I recently visited the Robert Henri home and museum in Cozad Nebraska. The only similarity in his work with Brackman was in the design construction. I did however run across 2 early Brackman paintings that could have been Bellows or Henri"s. One was a young Brackman self portrait ( even with the signature sailor's hat. Lois Constantine told me recently that Brackman had a hard time understanding Henri because of the language barrier. Your dissertation on these works makes all the sence in the world to me. Thank you.

True art doesn't use stencils, references of any kind, or tracing paper. Using those things would make it an artifice, which is what most modern "art" actually is. Just people copying stuff or tracing over images, etc. Serious lack of creativity and imagination in modern times.

Non-representational art is not imitative.

Thank you, Paul. The Alfred Stevens quote is very good. I, like you, am not interested in AI's perspective (nor AI's personality, if such a thing exists).

A gentle counterpoint using the Bowie example: It's true that the engineer/producer could smooth over his performance. The question is, would he/she when presented with the resulting performance? The producer could also have asked that Bowie do a retake and try to hold himself together. Bowie himself could refuse, and insist on using that original performance. We all have choices, and the existence of the technology doesn't automatically assume the use, or overuse, of it. The human is still a part of the equation.

On AI and art, I recommend reading LM Sacasas and his substack, the Convivial Society, about technology and culture. His recent piece about the cat in the tree was particularly insightful on why AI content leaves us cold.

I think there are pros and cons to AI. what are some of the benefits? Take someone who cannot leave their house for example , someone who cannot get out and paint. So we’re supposed to paint what we see ? So they say, I'm to the point where I like to paint what I see and what I want to see. some of the research I’ve done it appears that mid journey has a little mind of its own ! It wants to create things that it wants to see, and not just what it has learned. So does this help us to encourage seeing things that we want to see ? A photo or from life or from AI ? There may be a benefit of the AI platform. either way, take it or leave it. It’s not going anywhere. Thank you Paul for the video and I hope the conversation continues.

Great discussion. I figure using AI to thumbnail different compositions could be a time saver. I can see that you might want to come up with some prompts and then use an AI image as a reference. I don't think coming up with the prompts counts as YOU creating art. Just my opinion.

This quote by the author Joanna Maciejewska has been going viral for quite some time now: “I want AI to do my laundry and dishes so that I can do art and writing, not for AI to do my art and writing so that I can do my laundry and dishes.” Plus take a close look at A.I. hands... they are so terrible!

I've had this philosophy since the early 90's, when I began atelier studies, that as man moved more into digital tech, those who create with their hands will be heralded above all others. I chose the road less travelled, and still do.

"Mr. Producer." - you sound like a fan of The Great One! 😉

Worth mentioning Orpen also wrote Outline of Art, which you’ve recommended before and is a neat overview of art history.

I'm honored to see my remarks discussed. Just a brief addition: the mentioned Roman/Renaissance concept has its origin in literature, translatio was seen as the rather slavish copying of a text, and imitatio would have been writing in the style of a certain author, aemulatio as surpassing the original authors. I understand there could be some debate if this is 100 procent applicable to the graphic arts, because there it could maybe be interpreted as a problem of verisimilitude vs. style ( a grand debate probably), but if I understand correctly, this is what Steven's meant by ' seeing [reality I suppose] through the prism of the personality'? Regarding aemulatio as 'surpassing', by the way, I see a paradox in this way in AI, because how can the program surpass itself in excellence (how can it judge the quality of what it has produced?), and in this way I see a relationship with the thought experiment of John Searle. But please correct me if I see this wrong.

Constable has his historic place as being a significant influence on the Barbizon painters, men that would work directly with, and teach, ‘the’ impressionists. His critical reception was limited to Paris, where Delacroix is said to have repainted his Salon picture after seeing Constables use of colour. His focus on atmosphere/weather and real places marks him out as unique at a time when Turner was still putting mythological figures into idealised settings. Although it takes some looking, there is a freshness in his work missing from his contemporaries that we recognise as being truer to life. But you can’t forget Constable died before Monet was even born, before paints could be stored in tubes, or before cadmiums were available. He was certainly at the vanguard of his times, but he didn’t benefit from the discoveries of masters who would come after him like Corot, Rousseau, Diaz, Daubigny, etc.

