21 сағат бұрын
14 күн бұрын
Ай бұрын
2 ай бұрын
3 ай бұрын
3 ай бұрын
5 ай бұрын
5 ай бұрын
6 ай бұрын
Пікірлер
@TimothéeRichard-r6w Сағат бұрын
Hi, I’m asking myself why there are doubts about changing the metronome values at that time for some composers just because it seems to fast to play (changing to whole beat), even if in the meantime, we don’t have any doubts for exemple on Hanon’s metronome markings in his exercices. As the metronome markings written are perfectly usable today without doubt.
@sylvestrelauriotprevost 3 сағат бұрын
Le bon tempo est celui qui met le mieux en valeur l'écriture du compositeur et non pas le jeu du pianiste
@tahaouhabi3520 10 сағат бұрын
I was hoping that someone with as much knowledge as you sir can do a video or a series of videos breaking down the Art Of Fugue by JS Bach, I have been listening to it recently and there is something there that sets it apart from any music out there, it's even different from all the other fugues and canons that Bach composed.
@nicomenci6785 11 сағат бұрын
Maestro Chelibidache sarebbe d'accordo con te!
@EggMCMUFFIN-e4l 13 сағат бұрын
Personally I prefer 1.25x for this recording. The originally tempo sounds too lethargic and the legato lines sound choppy and disjointed. I also find some of the details actually become lost in too slow of a tempo, especially the melody line.
@currawong2011 14 сағат бұрын
"Really cool"? Really? Interesting, maybe revelatory, or reconfirming, but certainly not "cool".
@duartevader2709 16 сағат бұрын
😂
@Robert...Schrey 18 сағат бұрын
the trill needs to be played in a 3-4 manner.
@EggMCMUFFIN-e4l 19 сағат бұрын
Much of the speed race was due to the limitations of recording technology at the time. By the time recording technology had much advanced around 1950 the speed race was already won by who could play the quickest and fastest. Even those who studied under Liszt or Pupils or Liszt or Chopin suffered from this “tempo disease”. Not to mention the concert halls and their constant growth which lead to louder, and faster music. Music has become not for the healing of the mind, soul, or music for the mind, but music than can be ran through and obliterated! The tempo war goes deep…
@DismasZelenka 22 сағат бұрын
18:01 on. If Marx was referring to Czerny's metronome indications at all here, he would have understood half = 76 in 'single-beat', and would have thought it much too fast for a movement of a contrapuntal nature. In his Allgemeine Musiklehre (1839, 1857 edition) Marx gives a 'single-beat' account of the metronome (quarter = 60 MM means 60 quarters a minute) in the Appendix 'Der Chronometer', which covers Maelzel's metronome and Gottfried Weber's pendulum chronometer. The appendix ends with a paragraph minimizing the usefulness of metronomic measurements. “In truth, however, music, which is not intended to reveal mathematically determined quantities but the stirrings of the soul and the free movements of the spirit, is not at all concerned with a mathematically measured measure of time; in fact, it finds it contradictory to its nature, and in fact approximate tempo determinations are more suitable for it than absolute metronomic ones. The performing musician or the director of a larger performance must of course strive to understand and reproduce the meaning of the composition as deeply and faithfully as possible; therefore it is also his responsibility to match the composer's tempo as precisely as possible. But ultimately everything depends on his mood and the way in which the work has come alive in his soul and become his own.” This idea is restated in the chapter on Tempo in the Introduction to Beethoven. “However valuable the instrument may be to the composer, for a safe placing of the tempo desired by him, an absolute determination of the tempo is not in accordance with the spirit of art.” … “We must therefore return to the old markings, which give at least approximate determinations, and which yield artistically favorable liberty both to the subjective feeling and to the demands of the moment, besides having authoritative value.” In Allgemeine Musiklehre there is a footnote attacking Czerny's fast tempi for Bach's contrapuntal works (p.229): "ein sinniger, wohl gar polyphoner Satz, in dem man jede Wendung, den Gang jeder Stimme fühlen möchte, wird zerrüttet durch zu schnelles, vielleicht für ein glänzendes Bravourstück eben angemessenes Tempo; und der Verfasser muss bei dieser Gelegenheit ausdrücklich gegen viele Tempobezeichnungen protestiren, die in der sonst vortrefflichen und höchst rühmens und empfehlenswerthen Ausgabe von Bach's sämmtlicben Werken (bei Peters in Leipzig ) von C. Czerny -- freilich mit Berufung auf Beethoven, wahrscheinlich aber mehr unter dem Einfluss seines eignen ausgezeichneten Virtuosenspiels -- gegeben worden sind." "a meaningful, even polyphonic movement, in which one would like to feel every turn, the course of every voice, is shattered by a tempo that is too fast, which may be just appropriate for a brilliant bravura piece. and the author must on this occasion expressly protest against many tempo markings which have been given in the otherwise excellent and highly praiseworthy and recommendable edition of Bach's complete works (published by Peters in Leipzig) by C. Czerny -- admittedly with reference to Beethoven, but probably more under the influence of his own excellent virtuoso playing." This is very much in accordance with what he is saying in his 'Introduction to Beethoven', on the page shown at 6:03. It this comment is the last straw which leads to my being blocked, so be it.
