Zweihander - Montante (Greatsword) Sparring - Nick (AHF) vs Jordan (AOS)

These swords go by many names, Zweihander, Schlachtschwert, Spadone, Montante etc, but in English are today commonly called Greatswords. All terms for the family of massive two handed swords, the largest ever used in Europe, and typically ranging between 5' to 7' long. Jordan is using a Black Fencer v4 Montante synthetic, and Nick a custom version of the Black Fencer Flamberge model made to the same length as the V4 Montante. Therefore these training swords are near identical in spec, at 162cm long, 2.2kg total weight, and within a completely realistic specs for this size of montante or greatsword. Hence they are used with care and control as they can generate a lot of force. Nick Thomas of the Academy of Historical Fencing is in the red jacket, and Jordan Mock of the Academy of Steel in black.
This was filmed at the Gathering of Wolves event, 2023, organised by the Academy of Steel. Also worth noting that this was the very last sparring bout of a very busy two day event when fatigue is really setting in for all.

[@leftwardglobe1643]

As we can see: period inspired floofy pants do, indeed, provide a significant bonus to hit chance while wielding greatswords.

[@bondvagabond42]

I think they are called puffling pants, hah

[@_ariosto1519]

I thought the fluffy was to hide where the legs are, but your argument holds water 🧐

[@brandonguevara7362]

Bro has a bigger hit box

[@tatumergo3931]

In any case you would have been wearing a cock-piece, probably made out of leather covered in cloth and reinforced with baleen...

[@Pamjamelia]

It's funny to me how media always shows greatswords as being brutish, crude weapons. And yet they look so elegant in motion here. Obviously you're tired, and holding back a bit to avoid clattering each other, but still. I haven't done any HEMA in *ages* so I have to wonder what it's actually like to fight with these things, based on what I know about longsword (which, even then, isn't that much but I learned a good chunk of the fundamentals at least!)

[@musicfunlax1224]

Think in a real fight with all the steel armor and swords it would look quite different. Hitting whouldn't it be done with more force and much be more brutish trying to unbalance the opponent? And to find vulnerable spots for stabbing..

[@Pamjamelia]

@@musicfunlax1224 The main thing, of course, would be that you wouldn't be holding back for your opponent's safety. I wager you don't need to swing these things too hard to cause a lot of damage, even with armour because of all that blunt force. You don't want to swing something like that too hard that you lose your own balance, of course. I'm mostly just guessing here, hah!

[@DerAptrgangr]

​@@musicfunlax1224 these aren't particularly ideal for heavily armored enemies. The blade won't cut through steel armor. I think with two fully armored Doppelsöldner you'd see the opponents trying to close, and use the parierhoken as an impromptu pick, or half-swording to use it more like a spear. Additionally, greatswords work best when kept in motion. You see a lot of longsword technique with these lighter replicants. You don't need to swing a greatsword as hard as you can, but to try to keep it in motion. They are very heavy so starting/stopping takes more effort.

[@faizyuki]

​@@DerAptrgangrBut wouldn't these great swords still do significant damage to heavily armored opponents? I know swords really aren't meant for heavily armored opponent. Mace and other blunt weapons are meant for that. And I know swords can't cut through metal armor. But wouldn't these greatsword can still deal enough blunt force against heavy armor opponent? It's still a long metal stick in a way. I would imagine there could be a broken bone or two if it hits your arm or something since you have more momentum each swing. Or would that never happen in a heavily armored 1v1 between greatsword wielders?

[@DerAptrgangr]

@@faizyuki let me be clear, you can generate a substantial amount of force behind a greatsword, and I don't want to get hit with one, regardless of what armor I'm wearing. 😂 There's definitely the possibility of causing injury or damage despite armor for sure. Or even just knocking your opponent down, which is obviously very advantageous. The biggest issue is that a glancing or insufficient blow could be entirely negated. And while that's true for any weapon, with the size and weight of a greatsword, it adds extra risk to a failed powerful swing. Which is why, in that situation, I would rather choke up on the sword and use it more like a spear, so I can get better precision to attack a weak spot, and better leverage if the opponent moves in to grapple. But yeah, it's not like it would be useless against an armored opponent - you're definitely right about that. :)

[@super.history.brian.pilchard]

This is absolutely fascinating

[@lefthandedhemawithlordrami8220]

Nice to see more clubs srarring Montante. We regularly spar Montante with the Blackfencer synthetics at my club Tidewater Renaissance Fighting Arts.

