Zootopia and the careless allegory - Movies are for the birds

[@kitsovereign4127]

Imagine how much more impactful that Zootopia subway scene would be if they instead had a giant giraffe recoiling from a tiny otter. Great video!

[@nichtschwert3307]

Aw damn are you kidding me? That's brilliant! I'm so mad I didn't think of that.

[@ricardobautista-garcia8492]

Interesting.

[@rhondahoward8025]

Zootopia still has some hard-hitting moments of commentary for me. Like when Nick says, "Oh, so there's a _them_ now?" when Judy tries to make the "Come on Nick, you're not one of _those_ predators." argument. Or when the pig stereotypes the jaguar by telling her to go back to the forest, when she's actually from the Savannah. And Nick's backstory can't help but tug on my heartstrings because he truly wanted to belong to a group, only to be rejected simply for the type of animal he was born as, instead of for the contents of his heart. "If the world is only going to see a fox as shifty and untrustworthy, there's no point in trying to be anything else." That's a legitimately powerful line for me, and is similar to Shrek's lament in his first movie: "People take one look at me and go 'Ah! Run! Help! A big stupid ugly ogre!' They judge me before they even know me." But then you have those absolutely weird lines like, "A bunny can call another bunny cute, but when other animals do it..." What does that refer to? Is that like "It's okay when black people call each other the N-word but not when white people do it" or something else? So I get how the movie can be a metaphorical mess at times.

[@nichtschwert3307]

Oh yeah, I totally agree. You have some real gems there between all the weird, severely misguided stuff. The line about the word "cute" also confused me a lot for a long time until someone pointed out to me that Judy's struggles aren't meant to reflect on racism but on misogyny instead. That explains a lot of things and in hindsight I could kick myself for not seeing it. But also the way the movie handles misogyny doesn't really work either for pretty much the same reasons. This movie is a mess.

[@simonj3413]

Minor bit, but I think that the “jaguar” in the scene you described was actually a leopard.

[@rhondahoward8025]

Simon J The more you know! (educational music plays)

[@RosheenQuynh]

I reheard Shrek's line recently and it hit hard with me because people judge me as a furry before they even get to know me; the person underneath the furry title...

[@vazak11]

Could also be how a lot of women might fondly call each other "Bitch" in a friendly way, but when a man says it, the context is rather different.

[@ravenhatter5395]

This is unrelated to the video but your little bird avatar is so cute I love it

[@nichtschwert3307]

That's not unrelated at all! The bird is in the video! Thank you so much! n

[@princegoatcheese9379]

As a Zootopia fanboy, I have to say I only ever enjoyed the movie for it's world building. I have a copy of the Zootopia art book and there are so many ideas they left on the cutting room floor, such as the more talked about premise that Nick Wilde was going to be the main character and the plot's theme revolved around systematic oppression rather than straight-up racism, Judy and Nick were going to visit more locations in the outskirts of the city, whole characters were scrapped including a badger character that was going to be Nick's partner before the script overhaul, detailed character designs for background characters that ultimately had a few seconds of screen time, and so much more. What I described is the big reason why a lot of fans want a sequel to Zootopia, they want to see more of the city and how it works. It's clear that the whole production crew paid extremely close attention to details that most people would gloss over (such as the way clothes are designed around the animal's body type (A.K.A. "furgonomics", a portmanteau of "furry" and "ergonomics") and how the buildings are constructed in different districts). Excellent critique, dude!

[@wl9162]

Things basically seem to boil down to "don't use predator animals as metaphors for black people." And personally, I find that to be quite easy.

[@nichtschwert3307]

That can't be where the bar is. But yeah that'd be a pretty great start.

[@wl9162]

@@nichtschwert3307 Yeah, that'd be a very, very, very low bar. :'O

[@electricangel4488]

maybe you should flip it

[@wl9162]

@@electricangel4488 Pardon?

[@wl9162]

@@electricangel4488 (Sorry, I'm super tired, but do you mean, like, flip the metaphor to black people being the prey animals? 'Cuz I don't feel like I'd be the right person to cover that, but it'd be a potentially very, very interesting statement, imo!)

[@TheSeptet]

This video articulates a feeling I've had about oppression allegories like Zootopia, X-Men, and others. When you depict the oppressed group as actually dangerous, you legitimize the real world fear. Great vid. You got yourself a new subscriber.

[@chewychibi03]

Simply an amazing critique of Zootopia. Jack Saint brought me here and I’m glad he did.

[@nichtschwert3307]

I'm glad he did, too! You're so kind. n

[@Parziivale]

I hadn't thought about how one could do the animal metaphor WELL like that even though I read Maus, so I'm really happy to see it not only showcased, but used as a comparison point- I think it's a really good choice, and a great video!

[@nichtschwert3307]

Thank you for the feedback! Very helpful! I'm glad the video makes sense. n

[@octavianjoseph8633]

The only way I can think of the animal metaphor working is if the racism is happening between the same species of animal. Like a German Shepherd picking on a poodle for being too dainty or something.

[@Marina-of-Nohr]

These are the sexiest tigers that I’ve ev- LMFAO

[@4dimensionalcat]

I love how he's already an anthropomorphic animal persona, but he still goes through the trouble of putting on wolf ears just for the occasion

[@Trecherousbeast]

I'm glad that I finally found someone else who thinks that the way that Zootopia portrayed racism was floppy. I definitely feel like the movie should be praised, but I'm just not comfortable with the racism parts like everyone else seems to be. Everywhere I look no one praises the animations or the fur physics it's always about the racism, which I just don't think was portrayed well. There was a cut version of Zootopia where Nick was the main character, and Judy was the side character who didn't seem to realize that racism even existed! I personally felt like that could have been a more meaningful way to "start the conversation" about racism since that's something that a lot of people can relate to. But that's "too dark" even though when you talk about racism you're going to get to some "dark" places. Also something that Jack Saint mentioned that I never really thought about. The writing staff was predominantly white.

[@nichtschwert3307]

Yeah that... That last bit is really obvious in hindsight and probably the biggest oversight in my video. Bless Jack Saint.

[@lkeke35]

I'm also glad I wasn't the only person to see the sloppiness of the allegory. One of the unintended side ideas created by it is that fear is a perfectly normal response to whoever is experiencing the prejudice. This same sloppy metaphor can also be found in the X-Men movies and comics, and in the shows Teen Wolf, and Heroes.

[@hariman7727]

It's not necessary to be minority to understand prejudice. I will argue that the "whites can't write well about racism" is rather racist. It's the same as saying men can't write women, or women can't write men. It just rings hollow as an argument. Also forgotten is that stereotypes exist because there's some truth to them. Take the "Italians are always mobbed up" stereotype. Were there Italian mobsters? Yes. Was that the majority of Italians? No. Or for a more serious example... **There are Jewish people who survived World War 2 that admitted that the Jewish communities/people wouldn't actively seek non Jewish friends in Germany before World War 2, meaning that there were a number of people who only interacted with the Jewish when it was time to pay rent, or during business transactions.** Which meant it was really easy to make the "greedy Jew" stereotype stick. And there's lots more examples like that. That's actually one thing that Zootopia gets right. The people who use racism as a tool will twist stereotypes and use any point they can twist to make their target look bad.

[@Trecherousbeast]

@@hariman7727 while white people can write about prejudice, I still don't think they can write it well especially when talking about racism. I feel like a lot of the problems with the movie if they had a more diverse staff or just confided in more people could have been way better. However though, like I said before, they had a pretty good racism allegory with the shock collar story, so I'm not entirely sure if it had anything to do with the writing staff since Disney executives are known for just coming in and changing the entire story to "relate to a bigger audience". It was Disney executives who thought that a story about RACISM had to appeal to everybody, which is impossible in my opinion. In the end, I do think it mostly has to do with Disney as a company coming in and ruining things, because they're a company.

[@hariman7727]

@@Trecherousbeast I will argue that diversity is a concept that has no value if it is forced. Diversity only has value if it happens naturally. Also, I don't think anyone could have sold the shock collar story as anything close to a children's movie. Something just occurred to me: What if zootopia is meant as an allegory for justifiable concern taken too far? Because, if we really want to be honest about certain issues, hyper reactionary concerned about race cause more harm than good. There was a police commissioner in Philadelphia who had his life ruined, because he was accused of having his policemen pull over blacks more often then any other ethnic group. It wasn't until something like 8 months after the scandal had ended and he'd already been fired with his reputation ruined that a study came out that showed the black men were speeding 3 times more often than any other ethnic group, proving that the extra traffic stops for black men were just the result of black men speeding more. I would also argue that zootopia is also a cautionary tale against allowing people to stoke those fears for political advantage.

