with it. I'm sorry but I want challenging hard to solve trials from Zelda, not "puzzles" that are solved with the most simple solution every single time.

[@OuroborosTalks]

I found that every shrine being different gave them good diversity. You almost never knew exactly what you were getting into and that surprise was interesting to me. I'd love for more compounding puzzles like a traditional dungeon, but that is more of a critique of how new Zelda handles its macro puzzles instead of its micro puzzles.

[@chooongusbug724]

"I'm sorry but I want challenging hard puzzles" tell me, how is slowly pushing a block, shooting an eye switch, playing an Ocarina on a Triforce pedestal, kill X amount of enemies in the room, etc. hard? That's a lot of what old puzzles in Zelda were regardless if you wanna acknowledge it or not. BotW and especially TotK have some very creative physics based puzzles that when you don't cheese them? They're pretty interesting and surprisingly harder than the puzzles in the past game that require the player to slowly push a block or shoot an eye switch. Too each their own but if you choose to rocket shield over everything or Revali's Gale over everything...that's on you, that's not the game's fault 🤷‍♀️

[@spudmaphot]

@@chooongusbug724 I see you watched egoraptor's video on OoT and based your argument on his cherry picked instances if the first 2 dungeons designed to ease players into 3D Zelda. I'm talking about The Water, Shadow, and Spirit Temples, The Great Bay Temple, the absolutely brilliant Stone Temple. Not to mention some of the 2D game's temples like the Ice Palace in Link to the Past. I want more of those. I want stuff that make's me stuck trying to figure out, instead of having the solution dropped on the floor in front of my feet asking me to play lego in an obvious way. I want feeing of clearing a grueling gauntlet and the relief of getting out victorious. I just wish they wouldn't ignore the fans who find the new games disappointing. But sales speak louder than criticism and Zelda might just not be for me anymore I guess.

[@chooongusbug724]

@spudmaphot "I see you watched egoraptor's video on OoT" my guy, I could say the same about you and Skitty's video on TotK if you wanna be reductive. But I can see you don't have an actual opinion on this and just wanna be reductive. Have a great day Edit: "grueling gauntlet" that's never been Zelda, but what you want is Dark Souls so go play Dark Souls I suppose

[@spudmaphot]

@chooongusbug724 I don't even know who Skitty is but I'll look into it. And yes, Zelda had grueling gauntlets before Wind Waker. The NES game are absolutely sadistic and some of the SNES and N64 Dungeons were quite challenging. Majora's Mask was not an easy game.

[@MG-mh8xp]

the only problem is that the new puzzle design is so simple and easy it doesn't feel rewarding. I barely feel like completing a lot of the puzzles in the new games because it's like.. why? even if you're not talking about the huge interconnected dungeon puzzles, and you're instead talking about the individual small puzzles, it's like, even then they're worse than the older games. the new puzzles and challenges aren't nearly as engaging or interesting. they're often generic, or feel rushed or copy pasted. meanwhile the oldergames felt like handcrafted experiences! and it's not like exploration was non-existent in the older games. the entire game was about exploring what you had access to. botw/totk are definitely completely open, and make the older games feel closed in comparison, but even before those two games, zelda was literally one of the best open world action games in the gaming industry. if you wanted to fight fantastical monsters in dungeons, and explore an enchanting world, it's zelda. but the newest games are lacking the challenging design of old, and it just feels empty, even if the charm is still there.

[@therealgaberton1683]

I like both formulas but i dont think it was done well until EOW. Botw and totk were loads of fun but dungeons were beyond disappointing and the game felt too easy to cheese. Where as with EOW(yes theres crazy glitches) but as a casual player, you dont feel like you can cheat through everything but still solve things in many ways

[@JulsLiff]

I am a fan of the new direction as well! I am a rebel and I hate boundaries in games. In the other Zelda games I found myself wanting to explore the places that it won’t let you go to and it was frustrating. I LOVED how in Breath of the Wild you can pretty much go everywhere! It was so fun to explore that world and discover all the beauty and also silliness of it all. The world felt more alive. I love doing things my way and seeing what I can get away with. The only thing I missed were the dungeons. The previous games did have better dungeon designs.

[@chooongusbug724]

TBH? I felt BotW was really empty and barren...It didn't really feel alive for me but I wanted to see what another Zelda game could do with the set up started in BotW...There's a lot of potential that BotW didn't live up to for me Fast forward to Tears of the Kingdom? I'm sold on open air Zelda lol. That was too good and I had a blast every second of it. I'm not a huge fan of EoW but like BotW? There's potential and I wanna see what another 2d Zelda game could do with the more open style of gameplay

[@americasteam2112]

It takes away the challenge from the game in my opinion.

[@chooongusbug724]

@americasteam2112 boundaries don't equate to challenge, the older Zelda games being so easy prove that

[@americasteam2112]

@ crazy that Nintendo made BOTW way easier than the older games. Hope TOTK is harder.