@AlbertoSegovia. 21 сағат бұрын
Your naïveté knows no bounds. 1. Determine Marx’s base tempo and if Czerny was one of the competent pianists playing at double that speed (someone who purportedly learned Beethoven’s Piano Sonata in a fortnight). 2. Ask Juilliard et al. for a devolution to historical pianos. 3. Make a logical connection of the wish to return to tempo words to allow for liberty and concluding that Marx did not take into account Czerny’s tempi as his guides. 4. Make a logical connection between half 76 to explicitly denouncing Czerny’s mark. 5. By extension of prior, Distrust all of Czerny’s tempo marks for being too fast. 6. Take into account that the marks of Czerny’s for Bach’s second and other inventions could fall into that category. 7. What did Marx have at hand to ellucidate what was the true spirit of a composition? 8. Think critically and analyse your comments,
@DismasZelenka 21 сағат бұрын
@@AlbertoSegovia. Did Marx think that a metronome indication meant two ticks to the note value, or one tick, i.e. did Marx think the indication quarter = 60 MM meant play 30 quarters a minute or play 60 quarters a minute? Can you find the Appendix on Der Chronometer in Allgemeine Musiklehre and find out the answer for yourself? How would you go about 'determining Marx's base tempo'? I'm genuinely curious. Perhaps you should read the whole of Marx's chapter on Tempo to give yourself some ideas about "elucidating the true spirit of a composition'. As to "not taking Czerny as his guide", read the footnote on p.68 of 'The Introduction to Beethoven'. "It is well known that Beethoven's works were variously marked metronomically by later editors (Czerny and Moscheles). Such indications *can of course only be considered as individual opinions of the editors, and ought therefore not to be accepted without test."* In other words, you do not need to accept any particular tempo indication of Czerny or Moscheles if your understanding of the content and character of that particular movement leads you to disagree with it.
@AlbertoSegovia. 21 сағат бұрын
@@DismasZelenka 9. Try to see if innumeratus above should be your or my starting point,
@DismasZelenka 21 сағат бұрын
@@AlbertoSegovia. I forgot to say in my overlong comment that the finales of op.101 and of op.26 are contrapuntal, or polyphonic, in nature, and would thus come under Marx's recommendation against too fast a pace. What he says about the op.101 finale is the same as what he is saying about polyphonic movements in the footnote attacking Czerny's tempi for Bach: compare "a meaningful, even polyphonic movement, in which one would like to feel every turn, the course of every voice, is shattered by a tempo that is too fast" with "For an accomplished player it is not impossible to play this passage as fast again as is meet; but can the listeners be able to perceive and feel all the voices which form the polyphonic network?"
@DismasZelenka 21 сағат бұрын
@@AlbertoSegovia. What is an innumeratus?
@juanmanuelportillolopez7956 Күн бұрын
This video is cute lol
@juanmanuelportillolopez7956 Күн бұрын
You call that "presto agitato"? Not an italian speaker are you? 😅
@AuthenticSound Күн бұрын
yes/no/
@twixy..therianz Күн бұрын
Good stuff!