[@skylis1724]

Thank you for this wonderful contrast between the use of animal imagery in Zootopia and Spiegelman's incredible Maus. Your argument came through clearly and was easy to follow. The visuals added meaningfully to your argument and illustrated what you were speaking about at every point. After this first part, I'd lost all hope for making use of such easy-to-recognize imagery to discuss issues of race and ethnicity, and then you did such a great job reminding me about Maus and how artfully Spiegelman planned his use of the imagery and critically examined its use in part 2. Very glad Jack Saint posted about your video on twitter; subscribed and looking forward to more content like this from your channel!

[@nichtschwert3307]

Thank you so much for your feedback! It means the world to me.

[@nichtschwert3307]

Read here for some important info and an FAQ: Hey, everybody! Thank you for watching the video. This huge wave of views and comments has been exhilarating and I appreciate how many of you are giving feedback and engaging in discussion of the points I raise. I have realised that the sheer amount of comments coming in are kinda starting to get too great for me to engage with all of them, so I want to let y'all know how I will proceed from here. I will not have the time to reply to all of your comments, but I do read all of them and I appreciate you taking the time to let me know what you think. I will reply if I think I have something thoughtful or useful to say. In many cases, if you have a question or criticism and don't find me answering it, chances are I already replied to a similar comment somewhere down the line. If you really care, maybe try browsing through the comments and see if your question was answered elsewhere. I'm terribly sorry for the inconvenience, but getting way too hung up on replying to everything has seriously been cutting into my time management. Also here's a quick little FAQ: Q: Are you German? A: Yes and I could kick myself for not outright stating that in the video because it's kind of fucking important, given the subject matter. Q: Judy's plotline about becoming a cop isn't about racism but misogyny. A: That's not a question, but good catch! I was only made aware of this after releasing the video and it's so damn obvious in hindsight. If I were to remake the video now, it would probably look quite different and I'm honestly very sorry I didn't catch that. Maybe I'll do an addendum where I get into that and why I think that portrayal of gender dynamics doesn't really work either, someday. For now, it is what it is. Q: When's the cop video coming out? A: I have no concrete plans for this, yet. I'm workshopping the idea but if it happens, it's probably still some time off. Sorry. Q: Why are ratings hidden? A: I find that likes and dislikes being publically visible incentivises behaviour I don't want to encourage and it primes expectations in ways that may be beneficial to the channel (if ratings are good, that is) but might also impact how critical people are of my work. I want the videos to stand for themselves and get people's honest reactions. Short version: I see no benefit to showing them, so I hide them. But I still appreciate when you leave likes or dislikes, however! Q: Have you seen Beastars? What's your opinion of it? A: I have read several chapters of the manga. I don't think I've read enough of it to really have an informed opinion. So far it seems like it isn't super relevant to the topic of the video, since its goal are completely different from those of both Zootopia and Maus. If I end up changing my mind I might make a follow-up video, but don't hold your breath. Q: Why was my comment deleted? Are you assaulting my right to expression? A: You have no right to expression in the comment section of my KZbin video. If I deleted your comment it may have been for various reasons: - It was racist, antisemitic, misogynistic, queerphobic, ableist or otherwise bigoted in nature or promoted fascism. - It was a parody of the above that I did not consider adequately distinct from simple bigotry. - It was wildly off-topic or otherwise inappropriate to the discussion - It promoted self-harm and/or suicide in favour of seeking professional help (You may discuss these things and how inaccessible professional help is and all that, but just don't push anybody towards drastic measures.) - It was unnecessarily harsh or attacked someone personally. Note that the above are not all morally equivalent. Holocaust denial is WAY worse than verbally lashing out at me, but both will get comments deleted. Me deleting your comment doesn't mean I hate you or don't value your input, it just means I don't want your comment here. (Unless your comment was fashy as hell, in which case, yeah, get lost.) If you have criticism or other feedback that you think would be best discussed in private rather than in public here in the comments, please shoot me a DM on Twitter @Nichtschwert. Bottom line, I want my channel and the comment sections to be safe and inclusive especially for marginalised people and the only way I can ensure that is by not tolerating bad behaviour.

[@lambtoken2708]

Ah yes Sexy Tigers

[@dean_l33]

Wat?

[@SpicyTake]

"and this is where the cat ears come off" lmao

[@nichtschwert3307]

@@oldred890 This is the gist of it. Also I don't want people who face racist bullshit everyday to also have to face it here.

[@ClownHoundII]

The thing that always stung was that fact that the idea of a prey going Savage was only said and not shown,. The main character meant to be white was in danger, and the minorities were the ones who supposedly caused it. It would have been better if the movie shows the horrors of some racist prey harming a innocent fox or bear. At the least, could have done better on the scapegoat bit with something minor being blamed on the predators or make everyone the same size.

[@krackencrusader403]

It would have been a lot better if there was say a cow attacking Nick during the final confrontation after being found out, that would be really cool and complete the movies logic.

[@ClownHoundII]

@@krackencrusader403 That would make is so much better! Did you mean the scene with the tiger in the cage inside bellwheather's building?

[@bebebonb0n]

@@krackencrusader403 i mean cows are capable of eating snakes so they aren't entirely innocent

[@ArtyMars]

I definitely felt like there was a HUGE disconnect somehow in this movie even tho i REALLY liked it and i just couldn't put my finger on what it was that was off, thanks for this!

[@nichtschwert3307]

I'm glad you got something out of it and I'm not just preaching to the choir here. n

[@ajf1807]

this video is a really good explanation of how discussing race through metaphor can be fraught, and im glad to see you bring up maus as a counterexample to zootopia! thank you!

[@ChakiOida]

I am so glad you talked about Maus here as a comparison and not Beastars because with it now coming out as an Anime, anyone and their mom has "BEASTARS IS ZOOTOPIA BUT GOOD/SMART/CLEVER" going around and it's... annoying. So yeah i went into this video primed with negativity, rolling my eyes when i saw it going live last night and finally watched it now. It's good! I think the points stand that metaphores need to be handled with a lot more care. I think Zootopia still works as a "first dive" but it shouldn't be the end-all. If it can be traced to anything, i'd say Fables, where most anthropomorphic stories hail from and that might be why Zootopia is careless in some depictions and fumbles: Because it hails back to a genre thats ancient and has always done this kinda carelessness because the basic point boils down to "Racism bad". Similar to how Wolf and the Seven Goats is an elaborate "don't open the door to strangers" story.

[@nichtschwert3307]

Hah, good thing this video spent several months in development hell, right? Maybe I'll annoy you later after I've seen Beastars and released "Addendum: Beastars is better than Zootopia". Anyway, yeah, it should be obvious that nobody should derive their understanding of complex social problems from children's media and Zootopia isn't gonna single-handedly turn people into racists. And it also probably doesn't appeal to fascists even though it agrees with them in certain points because the main message is still "We need to live together harmoniously". It's a fine movie with some really weird flaws.

[@rambo4916]

The thing is: Beastars truly is Zootopia but leagues better. Paru cares about the details: how different species interact, the prejudice towards carnivores and how people react to news of people being eaten. She answer questions about the food in the world/position of power/how society adapted overtime to live in a more peaceful manner. Besides that, every character feels very thought out and 3 dimensional. Legosi in just 80 chapter changes so much is frankly quite stunning Beastars should be celebrated for its accomplishments

[@mustardyboi4187]

@@rambo4916 It also helps that the fact that Beastars is centered towards an "animals with human characteristics" approach, rather than Zootopia's "Humans with animal characteristics". Beastars is a tragedy, that's why it works so well. It isn't necessarily about real-world racism, as it's mostly about the racism and social pressure (from both-ends) that exists in their society. Beastars is nothing like human society, which makes it far more interesting and that much more tragic.

[@IgnisDomini97]

@@mustardyboi4187 Rather, I think the thing that makes Beastars so much better is that it _isn't about racism at all, really._ It's about the inherent tensions between our innate natures and the environment we grow up in, and how both, ultimately, define us.

[@CanOpenerSmoothDream]

@@rambo4916 I disagree, Beastars kind of feels like its all over the chart with its morality. It flips between framing legosis actions as commendable, and punishing him for it. Notably when he overcomes his urges and is made physically weaker for it. While I enjoy sections showcasing how an animal society would work, it feels very strange that predators get a steroid esc boost for consuming meat, and very heavily dividing their behaviors into predator and prey rather then accounting for things like social pack driving species like the main character himself. Beastars kind of falls short on being an effective race or sexual power metaphor, but also doesnt quite fit a romp through an animal society that pays attention to the details.

[@chloe7059]

movies like zootopia are never really made w the intention of introducing the concept of racism to children as a whole, but rather, specifically to white children and white families. the creators are okay w not including any poc in their staff or in their creative process bc it was never meant for poc to begin w. hell, they don't even think abt it. we are never even considered in the process. i would even argue that it's not really abt introducing the concept of racism and its reality, but rather the concept of what white ppl would prefer racism to look like. it's a lot easier on the white individual to reckon w the idea that racism is a character flaw rather than an ideology and a history that permeates our society on every level and drives even the smallest of interactions on a daily basis, not to mention the material conditions of every single person in the entire world. that is a v uncomfortable thing for a white person to hear, and they generally don't want their children hearing it, either. they'll make excuses abt how it's too big of a concept, or too hard to understand. children of color don't need race explained to them. children of color know, intimately, what race is before they can even articulate it. we start out not understanding why ppl treat us differently or weirdly, why ppl assume things abt us or don't listen to us, but we are v aware that it happens. children of color don't need to see a big, heavy-handed allegory explaining to them that racism exists and is bad or w/e, they need community support and understanding, none of which movies like zootopia, that are so utterly centered on the white experience, can adequately provide.

