Zootopia & Elemental: Disney Pixar’s Failed Thought Experiment

[@MrFranArco]

I would say that it is more difficult to translate zootopia's society to our notion of racism. In zootopia the carnivores suffer from prejudice from the herbivores about their apparent natural violence, but at the same time they hold powerful positions in their society, like the police, which is almost exclusive for carnivores. There is some kind of "bidirectional racism". On the other hand, in elementals, water and fire elements are direct translations of the racism in our socities, but as you explained, that metaphor doesn't work at all.

[@hassanalkhalaf1115]

Predators may be sometimes shown in powerful positions but even then the universe of Zootopia shows us that they face prejudice. Officer Clawhauser lost his position and was transfered to somewhere else because the police didn't want the face of a cheetah to be their representat. If you take a look at all of the police officers in Zootopia you'll see that all of them are just larger herbivores instead of carnivores. Elephants, Hippos, Rhinos, buffalos and only a single wolf.

[@grey_f98]

I agree. Zootopia isn't trying to be a one-to-one analogy to real world racism. It's its own internally logical world and it's commentary is on racial bias as a general concept, and not as black people vs white people. Even though it borrows concepts from American racial history, you have to remember the characters aren't supposed to be humans, they're sentient animals and have their own lore.

[@dudalina9223]

23:55 You might not have noticed this, the characters in Zootopia aren't just sentient human-like animals, they're sentient human-like mammals. It can be presumed that the carnivores in this universe might eat meat, but from things like birds or fish

[@lordknightalex]

yeah a lot of allegories used to talk about social issues end up falling flat the moment they have it so there is an actually rational reason for that prejudice, fantasy racism tends to end up creating a world where phrenology is real rather than actually making a valid point on anti-racism, zootopia and elemental could be the contenders for the prime examples if blight (that one netflix movie w will smith) didn't exist

[@eduardopantoja9115]

I'll be honest that's how I always feel about the X-men. Just think about it, if there was a random genetic gene that can make someone move stuff with their mind, cause explosions, become a reality warper, control the weather at any level, turn into monster, and ect. I honestly wouldn't blame humanity in creating weapons to take out mutants because some of their powers can actually kill hundreds of people if they aren't careful. This is why I don't like people using super natural creatures or super powered humans as an allegory to racism because there's an actual lethal threat when they simply exist. This only works if everyone is super-powered to a certain degree or if the oppressors are the super powered humans while the human like race is the minority.

[@shawnbay2211]

i love ur reading of elemental as a better allegory 4 disability. i thought the plot totally made sense as a commentary 4 something, just not race. imo, it wouldve been a MUCH more interesting & profound movie had it been about disability. bc i NEVER had difficulty with the design of society bc im asian, but i did have difficulty with it bc im neurodiverse. it is never an idea expressed in a mainstream animation & that makes me so mad bc its not an idea kids really have an idea of. & thats including overt disabilities. we r srsly unaware how society is not designed 2 accomodate certain ppl, & elemental 100% showed that beautifully.

[@kori6706]

I never liked the whole thing with Elemental, since as living fire they quite literally, are a hazard. They’re saying that other races…are literal hazards. Of course you wouldn’t want fire in a greenhouse, that’s just how that works. It’s like being upset you can’t play with fireworks in a library. It’s just…the best way to handle those situations.

[@gabrielleduplessis7388]

Water is a hazard too. If not controlled, they can flood everything. They even destroy fire which sucks for the fire people. Wind. Strong winds (like hurricane ones) can do just as much damage. My point is every element that is not (lack of a better term) controlled can do immense damage, but no, only the fire people are the dangerous ones. Sorry for sounding rude. I do agree with your points and I know I am over analyzing this, but that is how I feel. So again, do agree this falls flat because it does not explore the strong forces that the other elements had.