@backtoschool1611 Күн бұрын
Wim's recording has a nice dance feel to it, that I have never heard in this piece before. I like it!
@Shost7 Күн бұрын
What a great pianist!
@EggMCMUFFIN-e4l Күн бұрын
Very intimate performance…
@profeluisegarcia Күн бұрын
Virtuosism usually kills the genius of the composer: counterpoint, mainly in today organists trained to be pianists.
@tomaszedwards7616 Күн бұрын
What a beautiful way of explaining Chopin’s rubato
@DismasZelenka Күн бұрын
It is very odd that, if Marx thought that the MMs of Beethoven (for op.106), Czerny and Moscheles (for the other sonatas) were correct, that he should have devoted 5 pages to discussing how to determine the right tempo. Why didn't he just say: "Tempo: use the metronome and follow the indications of Beethoven, Czerny and Moscheles" and move on to the next subject?
@AlbertoSegovia. Күн бұрын
It is very odd that you so sentence this without proving that Marx auspiced all of the varying Czerny’s or Moscheles’ numbers thereto.
@DismasZelenka Күн бұрын
@@AlbertoSegovia. I can't prove it, but he wrote a footnote: "It is well known that Beethoven's works were variously marked metronomically by later editors (Czerny and Moscheles). Such indications can of course only be considered as individual opinions of the editors, and ought therefore not to be accepted without test." Wim Winters in his earlier video on Marx assumes that Marx knew and accepted the MMs of Czerny and Moscheles.
@AlbertoSegovia. 23 сағат бұрын
@@DismasZelenka Because Czerny didn’t know the composer and hear him play?
@DismasZelenka 23 сағат бұрын
@@AlbertoSegovia. I'm reporting what Marx says. You argument is with him, not with me.
@AlbertoSegovia. 22 сағат бұрын
@@DismasZelenka you’ve lost your mind,
@olavmars7846 Күн бұрын
Bravo ! here is the musicianship that elsewhere gets under the radar or is sacrificed by circus performers of the industrial musical complex...Wim Winters practical arguments for his new (or old !) metronomical paradigm is concincing. Congratulations.
@lucaszimbar4381 Күн бұрын
Can you do a video about Schumann piano concerto? It also makes a good point about whole beat.
@user-M.O. Күн бұрын
Nowdays people think the fastest you play the better. My heart sunk every time I hear revolutionary by Chopin played at an insane tempo and they believe they great. The fastest you play the less defined frassing. All is lost at a way too fast tempo.
@VallaMusic Күн бұрын
just stunned that such an elementary concept has to be propounded over and over, video after video - of course, it needs to be, human nature being what it is - but still, I am stunned - I think humanity will save itself when pride is finally put aside - then stupidity can be acknowledged - then people can get over themselves - and maybe even laugh at themselves
@jayarbe60 Күн бұрын
I love your considered tempo and emphasis on the melodic notes. A lot of performers seem to be more keen to show off their virtuosity by taking the whole prelude at a gallop. The slower tempo you use emphasises the lyricism of the piece - and gives hope for piano students who, like me, might be struggling with it.
@ΝίκοςΜαγειρόπουλος Күн бұрын
You look like Tom Cruise!
@DismasZelenka Күн бұрын
Does anybody else who has actually read the whole of this chapter of A.B. Marx agree with me that Marx is dismissing metronome indications as unhelpful, and saying that tempo choice depends partly on the Italian tempo words, partly on a careful theoretical analysis of the work to be performed, partly even on the personality of the performer?
@DonRushtheClassics Күн бұрын
Whether Wim is right or wrong doesn't matter to me anymore. I've made my choice. After 40 years of disliking Mozart, I now own his complete works. I digitally adjust the tempos to my liking, and it's a revelation. I'm grateful to Wim for opening my ears to this new experience. You should be happy for us finding joy where we once found none.
@DismasZelenka Күн бұрын
@@DonRushtheClassics I am happy for you! But, apart from differing tastes in music, I like to read and make sense of historical sources to find out what people thought and did back then, which is why I was attracted to this channel in the first place, and I really don't believe that the message Wim is sending is the same as the message A.B. Marx sent. However, there is little point in giving my reasons, since most commenters are completely convinced by Wim and don't want to know about anything that calls his theory into doubt. I don't like being the sort of person who goes around telling six-year-olds that Santa Claus doesn't exist! P.S. I now understand that when you said in another reply "I am very interested in learning more" you weren't sincere, you were being ironic.
