I cannot believe how low it got in USA & UK charts

Fascinating. The exact same notes, and yet they have a completely different feel given the tempo and register. The State of Independence version is energetic, frenetic and drives everything forward. Makes Billie Jean sound that much heavier!!

6 words......too much time on my hands

An old saying goes "There's my take, there's your take, and there's the truth". Many comments here rightfully mention Hall & Oates' "I can't go for that"'s bassline as being *very* similar to "Billie Jean"'s. And there's also the now-famous anecdote of MJ amusingly confessing his theft during the We Are The World session. However, we should focus on the link between Jon & Vangelis and Q, that Paul mentions in this video. According to Jon Anderson, he once bumped into Q in some studio, and Q told him he and MJ were constantly listening to "The Friends of Mr. Cairo" during the Thriller pre-production sessions. Now the bass groove to that song does indeed have that Billie Jean vibe, except Q made it funky.

Darly Hall had said that Michael told him he lifted the bass for 'Billie Jean' off Hall & Oats song 'I Can Go For That.' And since he didn't sound kinda petty the way Quincy did, I found his statement more believable.

Nope. If the riff does not fit, you must acquit. Jackson innocent of all charges Judge PDBASS....

Thank you for that great video. Tears for fears are one of the greatest 80s Band. I loved them so much ....

I always thought that 'State of Independence' was as popular in America as it was in Europe. To hear it charted low thrre, is surprising.

Even as a long time Yes, Vangelis and Jon Anderson fan (I interviewed him back in September), I had never ever made the connection between Billie Jean and State of Independence until that Vulture interview with Q. State of Independence was a hit for Donna Summer in Norway as well, but the first version I heard was Jon & Vangelis' version. It wasn't until my sister heard me playing the original, and she told me "that's a Donna Summer song" I heard about this cover. What a feather it must be in Jon Anderson's cap that he not only was a part of making a track that Q loved, he also inspired two of the world's biggest hits, ever.

Should look at the lineup Q recruited for his version of Handel's "Messiah". Q didnt play!

A former bandmate of mine attended U of Miami '88 - '92. The faculty typically arranged for a series of workshops and mentorships to occur annually. I am not sure what year it was but my friend - a bass player - was mentored by Louis Johnson. It was during one of their sessions together that Johnson alleged that Michael wrote a melody over his baseline but never gave him a writing credit for it. Having gone through a similar incident with Greg Phillinganes and the bridge to Don't Stop; Quincy tried to convince Michael to include Johnson in the writing credits. Michael refused. It was then that Quincy came to an agreement with Louis in an effort to make the situation better - and by extension, his brother George - that when he did his next solo album; he would cover a Brothers Johnson song and make it a hit. Not being able to anticipate the success of Billie Jean or Thriller; Johnson agreed, and the result was I'll Be Good To You from Back On The Block.

wow - even though i took a lot of music theory always stuff to learn. Really enjoyed your analysis.

The two Bass lines share similarities. Most of all the polyrhythmic feel of the 80s. But, I would submit that the Bass line used for Billie Jean is much, much better. More refined and the changes used made it better overall. I would never have purchased "State of Independence", just because it's groove didn't make me want to dance (as had most of Donna Summer's previous work - heck, "I Feel Love" is an absolute banger to this day). But whatever the team did with Billie Jean, the note and rhythm changes to the Bass line made all the difference. Doesn't "feel" stolen to me - similar, sure, but couldn't we make the case for that on the majority of pop songs?

I was under the impression that Anthony Jackson was from Philly u til Facebook friend ( and bassist from Philadelphia) Basil Farrinton said that he’s from New York

Inspiration, not raw theft in my view.

Ray Brown was a bass player of the hero Oscar Peterson!

How bout Caribbean Queen-Billy Ocean? Very similar bass line aswell....

Enjoyed this, thanks

I’m just here for Donna Summer. One of the best singers in the history of pop music. What she did with Giorgio Moroder was musically as groundbreaking and innovative as anything MJ did. Her album ‘Bad Girls’ is truly a masterpiece. When people mention how Beat It was the first dance song to have a hard rock guitar solo? Donna’s Hot Stuff had already done that. Ms. Summer over MJ any day 🤘🏻

Ive figured out several of Michaels songs were just based off of other artists work. Thats the genius though... the greats stood on shoulders.

Hmmm...been a long time since I heard that song. I can hear similarly but it doesn't jump out at me - and I'm always the one driving my kids nuts with "That (some current piece of tiktok or viral pop - NB.we don't listen to Western pop anymore, only jazz and J-pop) sounds like (I search and play a 40-yr old pop song)." Eg. The opening of the currently very popular 'APT' by Rosé and Bruno Mars was clearly inspired by Toni Basil's 'Hey Mickey'. (And I think the latter song has some origin controversy itself...)

My favorite so far Paul. I bought the Jon and Vangelis record when it first dropped and loved it. It's definitely borrowing from Vangelis on the bass line. I've never heard the Donna Summer version, even though my favorite DS of all time is on that record. (Love is in control). I used to blast that through the systems down at LPPACS. But I never know she did this song. Thanks the great, and most educational episode!

How many totally unique things can be done with just 12 notes, half a dozen octaves (at best) and 4/4 in a fairly limited range of tempos in pop music? At some point just about everyfhing that get written/composed has to sound like something elss because everything has been done a zillion times already.

I'm not a professional musician, but the two songs sounds totally different.