[@dylanwing2168]

How have you found the Blackfencer synthetics? Im thinking about getting one for solo drill practice, would you say they are a good match for weight and balance?

[@lefthandedhemawithlordrami8220]

@@dylanwing2168 kzbin.info/www/bejne/o6LRXqiQZ5KmeNUsi=jrZRpaDtz1dGUVB1

[@pyroblade4312]

​Definitely, they are the closest you can get to steel, will last forever and are very cheap (for what you get) I personally order directly from them however there are loads of resellers that you can order from. Hope this helps

[@lefthandedhemawithlordrami8220]

@@dylanwing2168 kzbin.info/www/bejne/o6LRXqiQZ5KmeNUsi=zQHrNK8T0Pl4fpZe

[@snowtail1951]

1:12 Those guys in the background were in the longest grapple/bind ever, then the guy in black gets disarmed and is just like "nope" and books it

[@Hraustr]

hahaha nice observation. so funny when he ran for his life 😂

[@tatumergo3931]

​@@Hraustr . That's exactly what happened in battlefields when one of the armies would break and retreat.

[@kilo1901]

Bro slipped up on the bottom mash

[@CristiNeagu]

Run today, live to fight another -day- round.

[@dustinakadustin]

Exchange at 3:42 ending with the feint and strike to the groin was glorious

[@A_Medieval_Shadow]

Such Graceful movements are the reason why my love for the Zweihander/Montante/etc. Began

[@cloudforest4087]

The blade in circular motion is a treat to see. Skillful fighter.

[@Blackholebilly42069]

I could watch this for hours.

[@zwidowca1]

Now that is some proper "crowd control" : D. Great fencing as always!

[@JustGrowingUp84]

I love it! Please consider making a video about how it feels to spar with such a long sword, compared to a regular longsword. Is it difficult to adjust your movements in order to not hit the floor?

[@agish3169]

4:10 I would have run too if I saw someone with a massive sword

[@3BEPbKO]

I think the guy in black did a bit of Marozzo, but Morozzo describes the weapon in a shorter and lighter way than a montante. I would recommend learning the Figuyredo technique, the author was in the military and had a lot of practice.

[@tatumergo3931]

Who Figuyredo?.... I wish that today's military would still teach and practice renaissance and medieval martial arts. But I guess not everyone in the world wants to be like Japan 😢

[@edfieber1484]

In Germany they are called "Gassenhauer". Their task was to cut paths through the enemy lines so that the other fighters could follow.

[@davidschlageter5962]

Scary big swords!!

[@Druid_Ignacy]

Most of the time this is clear example of strike true vs look good; but at 3:42 ,,look good fencer" pulls off really impressive action! ,,We need to cut da balls" (singing) xd Dagger action is awesome as well.

[@aaronvalentinalferez2306]

So cool! Could you be so kind as to share the link to the black suit pls?

[@xact13]

Excellent! Looks exhausting-Was this more fatiguing sparring when compared to other weapons?

[@AcademyofHistoricalFencing]

It is much more tiring than most sword combinations yes, and more so than many polearms. This was also filmed right at the end of a two day HEMA event where we were both rather fatigued.

[@maxuli21]

Is there any literature on these types of weapons and their techniques, written by people who used them in real combat, not just for sport? Would be interesting to see what were seen as valuable techniques.

[@neskah_]

there’s a ton actually, and you can find some online i bet - HEMA is generally derived from ancient technique manuals written by swordmasters

[@luigi7781]

Now thats a big bonk!

[@penjaminthestrange4427]

Flamberge nylon greatsword?!?!?! not me wanting a nylon flamberge longsword or arming sword that would be TOO COOL

[@Davlavi]

nice match up.

[@Szeiker]

Jordan has a great Batman's armour

[@TalesForWhales]

Idea! Comparison video of "combat" lighstabers and hema sword stats. Like point of balance, length, weight, handling, etc.

[@randomprimarissalamander8735]

Seeing stuff like this really makes hme want to get into this kind of thing more ive always been interested in buhurt but its always felt out of of my price range an actual range due to the apparent lack of clubs in the uk HEMA seems like a good compromise option but again no idea where to find clubs ill have fo see if jy university has one

[@tatumergo3931]

Google it.... specially in the UK there are lots of clubs, and the distance to travel is shorter compared to the US. For example my nearest club is 200+ miles in either direction

[@Kamawan0]

Where is a good place to order a synthetic sword for practice?

