I think that's fair. No one should buy products that they find offensive. And you're right, 'art' is subjective. I'm really just trying to get a sense of where gamers land on this topic that watch my channel. I think it's healthy to have discussions and debates about this stuff. Artists have been studying the human form for centuries--scrutinizing it, reproducing it, celebrating it in masterpieces. A lot of that art has been funded by powerful religious organizations. The Vatican, for example, has an impressive collection of art including many nudes. For instance, The Last Judgement in the Sistine Chapel portrays nude human forms. Is that trash?

@@bluebotic2327 in a way, art is really a form of communication. In any format of communication, there are at least two basic sides. The source intent, and the receiver's interpretation. The two are not always the same. Was an old nude sculpture of David meant to be erotic? Doubtful. Could many "enlightened" people look at it and see nothing inappropriate? Sure. Many others, especially younger teens, would look on it a bit embarrassed and curious. A feeling that this isn't quite right. A bit daring and grown-up. A bit taboo. Culture has a lot to do with this too. What body parts do people in different cultures view as private, or sensual? It varies. For me, trying to desensitize folks to, or normalize nudity as a medium for entertainment, is not a good thing. This was the major reason I didn't jump on board the more recent "Conan" board game. Naked, or nearly naked, women in the art. That nudes art fits perfectly with the theme of Conan, but it doesn't have a place at my table.

@@preacherbeeman3437 I agree with a lot of what you're saying. Artist intent and viewer interpretation often diverge wildly. First, I don't think children should be exposed to adult/mature content. There should be a rating system on print media and board games like there is on TV, film, and video games. I wouldn't want a TTRPG book with nudity to be mixed in with all-ages content and thrown on a shelf at a game shop. And stuff like this does happen in game shops, comic shops, and mainstream bookstores. I've seen it first hand and it's problematic. I think 'fine art' gets a pass (to a point). David can be David, and (American) children can be a little embarrassed when they see his willie. But should children be exposed to 'art' that pushes the boundaries of free speech/expression? No. I don't think so. I don't need my nephews' take on Maplethorpe. Second, I think there is a distinction between board games and TTRPG books in the context of our discussion. In one of the offline conversations I had, I even stated: 'I don't think there's a place for nudity in board games'. I personally don't want a box of cardboard and plastic depicting lots of naked people on my shelf or at my table. That's just me. That's just my line in the sand. But a book is a discreet, self contained artifact. I have a shelf (or two) for mature books, and as an adult, I read them and enjoy them and keep them away from my nephews. I don't have any TTRPGs with mature themes that 'do it right', so I've purged most of them. There's a level of skill, sensitivity, and taste needed to 'get it right'. An example would be the work of Gustave Dore. Masterful. His depictions of The Bible and the Divine Comedy are absolutely stunning, and do contain nudes. If a game designer was producing work of this quality, I'd be all over it. Lastly, 'Desensitizing' everyone to nudity is not my goal. I have done a lot of life drawing over the past 34 years because I'm always trying to become a better artist, and mastering the human form and anatomy is one measure of competency in art and illustration. It takes an army of art students toiling away on honing this skill for countless hours to produce a single Michelangelo. Most of us realize that we will never be the next Michelangelo, and so we find our lesser places, but the process is important. I haven't been tainted by my journey in life drawing. It's just one tiny part of my life. I'm very happily married. I spend exponentially more time out in nature (trail running, mountain climbing, hiking with my wife) than I spend drawing naked people. This is an art blog so everything I talk about is from the perspective of an artist that is always trying to hone his craft. That's why this conversation interests me. I'm trying to determine how much of my understanding of art can or should apply to game art. I appreciate your perspective.