[@ROBLOX-1gv7ej2j]

Hollywood baby is better

[@donotdisrupt9753]

@@gabrielleduplessis7388a point to be made though is that although every element when uncontrolled can be hazardous, fire even when controlled still remains hazardous. I think your point is valid but I guess from the original commenters perspective what they might be trying to say is that, It’s much more risky for all controlled elements in the space ONCE even controlled fire is introduced even if this includes the fire people themselves as without the fire element all elements are able to co-exist without issue or overt hazard as they have for centuries barring very specific ( and unlikely ) situations. On a basic chemical level fire cannot exist alongside other elements without some form of destruction of one or the other occurring so the metaphor doesn’t work. But these are just my thoughts🙃

[@icecreamhero2375]

In Zootpia they explained that the animals evolved so that they don't eat each other anymore. Elemental is just poorly written.

[@TheDen-ec9xe]

And ? It's still terribly written and thought out.

[@icecreamhero2375]

@@TheDen-ec9xe No, it's not if it's explained in the movie. Animals do evolve in real life so it's grounded in some realism. If the plot gives a satisfying explanation for their current situation it's good writing.

[@TheDen-ec9xe]

@@icecreamhero2375 That's not the point (and even then, that's not how evolution works, otherwise we would have proof of dinosaurs societies and technologies. Get real). The plot is politicized trash, the racism juxtaposition is lazy and terrible, and Judy is literally a crooked cop. You wouldn't know good writing even when it was in front of you.

[@Alexander_Kale]

That is not how evolution works. In order for a predator to evolve away the need to eat meat, that society would have to be millions of years old. On top of that, we SEE lions and foxes and bears and panthers, canines and all. They very clearly still have their fangs and their claws. If they HAD evolved to no longer eat meat, they would not still have a predators set of teeth. It is a societal change, not a biological one, which is the reason why the comparison fails. There are factual differences of great consequence between the different zootopia "races", something that is it the case between the different HUMAN "races" in reality. I mean, just look at the scene of Judy stepping off the train, which reveals that there is a separate compartment for small animals. A compartment that would be too small for a bear policeman to enter, for example.

[@TheDen-ec9xe]

@@icecreamhero2375 You obviously don't know the first thing about evolution, if you think animals forming a society where they magically swear not to eat each other is "realistic". And no, the plot does not give a satisfying explanation.

[@PhantomPhera]

I hate the whole "Dude chill it's made for kids don't look too much into it" Never mind the fact the movie itself is about serious issues like racism. No what they mean by that comment is that they don't want to hear the criticisms of the movies not handling the racism message very well and how that would reflect on the people who didn't want to have that discussion. People don't mind talking about complex themes in animation/ more often children's animation when it comes to praise but when it comes to examining the themes in terms of how they may faulter all of a sudden those people say "It's a kids show chill" because criticism of anything is constantly seen as something bad especially if people like said thing. That's very evident in anything that has to do with the struggles of people of color and other marginalized people.

[@bepstein111]

Totally agree with your take that kids don't need to be sheltered from honest, occasionally painful conversations about race. Being able to participate in difficult conversations honestly and truthfully is how we improve as people, and that skill needs to be learned early on, and then reinforced over and over and over. As a youth group advisor, some of the most open, honest, eye-opening, and educational (for me) conversations I've had have been with students.

[@AndelinaMarie]

Tbh I don't think it has anything to do with what a kid could handle. It's all Abt the parents who r too scared to formally educate their kids on history tht has now bled into our current lives. Bc pretty sure my father(who is the racist in my family) would happily let my baby brother watch both of these movies bc he's too unaware of the grander scheme of the movies. He just see's a bunch of cartoons rather than the story. Makes sense tho bc uh, psychology. Until u put the physical being in which they hate, in their face, they never catch on. So yea, ignorance is bliss

[@Kelps_K]

Hi Tronn. Interesting views on these pixar movies. I agree that "children's movies" and child-targeted media should be held to the same analytical standard as adult media, especially when it pertains to social issues. I caught on regarding the racial undertones /sub-context of Zootopia when re-watching it as an adult, but I didn't consider how problematic it was that they used actual animals and animals nature to prove human prejudice, when the two subjects are entirely separate and can't be merged as one sole issue even for fictions sake. (if that makes sense?) I enjoyed your thoughts and analysis and I'm happy to have found your channel :)

[@eatatjoe]

I feel like Cats Don't Dance is still the one exception to the "animal racism" quagmire and its only considered that because it deals with less bluntly obvious racism forms.