What a great discussion. Thank you, Paul.

Thank you for putting Meldrum’s book out there. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Putting method aside, I don’t enjoy his or Beckett’s landscape work. It’s chalky and largely devoid of light. Really incomparable to the likes of a Sorolla. Their tonalist work is better, and Becketts floral work is impressive, but their outdoor pictures look more like overcast Britain than sunny Melbourne. Meldrums critique of Monet’s colour is suggestive that there’s something he isn’t getting. It’s interesting that Meldrum is a near contemporary of Streeton (and others) but there seems to be little crossover. It’d be difficult to argue Meldrum has better caught the look of nature compared to Streeton.

Gosh…what a wonderful, informative dialogue about art, and the understanding and appreciation of the aesthetics of representational painting. I really loved the relaxed holiday format, I felt like I was sitting in that warm comfortable room with you all. Happy New Year!

Dow's argument in "Composition" is not that nature and the study of it has no value to an artist, it's that the design and form of a painting should come prior to simply imitating nature. He is firmly against imitation, not to be confused with the study of nature. By imitation he is referring to direct copying of both past works and nature itself without considering composition. As he writes: "study of composition of line, mass and color leads to appreciation of all forms of art and of the beauty of nature."

It’s really absorbing listening to Paul in this series. The knowledge you become privy to through the internet! Interesting listening to the pitfalls of copying from photographs compared to life, particularly that you’re using source material that has already interpreted a 3 dimensional world to a 2 dimensional image. But I’m wondering how much of that could also be said of the traditional practice of master copy in art?

love degas

I hear you say it now more like- look and look and look- but the ‘react’ piece mentioned here.. ‘your reaction and the elevation piece should either be there or not be there’ at 8:55.. thanks, Paul..

Paul,the Truth is in the results of your paintings.You can speak of the techniques of painting and the results of your paintings is what you can understand.

I appreciate many of the wide range of topics covered here: - the endless rewards from the pursuit of beauty - continual growth in awareness of beauty - the simplicity of things that can be concepts - just needing relevancy to a handful of people - the difference between concept and the finished painting - finding a best methodology may take the rest of your life, but the result is still a good body of work

What is relevancy, the making of your own relevance? Great questions and discussion, Paul, starting at minute 45. Thanks for this

Paul et al: I’m so sorry I missed this event! I was looking forward to it!

Holbeins work was perfection

Please try to keep that mic away from those smacking noises in the future.

Gem at 33 minutes- we’re communicating lots of stuff, being imbued with nature and all its richness

I have abandoned photography because it’s extremely misleading in so many ways. if I can’t get it down from life or just from my imagination, forget about it.

I think we’re most people draw the line is with the mid journey application. AI can help us in Photoshop and things like that . I know first hand there is a lot of work that goes into creating that way. Some traditional artists like myself believe it interferes with proper drawing skills. But again, I have to remind myself there are no rules in art. I create because I enjoy it. If we create something that is breathtaking which of course is what most of us want, then does it really matter how we got there? From what I know , creating through AI, you have to use your imagination in the first place , and then you create it through all these prompts and things like that and then you still have to draw or paint it or whatever your goal is . that’s still a lot of work ! that still takes skill , that still takes time still takes passion. I guess I’m not gonna be critical on anyone that chooses to take that method but definitely you’re hurting your drawing skills. I have to remember , the banana duct tape to the wall, blank white canvas on the wall , urinal on the wall , such ridiculous art . I think in the end if you’re creating something that’s breathtaking and it’s yours , there’s nothing wrong with that.

Well, AI is recycling images, digital ones (which is already a simulacrum of a painting, not the real deal), it doesn't paint because it is still missing arms and hands, and I don't think painting robots will high on the agenda of future manufacturers. And I'm somehow convinced that AI is still not the equivalent of a human mind yet, someone pointed me to the Chinese Chamber conundrum of John Searle, and though I'm absolutely no expert in this, I think there might be something to it ( I believe by the way this is still an ongoing debate in philosophy and science, divided in its partisans and detractors, not uncommon in these matters). And on a site note: the classical/ roman and later renaissance culture already had distinctions in producing art: translatio, imitatio and aemulatio. I think AI in this stage is still merely translatio (or imitatio at its best), the lowest degree of artistic merit.