[@nichtschwert3307]

Thank you so much for this incredibly insightful comment. It's the best kind of comment to get. Takes the subject matter of the video and and adds valuable information that, honestly, should have been in the video to begin with. I was scared that I was missing a lot of important points all the way through making this video and that I would eventually have to delete it in shame, but I'm so happy to see that people bringing up things that I missed isn't nearly as painful as I thought it would be. Even though I see a lot of flaws with it now, I also feel like I'm actually learning and it's nice to know that I apparently got enough of it right that people are willing to take the time to add to it. Honestly, really honestly: Thank you.

[@chloe7059]

@@nichtschwert3307 np bro

[@larpdude7308]

Racism is a human issue. You can't really portray it accurately with characters that aren't human. You just end up being unintentionally racist in one way or another, for example, equating minority groups to literal predators. Racism also changes depending on where you are in the world and the culture in those places. Zootopia tends to focus on the issues of racism in Western, white-majority countries only. Using predators to represent black people places other minority groups into the prey category, invalidating racism that those groups may have faced. TL;DR: My issue with Zootopia is that it uses non-human characters to refer to what is a uniquely human experience, while also focusing only on Western cultures and (literally) black-versus-white racism. I love the character and world design, and I know they "meant well", but I wonder how it made it to theaters without SOMEONE saying "Hey, wait a minute...". Probably just people trying to look "woke" without actually caring about what they're talking about.

[@nichtschwert3307]

Yeah, you're pretty much right on the money, there, though I wouldn't go so far as to deny the people who made it their good intentions. I'm sure they actually wanted to make the world a better place. But we all know what the road to hell is paved with and it's not "Hiring people who face racism and take their lived experiences into account", which apparently wasn't a high priority.

[@thelostredcoat4844]

certain dolphin species do show signs of racism i believe, which in my opinion would be a much cooler and more realistic movie about dolphins with minute differences but still part of the same species instead of species acting like they have minute differences

[@Lucifersfursona]

There’s something so powerful about hitting one video essay out of the park one time and then being like “nice I’m heading out”

[@Broeckchen]

Another lovely video I really enjoyed! Your videos are so fun to actually watch, too, because your little birb is just so delightful to look at! Really awesome job at the comedic editing of the Zootopia parts and scripting!

[@Zoltiboi]

This is one of the best video essays I have ever seen. I love the depth to your thoughts and the points you explained seemed so obvious afterwards, but I legit never thought about any of this before. Thank you for taking time to make this video. I will 100% read "Maus", thanks for the recommendation

[@nichtschwert3307]

Thank you so much! Glad you liked and I hope you get as much out of Maus as I did.

[@GreekDudeYiannis]

I think it's also important to note how Zootopia is pretty much written, directed, produced, and voiced by white people who are likely to have a rather narrow conception of how racism works and how it would be fixed in a society like that. Of the entire voice cast, there are seemingly only three actors who aren't white and they all play tertiary characters who are largely unimportant to the story. Like, it just feels weird that a movie centered on the topic of racism would be made by people who've likely never had to deal with the direct effects of racism, and that there's such little input from those who are.

[@nichtschwert3307]

You've hit on a pretty big omission on my part. I really should have brought this up, but somehow it slipped below the radar. Really would have put some things into perspective. That's my bad.

[@kid14346]

Nichtschwert, makes one of the best zootopia analysis videos... then just disappears.

[@nichtschwert3307]

Aw, thank you so much. I haven't entirely disappeared. I have been working on stuff, but none of it has panned out, for various reasons. I really appreciate that people still want to see more, though. It means a lot. I hope I'll get back to it sometime soon.

[@kid14346]

@@nichtschwert3307 I hope you are doing well and everything you want to do works out!

[@Diana-tl8pn]

Another problem that Zootopia possesses is the issue of mix relations. Although people ship Nick and Judy, the text never even pose the question of them being other thing than friends not only because it is a buddy cop film but also because Nick and Judy are from different species. A rabbit and a fox can't actually have children. If you interpret the text as a racist allegory (which it is), what does it say about people with mix marriage? That is not natural to fall in love or relate intimately with people that are from different races? Which well it is not exactly a good message.

[@nichtschwert3307]

Damn I think you might be right. All the couples in the movie are same-species. Judy's parents, the Ottertons, Judy's loud neighbors... Flash and his coworker whom he clearly hooks up with on a regular basis...

[@dullicecream]

@@nichtschwert3307 Imagine how slow date night would be...

[@electricangel4488]

they do have semi romantic scene at the end. so a kid will proably still pick that up without the thought that its impossible

[@mustardyboi4187]

I'm pretty sure we got a very on-the-nose love confession from Judy when Nick says "You know you love me".

[@Diana-tl8pn]

@@mustardyboi4187 Both Angel and you had said this reads as romantics and it can be read that way. But for me it felt that it is very a lined with the witty friendly banter of the entire movie. It could be read either way, and this being a kids movie, I don't think they were into some romantic

[@FayeFahrenheit]

So I'm subbing to you after hearing about your content from jack saint. I'm also a small content creator. I hope your channel grows BIG. You deserve it.

[@nichtschwert3307]

Aw shucks. Thank you! That is so kind of you to say!

[@OpreRoma]

Jack Saint brought me here and you've got yourself a new subscriber. Great video I remember my first exposure to both fascism and the absurdity of racism was when my dad gave me his copy of Maus when i was still in primary school. Harrowing read, but one I'd recommend to everyone, it does an amazing job of portraying the terror and irrationality of the ideas that drove the holocaust and the destruction they caused

[@sclerotin8519]

This is such a good analysis! Just got here from Jack Saint’s video. This neatly put words to some thoughts I had about Zootopia, and more recently, Beastars and the use of animal allegory in general. But it also pointed out a lot of things I’d missed about Zootopia and just how muddy the animals-as-metaphors-for-humans got. It was a great segment when you brought up Nazi propaganda and how it used animal metaphors to reinforce ideas of inherent biological differences between human races, and then how Maus picks those metaphors apart. Super well done, thank you very much for making this.

[@arthursemeghinigallo3336]

I think beastars made a better work than Zootopia in use this metaphor.There,you really fell that we are seeing animals acting like humans and not the oposite.

[@thesatelliteslickers907]

Expected him to walk back on as an anthro bird twink

[@nichtschwert3307]

I figured a bird wearing a costume to "become" furry was the better joke, but YMMV.

[@blissfulrain]

This was a good watch and before I run off to check out more videos of yours I want to share my view of Zootopia. I find Zootopia works better not as a 1:1 metaphor for racism but one for the system of oppressive social hierarchies. We're shown several systems at work in Zootopia not just the predators vs. prey one. Big vs. small animals and speciesism are shown to be intersecting. The discrimination Judy faces mirrors sexism closer than Nick's discrimination which more resembles racism but both are examples of speciesism. It can even be argued that the discrimination Nick faces is often intersectional stemming from his being a predator, small, and a fox. I also like how much like real discrimination the distinction of predator and prey isn't sufficient or accurate. Foxes are omnivores that are preyed upon by a variety of other animals. Hippos are vicious and nothing preys on adult hippos. Yet based on the system of oppression foxes are strictly predators and Hippos are prey.

[@EvelynnEleonore]

Incredible work!!!! so glad i found this channel it's heartening to know ppl like you exist here in Germany

[@nichtschwert3307]

Thank you so much!

[@EvelynnEleonore]

@@nichtschwert3307 (also psst is there a magicmaker discord or something because i need a place to gush about some spells ive put together)

[@nichtschwert3307]

@@EvelynnEleonore Not that I know of, unfortunately, but if you like you can DM me on Twitter. I'd love to see what you came up with.

[@MayorOfEarth79]

This was a wonderful video; I even was really swayed as someone who really loves Zootopia (Animation, Story, Characters especially) I always knew the racial metaphor was kind of sloppy because you can't do a straight 1:1 comparison of animals/pred/prey with race cause it's so different. However I do think because the movie plays into the scale and these inherent differences between the species, it does leave a lingering element of "Well...some stereotypes are true." The movie doesn't lean into that with the messaging, however it definitely does when it comes to the humor. Part of it makes me think they missed this step because Disney was really happy to explore the scale and different environment to create when you put that into process. (Which did make the animation really good) I do have one question though considering the themes. What do you think about the arc of Gideon? Does he also fit the narrative that racism/prejudice is more individual than systematic or is he more of an outlier? I do think you generalize things a little to broadly as racism being entirely individually driven (as the system does influence some characters to become more actively prejudice) I remember that character sticking out as something unique in the discussion cause his change towards Judy was very unique. Either way, you really dove into the subject expertly...and hope more people will be reading Maus.