@@bluebotic2327 I appreciate your perspective. I think one of the things I struggle with is the un-needed use of nudity in the entertainment industry, in general. How many movies/shows have I watched where a nude scene pops up that does practically nothing to make the story any better, from my perspective. It's a solid story unfolding, interrupted by needless nudity. Somebody thought it was needed for some reason. For me, it gets in the way of the story being more accessible. It doesn't seem more adult. It seems more childish, immature, and a weak way to gain views. Almost a lazy way to be controversial. I recognize that this seems to be a long way from the discussion of nudity in fine art, but I also think this history gives me a bit of bias against nudity in any form of media. From my personal religious perspective, the nude human form is a beautiful gift from God that was meant for us to enjoy gazing upon and dreaming about and enjoying within the proper bounds of marriage. This is where another bias forms for me against nude "art." Again, from my religious perspective, man has a habit of taking good things we are given, then twisting them just a bit away from what God intended, and using them to our own ends. That started a loooong time ago. Given that personal understanding, I recognize that this also biases me away from being accepting of fine art or game books which include nudity. I certainly could be wrong on the issue of fine art and nudity. I do see the beauty of creation in the forms fine artists have been able recreate through different media over the years. Proper warning labels on products would be a must, for me. Again, thanks for sharing your perspective. You got me thinking a little deeper about the issue than I have in a while. I think that is the real value in these types of conversations. Have a great day!!! Keep up the good work.

Yup. Europeans have had this figured out for centuries. Americans are still really hung up on nudity, but embrace ultraviolence.

Your response is very thought provoking. I think you've cut to the heart of the matter. And I think you're right about the red herring of sexual vrs non-sexual. It seems obvious in hindsight, now that you've said it. There will likely be some amount of sexual tension even in non-sexual nudity. And the consumer will always decide how much there is, and how much is too much. And it's all subjective. Impossible to quantify. And yeah, why am I even posing this question? Testing the waters? Trying to understand the mind of the 'indie game consumer'? Looking for permission to uncensor myself? Looking for confirmation that I should censor myself? Unclear. I think mostly, I'm just curious about the sensibilities of Indie TTRPG game consumers these days. BUt probably all those other things too.

@@bluebotic2327 If what I said was useful, I'm glad. Me personally, I am most interested in games where a single designer (or small team) carefully craft the whole game (art, components, rules, layout, etc.) with one unified vision of what they're trying to do -- even if they don't announce to me what that vision is. I might actually prefer "cryptic" games where the intention is not entirely clear. If I were to encounter a game along those lines that looked interesting, whether or not there was nudity in it would likely not be decisive for me.

@@Genghis-Pawn yeah that’s exactly how I am too. I prefer small, internally consistent art and games, and I usually gravitate toward ones that sell to a niche audience.

@@4141relee I think an official rating system for print media would be great. I’m surprised at how much mature / adult content ends up on general audience shelves at bookstores and comic shops. It seems like tv, film, and video games have all adopted rating systems. But print media seems all over the place. Frankly, music is all over the place too. I hear gangster rap with ultra violent and sexual lyrics playing in coffee shops and family style brew pubs where children are eating. It’s been normalized. And it sucks that children have to listen to that shit.

Hey thanks. yeah, I think nudity can be used in many different ways to achieve many different results. I'm not sure I even have a problem with vulgar imagery, as long as it's clearly labeled as such and not easily accessible to children.

​@@bluebotic2327 Oh absolutely, speaking in the context of the video and adult media. The rating and content labels should be clear for parents.

Maybe I'll do a video on some of the font design and layout stuff. I'm sort of figuring it out as I go, and I'm kind of a hack, but it's not as daunting as it seems.

@@bluebotic2327 We are all hacks! FWIW the "I have no specialized skill in this but here's how I started figuring it out" perspective is the one I'd find most interesting.

I don't feel qualified to comment on this because the only person I know that has read romance novels with those types of covers is probably my mom. Ha! And she seems pretty neutral on nudity in art. But I appreciate the sentiment. I do think men and woman both dabble in double standards against each other, especially in matters related directly to gender and sexuality.

And to answer your question: well it's complicated. If the theme is mature then I'd personally have no problem. I would even go as far as to expect those things. That the author does not strain from it. But it certainly, as you've mentioned, drastically decrease its exposition. I'd be a lot more descreet. Also must be done tastefully, not just to sell the product with sex. Personally I love art from Gerald Brom, Patrick J. Jones, they do not oversexualize, they make it look natural, but also very eerie.

@@Talliesyn I think there is a lot potential in the over-18 game design space. Not even in the realm of overtly sexual content, but just in the realm of not-for-kids.