@AlbertoSegovia. Күн бұрын
@@DismasZelenka then do continue to be ignored,
@DonRushtheClassics Күн бұрын
@@DismasZelenkaI appreciate your perspective and respect your viewpoint. However, I believe many people share my experience of associating classical music with historical dramas and "old-timey" settings. I understand that people don't want to limit human potential. It's natural to strive for faster speeds in Formula One racing or shorter times in long-distance running. I doubt many would show up to a 80mph NASCAR event. A surprising benefit of embracing slower tempos has been the improvement in my physical health. I no longer experience wrist or neck pain from trying to achieve professional speeds. Now I can play piano all day without injury, and that alone makes it worthwhile.
@cristhiangrundmann1226 Күн бұрын
Why on earth would metronome marks be unhelpful? (Im Asking Marx) They are very helpful, or at least more helpful than italian words. For *stating the composer intentions/recommendations* they are obviously helpful since they give an absolute tempo, while the italian words have their own range of acceptable tempi. For a performer choosing their tempo, they are still helpful because the performer now know at least one tempo choice that is approved by the composer, and whether they pick a totally different tempo or not, at least they have an absolute tempo reference given by the composer. Im trying my best to distinguish the composer notation with what the performer does with it: The composer notates the score with all the information they care to give. This includes tempo, pedals, dynamics, repeats, even the notes, everything. A performer receives the information that the composer gave and does whatever they want to do with it. If the composer wants to express a recommended/approved tempo, the metronome is helpful because it allows them to express it with a much greater precision than italian words. They may be useless for the performer who decides their tempi in other ways, but at least Beethoven had a precise way to express it for those who wanted it. This is just my rant tho im not a musician nor a musicologist nor did i actually read a single line of the Marx text lol
@theclavierist 2 күн бұрын
I asked a chicken today: 'How was the metronome used by Beethoven, Chopin and all those cools guys of the 19th century?' she replied with a double movement of the neck..
@sherlockholmes5197 2 күн бұрын
Ridiculous, we are in the year 2024, music advances, it does not stay in the past.
@dougr.2398 Күн бұрын
@@sherlockholmes5197 every antique style has its resurrection. Platform shoes for example
@DasDoeni 2 күн бұрын
1. the original German version by Marx says „two to three times the tempo“, so it doesn’t really proof your theory. It’s much more likely that Marx just was exaggerate to ridicule the faster pianists. 2. in the same book Marx writes: .Think of how many feelings, thoughts, and thought-pictures crowd together in one or two quarters of an hour in which a Sonata Op. 101 or 106 hastens by…“ This gives us a pretty good idea of the tempo used for the „Hammerklaviersonate“, a performance takes 40-50 minutes - still more than Marx writes, but a 90 minutes performance would be 3x longer than what he wrote about - he would hardly make that error, especially if he was that concerned about the wrong tempos being used
@AuthenticSound Күн бұрын
yes it does, the fragment you refer to (incorrectly quoted by the way: Marx writes: noch ein-oder zweimal) - refers to the text 10 lines higher where he writes on the opus 101 "Für einen tüchtigen Spieler ist es nicht unerreichbar, den Satz etwe noch einmal so geschwind zu spielen, als sich gebührt." That is crystal clear. A few lines later Marx underlines this point by exageration, and the English interpreter brought that back to its original meaning. I'm sorry to dissapoint, but there really is no escape...