[@nichtschwert3307]

Yeah exactly, the movie kinda tries to have its cake and eat it too by portraying the main stereotype of the predatory predator as unfounded but playing most of the others completely straight for the comedy. And the comedic bits are great, not gonna lie! But they come at the expense of a clear message and purpose. There was a version of the script where I talked a lot more about the whole systemic vs. individual racism thing, but I cut most of it to keep the video focused on the main point. I'll go into a bit more detail here. THis might be rambly, sorry in advance. Gideon's arc is definitely interesting, but I don't feel it makes a systemic critique. Gideon is a bully with a head full of racist prejudice which he likey picked up from society around him. He grows up to be a friendly guy who seems to have successfully dealt with all the racist baggage and is genuinely contrite about how he acted as a child. My take on him is that he's supposed to show that racist children don't necessarily grow up to become racist adults and that even Judy's parents can grow beyond their smalltown prejudice (They're working with a FOX?! Outrageous!) So the movie wants you to know that prevalent racism in society shapes people and that people can grow out of it, which is true, but also mostly an individual angle. What I mean when I say that systemic racism is pretty much absent from the movie is that you never get the feeling that anybody is ever inhibited by systemised prejudice, but always by some individual making a racist decision. The closest the movie gets is in the police academy training montage. As it starts out it's very clear that the academy is not set up with people like Judy in mind and she has to struggle way harder than everybody else to get anywhere, but she does manage it without any help or consideration and it reads more like the common trope of "Rookie goes to boot camp and it's very tough but then she puts her mind to it and excels" than an actual criticism of the academy being set up this way. They could have made it a systemic critique by leaning into the ways police academy is not accomodating for people like Judy at all. Show her coming late to a class because she had to go change after falling in the toilet. Show her having a tough time studying because none of the books at the library are small enough for her to comfortably handle and read. Show her having to argue with some official who lets her know that technically, by law you can't enter the academy if you're not at least 1.50m tall. This wouldn't really work as a portrayal of systemic racism, but it could have been quite potent for making people understand the basic concept of systemic prejudice and especially how it affects disabled people. For a more race-focused systemic critique they could have expanded on Nick's backstory a bit more. In the film, the reason he can't join the Ranger scouts is that the other children don't accept him for racist reasons. The film does say that the Wildes aren't particularly wealthy so buying him a uniform was a significant expense which makes it all the more tragic when it doesn't work out. They could have leaned into that more. Instead of having the children be openly racist directly to his face, they could have shifted the problem to the system by having a situation where everybody around Nick in his childhood is generally very accepting of foxes and they have full and equal rights, but it's clear that this wasn't always so. That there was a time when foxes were not allowed to work well-paying professions or that they were barred from owning land or whatever and that Nick Wilde's family, while technically having the same rights as everybody else is still suffering from intergenerational poverty because those discriminatory laws were abolished but never compensated for. Have Nick actually be super friendly with the ranger scouts and lament that he can't join because his family simply cannot buy the uniform AND put food on the table. Now this is only an example to illustrate what I would consider a meaningful systemic critigue. I'm not actually advocating for making this change to the movie, because the way the movie does it is very important in highlighting the one kind of prejudice the movie consistently portrays well. But it would have been cool to have systemic racism brought up in some way. I hope that answered the question for you. Anyway thanks for the chance to elaborate on this! I love talking about Zootopia and I swear I don't always just talk about the parts I don't like. Because honestly, it's probably my second favourite Disney movie after Lilo and Stitch (which by the way actually does have meaningful things to say about systemic injustice).

[@oof-wi7hp]

@@nichtschwert3307 wow you expand on your thoughts so well ❤️❤️❤️❤️

[@Fusilier7]

I am an zoologist, if I can offer my impute, Zootopia fails to understand animal hierarchy, carnivores are at the top of the food chain, however, if carnivores are meant to be people of colour, they should be at the bottom of the social hierarchy, which would be more synonymous with herbivores. Instead, the carnivores, with the exception of Nick Wilde, occupy the upper echelons of Zootopia, despite being a minority, something more akin to apartheid South Africa. In my field, we do not use predator or prey, we classify animals based on what they eat, carnivores, herbivores and omnivores, and it's the omnivores that are left out of Zootopia, such as mice, rats, squirrels, chipmunks, swine, bears, skunks, hedgehogs, sloths and foxes, that's right, Nick Wilde is actually an omnivore. Contrary to popular belief, carnivores are not necessarily hunters, they are foragers and scavengers, eating carrion rather than hunting, carnivores maybe equipped with natural instincts and features, herbivores are also equipped to fight or flight, making hunting risky and prone to failure. Zootopia does not adequately understand either human society, nor animal ecosystems, wildlife is not the same as civilisation, carnivores, herbivores and omnivores coexist on the same habitat, without the same social constructs humans have foraged for millenniums, although we use animals for Aesop fables, animals should not always be the substitute to discuss human maladies.

[@nichtschwert3307]

Yeah the metaphor the movie is using is super basic. I don't think this would necessarily a problem if they had handled things better. A metaphor doesn't need to be true to science or even true to life. it just needs to be understandable. So I think the main issue is still flawed understanding of the various social conflicts the animals allegorical for. But I imagine... if I am already balking at elephants being prey while foxes are predators, this movie must be very annoying to watch as an actual zoologist. lol Then again, I'm a software engineer and I can watch the Matrix just fine, so it might also just be a matter of putting on your good-time hat.

[@spicedch4i]

came for the zootopia analysis, stayed for Maus, which I've never read but am glad to have found out about from this video

[@nichtschwert3307]

Oh hell yeah! Always glad to point people towards the good stuff! I hope you'll find Maus as eye-opening as I did.

[@OctagonalGolbat]

"Not at all, Mr. Strawman, sir!" I cracked up so hard at that!

[@oof-wi7hp]

this was so great!! this is the first one of your videos i have seen but i already look forward to more essays by you on films (since i don't know squat about games) that bit about nazis depicting jewish people as vermin that needed to be exterminated made me burst into tears. just. i keep forgetting how cruel humans can be and have been. and i am reminded again and again. maus is so so SO good. one of the best books i have ever read. i would recommend it to everyone back to the brighter topics, your jokes landed very well. i agree, zootopia tigers are extremely sexy

[@nichtschwert3307]

Thank you! I feel games are more my wheelhouse, but I'm probably gonna be talking about games and movies both in the future. And yeah, Maus hurts so much to read, but I keep coming back to it over and over anyway. Powerful stuff, that!

[@Broeckchen]

I recommend watching the game videos anyways! They're not made "for gamers", but are more like... listening to a good friend lighting up with joy and love for something they care about. And Nicht made some adorable tiny animations in them, too. C:

[@KOTEBANAROT]

Same. I couldn't help myself, I just wept for the entire time the Maus segment played. Spiegelman is right: maybe we humans should always feel guilty, all the time.

[@electricangel4488]

i advise you watch the man in the glass booth it broke me out of a feeling like that

[@Dr.Sho_Minamimoto]

The anime “Beastars” took this premise of a plot and turned it up to 11. Hell, there is some really interesting things (which I won’t say for the sake of spoilers) that are played up that zootopia/zoomania/zootropolis could not do because of its rating.

[@nichtschwert3307]

I've actually read a good chunk of the Manga in the time since making this video. I can't really give an opinion on it yet, since I feel I need to read/watch more and also percolate on what I've seen. So far I quite like that Beastars doesn't seem to be purposefully drawing parallels between the predatro-pry-dynamic and real-world race relations. It seems to be very much its own beast. If there's a conscious metaphor there, I feel it might actually be a lot more focused on sexuality, but that's just a rough feeling I have. Maybe I'll do an essay on that someday, but for now I have some other ideas I need to get out first.

[@fillername7974]

Nichtschwert I definitely agree that Beastars focuses more on themes of sexuality than race. The theme of males and predators being different and removed from females and prey only escalates in the manga as it goes on. There are very few cases where the dynamic changes to showing female predators and male prey, similarly to how our media almost never shows women as a threat to men.

[@neurowonderful]

This was great! Well written, well presented, very well done.

[@nichtschwert3307]

Thank you so much! It makes me very happy to know all the hard work paid off.

@@nichtschwert3307 could you sometime make a video about how badly this movie approached the massage part?(judy is our main character and her conflict centered around being David in a world with Lot of Goliaths! But rather than small beats the weak it could have been about being more pragmatic and taking advantage of one's own unique skills rather than trying to be something else, as in judy still can be a cop but she'd be more suited for jobs similar to chasing weaselton in the mice city taking advantage of her size and speed.) keep in mind the racism allegory starts when Nick enters the picture.