This topic has boggled my mind for years now. What is quality, or "good or bad" taste? I've arrived at a very similar point to what you mentioned. It's actually what Husserl calls "bracketing," that is, to suspend one's judgement about the object in the first step and just observe the reaction in the self. In that sense, developing a sense of taste has very much to do with self-recognition because you experience yourself by experiencing the object. As I see it, all we can say in that first step is: I like it or I don't like it. That is an intuitive, pre-theoretical judgment (to speak with the phenomenologists). The second step would then be the why-question, which is no longer intuitive but analytical and theoretical, because it brings the categories of the mind into play. Are these categories the preconditions of my liking? I don't know, and perhaps there is no answer to be given here. A wonderful topic to think about!

So insightful and riveting, to learn from you.

The ermine might be a political point as only nobility were allowed to wear the fur. I don’t know who the lady is but by holding the animal she’s making a point about that I think

Marry Christmas! Stay safe all!

Mr. Ingbretson, I’m currently midway through my first year of study at an atelier, and this conversation couldn’t have come at a better time. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and encouragement on this topic. I deeply appreciate it.

Hi Paul Merry Christmas and happy New year to all of you Thanks again for another great video and I have not heard of the use off the mirror to see your paintings and subjects together as flat surfaces for comparison before. Learning new things every day. Thanks again Sheila

2:00 huh? Whaaa? If one should compare the work to anything it would be the thing itself. A Mirror would seem irrelevant. Not even that self indulgent dude putting down sculpture in his insecurity, rendered mirrored images of what he painted. I guess I just don't understand. But let me not become yet another Flake not seeing Leonardo for some of his shortcomings. He made some pretty stupid mistakes and was not the mathematical Genius that fake sophistoes like my Architecture and design acquaintance (personal friend baby boomer) likes to think he was without really looking into things. Becomes a symbol for the ignorant in many cases. Yah. The elite ignorance. Lol

Always so instructive and inspiring thank you for discussing mirrors. Maybe you might discuss your views on learning about making portraits, how easy did Mary Minifie find getting a likeness and getting that colour relationship to look authentic viewing the portrait ‘as the whole’ . Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas

I do this and I do find it helpful. Occasionally I can see my biggest errors.

Haha love the thumbnail

Glad to hear from you! No idea why my first comment didn't go through so hopefully this one's does. The second comment that you point out in your video is not me. I will never say something like that. For me ai is pure theft. I have much to say but maybe KZbin can't take long texts anymore, so I will leave it at that. Thank you again for holding this video. Theodora.

Is this guy A.I. generated?

Been talking about your... "draw / paint your subject like is coming out of a fog"... To my students... And the more I think that way the more I nail my stuff. From the bigger shape to small to roaming around your work and bulding everything together. It's great. Been absent but getting back to your talks is always a great way of reconnecting with beauty again.

I like Rubens. Heck, I think William Blake was a brilliant artist. Isn't it more fun and exciting to see beauty in everything? I have no ambitions of being a fine artist, but I enjoy learning about it. It just seems unfair to me to dismiss some artists as lesser simply because they don't fit into a specific mold. I sometimes wish I could enjoy all of art! I do know someone who could, however. He would talk about all kinds of artists with great passion, from Rembrandt to Winsor McCay. What a great quality for an artist to have.

A useful piece of artificial intelligence that I have encountered, responds in words to a submitted artwork image. It analyses sensitively, the artwork. It even recommends things to try next. This is Theobot on the Xanadu Art Gallery website. (I have only submitted one image in a free trial, to see what emerged. I was impressed, even though I have no current plans to use it.)

I can describe the process. It starts with a written prompt, following a format such as type of shot, subject, pose or action, outfit, location, lighting, then camera lens and photographer. You choose aspect ratio and a model trained on the type of picture you want to generate. Then generate however many pictures you want. Pick the best one then edit it, zooming in on areas to generate again with higher detail and fixing mistakes like extra fingers. Then edit in photoshop or something similar to finish. The ai picture community has largely shifted to making videos. I have used ai to make reference pictures for drawings. To some extent actual human models are being replaced as reference for artworks.

Thanks for this video and the reading, Paul. “What is mastery? Staying on the path.”