@DismasZelenka Күн бұрын
It is important, I think, not to confuse the two different situations Marx describes; a skilled player capable of playing the finale of Op.101 twice as fast as it should go; and would-be virtuosi who might actually play some other movements twice or three times as fast just to show off their skills.The English text has rather muddled Marx's meaning. The logic and layout of the German text is clearer. First paragraph. In the case of Op. 101, last movement, which starts as a quite simple canon and then becomes a 4-part fugue at the same tempo, he says a skilled pianist could play the movement at double the speed that it should be played, but the right speed would be one slow enough for a listener to hear and feel the different voices in the polyphonic fabric. He then repeats the main point of this chapter, that the content of the whole must be taken into account if one wants to get the tempo right. Note, he is not accusing this pianist of empty virtuosity. He is simply offering rational advice to a reasonable person about how to go about deciding on the right tempo. Second paragraph (a separate paragraph in the German text, included in the first in the English). There are people who are just show-off would-be virtuosos. He says that for these people a different approach is needed, since they will be unwilling to sacrifice their ego to a rational consideration of the content and character of the work. Third paragraph. The approach is to appeal to their vanity by pointing out to them that playing the finales of certain Beethoven sonatas (a few examples are given, op.101 is not mentioned here) two or three times faster than is desirable will not make them sound like brilliant bravura virtuosos They should stick to Etudes and concert pieces whose sole aim is brilliance and bravura, and should be aware there is a difference between works designed to display virtuosity, and works (like Beethoven's sonatas) of serious thought that require a more rigorous intellectual understanding. Whether 'double the speed' is double a metronome indication, or double a tempo decided on by careful consideration of content and character, is a question that remains to be asked.
@AlbertoSegovia. Күн бұрын
Great, at least he had the fortune of talking only to reasonable persons.
@cristhiangrundmann1226 52 минут бұрын
@@DismasZelenka I found Q=120 for the last movement on IMSLP . Double the speed in this case would mean playing 16 notes per second recurrently, in a SB reading, so I guess it can't be double the MM in SB. In fact it would mean that a careful consideration of content and character yields a tempo strictly below the MM in SB. Of course, here im taking the term double the speed as if it's exactly 2x or really close to 2x. People are known to exaggerate(citation needed).
@onlyflatspiano 2 күн бұрын
This past weekend, I was having a few drinks with my best friend, he's a classical music enthusiast as me so we were listening some classical music. At some point, very late at night, the last mouvement of the 9th by LvB came out of the playlist. And instantly he freaked out, and said "Am I too drunk or this is too fast". And I took the opportunity to talk about WBMP. I find it funny how he needed to be drunk in order to figure out WBMP.
@汗をかいたアヒル 2 күн бұрын
Tempo does not demonstrate virtousity- the ineffable information the performer adds to the printed music is virtuosity. I am studying WTC (and Jazz piano) and I consider Mr Wim Winters to be a virtuoso. By removing speed, the nuances of expression burst forth and Bach's true worship of the divine blossoms.
@RichardThyme-x5e 2 күн бұрын
For a very long time we have known that metronome marks are not to be held with any real authority . The Hammerklavier mark s are probably a joke .Howoften does Beethoven use metronomes .Beeth could be sarcastic and easily angered he might have been disgusted and simply let itbe published for all kinds of reasons.Use your own sense! An intelligent ,musical person can find hundreds of different ways to play any music. It seems infantile to talk about definitive performance as if Beethoven or Schumann etc. knew the perfect way . Music comess to us we downt own it and neither does THE COMPOSER > FOOLS WAKE UP !
@dougr.2398 Күн бұрын
@@RichardThyme-x5e you own it if you love it
@ilpianoforte 2 күн бұрын
Game Over
@donde2k 2 күн бұрын
Have you ever seen the film clip of George Gershwin playing a selection from his Rhapsody in Blue? He is unbelievably fast!
@keithhill9901 2 күн бұрын
The playing is unmusical. Supremely boring because it is not cantabile and the polyphony is not perceivable. The playing is of the "trained bird" variety...unless you want to admit that the souls of these players are dead. That is the fundamental problem with playing metrically instead of musically as in cantabile. You don't even pay attention to Marx's reference to listeners. These players don't care about the listeners at all.
@DismasZelenka Күн бұрын
Are you referring to Alberto Sanna or to Valentina Lisitsa?
@dougr.2398 Күн бұрын
@@DismasZelenka yes, sharp criticism with vague, unfocused reference. Slackadaisical!
@NikhilHoganShow 2 күн бұрын
Keep up the great work, Wim!
@paulcapaccio9905 2 күн бұрын
Juilliard should shut down !!!!!!!