[@the_toastedghost]

Cats don't dance for ever

[@80sDisneyFan]

One of the most GOATed movies of all time. Also you forgot Follow That Bird

[@Theravingranter]

It makes more sense because the animals coexist with humans, and the animals are supposed to be stand ins for people of color, in my mind primarily black. Despite Sawyer being a white cat even as a child my mind saw her as black woman, one of the only times that my mind associated race to a non raced animal. This was because there was a heavy emphasis on the animals playing and singing jazz music, all the humans were white, and that statistically back then a person of color was lucky to even have a bit part in a film. It can be easily read as an analogy for racism, since people of color were treated like performing animals back then, and the little number they do in the alley is reminiscent of underground clubs for colored people where they could freely play music and hang out. Also the bus driver literally says the animals should go back to the farm where they belong and we’re crazy for believing they could make it in show biz, which is a huge indicator that the humans are racist, Or species-ist. The movie is about overcoming prejudice and following your dreams in a world that doesn’t believe in you. It’s criminally under rated.

[@jonasholm-mw5bn]

It’s just never good when the difference is a distinct physical difference. Like, being on fire or being half the size of everyone else. Sure, you have something like Chinatown, but that’s more how people thought about the people who were going to live there and not something they needed to live. It might have been more interesting to see the history of small town or who built the first train with space for every size. They just are different, rather than just looking different. A kind of weird thing in these kinds of movies is also that the couple is always the first. Everyone before the main characters just stuck to themselves. Even when there’s only four different elements then there have never been a couple like the main characters before. School must also be really awkward in something like Zootopia. When we had sex education, we were split up in boys and girls for a bit. What do you do if you have seven different species in a class and you’re some eight different species.

[@phillinsogood]

This was such a great analysis. Zootopia and Elemental are decent films I personally would’ve loved for them to make race based films on actual humans rather than elements or animals but I get it it’s just a movie. Also justice for the puzzle place🙌🏽

[@TheDen-ec9xe]

One is overrated garbage, the other is mediocre.

[@TheDen-ec9xe]

@USANATV2007 In the exact order as the OP said

[@Theravingranter]

Puzzle Place was out here saying all sorts of facts: like how smart people are in their native language and how hard it is to be bilingual but only fluent in your cultural language and how we shouldn’t mock those struggling to learn English. Also they had an episode where they said it’s okay for men to wear dresses and honestly? We Stan.

[@TheDen-ec9xe]

@USANATV2007 Cry some more, they're both politicized trash

[@jonasholm-mw5bn]

It would maybe have been better if the hunting thing in zootopia was seen as some kind of conspiracy theory or something like “alpha males”

[@ROBLOX-1gv7ej2j]

Zootopia trash Hollywood is better

[@shawnbay2211]

as u said, racism allegories need it 2b fundamentally equal or harmless 4 coexistence. i think 1 that would work is My Little Pony's latest continuity. the "races" r all types of ponies that can have offspring with each other. i even think their inclusion of other species was also fine bc none of them r inherently more powerful than the other. im ambivalent about its excution but it absolutely should theoretically work 2 portray race relations.

[@sashhugh]

My only question is,, why didn’t they depict Prey as minority groups? It would’ve made sense with the backstory of predators killing prey and predators trying to make up for what they’ve done in the past despite bias still running rampant in the city and it would better explain power dynamics. ADDITIONALLY Elementals would’ve made more sense if they weren’t trying to force heteronormativity down our throats, why could’ve they have just been friends and worked on implementing more policies to make the city more accessible for fire people??