I want to share an example of what I found absurd regarding nudity in films. As a fan of horror movies, I grew up watching many, and nudity is often a common element in slasher films. However, the 2009 remake of Friday the 13th went overboard with it, which detracted from my enjoyment of the movie. While I appreciate Jason's portrayal in this version, the excessive nudity and ridiculous sex scenes negatively impacted my enjoyment of all things blood and gore. This serves as an example of tasteless media that, in my view, failed to utilize nudity as an organic art form. If you've ever seen it or will watch it you'll probably understand what I mean. Don't get me started on the later Wrong Turn movies...

However, a recent slasher/grindhouse film called Candyland by John Swab did do it tastefully and organically imo. Also treated these flawed characters like real human beings. Good movie I think. kzbin.info/www/bejne/jqWTomWYfaetmpI

@@nightbirdgames Thanks for the movie rec. I'll check it out. I can't remember if I've seen that remake of Friday 13th or not. I may have tried to watch it at some point. I did see all the original slasher films in the 1970s-80s. I agree that there was likely a better sensibility about sex and nudity in media back then. I sort of wander to what extent the pervasiveness of internet porn has damaged artists' instincts toward nudity and sex in art and media in recent times. I also think ultra-violence in media is embraced by most Americans, while nudity still seems like a complicated topic. I know people that let their young kids play GTA and Call of Duty but shield them from bare breasted imagery in public art. That dumbfounds me.....

Yeah someone else suggested that too. Good idea. I could just include 4 to 6 red dice etc for tracking stuff...

@@andrewgibson4189 I first saw it in a bookstore while I was traveling abroad but didn’t want to have to carry it around for a week, so then I searched for it when I got back and found it on Amazon. The Fantastic Gustave Dore hardcover 2023. There are a bunch of thinner softcover Dore books floating around at used bookstores all across America for cheap too. His Divine Comedy is great. Dante’s Inferno etc. Paradise Lost is great. His bible illos are great. You can find all this stuff out in the world pretty easily. I do love this massive anthology though.

@@mikewice3608 thanks alot.

I haven't opened the new design for broader playtesting yet. I want to get it mostly worked out with my own playtests then open it up to my playtesters. The first two rounds of broader playtesting (Beta and then RC1) produced an enormous amount of useful feedback, so I'm very excited to get this new version into the hands of my playtesters.

I should add that I have gotten some emails from some of my playtesters and the comments from them about the new design are mostly positive. But I also appreciate the negative and brutally honest feedback I get, especially from people that have contributed a lot of their time and energy to playtesting this game. I guess it's also worth noting that this redesign was driven in large part by my desire to fix a lot of issues that playtesters (including myself) were having with the game.

It's totally weird. How does the brain imagine complete works in great detail like that.....it makes me wonder how many solutions are already locked inside our minds to questions we haven't even asked yet. Like maybe the problems we come up with are derived from the future solutions that already exist on some quantumly entangled level. And dreams are just snapshots from the future, or one possible future if we choose to unwrap it.

Hey thanks. I've got more to say on your project, coming soon!

Hey thanks man! I'm a total hack. So all I can do is keep hacking away!

You're killing it​! Hack away ⚔️

Hey thanks. Here are the book names (the Dore work is blowing my mind, I've seen a lot of it but neve rin one place like this): The Fantastic Gustave Doré Hardcover - May 9, 2023 Frazetta Book Cover Art Hardcover - January 3, 2023

Thanks!

Hey thanks allluckyseven. I have been keeping an eye on Shadowdark. I haven't pulled the trigger on it yet. Not sure why. But I've watched a lot of coverage on it. I've seen lots of positive chatter about Ker Nethalas. I should dig into it. I'm familiar with Cages of Fear. I might actually own it?! I bought several CYOA books when I was doing a deeper dive on the genre and got through some but still have a stack to look at. The CYOA space is still very exciting to me. Even my RoS/Low dream stuff has a CYOA component to it. I'm really curious what you're tinkering with in that space!! Yeah, digging into all the rulesets has ignited a fire in my coder's brain, and Dore has ignited my art brain, and the two fires are starting to collide. I think AD&D has a lot going for it in terms of level of detail. The Gygaxian language can be exhausting to wade through, but the underlying systems are interesting to me. OSRIC is a retroclone of AD&D 1E, and does a great job of making it more digestible. I think for multiplayer, I gravitate toward simpler systems (like Shadowdark seems to be) but for solo play, I really crave crunch and complexity these days. One example: you can start casting a spell in AD&D, and spells take multiple segments of time to cast, but depending on initiative and how the 10 time segments of a combat round play out, enemies can disrupt a spell mid-cast, etc. There's a lot of interesting mechanical nuance from which narrative emerges. The mechanics don't serve the narrative, they drive it.