@dougr.2398 Күн бұрын
@@paulcapaccio9905 😱 no!
@paulcapaccio9905 23 сағат бұрын
@@dougr.2398 lol I went there BM MM
@paulcapaccio9905 2 күн бұрын
Everyone is playing the scherzo movt of op 26. Way too fast. Inaudible !!! We must play it slower !!!!!!!
@paulcapaccio9905 2 күн бұрын
Op 26 is now perfect !!!!!!!
@paulcapaccio9905 2 күн бұрын
I know play Beethoven sonata op 26 properly. The scherzo movt was always too fast as well as the final movt. I graduated from Juilliard. Now with your channel I can perform these pieces correctly !!!! Thank you !! Pianists must slow down !!!!!!!!!! We were all wrong all along
@naturalroyalflush 2 күн бұрын
Somewhere buried deep in my memory are the words of a composer saying words to the effect ...we make all this effort to produce these beautiful notes which are flushed away in an instant by performers... something like that anyway.
@isqueirus 2 күн бұрын
How accurate were the metronomes in the Beethoven's time? Did 60 bpm equal exactly one second? Looking to Beethoven' s markings and other composers of it's time I don't think it did
@AuthenticSound 2 күн бұрын
almost digitally accurate
@isqueirus 2 күн бұрын
How accurate were the metronomes in the Beethoven's time? Did 60 bpm equal exactly one second? Looking to Beethoven' s markings and other composers of it's time I don't think it did
@Sveccha93 2 күн бұрын
If metronomes couldn’t be regulated, then ALL metronome marks from the time would be useless and meaningless, and single or whole be could still both be correct. This is an absurd point that is, and I mean no offense, simply not thought through at all. You are also gravely mistaken about the technical capabilities of the 19th century.
@isqueirus 2 күн бұрын
@@Sveccha93 You`re right. Makes perfect sense your point. The thing is, many markings of the time look absurd too of so fast they are. My thought process was maybe the metronomes were slower and so I wrote the comment. But yes, I diddn't gave it to much thought and your comment makes perfect sense to me. Thank you for the response
@minkyukim0204 22 сағат бұрын
@@isqueirusActually Clara Schumann once declared her husband’s metronome markings are inaccurate, and later corrected her stance and announced that metronomes from different companies deviate each other and Robert’s metronome markings are working with metronomes from a specific brand. Of course nobody really mentions it here because all metronome markings must be accurate because great composers were not dumb and Czerny’s metronome markings must not work in single beat.
@isqueirus 21 сағат бұрын
@@minkyukim0204 Absolutely, I just didn't want to start a brawl, because there's no point when people are so attached to their believes
@sebastian-benedictflore 2 күн бұрын
All your mention of sources make me wonder what thoroughly-trained, "normal" historians would make of all this, how they would approach the metronome problem from their rigorous perspective. I don't mean this as an insult to musicologists and their work but it would be interesting to see a more outside(r) perspective from reasonably qualified professionals.
@AuthenticSound 2 күн бұрын
with this information you can and probably should read now some of the more recent publications!
@dougr.2398 Күн бұрын
@@sebastian-benedictflore and what makes you think Wim is not reasonably qualified? Hmmmmm????
@sebastian-benedictflore 23 сағат бұрын
@@dougr.2398 I wasn't aware that Mr Winters had a doctorate in history
@frankhainke7442 2 күн бұрын
You convinced me. What is the recording called?
@lawrencetaylor4101 2 күн бұрын
I've made several comments on videos made by Chopin interpreters. They played "slowly" and it sounds great. And then they play it at Big Belt Buckle speed, sorry, concert speed. I don't feel respected. Keep fighting...slowly.
@I_leave_mean_comments 2 күн бұрын
Dude.... why are you talking so slow!?!?!?
@claudiarudolph1735 2 күн бұрын
Thank you so much for this breakthrough content!
@AuthenticSound 2 күн бұрын
thank you!
@anthonydecarvalho652 2 күн бұрын
You're correct. Your battle for the historical truth continues. It's sad Your work is not yet mainstream.
@achaley4186 2 күн бұрын
Game over! ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐🙏🏼