[@eway44]

The romance is one of the things I like about Elemental because it was done well, so if Elemental was to get a rewrite I wouldn't get rid of that. But they should try to change the infrastructure to be more accommodating to Fire people

[@inayah115]

I faced my first racist experience (that I remember) in primary school. I always understood that I was different and my parents made that a point to teach me that the world may see us like this. Children of colour always know at a very young age so I don't see why they wouldn't see it as too mature unless the majority are just never taught. Which that seems to be the case

[@derickd6150]

I disagree with the part at 24:23. You say that Nick threatening her and Judy feeling scared is different because historically, predators have hurt prey. Whereas when a white cop stops a black person, they have no reason to be scared. And if one were to say something dumb like, well perhaps the cop has seen a lot more crime commited by people of color and so in their mind, they have a historical reason to be worried, you would reply with some combination of patrolling specific areas, poverty skewing statistics and their own personal history not being reflective of actual history (as if this is completely obvious and easy to determine for all people all the time). This is where I disagree that what Judy feels is any different to what the cop feels. Both have been told specific things and seen specific things (even though the system itself is entirely to blame) and no "actual" reason to be worried ("actual" in the sense that only some completely neutral observing higher being could know), they do both have "reason" to be worried. I don't see how this part fails to capture the right message. The idea of "actual" reason changes depending on who already agrees with you. If you're a conservative, your "actual" reality is very different to a liberal. I don't think one should get to speak about any of them knowing the "actual" truth. I believe they each think the best things they can think given their past experiences and the scene works well because it is a simple, child targeted movie which allows US to become the higher dimensional observant beings who know the "actual" situation. This then reflect how the people involved being limited by their own experience made them get it wrong. Finally, this highlights that the system itself needs to change, to then change the minds of the people, etc. Which I assume is a message you would be happy with. Otherwise it was a good video which I enjoyed :)

[@ishy6875]

I suggest considering a career in politics. Your proficiency in communicating without conveying any substantial information is unparalleled. However, to fully support this argument, one must adopt an ahistorical perspective that disregards the roots of law enforcement and the prevalence of misconduct and impropriety even half a century ago. It is important to note that prey is a classification of animal, while a police officer is an elected profession, and that reason in itself is why the movie does not work. Facts don't care about your feelings, and you can't disagree with empirical evidence.

[@derickd6150]

@@ishy6875 this is truly a comment where someone just read what they expected to read. I study physics. I went out of my way to quote all the things someone who studies politics might argue, but I point out why I don't think it applies in this case. In doing so I saved at least 5 steps of back and forth. You and I would probably get along as we both feel the exact same way about politics, but in this case you saw someone making an argument and just had to give your canned response

[@grey_f98]

It was not a good video at all. Instead of engaging with the movie's own logic, worldbuilding or intention, he's just comparing it to our real world and saying "they don't match 100%, so zootopia is bad." This is dumb analysis, I feel like Zootopia's strength is that it has it's own races and is not just imitating black and white people.

[@stargazing_4332]

i liked elemental and i adored zootopia, i think the movies were very well done and they were so wholesome

[@enokua5466]

Understandable but in those movies it logically makes Sense why groups are distant. If it was a movies about Cats for example and different races of Cat it would be more Close to reality cause except for their fur and other phenotype they are all still Cats yk

[@youcansave15ormoreoncarins75]

​@@enokua5466thing is though breeds exhibit different personalities and temperaments, while races don't

[@ROBLOX-1gv7ej2j]

Both trash Hollywood is better

[@phillinsogood]

The most frustrating thing about Elemental to me was how they never explained how the Cloud lady was the villain breaking the glass wall. They never showed her getting caught or why she was doing that

[@VictoryReviews]

She was the villain? I thought she just checked the studyness

[@phillinsogood]

@@VictoryReviews well they made it seem like she was a villain.

[@ROBLOX-1gv7ej2j]

Elemental is trash Hollywood is better in everway

[@Lexi_Zone]

Agreed on all fronts! Have you seen Beastars by any chance? It's not perfect either--I don't think something that substitutes animals for marginalized identities even can be--but it's definitely a different approach to these two. I felt like the predator/prey dynamic in Beastars felt more like a gender divide than a race one, but like Zootopia, I don't think it's supposed to be anything specific and can be looked at through various lenses.