@@bluebotic2327 I seem to remember that bit about spellcasting in AD&D 2e. It may have been one of the things that was kept (or adapted) from 1e. I definitely remember playing one of the gold box games from SSI (Death Knights of Krynn) and my spellcasters had their spells interrupted all the time. Of course I would try to do the same and stop enemies from casting their spells, so it became extra important to bring ranged weapons to a fight.

@@allluckyseven I think the most useful thing I learned in the past month is to take notes on things I read. Especially rulebooks. I was reading that AD&D DMG and thinking that I'll never fully process the whole thing or even be able to parse out the instructions from all the Gygaxian fluff. But taking notes made it very digestible. Active learning vrs passive learning. It's changing the way I think about consuming information. I guess i was doing that with some of the old Ares Magazine rulesets. And even Magic Realm. I'm remembering how useful notetaking is to the creative process.

@@bluebotic2327 I do some of that too, but should definitely do more. On my CYOA stuff, which I forgot to mention, it's very much in the embryonary stage and has no story at all yet, I'm thinking about structure, primarily. I have to do more research as I may be reinventing the wheel... But I want something more complex across the board. With shorter numbered sections and more options per section, different levels of connections between sections (not just number to number, but using conditional tags "if you got this item, if you're with this person..." maybe going deeper than that), and more complex, "AI" driven conflicts (not just physical).

@@allluckyseven that's awesome. I've spent a lot of time tinkering these types of CYOA engines. I think there is A LOT you can do with this type of thing. Simple codewords can add a lot of complexity. Those are basically yes/no booleans. 'Do you have the GOLDEN APPLE codeword: yes, goto page 10, no goto page 20'. You could come up with a 'scripting language', like: GOLDEN APPLE (y: 10, n: 20) Fabled Lands has extensive lists of codewords. But one thing I was playing with back when I was trying to write a CYOA was codewords with variable states, not just yes/no. GOLDEN APPLE could be any value from zero to whatever. And the game can tell you to set GOLDEN APPLE to a value. Or it can tell you to add a value to its current value. GOLDEN APPLE +=3. And I was even playing with some of these changing codeword values equating to page numbers. It makes cheating very hard. If GOLDEN APPLE > 0, GOTO page GOLDEN APPLE right now, otherwise continue. Anyways, LOTS you can do with COYAs that I never see anyone doing. You could write paragraphs that are functions. reusable snippets of logic. Flag your paragraph number then goto a function paragraph, possible passing into it a codeword or codeword value, the function returns a new value or codeword and you continue. Exciting stuff. Basically an analog software program.

@@davidstevens1309 sadly, V1.0 will be printed and distributed via TheGameCrafter. I realize this is not optimal (or even feasible) for many Europeans. I’d love to make this game available in Europe, but as a one man studio with little time or resources, TheGameCrafter is really the only viable option for me right now. But, maybe I can crowdfund a v2.0 and figure out fulfillment overseas. I also plan to release a print and play version for cheap or free. So that’s an option. And I’m seriously considering a roll and write / rpg version of this game as well. Which would just be a pdf and/or POD book VIA DriverhruRPG etc.

@@bluebotic2327 Hey, I totally understand. I'll continue following with interest :)

I posted a survey here on my channel a few weeks ago (since this YT channel is really the only platform I'm on and it has more eyes on it than my BGG page). I got about 100 responses and they were split down the middle about standees as part of the core or as add-ons. It's interesting to see that half the people interested in LOW are totally cool with just counters. And half really want standees. Yeah, monster card backs should probably enhance gameplay in some way, and not just be eye candy or flavor.

Thanks!

Loved Ireland! Brought back Covid. But it was worth it. Playtesting has revealed some minor issues with discovery cards that I'm fixing now. Nothing major. I think the new system is going to be cool.

Weird, just saw this. Yeah, good point. Dice could be easier, cheaper, and less noisy for tracking numeric things. I'm not crazy about tracking numeric values using dice. Rotating the dice, trying to find the right pip etc. But, it really is cleaner. I'll play test some using dice. Replacing the red numeric counters with a couple of red d6 dice could be an improvement....