No don't hear it

Music is math, eventually there be some intersection. Only so many ways to play something that pays off.

Great episode! I love the bass line from Billy Jean. Who doesn't? I think the fact that it's ostinato and arpeggiated explains a lot. This happens in classical a lot too with composers like Handel. And of course he lifted a lot too, sometimes from himself. LOL. Minor, diminished, arpeggiated, funky, walking. All aspects of a great bass line. Thanks for another great video!

Similar, ish, but not a lift.

I bought The Friends of Mr Cairo as soon as it came out and played it incessantly. When I first heard Donna Summer's version I wasn't all that impressed - to me it was a too-faithful cover that didn't bring anything new. A few months later, while driving in my car, I heard Billie Jean for the first time, the hook, the production, the story in the lyrics. But I never made a connection between the two bass lines until now.

The choir reminded me of mama-se mama-sa mama-cu-sa!

Nailed it, dude. 100%

“Friends” & “There it is” -Shalamar “Out the Box” -Whispers “Love in the Fast Lane” -Dynasty Leon’s the bomb.

I remember this track in the UK very well. It was more popular than the chart position suggests and it remained popular throughout the 80's and even into 1990 when it I think it was remixed.

Didn't the "Billie Jean" baseline actually come from a blues tune by Bo Diddley?

Excellent work !!! I really enjoyed this one !!!!

That was some interesting insight! Thx! And true, grown up in Vienna (Austria), this "State of Independence" didn´t hit the charts there. ;)))

The notes werent stolen at all. Just moved down a 4th and slowed down. F# and B are similar but different.

I can hear a similarity, but didn't MJ tell Hall & Oates that 'Billie Jean' was inspired by their song, 'I Can't Go For That?"

Yeah but when you think about it who doesn’t steal a little bit of something from somebody else when it comes to anything. that’s how you make it ur own.

Can Quincy steal from himself? Of course. He can do whatever he want with his creations. If the man say that the song could be a hit he would insist.

for your first video of Michael Jackson, huuu Oo that a nice tribute :D Oo

Best bass channel on KZbin, seriously. Wish you had a request poll somewhere, Alfie Agius and Dan K Brown!!!!! Check out how their styles hand off to one another in their tenure with the FiXX, Dan adopted part of Alfie's style go-forward and is also a monster bass player in his own right.

I thought this was going to be about MJ purportedly telling Darryl Hall that he 'stole' the bass line from "I Can't Go For That" (which I didn't really think was all that similar), but Paul threw us another curveball by uncovering the lost gem that is "State Of Independence". It sounds like Michael took the 8-note ostinato from Q and married it to the FEEL of the H&O song to make "Billie Jean". IMO, this is another testament to the vision and genius of Michael Jackson.

Now listen to Bill Wolfer talk about working with Michael Jackson on a 1981 Demo of Billie Jean which was recorded months before State of Independence by Jon and Vangelis and Donna Summer so Quincy on this case may have been wrong. Also Plus Billie Jean's style was inspired by I can't go for that which Hall and Oates mentioned after the We are the world sessions.

EVERYBODY want to take credit for EVERYTHING Michael Jackson has EVER done!!!

around 1980, its was " arpeg " fashion Electro disco, with the TB-303 of Roland, with song like Donna Summer - I feel love; Cerrone - Supernature, Giorgio Moroder - Chase (1978) etc in billie Jean its took same style than tb303 but with Real bass. i have a lot of example.

The one that is no question is that the song “Thriller” is a straight up copy of “Give It To Me Baby” by Rick James.

Don Freeman here. Great episode as always Paul. Firstly the great Quincy Jones & Michael Jackson were directly responsible for me getting my first publishing deal with Warner Chappell Music when they put a hold on my song Carousel which I wrote with Michael Sembello. We recorded the 24 track demo at Larry Carlton’s studio so I have him to thank as well. Even though Carousel didn’t make the first version of Thriller it was eventually added to later versions such as Thriller 25th Anniversary, Thriller Special Edition etc for which I am truly grateful. Now the bridge to Carousel was a diminished minor sequence in half steps I had heard 7 years earlier on Armando’s Rhumba by Chick Corea. I emailed Stanley Clarke and he loved it. As for Jon Anderson I co- wrote 2 songs with him and played keyboards on those as well. They are “ It’s On Fire” and New Civilization which feature John Robinson and my good friend Jimmy Haslip. It was produced by Stewart Levine ( Simply Red). As for the great James Ingram we wrote a song that was recorded by George Duke called “ I Surrender” which was fantastic. I worked with Louis Johnson on a song I wrote with Jeffrey Osborne and Mike Sembello Don’t You Get So Mad. Louis killed that groove. It was produced by none other than George Duke. It was a pleasure working with those people in the studio. Peace ✌️

Talent borrows, artists steal. Happens.

I really can't stand this Quincy Jones guy! What a bloody hypocrite calling MJ "as machiavellic as they come". How easy and discusting of him to speak ill of the dead! Here you can see who's really machiavellic and sinister. One action is worth a thousand words! What an obvious self projection when we all know that the real deviant is him, being glorified for his carrier when the guy was the crispiest of all! He was MJ's producer. Why not opening your filthy mouth when producing Thriller instead of waiting almost 40 years to doing so, in a nasty way, blaming a guy who's not around anymore!? What a disgusting cheap shot! 🤢🤮 Also shame on you for spreading false gossip!