[@shiningstone6771]

Elemental is emotionally connected with me, it's supportive, fun and main thing is that it has no Villain, the storyline with villain twists are always boring and seen in most movies which is why I prefer Elemental over Zootopia, Moreover Elemental is based on the director's real life experience... I know the whole plot in Elemental just splitted into two different stories and I understood that it's a story about Elements can mix.

[@Robohead-z6z]

How about Siberian tigers vs bengal tigers for race allogories?

[@MsDragontooth]

a lot of zootopia better works for men and women stereotypes. Also the problem with both movies os that both fire and predators are both inherently more dangerous so the stereotypes are kinda warranted

[@samuels.2411]

2:45 i find it hilarious that the zootopia wants to be against prejudice and racism but their main characters are the clichee of bias itself, an hopefully naive bunny and an trickster fox. i mean come on! why make a movie against stereotypes and for multiculti when you push your main leads in the worst clichees?! would be great if nick would have been the naive hopefull cop and judy hops being the con artist an both of them learn to see the world a little bit less narrow. instead we get clichee after clichee.

[@itsgrace1163]

I feel that that wasn’t Nick at all it was just a front that he put up to protect himself and he conforms throughout the movie he lets his true self show

[@JJ_6036]

Judy had to be prey for it to be interesting. You're ignoring the context of the plot.

[@milaaqui]

Yeah, maybe fantasy stories shouldn't be read as a perfect parallel to human society, just entertainment and, hopefully, healthy food for thought.

[@dgc1570]

Yo! Shout out to Puzzle ace! It was absolutely ond of my childhood favorites

[@CuriouslyCute]

Youve got a point. There was a real reason for the issues in those movies, whereas the problems theyre trying to teach about dont, and they had to sidestep the issues in ways that dont really work in real life.

[@GalaxyLimeBridge]

Lol, I love how people say the fire animation in Elemental is amazing, because it's the reason why I cant watch the movie. That specific animation makes me physically sick. I still listened to it though, the story is way to basic.

[@ROBLOX-1gv7ej2j]

Elemento is horrible like zootopia shit Hollywood is better

[@samuels.2411]

21:22 dafuq? wade just respawned?! if this is a thing in this world its HUGE!

[@theunjaided]

The first thing I noticed ab Elemental was the fire people, at least the main family, are supposed to be Asian. Respectfully, because its based on the directors life, but denying its about race or has nods towards the issue of racism/ xenophobia is kind of a cop out. The movie overall seemed to jumble other issues along with those like general bigotry, interacial relationships, etc. where it shouldve just focused on one to get the point across to kids.

[@Stuffssorandom]

Well said. Love the analysis

[@Jrookus]

I always felt elemental was a better story about the weight of familial expectations in Asian coded environments with racism as a background element than a story about racism. It never really felt about racism, the racism just felt shoehorned in

[@grey_f98]

Zootopia isn't trying to be a one-to-one analogy to real world racism. It's its own internally logical world and it's commentary is on racial bias as a general concept, and not as black vs white, even though it borrows concepts from American racial history.

[@fuhgetabatit1051]

I just love these movies. Period. I’m taking them to my grave ✌🏻

[@TheDen-ec9xe]

Then start digging, they're complete trash.

[@saintsheepy6682]

Both Beastars and Sea Prince and the Fire Child are these films done correctly if you ask me.

[@BMoney8600]

I liked Elemental.

[@Robohead-z6z]

I think the predatory animals eat non sapient animals.

[@saramcmurtrie3955]

Elemental would be better if it was a movie about disabilities.

[@ishy6875]

great video

[@kaledogg_68]

W underrated Vid

[@popejpv]

Predator and prey Water and fire Mobile infantry and fleet

[@Starboard528]

I cannot understand the way you talk.

[@blinkowarner3117]

YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!