@@lostSUND4Y hey thanks I really appreciate the kind words. I have a philanthropic fantasy of someday producing a library of copyright-free fantasy art and making it available to all for free. A sort of gift to the fantasy tabletop gaming community. Maybe after this game ships I can think more on that. I need a reason to draw more.

@@camboyrdee Thanks a lot!

Thanks. Yeah, I love that they exist. They are more fun for me than counters. I need to crunch the productions cost for the various options.

@@bluebotic2327 Yeah! Definetly figure that stuff out but I think they could also be integrated into the game in an easier, more cost effective way. Like, maybe since you already have cutouts organize them in a different way to fit standees too?

Good ideas. Status counters for all conditions will increase the counter count quite a bit so I may have to just use min cards.I think the printer I'm using for the final product does rounded corners on everything. I thought of using a black stripe at the base edge of numbers and letters too for easy orientation.

Hey thanks. Yeah, crafting paper and chipboard stuff is oddly satisfying for me. It's very meditative. I've been doing it since I was in elementary school so I think it tickles some very deep neural pathways in my brain.

Thank you!

Ha! Very true...for the Print and Play version....

Hey thanks. They're coming along. I'll need to do one more art/design cleanup & copy edit on all of them. Right now, many of the cards are still using art from the counters which is too iconic and low res for cards. But the cards that I've upscaled and detailed in Photoshop look decent so I've got a process figured out. it's just gonna take some time.

I love crafting stuff. It's very meditative for me. I used to post a lot more videos that demonstrated process.

I really like the map cards back!!!

@@kkantele thank you!!

Tiny cubes for numeric counters is not a bad idea. I can see a case for going that way. if there were several 'shapes' they could even be used as UID pairs. Instead of two 'A" counters, you'd have 2 'Cylinders'. Sounds expensive. But that would also get the game down to 4 slugs of counters from 10. I'll look into it as a thought experiment. In most cases, the numeric counting will be low: 1-5-ish.... I thought about that issue with Hero Setup rules on card backs. But, for the most part, the rules will be instructing the player to grab a bunch of minicards: spells, potions, ingredients, equipment, and powers/skills. The very last instruction could be: now turn this card over and place the 3 vital stat counters on their starting positions of the stat tracker. And these values are listed on the side of the card containing the stat tracker.

Thanks John! Yeah, I think it'll be about 100 mini cards. Not horrible. And my home built card stock id slightly thicker than the actual card stock, so this stack looks bigger than it is... I hear you on youtube's 'algorithm'. I've just been trying to watch less and less youtube. I've even scaled back on channels that I love and even channels back on Patreon. Drowning in content. I'm still very addicted to YT...

It will sold on Game Crafter when finished.

John's right. Version 1.0 of the game will be available in two formats: Print on Demand at TheGameCrafter.com, and Print & Play via a downloadable PDF. It is just a fun little passion project. But I want to make it available to anyone that wants to play it. If I'd kickstarted this project, by now I'd have a mob of angry backers demanding results and/or refunds due to how long this game development has taken me. I see it all the time. Entire channels devoted to shaming crowdfund game devs. Maye v2.0 could be crowdfunded since it'd just be minor tweaks and bug fixes. but even then, I'm just not sure it's the right platform for me.

yeah, I have considered male/female hero card sides. But I'd need more counters and standees to represent these opposite gendered heroes.

It's from Oregon Lamination. You can get it in various radii, but this one is probably 3mm.

Yup. OL. This one has lasted for 7 years, 2mm, I think..... Thousands of corners. I probably need to get it sharpened.

thanks!

Thanks!

Me too!

That's a great idea. I did consider adding icons to some Discovery Cards. And one of those icons could mean: you may search for a secret passage here. I like the idea of secret passages being counters that can potentially provide passage from any walkable space, through a solid wall space, to another walkable space (even between map tiles). That would make secret passages way more valuable. But also rare, constrained by the number of counters. Man, I really underestimated the cognitive load of all the travel and made zero progress with Ferryman. But now that I'm back and my update is posted and we're entering a holiday zone I will finally play it.