[@juanmiguelpalacioesteban5591]

I have seen many fights between 2handed weapons,but I never have seen a montante vs danish axe(or even danish bearded axe) could yo upload some video of that kind of battle? It would be great seeing attacks , disarms, and parries, besides the speed of both weapons in a real fight, and knowing which weapon cause more damage to a chainmailed warrior, leather armoured warrior,and plate armor warrior... and de diference with only gambesoned warrior. Too if possible, which one has more hardness/resistance to hits/blend/cut strenght/smash strenght And wich one of them causes more tiring. Too, in a one vs one fight between equaled experienced warriors, which one has more posibilities of winning, and finally, which one of them is more easy for cutting a member (leg,arm) armored and not armored, or even wich one of them it is better for destroy stomach organs. in some films I have seen a great sword cut down a chainmailed warrior from shoulder to waist.is that real accurate? Can do a dane axe the same with equal physical effort? And finally, during the same time in a fight, wich one of them causes more tiring? By one hand is for curiosity, by the other hand is for document myself for a novel about a medieval warrior. Wich one of them has more hardness versus hits (the long blade or the long axe haft) And which one is better for disarms.(the axe has his curves in head, but the sword has their crossguard) To end, wich one causes the worst injures or has more puncture power (the axe head is solid and heavier, but the montante has more edge lenght for puncturing. So...wich one of them is deadlier? (If the warriors are equaled in battle prowess/ hability. And speed? wich one is more maneauverable? Something like "stats" of each weapon writing at his side wich one would win Attack Disarm Parry Speed Damage vs gambeson Damage vs plate Damage vs mail Damage vs leather Ressistance to hits(hardness) Res.Blend Cut strenght Smash strenght Tiring % victory % dismembering - armored - disarmored - % destroy organs - % cut in two parts - worst injures -better puncture power -deadly -speed Too detailed data, but knowing this, whatever one could appreciate more the running of a fight, the hability of combatants, and the endurance vs injures and hits of both...enjoying much more of the fight, abd appteciating much more the battle prowess of each warrior depending on his diference between kind of armouring heigh,strenght,dexterity, inteligent movements etc etc

[@tomtr6854]

Where can I get one ???

[@GreetTheSacredCow]

More greatswording pls.

[@aaiidt5770]

Any chance you can let us know where we can purchase these?

[@tatumergo3931]

Well if you read the description in the video title you would find out that those are Black fencers, one being custom order made.

[@indisponib1le]

I'm not an expert but just interested, could you tell me what a Flamberge is best for and what a Montante is best for?

[@AcademyofHistoricalFencing]

Montante is a type of large two handed sword, both in this video could be called montante, though they are usually a tad shorter and lighter than the typically even larger German two handed greatswords (called schlactschwert etc). They are great shock weapons as they can offend at any distance (almost the reach of a pole weapon but sharp and dangerous along it's whole length like a sword). They were often used to defend standards and valuable targets, VIPs in civilian life and town guards etc. Also as shock infantry. Flamberge is merely the wavy blade shape and it can be found on all sorts of sword types over many hundreds of years. The reason for it are argued and speculated over endlesssly. The potential reasons in shorts are, fashion, intimidation, binding ability, draw cut potential. I edge towards fashion and intimidation.

[@tatumergo3931]

If I might add... My research and conclusions has also led me to believe, that in warfare the montante/greatsword/schlactschwert were a type of anti-weapon type against certain troop types. During the late middle ages and renaissance, the pike became the predominant infantry weapon. The response to the pike formations was the rotelero, a foot-soldier armed with a round metal shield and a sword. Who would sneak between the pikes to break up the pike formation. The response to that was the montantero. Ofcourse they would not just be limited to dealing with rotteleros as previously stated, but also employ directly in support against the pikes, or also possibly against cavalry in combination with the pikes defense. It was a sort of medieval combined arms approach to battle... P. S. There would have also been present halberdiers or billmen, a slightly shorter polearm with a heavier blade design.

[@brucejedilee5290]

A character in the book I'm working on uses a greatsword as one of his primary weapons, this video will help me describe how he fights with it.

[@NoobDream25]

WHERE CAN I BUY THIS PLSSSSSSSSSSSSS I WANT IT SOOOOOO BADDDDDDDD

[@tatumergo3931]

Black fencer

[@СергейСорокин-е6у3я]

Такие мечи использовались против пехотинца в тяжёлых доспехах?