[@nichtschwert3307]

@ Hi, thanks for your comment! I don't really wanna do that. I feel the movie basically already does it. It portrays Judy's value as a cop as an out-of-the-box thing. The other cops think she'd make a poor police woman because they think a cop needs to be big and strong, but it turns out that those qualities aren't needed and can sometimes even be a hindrance. The problem with this - even if we consider that Judy's arc is less about racism and more about misogyny - is that women do not really have innate qualities as the metaphor suggests. There is a statistical difference between men and women in muscle mass and size, sure, but women police officers don't really need to do their job in a way that dffers drastically from how men do it. The message reads to me as "Women can be an asset to law enforcement because their womanly qualities may be useful" and... that's not a good message. Being a woman is not a physical or even mental disadvantage for the job. It is mainly a social one. The movie sort of covers that part with its "Don't judge a cop by their species" message.

[@HadBabits]

Really glad Jack Saint pointed me your way; great video ^^

[@Averageuser772]

there's a comment i saw in jack saint's video which says: "You are correct that when Zootopia is viewed as a direct racial allegory, it becomes problematic. There are parts of the story that fit, others that fit awkwardly, and others were it doesn't work at all. The reason for this is that both the directors and writers have said that the film isn't intended as a racial allegory but was an examination of bias (both personal and societal) and how it leads to stereotyping, prejudice and profiling. The creative team worked extensively with Shakti Butler, PhD, Founder and Creative Director of World Trust, who is an educator in the field of racial equity to make sure they were presenting bias correctly especially when it touched on racial themes. So rather than being one consistent racial allegory throughout the story, it's a series of different views of bias at work in different situations. So while your commentary has merits, its fundamental assumption is flawed. You are analyzing the movie through the wrong set of lenses."

[@nichtschwert3307]

Yuuuup I realized this a couple hours after posting the video lmao. I stand by most of what I said, but yeah somehow the fact that for example "first bunny cop" is more of a gender allegory, slipped past me. Mea culpa.

[@eli-kave]

I really hope you keep making videos. This was a great video about an important topic.

[@TheNotverysocial]

I think one thing worth praise lore wise is the fact only mammals ascended. No reptiles, birds, nor fish did. And insects did not develop higher intelligence. As such it effectively dodges the question of what preds actually eat. Apart from omnivorous ones like Nick Wilde. Contrast with movies like Warner's *Cat's Don't Dance* or better, a franchise like *My Little Pony* which go to great lengths to ensure it clear all beings are sapient without exception, feral lifeforms simply do not exist. In the latter's case it really is a mess, for it established real animals as we know them in physiology exist. Omnivorous creatures like wolves, bears, and so on who eat berries and fruits as well as meat may make it fine, but what about raptor and cat species that cannot thrive on any type of vegetation and need meat alone? Somehow someway, a lion and an eagle and all of their kind are starving, being malnourished on unnatural diets, or someone is getting eaten, likely routinely.

[@burritocereno]

i'm so glad i watched this!! your commentary is really insightful and really gets to the core of what happens when allegory is potentially misused in spite of good intentions. I'd both read Maus and watched Zootopia before this video came out, and i feel like i've come away from it understanding both materials a lot better, and it's presented with a fairness and clarity that i feel a lot of reviewers and analysts on youtube lack. between this and your stellar rogue one video (heh...stellar) i'm super excited to see more from you and your unspeakably cute lil bird persona in the future!

[@nichtschwert3307]

Thank you so much! Detailed feedback is just so super helpful. I cannot stress this enough: if the video intrigued you, give MetaMaus a read. You won't regret it!

[@TheMrfoxguy]

Yeah some KZbin reviewers let their fanboy and fangirl get in the way and are way too positive and ignore flaws.

[@talgdame6855]

It came that I was involved in wirting a theatre play for children a few years ago when i was around 18 years old. I t halso has some kind of animal metaphor in it while being discussing racism (at least I tried). And I remember it being quite hard not to make the same mistake as zootopia did, using "animal-tropes" for comedy, because of course a turtle is slow and wise. But sometimes I couldn't hold it back. I guess when you chose to use the animal metaphor in such a way you have to be really careful not to be too lazy writing it, since it can easily backfire.

[@Brilchan]

A great and intelligent video I also love your birdie avatar it's just so cute

[@lkeke35]

This is a careless metaphor found in a lot of media created by white people though. The X-men also does this, along with the show Teen Wolf, where the people experiencing the fear and prejudice are also incredibly powerful paranormal creatures, or mutants with dangerous abilities. This is a metaphor that keeps getting repeated over and over in American media. The only time I've seen it done correctly was in Maus.

[@nichtschwert3307]

You're not wrong! Truth be told this video was originally supposed to touch on more than just these two works. I was also going to talk about some video games, fantasy fiction and, yes, the X-men. But after scripting the bit about Zootopia, I found that it was already much longer than I wanted it to be and I was still unsatisfied with its clarity, because the problems of the metaphor are actually surprisingly complex. So in order to not get too bogged down and release a one hour monster of an essay that would be difficult to follow, I axed all that other stuff in service of clarity and brevity. Some of the things I was going to talk about are tentatively finding a new home in future video projects as appropriate.

[@nickthepick8043]

Using MAUS as a comparison was perfect. Excellent choice. We had that graphic novel in school, but I never read it. I got the point of it, from what the teacher described. But a part of me wonders how it would have influenced my development positively. Ima read it someday.

[@BongoSeason]

Great video. I see this isnt your usual content topic type but I'm glad to have found this channel all the same.

[@juliet0001]

I watched the entire video before noticing it has so few views! it is so high quality it deserves far more views.

[@nichtschwert3307]

Thank you! That is so nice of you to say. I did work very hard on it and I'm glad it paid off. u

[@CadenceTheSloth]

That intro was the cutest thing I’ve ever seen

[@anarchofairy9400]

this was fantastic! i knew there was a reason why zootopia missed the mark with it's allegory (apart from the police being inherently a load of utter f-) and you articulated it perfectly! super entertaining too :D

[@celinehatting3080]

Came over from Jack Saint's video. You're making really good stuff! I really enjoyed the video, so please keep making them. You have a new subscriber ^^

[@SpoopySquid]

Coming over from Jack Saint. Great video

[@mygills3050]

Two guys are going to plane. Guy 1 with nothing on him checks out. Guy 2 with a grenade gets found out. Cops arrest him Guy 1 yells “your like racists, but you’re discriminating against terrorists!”

[@warnegoodman]

Even while watching Zootopia when it came out in theaters I remember noting that because the police were so convinced that small animals could not be police, because you need to be a big and strong animal to be a police officer, the part of the city populated by small animals has no police and is instead ruled by a murderous gangster. Something the police apparently are not even aware is a problem.

[@Arphenya]

Great video! (the tigers are indeed sexy) you definitely put into words and largely expanded some of the feelings I had watching the film. I'll definitely check out Maus and Metamaus now

[@nichtschwert3307]

Hell yeah. I hope you'll find them as meaningful as I did! Just make sure you're gonna be safe. That comic is very rough to read in parts. u

[@morelsupports]

it delighted me when you say "nonbinary pals and guys and gals". IM FIRST THIS TIME.

[@nichtschwert3307]

Credit should go to Curio, a good enby who makes incredible video essays. They came up with it. I just stole it, because I thought it's super neat.

[@naki5226]

I see a lot of people miss undurstanding the whole metaphore, they tend to compare preds and prey with black and white people and make the usual speech of "its not good being bad" But if you paid attention enough, the movie aims way more prejudice than racism. Even if, the fact that we see discrimination on both side (pred and predator) shows that this isn't about a black and white metaphore or something else. It's about how you treat/classify people just for what he was born. The usage of media to spray hate to a group of people (intentional or not) is also showed to represent how people actually gather prejudices and endup being racist. So on, people that are getting sterotyped are reduced to something that they haven't chosed for. And this is why in Zootopia, according to your spicie, you are supposed to fill a role even if you didn't really wanted to be that way, but just because you were born that way, you have no choice. Judy, didn't wanted to follow the path that was given to her, but chose her own path. At the beginning she worked hard and fought for her dreams but didn't obtained what she wanted because she was reduced to be a carrot farmer because she was a bunny. Same thing with Nick who wanted to join the ranger scouts but gets rejected because no one trusted him because he was a fox and so on became that sly fox because he couldn't be anything else than that. So, our 2 protagonist started on the opposite side, Judy who fights hard to achieve her goals of being a police officer and Nick that abandoned to be anything else than what the world sees him. At the end of the day, the duo broke that prejudice barrier and actually chose who they are. And this is what the movie maker wanted to tell : *don't let the people define who you are* because this is what they said in one of their interviews, and not about the "black and white" metaphore that everyone is repeating over and over again.

[@thephysicsgamer123]

Okay but when are we going to hear about those police opinions?

[@nichtschwert3307]

That's probably still a little ways off. I haven't really found a way to turn that one into a video worth watching. But I'm thinking about it.