@@bluebotic2327 Yeah that sounds like a great idea with the icons. No problem! I actually been making some quality of life changes. Some reformating, which probably wasn't a problem before but the more you look at something the more you think maybe it sucks lol. Adding some more options to some tables and streamlining. The only big change is how missions are handled (no more rolling for where they are located, now there are mission sites all over the map you can go towards to complete missions). I added a little star icon to represent these. Also, roaming threats are tracked with a simple token, cube, etc now instead of dice flipping each turn. I missed my Kickstarter date because of a problem with the lighting in my playthrough video. Looked great on camera but the actual video is blown out. Looks like it's under questioning for murder. Probably leaning towards mid August or early September now. The Kickstarter page is looking fantastic though, short and sweet and grimy. Perhaps it was a good thing since I did think of the streamlined mechanics. Also Microsoft updated and messed up some formating in publisher so I had to go through and fix that. I'll send you the updated version when it's ready, so if you want to hold off to play with the mission and roaming threats updates that'll be totally fine.

@@nightbirdgames I would love to play the updated version! Definitely send me a link at your convenience. The changes you describe sound really good. I do plan to shoot a playthrough once I get into it. I find that natural daylight is the best for shooting board games on tables. I prefer to set up my table or use one that is near a window and preferably that window is perpendicular to the camera so the lighting is coming from the 'side'. If the camera is facing the window, you will get glare or washed out color. And the soft shadows that a side facing window casts help convey dimensionality of the game components. I like to put a piece of chipboard down on the playing surface for two reasons: it has a non-glossy & diffuse surface, and it's a mid-tone neutral color which helps keep your game component colors from getting 'color corrected' by the camera. It just seems to produce the best colors and contrast. I use zero lights when filming most of my stuff. You can see the results of this method in some of my old Ares Magazine videos, like Citadel of Blood how this all comes together. That's about when I figure this stuff out. The black cutting mat that I use in some of my videos produces worse color and worse contrast. And when fail to put down a diffuse mid-tone substate, my tables are too glossy and that also ruins the color and contrast. I only do right about half the time.

@@brodieswift3061 it’s an Epson 7720 or something. Inkjet. I’ve had it for a while. It’s an affordable workhorse. I rear feed strathmore Bristol board for card printing. One sheet at a time. The counters are printed on my HP laserjet printer. And spray mounted onto 0.040 chip board. You can also just go to kinkos etc.

Thanks!

The rulebook and the quest book will have to be completely re-written. I hope to start doing that after this round of play testing. I think in general, the core rules and the quest rules will be shorter and more concise since both are more modular due to the use of cards.

Yes I agree, I would love a video on how the game works with the new system

@@AymericGA if the play testing goes well, I’ll shoot and post a session.

I love the idea of writing quests that have conditionals. Quest 1 sort of has one conditional at the end. But I could see really leaning into that for some more advanced quests. Yeah, advanced monster rules = more work. And I am really starting to budget dev time so that I can finish this game in this lifetime. Anything but generic monster cards backs is going to eat up lots of time. Even splash art. 14 monster types. Let's say 4 hours per illo. It's a lot....

@@bluebotic2327 Then again... That sort of thing is really fun to do (IMHO!) Both creating new rules/options and creating art. The painful part is implementation. Putting that stuff you've dreamt of into the cards, having to cut stuff out because it doesn't fit, etc. And, well, sure, balancing. If that's desirable. Creating new rules would be like making 50% - 75% more monsters... But coming up with options like alts for monsters where they get different attacks with wider effects once a certain condition is met (think of a "bloodied" monster that gets more aggressive, those options would be on "side B" of the card)... that's the cool part of making games.

@@allluckyseven 100% this is where game dev should really start to get fun. I need to lean into these things that could make the game better. Maybe way better. By tweaking existing assets and available real estate.

@@bluebotic2327 As a (very fair!) compromise, couldn't you use the same art as on the front but turned 90 degrees (so portrait orientation)?

@@litendavid I'm not sure it'd hold up at the bigger scale. I'd need to do illustrations at a higher res with mroe detail. Which would probably be the most fun part of this entire game dev process. But also time intensive. I have considered releasing an RPG or roll and write version of this game, in which case I'd need better art for all the monsters anyways.

Hey Luchiop! Yeah, I've considered variants and/or modifiers.

Magic Realm does Magic Realm better than I can!