[@AcademyofHistoricalFencing]

They were used in unarmoured scenarios, partially armoured and almost fully armoured, but really they are best suited to unarmoured or partially armoured combat, where they were used in civilian and military contexts

[@freifechterbasel6115]

Are there sources that advise to cut in duels with the greatsword? I only know ones that are rather strict with advising thrusts only (Godinho and di Grassi). I'd be very happy if you could give me a hint.

[@AcademyofHistoricalFencing]

Very little is written about one on one with the greatsword, but yes, Godinho says you should only thrust when they face one another one on one, though it is worded in a way which implies many do cut in that scenario, and that his advice is different to them. We are currently working on two approaches to the greatsword, looking to understand it from a German perspective through the lens of Meyer's polearms, and also from a civilian perspective in fighting multiple opponent's from Godinho. In all our tests we have found Godinho's advice on thrusting only in this scenario to be very limiting with some major weaknesses.

[@freifechterbasel6115]

@@AcademyofHistoricalFencingYes, Godinho (and di Grassi to a much larger extent) seems to regard anything but thrusts in duels with contempt. And I tend to agree with them on the basis of my limited experience. As such we seem to have very different experiences. How interesting. In my experience its not much different from a spear and moving the blade out of line is a sure way to get hit by a halfway competent opponent. But I'm very interested in opinions different from mine. If you ever find time to elaborate on the reasons why cuts with the greatsword might be good in duels, I'd love to hear them! And I love the idea of doing Meyer polearm with the greatsword!🥰

[@josephlucas4024]

George Silver advises you to use cuts and thrusts like a staff in his two handed sword section (which is different than a bastard sword since other contemporary English sources make a distinction).

[@AcademyofHistoricalFencing]

The moving off the line thing being a sure way to get thrust is sort of true but there are some major ezceptions. For a start, thrusts here typically have to target the body, when the counter cuts can strike the arms out of that thrust distance. Also supressing cuts against thrusts are really effective and can create large openings on those who thrust. Meyer's polearm section shows all of this so well, and it is a universal system for staff, halberd etc, and he does even make reference to the greatsword in his earlier 1561 text. We have found that if you do not cut you merely lose a large amount of options and you pose a far lesser threat to the opponent, of which threat is a huge part of the greatsword. Parried thrusts can also often have far quicker ripostes than parried cuts too, because less energy and bracing is needed to set them aside. As an interesting parralel we can look to the 18th century advice of how to use broadsword (basket hilt) against smallsword, which only thrusts. The advice is essentially to keep out of distance and cut the hell out of their sword arm, and then use drawing cuts if you get in close. For me this perfectly highlights the issue of using only thrust work with montante. However, we will continue to do tests and make videos about that too.

[@freifechterbasel6115]

@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Looking forward to it! I appreciate you taking the time to explain as well! I think I understand your arguments and I can very much relate to the broadsword-smallsword example, having used that sort of strategy against rapierists with a sidesword. I'll just have to respectfully disagree that it applies equally to the greatsword due to the difference in movement length, acceleration and resulting time units. But it doesn't mean that I cannot be convinced. I feel like this would be a good time for show-and-tell, which is sadly not an option to me as I lack the filming equipment and editing skills. But I'm super interested in your future videos. Keep up the good work!

[@acewray4288]

are they lovers?

[@bladeRoller]

Was thrusting ruled out?

[@AcademyofHistoricalFencing]

Nope, it was allowed. There are two successful thrusts landed in this fight, one each, and several others attempted.

[@Scario45]

Shouldn't you be trying to fight only half sword against another Montante/Zweihander? These big swings must be exhausting everytime you have to interrupt your movement, you lose all the momentum

[@Link9058]

This is more fun

[@Anythingelseplz]

One thing i HATE about sword fighting is the way they try to use the tip to tap their opponents, its a GREATsword, swing to cut ur opponent in half 😮‍💨

[@AcademyofHistoricalFencing]

There is a good reason for it, because when you make large swings you create huge openings for the opponent to strike you. It is for this reason that several greatsword manuals recommend not cutting at all against another greatsword, and using thrusts only. Cutting reserved for when you face shorter swords that cannot reach you to time the openings.

[@Anythingelseplz]

@AcademyofHistoricalFencing idk maaan, I'd think cutting a mf in half for him to poke me is a net positive trade

[@tatumergo3931]

​@@Anythingelseplz. You lack understanding of human anatomy and kinesiology.....and that's just putting it mildly! You got the privilege of getting a response in an informative and educated manner so as to educate and inform you, just for you to completely discard it as if it was garbage...... so mature!