[@electricangel4488]

@@nichtschwert3307 kinda weird to hear a german joke about the police.

[@Edmonddantes123]

All cats are beautiful

[@nichtschwert3307]

@@Edmonddantes123 I appreciate the sentiment, I really do. But this comment may come off kinda weird in response to a video heavily referencing Maus, where cats are a Nazi allegory.

[@Edmonddantes123]

@@nichtschwert3307 This was really about the police video to come but I guess it's a bit of a cryptic comment for most people

[@froglaine]

Great and thoughtful video, excellent production quality!

[@whitneymouse]

Your voice is so soothing. I felt like I could listen all day. That aside, this was a very well-executed thesis and presentation about the way racism is shown through allegories in the media. Thank you for your hard work!

[@nichtschwert3307]

Thank you for the feedback! It means the world to me!

[@Seligsuper]

The anime/manga series Beastars deals with a similar presence but completely distances itself from the racism allegory through worldbuilding and establishing the rules of the series. The people in Beastars are NOT meant to be allegorical to humans, they're anthropomorphic animals that have grown into a society similar to humanity, but vastly different. It portrays relations between species, gender, etc in ways that almost seem to exist within a vaccuum- the author makes you forget that you could draw comparison between our society and theirs. Anyway, it's brilliant and I recommend checking it out. Definitely a darker tone than Zootopia.

[@Spacecatswillkillus]

I've also read Beastars, not all of it, probably (~70 chapters), but from what I've read, Beastars is actually far more problematic than Zootopia. First off, the manga has a very odd relationship with sexual violence. The manga uses the predator/prey dynamic as a metaphor for sexual predation, which is then fetishized through the depiction of sexual violence. Characters actually go through attempted/actual rape depicted "on screen" while their bodies are framed voyeuristically. Second, I don't think you easily wave away the presence of allegory in Beastars. The manga does not actually exist in a vacuum. Much like Zootopia, the story is about social strife between two very distinct social groups that are fundamentally biologically different. Regardless of the diagetic context, this premise alone carries political implications. Unlike Zootopia however, the carnivores as a social group actually do threaten the lives of herbivores due to their biological instinct, and this is demonstrated again and again throughout the manga when herbivores get eaten or mutilated by either blood-hungry carnivores or just by accident due to sheer strength difference. Beastars, whether intentional or not, shows a world where some groups of people are intrinsically dangerous. This is further codified when the allegorical racism is actually justified within the text itself. Characters will make comments after someone's limb has been ripped off that carnivores need to be more careful. The main character is an allegorical sex predator who struggles between his desire to "eat" his love interest and love her sincerely. Him and his love interest has to work hard to make their interspecies relationship work while other interspecies relationships end disastrously with one or more parties becoming seriously hurt. Beastars has some interesting things about it, but it is not exactly an alternative to Zootopia for anyone who is disturbed by these allegories. tl;dr Beastars is like Zootopia, but predators are actually dangerous and racism is justified, also the story likes to use the predator/prey dynamic as a metaphor to fetishize sexual violence

[@nichtschwert3307]

I cannot speak to this as I have not read/seen it. But I will check it out, thanks!

[@Seligsuper]

Curious if you've read Watership Down? Or perhaps read anything regarding how animals interact in real life? Allegories don't need to be intentional but the author of Beastars NEVER makes a single reference to how these characters "should" be acting. The sexual violence stuff is trickier, I've never read it that way, but the relationship is obviously built with a lot of drama packed in. My basic point here is that it *is* allegorical, but not to humans. Its allegorical to animals. Furthermore, Beastars is constantly disavowing casting any moral judgements on the actions of certain characters, especially when they are acting "on instinct". (yt mobile wont let me reread your comment so I hope I didnt miss much)

[@Seligsuper]

@@Spacecatswillkillus oh and, what rape scene? I love the series and cannot recall anything like that?

[@Spacecatswillkillus]

@@Seligsuper Nah, you're good, you got the gist of it. (Trigger Warning: Sexual Violence, skip to the next paragraph if you don't want to read it) There's a scene where Haru gets kidnapped by lion mobsters, and her main love interest Legoshi has to rescue her. The lion mob boss plans to "eat" her, and during the process he strips her naked and examines her in a very explicit sexual way. It's framed graphically as if it where a rape scene. Of course the mobster never gets around to "eating" Haru before the main character comes in to save the day, but she is violently handled and genuinely scared for her life as the scene frames her body titillatingly. I mean, there's just a whole load of yikes in this scene. Prey/predator interactions as a sexual metaphor is a common overarching theme of the manga. If you don't remember this, that's fair; the manga has been ongoing for sometime and I binged ~70 chapters in about a day or two. If you read it from the beginning, you'll definitely see these allegories. The manga is purposely vague with the line between "predatory instincts" and sexual tension because blurring this line is used to engage and titillate the reader. (This manga is suuuuuper horny in general, at least in the first half). I don't reserve any judgements for this allegory in particular, but in general I think the implications and issues surrounding consent are framed poorly and handled tastelessly. Specifically, the themes of "predator" as a metaphor for "sexual predator" don't really engage with consent in any meaningful way. I don't think you can necessarily dismiss the allegory towards humans simply because other works like Zootoopia are far more blunt and intentional with its racial metaphor. I have never personally read Watership Down, but from what I heard, it seems like it doesn't apply its allegories in the same way that Beastars and Zootopia do. Beastars may star animals, but they don't behave like animals in any meaningful way. I don't think you can meaningfully make a story about -"What if animals, but each animal is their own unique social group?" and have it not carry political messages. There are plenty of interesting and engaging things about Beastars, and I'm not particularly out to dismiss Beastars as a whole, or use it as a measuring stick against Zootopia. Zootopia and Beastars are two very different works trying to accomplish very different things. I am just baffled at the idea of Beastars as a "woker" alternative to Zootopia. The sexual violence alone makes it far more controversial.

[@dielotosblum]

I love your videos and I'm sad you haven't posted in a while, but I hope you're doing other fulfilling things.

[@nichtschwert3307]

Thank you so much. Work on the next one is going slow and the pandemic situation isn't helping. I appreciate that people still care! Another video will come.

[@Barakon]

Lmao wolves howl at each other, not the moon, that’s why hearing wolves howl gets dogs and wolf dogs gets them to howl too.

[@nichtschwert3307]

You know what? That makes a ton of sense! Thanks.

[@pikachuthegayatheist6215]

I remember something from the movie Titanic that plays to the role, but it is more so of a class issue and how the bourgeoisie was he feels about the lower class ( AKA the proletariat ). In the scene after Rose Dawson was saved by Jack Dawson, Jack Dawson was invited to a dinner party with her family, Rose Dawson had stated that her mother, however, felt that Jack was like a cockroach because one he was part of the proletariat ( even though the movie never made this distinction ), and two she had fallen in love with him while knowing he was a part of the proletariat and having an assigned fiance who was part of the bourgeoisie, so her mother who is also a part of the bourgeoisie would not lose her estate. It's funny because the movie did show however in one scene that the bourgeoisie did discriminate against new members of the bourgeoisie from proletariat, mainly the scene where it was talking about Molly Brown, mainly because of who she was before she got married to somebody who struck it rich finding gold.

[@RobotLover696]

what a great video essay! u just gained a subscriber

[@surprisesdaedra2863]

They should honestly should do a movie about speciesism, not try to force racism in a world that otherwise doesn’t exist.

[@elpretender1357]

Do you mean speciesism like exploring the inner workings Zootopia would realistically have between different species, or speciesism as a message to the audience about how we humans should treat animals? because if it's the second, you're never going to have Disney make a movie which moral contradict's the status quo. (Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love bold themes or unusual points of view to be featured in all kind of stories, even if at the end of the journey I agree with the message or not)

[@surprisesdaedra2863]

El Pretender Yeah, about animal exploitation. I feel like pulling it off would be hard especially taking your point into account. I hadn’t thought of that.

[@elpretender1357]

@@surprisesdaedra2863 I literally hand my money to anyone wich story features a theme that people dislike or is a very minoritary opinion, that's why "racism bad" movies have me tired, unless is one of those stories that are very engagin and giving a moral to the audience is just secondary.

[@swinginthewolf6554]

Very late to this video but I loved the comparison between Zootopia and Maus. I've seen lots of videos talking about Zootopia and Beastars, so this was new to me. In my opinion, Zootopia would have been better if the message was about general oppression and societal flaws, and how the various differences between people have massive impacts on how society views them. For example, Judy's struggles come from her being a bunny- so expand on that. In many scenes we see how she has to find alternative methods of navigating the world because of how small she is and how much larger everything else is, so start a discussion about accessibility. She's also a woman entering the police force, who has been taught prejudice from her family and unwittingly holds those beliefs despite saying she doesn't- so build on how her past experiences with a bully who was a male fox would lead to her decisions as an officer. Both Nick and Judy come from low income backgrounds (I doubt the Hopps family had a lot of spare money with that many children and probably lived off their crops a lot) but from various areas, which they slightly mention with Nick's disillusionment with city life which was a great way to connect the two. Animals should not be used as racial metaphors in such simple ways because as you said in the video, there are many ways to take the wrong message. If you condense it down like Maus or An American Tail, you create less confusion and can nail down what you're trying to say. If you're doing a more general story like Zootopia or Beastars, lean more towards Beastars with the animal elements relating to various subject matters instead of accidentally saying that there is an innate biological reason to be scared of other races.