[@chooongusbug724]

@@americasteam2112 BotW was harder than TP, OoT, WW and SS...So was TotK but it's Zelda, none of it is hard. It's a game made for kids lol

[@zakzerak7191]

i love totk and botw alot there are no open world games where i put more time in the world. it just has so high peaks but also the lowest lows. like damn they need to find a way to make the story as involving as it was before botw without using the memory system. the npcs and their dialogue/interactions are so horrible and broken at times. totk sometimes feels like a low budget game and sometimes like the best thing ever

[@coolguychecker7329]

I also prefer the new direction overall and I hope Tears of the Kingdom and Echoes of Wisdom, which borrow heavily from traditional Zelda, are just mere bumps in the road to more radical changes moving forward. I think these games are dragged down by their invocation of classic linear design, I really only felt that A Link Between Worlds and Breath of the Wild had the level design to match their open-ended mechanics. I'm also not sure I agree with your framing about how old Zelda worked. It's true that areas of the overworld were locked by items since the very first Zelda, but dungeons weren't consistently designed that way until Link's Awakening. The only other games that had that dungeon design were Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, the Oracle games, Minish Cap, and Skyward Sword. Starting with Wind Waker, you wouldn't have paths locked by the item until right before you get the item, with some exceptions like the Wind Temple, and the Forest and Lakebed Temples in Twilight Princess. The most egregious examples are the DS Zeldas, which don't give you an opportunity to use the dungeon item until after you obtain it, there's almost no backtracking in those games. I think this is important to note because Echoes of Wisdom is kind of a weird mish-mash of pre-Ocarina of Time dungeon design and DS Zelda dungeon design. All but 2 of its dungeons are really linear, like late "classic" Zelda games, but they really emphasize having lots of options to clear them, like pre-Ocarina of Time games. My issue is that pre-Ocarina of Time games instead offered choice in the level design, there were many paths you could take (and many more that didn't solve the dungeon) and you had to figure out where to go. Echoes of Wisdom instead offers choices from a menu and there's never any doubt where you should go. Most rooms have only two exits and the ones with three, the third just leads to a dead end. Since you always know where to go, you can just kind of spam your inventory until something gets you to the other door. You never have to understand its challenges and, as a result, I don't really remember many puzzles in the game. Tears of the Kingdom's dungeons are similarly, though far less, undermined in this way. Because they're completely open, you don't have the surefire direction telling you exactly which part of the level design you have to contend with, so having more options makes more sense since you really do have to forge your own path. I think the Zelda series is onto something but I want to see more of what they did in A Link Between Worlds and Breath of the Wild. They "broke conventions" but the more important thing was that changed traditional progression and level design to fit the mechanics of those games. Tears of the Kingdom and Echoes of Wisdom do break the conventions of "classic" Zelda, but they don't break the conventions set by Breath of the Wild despite having radically different mechanics and ways of engaging with the world. I want to see the level design and progression system in future Zeldas match their mechanics, I don't want to see an open world just because it worked really well one time.

[@pedrobeckup456]

0:24 Weight of Life.... I havent even played the game but I love this song (and many others from xc3)

[@Nelward64]

As a life long Zelda player I agree. New Zelda is the best Zelda.

[@pedrobeckup456]

I felt like Botw has better gameplay than Twilight (which is my favorite classic Zelda) though worse story. Echoes of Wisdom, while is amazing, I still think it doesn't have the Minish Cap magical feeling

[@OuroborosTalks]

I think TP has the best combat towards the end of the game with the Hidden Skills. They all were pretty useful and fit very specific roles

[@Nelward64]

@@pedrobeckup456 haha I don't understand why people like minish cap so much. To me it just lacks a certain sauce.

[@CyberHardcore-z7g]

@@pedrobeckup456I felt like TP was more cinematic and story focused but the story was kind of a jumbled mess (so was TOTK tbh) but BOTW felt more coherent and focused as a story and utilised show-don’t-tell a lot more

[@hihowareyou232]

​@@CyberHardcore-z7gBotW didn't have a good story, it was told to you within the first hour and the rest was Zelda whining about Link or the champions saying the same things over and over again. I know that's an issue with TotK's sages but I feel the story told in the past of TotK was much better and I enjoyed the regional phenomena stuff more than the quests to get to the Divine Beasts. Rito was literally just a shooting arrow mini game, Goron was a very annoying escort mission, Zora's Lynel could be skipped if you had electric arrows on you, and I didn't personally enjoy the Yiga (specifically Kohga) until Tears of the Kingdom

[@Cody-5501]

Good video. I would like a little more Zelda in my Zelda.