[@aasdqwwcacfwavdsvwe6013]

Bro you don't sound tough and you clearly have never fought or done martial arts in your life.

[@Anythingelseplz]

@@tatumergo3931 god damn, ain't it the funny police cummin to be a bummer

[@Mephiston1984LoD]

🙂

[@cspahn3221]

*kissy sounds*

[@thiagorodrigues5211]

That's an awkward sword to use. Was this the one they used against pikes? Seems too heavy and cumbersome for anything else.

[@AcademyofHistoricalFencing]

Their use against pikes is way overstated due to a misunderstanding and also bad research. They had many uses, in civilian use they were used as bodyguard weapons, for guards etc. In the military they were used as shock troops and more often to protect important people and objects, such as standard bearers etc. Heavy and cumbersome to a degree yes, but also massively outreaching all other swords, and they can be used like a small pole arm if you need to face polearms.

[@thiagorodrigues5211]

@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing What about it's use against armor? Because it doesn't look like it would be good for that either. It's not pointy and all. Just out of curiosity since I'm just a casual reader about that and you guys are literally teaching historical fencing! And would you recommend any website or book for someone who wants to learn more about it?

[@AcademyofHistoricalFencing]

They were often used in and against armour, but it was mostly against partial armours that were popular in the 16th century. In these cases the cuts can target unarmoured areas, but these swords can also thrust well and with halfswording techniques and taking hold of the ricasso they can be used well in closer range for thrust work. Some sources even show single hand thrusts with these for example. This book is a good overview to the subject - www.amazon.co.uk/Two-Handed-Sword-History-Design/dp/1526733137/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=the+two+handed+sword&qid=1683241488&sr=8-1

[@thiagorodrigues5211]

@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing thanks a lot for whoever is replying to this, thanks for the attention and the link. Definitely buying this one!

[@DerAptrgangr]

​@@thiagorodrigues5211 just a note, *these* ones aren't pointy at all because they are a synthetic replica. They aren't real swords, and they aren't sharpened or designed to be lethal weapons. A real greatsword would be able to both cut with the sharpened blade, and thrust with the sharpened tip.

[@SirPlusOfCamelot]

Each exchange would have lasted longer had you guys been using steel swords rather than synthetic.

[@AcademyofHistoricalFencing]

Sadly in the case of these weapons that is because with steel you have to hold back massively, and so it becomes a more a light technical exercise rather than a fight. Even with these synthetics we have to be very careful, but we can swing them through in ways that become extremely dangerous for our training partners with steel. This is the only sword type we use where steel is not the norm, and sadly I don't think it will ever be. We will post some light contact stuff using steel in the future, but it is hugely restrictive because ultimately near 6' of steel is very dangerous.

[@Dr.Moignon]

Dont get the point to train zweihander with plastic sword. It s so différent to train with steel and even more with big Swords. Even if you have experience with this, good luck with a real one. Half of your moves will never work.

[@baisansebastian3358]

...Do you realize what happens when you spar with a Steel Montante and a hit connects on your opponent? What usually happen is a serious injury , FYI.

[@AcademyofHistoricalFencing]

You're missing the point, steel swords of this size are devastating in their striking power. We do train with steel versions, and foam padded versions, and these synthetics. Each training sword type allows us to train different elements of the greatsword, but if you train with steel alone you simply cannot fully practice with partners as they were intended to be used. Each tool has it's strengths and weaknesses, as well as realism in what it represents when training with opponents. Lastly, the synthetic variants we are using in this video are not underweight compared to originals. They are in the lighter range of swords of this type and size, but within it, so no, the difference is not what you think. When we go to steel we move them just the same way, it's just so much more dangerous to anyone in front of it. We use a range of trainers between 2-3.5kg, which is the typical range of the original swords.

[@anitaremenarova6662]

Real steel of this size can only be used against heavy armor, also you have to be in *REALLY* good shape to swing up to 33lbs like nothing.

[@JohnMcKLV]

@@anitaremenarova6662 No functional sword ever reached 33 pounds. 8 pounds is about the maximum practical limit.

[@tatumergo3931]

​@@anitaremenarova6662 . Oh my dear Gott im Himmel, either you are trolling or you are one of those people who still believe that medieval swords weight a TON. You must have been living under a rock for the last two decades, for it has being well established that swords don't weight that much! P. S. Sorry you must be a kid, and you don't know that much. It's OK just continue learning...