[@jimmyl27]

When the little bird avatar jumps it is beautiful

[@DeathxStrike18]

It only took a cop breaking the law to get nick to be lawful, cause that makes sense.

[@nichtschwert3307]

The law is so good that enforcing it justifies any action, even breaking the law! Okay, Judy doesn't do it for the law, she does it to protect people. But... I guess Nick's not worth protecting from blackmail. Why is it that when cops in movies break laws to see justice done they almost always break the laws that are supposed to protect regular people?

[@DeathxStrike18]

@@nichtschwert3307 well she also colludes with the mob a sign of a crooked cop and sits by allowing death threat of a citizen even if a shady character.

[@nichtschwert3307]

@@DeathxStrike18 Yeah, this movie's ethics are wild lol

[@Arkylie]

While I generally appreciate your take on this (as well as the similar take from the video that pointed this video out to me), I think the inherent biological differences between predators and prey might actually work as a *feature* of Zootopia, more than a bug. Along these lines: "What part of the inherent biological differences makes this divide inevitable? These characters have strong biological differences and yet are capable of bypassing their biological history and mastering their own instincts and getting along in a civilized world. They can do this because they are self-aware beings with free will, and not unthinking animals. Trying to claim that people are *no more than* their biological natures is deeply flawed, and ignores some key factors that are shared amongst all humans." I liken this to the "boys will be boys" argument: Statistically, men are stronger than women and have a lot of testosterone that, as I understand it, makes them more prone to aggressive behavior, while women are more prone to appeasing behavior. But that doesn't mean that men *must* act aggressive or that women *must* act appeasing. It doesn't mean that 100% of men are stronger (or more aggressive) than 100% of women. It doesn't mean that men deserve more X or women deserve more Y purely on account of their biology. It certainly doesn't mean that if a man rapes a woman, we must let him off the hook because "she dressed provocatively and it riled up his instincts and he couldn't help himself." No. We are self-aware creatures with free will and the ability to overcome our own instincts, and that means that we must be held accountable for our behavior as it impacts other people. Biology exists and is a factor but it is not an excuse. And to say "boys will be boys" is patronizing, as though men cannot possibly be expected to behave in a civilized manner. So that tiger may have the physical capability of causing harm, but that doesn't mean that he *must* cause harm or that it is more reasonable to fear him (in the world that Zootopia presents). I mean, IRL, most adults are physically capable of killing small children, and there are plenty of large, musclebound men (and a few large, musclebound women) who could pose a severe threat to the average couchbound college student, but, for the most part, we expect these people to not utilize their physical attributes to hurt other people, even though they *could* do so if they wanted to. We've put various controls in place to reduce the chance of this happening (consequences for harming other people). So I don't think that tiger vs. bunny scene was quite as off the mark as you make it sound: That tiger is no more likely to harm the bunny than he was yesterday when she sat next to him on the same bus and didn't think twice about it. Only her perspective has shifted. Her perspective is no longer rational, because there are many reasons that a predator would avoid indulging in predatory behavior. One thing that Zootopia seems to assert is that we're all raised with prejudiced attitudes of one sort or another, and we all make mistakes about how to treat other people, *but* that we can choose to overcome these shortcomings and to take a different path, treating each other in fairness regardless of any actual distinctions between us. This, to me, seems like a quite positive message, and one that runs counter to the idea that people of a certain group are predetermined to act in a certain way because of their biology.

[@nichtschwert3307]

That is quite transparently what Zootopia is going for and I do agree with that message. Yes, even if humans were born that different, we should still all be treated fairly and work together and all that good stuff. But that still doesn't change how the movie depicts species as an allegory for race and gender. I'm certainly not an expert on effects of hormones on the psyche, but most of the differences between men and women can be explained in large part with different socialisation. AMAB people are generally given a lot more leeway for aggressive, competitive behavior than AFAB people, simply because aggression is considered normal for boys and abnormal for girls. Innate, in-born differences as between species in Zootopia only exist in humans with regards to disability, but Zootopia isn't really interested in that particular topic at all. They are accidentally using the language of reactionary propaganda to try and make a progressive point and it muddles the whole thing. In short, the message that we should be accepting even of people vastly different to ourselves is a good one, but it's not really applicable to the topics they want to apply it to and the topics they are trying to raise awareness of are quite severely mishandled. But in the end, it's not bad enough to make the movie read as anything but a passionate (if a bit milquetoast liberal) affirmation of tolerance and acceptance. It's just kind of a mess, y'know?

[@comradeerik]

@@nichtschwert3307 I think that Zootopia is a bad allegory for racism because it doesn't really know what its doing. "treat people the same even if they are significantly stronger than you" doesn't seem to be the theme that the movie is going for, and if it is, I can't really tell what real world group it's meant to be applicable to. Race is socially constructed, and a lot of racist ideas have been about certain groups being "naturally stronger" or "weaker" than another when that is pure pseudoscience. The gender angle doesn't seem to be the one thats applicable either, because while gender identity isnt a social construct, gender roles are. And even then, being AMAB or AFAB kinda doesn't mean anything about a person, I mean I'm a trans man and was raised the same as any other guy, so it's impossible to draw a line and say that men have a significant advantage over women or anything. I get the thing about disability but as you said, the movie doesn't touch on that at all. And I mean, not assuming that someone is out to get you because the appear stronger isn't a bad message, but shouldn't be thrown into a film that's about race in a way that's so confusing. Because portraying people of colour (my guess is that it's black people that they're specifically trying to code predators as but I might be wrong) as having a "biological upper hand" is inherently flawed. Racists have been thinking that kind of thing for years, no need to add fuel to the fire. So yeh I agree with you, good video, and I definitely think they should be more careful when trying to make a movie about a topic like this.

[@A3319]

I think there is a disconnect due to Maus depicting people and Zootopia mainly trying to depict a society of different species. Converting it to the Maus framework would probably drastically change what Zootopia is. But I agree with the idea that Zootopia's allegory could have been better handled

[@jobantwisp6060]

really appreciated what you're doing,great stuff, subscribing nd spending some time in your library

[@hayleygullett]

Thanks for the captions!!

[@kapitankapital6580]

I've watched a couple of these videos about the messages in Zootopia regarding race, and in particular the point about different races in humans not being comparable to different species in animals reminds me of a conversation online I once had. In it, a woman was explaining why she tends to be unreasonably defensive when alone with a strange man (by which I mean a man she doesn't know, rather than one who is abnormal in some way). It comes, she says, from the fear that this is a potential rape scenario, and that if the man did try to overpower her, then there would be little she could do about it. Now obviously that is irrational, and arguably an instance of misandry. This isn't a condemnation of the woman for thinking that way, btw, it's just an interesting observation. Despite the fact that the chance that a rape, or for that matter any sort of physical assault, would happen in that scenario are near zero, she was afraid anyway. I'm reminded of this when I look at the scene of the tiger on the train. Whilst the difference between men and women is nowhere near as extreme as that, that fear, that violence could happen, and that if it did there would be little they could do, is a very real thing that happens in real life. This is why I don't think it's as problematic as you're suggesting here. The reality is that a man (or woman) could quite easily kill you in public, especially if they are carrying a gun or knife. In Zootopia, prey are afraid of predators because of the sensationalised stories of a handful of attacks that are not, and the movie makes this very explicit, something inherent to predators. In a similar way, a lot of modern racial prejudices, especially the ones held by people who are not committed racists, function like this; the irrational fear of a particular group due to the media focus on a handful of isolated cases means that everybody who happens to be lumped into that social group is judged by those not in that group to be likely to commit the action which, whilst certainly possible, is incredibly unlikely. I think Zootopia actually gives quite a nuanced view of modern racism, or at least one aspect of modern racism.

[@wannabehistorian371]

Thank you! It’s sad that Nichtshwert didn’t seem to see this. I think that this video and Jack Saint’s analysis misses out on the whole “subconscious racism” thing and just thinks of it in terms of deliberate discrimination.

[@kenkakuknight]

I think this argument falls flat because sexual dimorphism is a true biological phenomena, where human males are often significantly stronger than human females. However, race is a completely social construct that has no bearing on biology or physiology. Sexual dimorphism is real. Race-realism is not.

[@Tacom4ster]

Wait for Breadtuber Jack Lacking do his ACAB series on Zootopia

[@nichtschwert3307]

Oh yeah I bet that'll be a treat.