[@Lovemamga]

Great vid man

[@geschnitztekiste4111]

Idk, you just do the same shit over and over in these new games. EoW had more visual variety but the need for openness still made the dungeons feel kinda underwhelming. They have to design them with everything in mind, and so they all feel the same, the same three solutions always work. But at least every place and dungeon features unique characters, enemies and assets, unlike how it is in the other switch games

[@alariaaurora8456]

Nope it ain't better It's better for new generation of gamers though Easier puzzles, dumb combat system that can be easily exploited, simple boring dungeons that need no memorizations at all, low enemy variety (except for echoes of wisdom but you don't fight in that game your creatures do the job for you so the good enemy variety in that game doesn't matter) It's a perfect formula for those who don't want to pay attention at anything and just spend some hours wandering around

[@Bgrosz1]

I enjoyed Echoes, but it is a very forgettable game. Link to the Past and Link Between Worlds are still the two best top down 2D Zelda games. I hope we get one like either of those on the Switch 2. Heck, I would be thrilled if they just did a remake packing both of those games in Switch 2 graphics and sound. Still, a new adventure would be even better. I like a lot about the open world Zelda with BotW. I think the open world concept will remain but there is a lot to refine there as well. I expect that the next major Zelda game will have many very large changes to how open world Zelda plays. I hope it does, because I was bored with TotK about 1/4th of the way through due to it being too much like BotW, carrying over all of the former's annoying aspects. BotW was a major step in the right direction, but another major step is needed.

[@JM-pm1yb]

TOTK was bad

[@painuchiha2694]

Most other videos would say Zelda has changed for the worst 😂 But I love both old and new Zelda alike, the dungeons are weak in botw/totk but everything else makes up for it and EoW seems to show Zelda team can still improve dungeons. I have no beef with traditional or modern Zelda so the constant complaining is somewhat annoying lol I’m forever excited for the future of this series

[@OuroborosTalks]

I think there's merits to both styles of Zelda, and I enjoy each of them for what they have to offer.

[@CyberHardcore-z7g]

People were begging Zelda to change in THIS direction for years but now when we have it… people want the old style back. It’s a classic case of having such a diverse player base that it would be impossible to satisfy everyone

[@joemps]

All it now needs is the complexity of the old dungeons but the openness of the overworld in botw and totk. Theres so much potential here. Other than that the wilds era of the games remain to be my favourites

[@OuroborosTalks]

Yeah, I strongly prefer traditional dungeons

[@therealgaberton1683]

Thats basically what EoW is

[@JM-pm1yb]

Echos and BOTW are great…….that is all

[@hihowareyou232]

Tears is better than both, EoW is the lowest rated mainline Zelda for a reason. I like TotK and felt BotW had potential (just a bit too empty and didn't have a lot to do in the world) but Echoes of Middom? I personally never wanna play that goofy game again lol

[@Bojangles657]

​@@hihowareyou232real, botw kinda feel like a beta with totk being a thing

[@septua]

bruh

[@darkIkarus]

EoW is kind of a Zelda game? Well, it's as Zelda as it gets!

[@FTSFBS]

❤

[@IForgetYourName]

Hard disagree. I would rank botw and totk the lowest zelda games. The complete betrayal of the series' design principles, the absolute lack of any coherent story, and the utterly infantile puzzles are a significant downgrade to all zelda games that came before.

[@Bojangles657]

cringe

[@scratch2086]

I’m really tired of everyone pretending like BotW and BotW2 were some work of art. They were cash grabs chasing modern trends. The most Zelda-like thing about them is just the title. Enjoy them if you want but don’t act like this is a great new direction for the series. The series was just turned into a soulless trend chaser.

[@FireRED-c8u]

You are the reason why game devs fear to experiment with new game play.

[@docni5825]

there was no other game like BOTW before BOTW. how was it chasing trends if it created it in the first place?

[@scratch2086]

@@FireRED-c8u Experiment all you want. The Zelda series has already loved experimenting with new ideas. The least experimental game in the series was TotK which couldn't even be bothered to come up with a new map (or a decent story for that regards). I'm just being tried of gaslit by the fandom that BotW is objectively better. Is it more popular? Sure. The same way bland, corporate-handled products usually are popular. Because they're made to appeal to everyone while resonating with no one. The Zelda series back in the day might have been more niche, but at least it had soul back then. It wasn't just chasing numbers. And that'll make those games better to me than however many millions of copies BotW 3 sells.

[@scratch2086]

@@docni5825 Skyward Sword did poorly the same year Skyrim was huge. They were chasing the open world genre and sacrificed pretty much everything that made the Zelda series unique and interesting to do it. Now they're chasing Minecraft highs. I wouldn't be surprised if the next big Zelda game is a team shooter at this rate lol

[@dragonslayer3552]

What trends ? These were absolutely revolutionary games, totk in particular did something no other game had ever done in the history of videogames, and the way botw handled the open world was completely unique to itself, there is no trend, if they chased trends these games would be maps full of quest markers and objectives like a Bethesda game Also soulless ? These games were a breath of fresh air in the gaming industry