[@robinv.3632]

I knew the movie mainly from english You Tube where everyone called it Zootopia. A week ago I finally purchased a DVD of the film and aked my girlfriend if we should watch the movie together, she agreed but mentioned it was called Zoomania pointing on the cover of the DVD. I was really confused

[@rainyfeathers9148]

'This is where the shit gets dark... hope you're ready for this' Ready👀🍿

[@SEGAmastergirl]

I'd like to hear your opinion on Beastars.

[@nichtschwert3307]

I haven't seen/read it, but it looks like I definitely should.

[@RosheenQuynh]

12:10 Isn't the scene here just showing how the fear is setting in? Maybe it's just me

[@dolosusumbra6455]

I feel as though the analysis of the subway scene in Zootopia was perhaps a bit off. I believe that the use of a tiger in particular was more a choice of heavy juxtaposition rather than a particular analysis of his actual possible threat level. That is, the meekest creature they've portrayed by the most threatening creature; i feel it's meant more to say that while he may be inherently more threatening, his species doesn't necessarily preclude his actions. If they wanted to be more on the nose about predator vs prey they could have use a fox instead and really brought the metaphor home for the main cast, but it's more about making it obvious. I think it's more about that the mother draws suspicion based on prejudices rather than reason, driven home by the fact that he's more clean cut and reserved without any hint of a threatening demeanor, and is so far removed from that thinking as to not even notice her apprehension. I myself and not a particularly big guy, and can think of hundreds of guys who could beat the stuffing out of me, but that doesn't mean I should be afraid of anyone who's bigger than me. I feel the racism allegory is more pointed at the idea that she suspects him as being more violent on the basis of him being a predator. Comparatively a hippo or rhino could have sat in that spot and I'd doubt the reaction would be the same based on the predator/prey for racism allegory. It's not about the ability of someone to harm you, it's about intent. After all, that's the point of carrying pepper spray or knifes or the like for self defense; that although you may not be as strong as you attacker, you can defend yourself. This is also the very reason why someone carrying a knife with the intent to harm someone, even if they're bigger than them, carries the same if opposite weight. I'm sure many people have seen, or maybe even have felt, that same fear drawn from prejudices, like the mother drawing in her child, someone clutching their bag, crossing to the other side of the street when someone is walking toward them, or locking their cars due to being in a perceived "side of town." I do agree with the inherent issue of portraying varying ethnicitys as predators (especially because it precludes the idea that those races have historically been violent and people were right in their thinking, but things are just better now that they "behave" if you read too far into the allegory, or even worse if that's what was meant,) however in this case I feel it maybe the best way to express that previous traits of violence projected upon groups are/can be wrong, especially with the films inclusion of exclusion based on prejudices in the form of Nick's back story, including a role reversal based on those very same prejudices.

[@nichtschwert3307]

Thank you for your very elaborate thoughts, I really appreciate you taking the time! What bugs me about the train scene is specifically the fact that you could have swapped the bunnies out for any other bunnies in the world and swapped the tiger out for any other tiger in the world and it would still look the same. Tigers are inherently bigger and stronger and more dangerous than bunnies in that situation. If this were a scene between not rabbits and a tiger but white people and a black guy (which this is transparently trying to be an allegory for), you could swap out the white people for different white people and the black person for a different black person and have the scene feel vastly different. Because the inherent differences between human races are miniscule and the inherent differences between animal species are very vast. I do however see your point. If you swapped the Tiger not for another Tiger, but, yeah, a fox or something and the bunnies for hippos, that scene would have been kind of strange and perhaps comical. Since it's not specifically tigers who are being discriminated against, but predators in general, I can see how you could read it as a lot less objectionable than i did. I still think, though, that the scene presents a useful microcosm of my issues with the allegory. Because they used this shot as part of a montage supposed to depict people unreasonably panicking about a perfectly harmless minority but the shot makes that fear look way more understandable, more justifiable than it should.

[@tatters8236]

Here's a story of mine, originally posted to Reddit a while back under the title "A Sea Bound Interlude" Our GM (Joe) was obsessed with romance subplots and kept trying to force them on us. He tried to convince me to pair up my Aasimar Pirate who hated everyone with a futa deep gnome npc who never even showed up in the campaign to my knowledge, it took several tries to get him to back off. It didn't become horrifying until a friend from out of town joined us for a couple of sessions with a Feykin (half fey half human, a homebrew I made and that Joe approved) Sorcerer named Christopher Aspenberry. Chris Aspen, as he introduced himself, was 10 years old, since that's the age where Feykin stop growing and the friend chose the Feykin specificly so he could play a child character, the ship's (very high level) NPC bard decided that Chris was the perfect one to MAGICALLY CHARM INTO HAVING SEX WITH HER with heavy implications that BDSM was involved. Chris's player, who I should note is not sexually attracted to anyone and is the only member of my group who isn't into porn of any kind, took this better than the rest of us would. So, yeah, a literal child of a race that never fully grows up was magically suduced and forced into hardcore sex with an NPC who never showed up before or after.

[@nichtschwert3307]

That is indeed a pretty messed up story. I'm sorry you had to go through that. Some people just have absolutely no regard for the boundaries of people they play games with. I hope you've gotten out of that group and found better people to play with. Now, please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm kind of wondering why you're leaving this as a comment under this video. It's not a problem or anything. I just don't get it and would like to understand. Also, as a small side note: Please don't use the word "futa" around here. I and some of my usual audience are transgender and some of my audience are intersex and the term comes with a lot of fetishy baggage.

[@rafeverao4105]

I can't concentrate on the video content when there's this tiny pink/red bird sitting on the screen, good grief, it's a literal borb.

[@impossibleadventurepublish3302]

Loved this! Look forward to more from you

[@markusnavergard2387]

Zootopoia has no none-mammal animals- whats up with that? why am i denied my reptiles?

[@SnoFitzroy]

Because they think it would be impossible to make the same allegory from the bunny/tiger subway scene with a bunny and a frog

[@simonj3413]

According to the creators, birds and reptiles in the same universe might have separate cities

[@redactedredacted6656]

Why are birds segregated from society ? I get why serpents would want their own city because they would probably need rooms with heat lamps or something (I'm not a serpent and scalieI expert) .But where are the birds? I want anthropomorphic birds in clothes damn it !

[@INTCUWUSIUA]

You could do a lot of interesting stuff by taking inspiration from real world animals and how they relate to one another, but the more you do that the more untenable the allegory becomes and at a certain point it turns into speculative biology. Like in Zootopia you only have the predator/prey dynamic, but in real life you have different classes of prey and predator at various trophic levels and you don't just have carnivores and herbivores but omnivores too that complicate things even more. But if you took all that into account it wouldn't be a story about people anymore, it'd be a sci-fi story about an alien society just with an animal theme.

[@elwynbrooks9240]

Great comparison. Well done!

[@julphines]

If anyone is interested, War Without Mercy by John Dower shows how both the US and Japan defined each other on racial/racist terms during WWII. This is a great video, you have a great argument style. Also I love the bird.

[@wolftamer5463]

I'm pretty sure that the different animals in "Zootopia" weren't meant to specifically correlate to any real life groups. It's a tale about prejudice in general, not anything about race.

[@olserknam]

I'd argue the problem in Zootopia is at least somewhat systemic. Unlike in, say, Monsters Inc., where all the shortcomings of the company are the fault of the single individual, here, while the "single individual" fallacy is still strong, the prejudice has clearly existed in the society even before Bellweather started her conspiracy. The movie still implies that there needs to be a conscious effort made on the people's side to stop it.

[@blaster23456]

This brings up a good question. If predators are an allegory for minorities, what would scavengers be?

[@vazak11]

Excellent insights!

[@mrbubbies_]

Subscribed off the human equation cd cameo alone

[@theilliad4298]

Zootopia shouldve went super dark and applied the premise from " The Promise Neverland"

[@arthursemeghinigallo3336]

Or beastars one.

[@maddenboseroy4074]

I think the ironic brilliance of Zootopia is that it makes you forget all of the flaws in its metaphor: see "Through Deaf Eyes" and kzbin.info/www/bejne/i3ymcpKCebR_fdE

[@matheus5230]

What do you think about how Disney's The Fox And The Hound deals with themes of prejudice?

[@bugjams]

Go read/watch Beastars. It's Zootopia but with a much grittier tone and more insightful messages.

[@Ghostkidparadise]

Yooo who made those comics at 11:50? I just want to talk...

[@nichtschwert3307]

Some fascist made them. I don't really wanna link to any of their shit here. I'm sure with a bit of effort you can find them but why would you want to? Don't dignify that crap with your time. There are good, non-fascist comics out there, too.

[@ThePiachu]

Very nice video!

[@BlackReshiram]

die tatsache dass sie es nötig fanden den film in zoomania umzubenennen ist echt vielsagend

[@nichtschwert3307]

Echt? Inwiefern? Ich hab nie so richtig begriffen wieso.

[@BobbinRobbin777]

0:51 this is like moana / vaiana all over again