I have not used the Shapton Pro 30K, but I did own the Shapton Glass 30K; a _very_ expensive stone. There are a number of people who swear by the Gokumyo 20K and the Shapton Pro 30K. With these stones, it is very easy to push the edge into over-honing territory. This is a point where the edge is so refined that the steel can't maintain that structure. You either see small chips under the microscope (well, my microscope), or the edge condition under shaving loads doesn't last long. Often, you will see people only take a small number of passes (like 10) on the stone to get around this problem. My opinion is if you want that level of refinement, you can do it just as well, and cheaper, with a soft denim strop (or nanocloth) loaded with 0.5 micron CBN paste or spray. ( 30K grit is has roughly 0.5 micron sized abrasives. )

Thank you, it seems to follow the law of diminishing returns. I would love to see a video of your razor collection.

Yes, its is literally a diminishing returns situation. My razor collection is a bit embarrassing. I keep buying them. At some point, I’ll do a video showing them but that will probably be after I do some shaving videos, so, don’t hold your breath :)

Thank you Martin. Honing is a simple machining operation with _many_ variables. That's what makes it so fascinating.

@greggallant5058 I watched 👀 every bit Greg ,and your a great teacher ! I'd forgotten much of those fundamentals you were covering, well done indeed 👍

Thank you so much! That's very kind. Enjoy Morocco! I've been there. Fascinating place. The open markets in that climate may put you off a bit, but the food is very good, and apparently you'll be in great company.

@greggallant5058 thanks Greg, my lady skaters will protect me , and from temptation 👒😅

Hello! Good question. With razors, I strop in the traditional way -- one handed, spinning on the spine to change direction.

Thank you Bill. I appreciate the feedback! I'm a bit jazzed about that 10K edge. I think it will have very high wear resistance. I may go on a search for the "perfect" 10K. I have an Imanishi 10K that I already know does not produce as nice an edge as the Superstone did.

Thank you for your comment! In the end, I think we learn best through trial and error. With videos like this one, I hope to provide a simple foundation for sharpening. I don't suggest that this is all you need to know. It's just an organized way to get started.

Hi Devan - Thank you for the comment. Though I may not communicate it well, I am trying to advocate a process that proceeds to finer, or coarser grit stones based, primarily, upon using feedback from edge testing. (Assuming that the scratch pattern indicates that strokes are getting all the way to the edge.) If you are spending time on a stone and multiple tests show the razor is not getting sharper, move to a coarser stone for faster results. I have a couple of videos that show this. If you have spent some time on a stone and testing suggests that sharpness has been improved. Push on that stone until testing shows diminishing returns on sharpness, then move to the next stone. With familiarity, you don't need to test as much and this process becomes efficient and delivers very high quality results.

@@greggallant5058 Agreed! 👍

If separate stones are more available than combo stones, that’s the way to go. Knives are generally easy to find some kind of stone for. Razors are harder to find good stones for. You need something in the 1000 to 2000 range, something at 8000, and access to a polishing abrasive that you can put on canvas. if natural stones are more easily available, that might be a way to go.

I have never found any studies or data that relate to the effect of the scratch pattern in cutting. As you mention, in the knife world, many _think_ that the diagonal scratch pattern towards the heel facilitates a slice-cut that starts at the heel and slices toward the toe. My _guess_ would be that the keenness of the edge is the predominant factor in push-cutting, and that the type of scratch pattern would not be significant. You're right that I hold the razor diagonal most of the time. This comes from being a knife sharpener who hone razors :)

I resurfaced the Ozuku. It was already a very hard stone, but the new layer seems amazingly dense and fine. My other stone is a Nakayama Maruka Shouhonyama. It is also extremely hard. I did not notice a difference in shave feel, nor did a see a difference in push-cut performance with the edge off of the Ozuku.

@@greggallant5058 Thank you for the answear. Thats interesting, well done. I don´t have a Ozuku my self, maybe one day. I´am falling for Narutaki stones since some time. Nice that your stone self slurries, despite it´s hardness. Sometimes it´s not that easy to tell what a stone is capable of. For the first impression of fineness I always polish a surface with one stone and than the other half with an other, than view it under artificiality light. A blade with soft and hard steel is ideal for it. Is there a specific reason why you don´t do a hanging hair tests?

I'm mostly done with the hair tricks. I've done a lot of sharpening for knife collectors who want beautifully polished mirror edges that can whittle hair. I find that testing to be cumbersome. I'm aware that the HHT is a common sharpness test for razors but technique and type of hair vary; though I know people who purchase hair so they have testing consistency. For razors, I much prefer the ease of testing with the packing peanut.

​@@greggallant5058 A sharp Knife can/ should whittle hair, yes. The mirror polishes you have done with non japanese stones? It is, looks weird, a half shaved arm lol. I dont do that either. Maybe just a little testing on the back of the hand for tools and knifes. Shure you are. I was just wondering. Saw this peanut test years ago, maybe it was you, don´t remember. Lol purchasing hairs... Ok maybe when someone is bald and haven´t got a partner or so... I have got long hairs, so I try to use one hair at the time, than going back to the stone if the test isn´t that convincing. A thin hair of course is more difficult to cut.

_​A sharp Knife can/ should whittle hair, yes._ Most of these knives are "tactical folders" and they use steels that are very difficult to sharpen. An edge that whittles hair is far too fragile for the hard use these knives are designed for. But the mirror polish looks cool, and it's a parlor trick to show that they whittle hair. I collect these too but have them for show. I do the mirror polished edges with the Glass Stones, or with Venev diamond stones and with strops loaded with diamond pastes. ​

Yes, thinning back into the primary bevel is called thinning behind the edge in the knife sharpening world. Some folks even re-grind the primary bevel as a scandi grind. Too much work for me normally, but I have done it. Your method turns that Old Hickory into a modern cutter and the micro-bevel adds durability to the edge. Kudos!

@greggallant5058 Yeah I try to do that, with as many kitchen knives as i can, cause it cuts so well

Thank you Eric. I planned to mention your excellent comments in your recent Part 1/Part 2 honing video but I have a mind like an open sieve. Absolutely perfect commentary on sharpening with Jnats. I really liked those videos.

A slice cut is more efficient. This has been known, empirically, forever. Even when rocking a chef's knife on a cutting board to cut celery, the knife blade moves down and across the celery like a guillotine; where net result of the motion is a slice-cut. The "Gillette slide" takes advantage of the slice cut motion as well. Obviously, with straight razor shaving slice-cutting is dangerous.

_Bottom line for me is always to find something I like to rely on better than a hanging hair_ I stopped doing the hair tricks long ago. Too fiddly and time consuming for me. _I would have loved to see if you could have pulled that rebellious section into submission with some mild abrasive (CrOx, FeOx) on a somewhat firm stropping surface._ Certainly possible but would have taken *forever* . The mean radius of the Glass Stone 2K abrasive is about 4 microns. The green bar CrOx mean radius is 0.25 microns. Volume removed is _roughly_ related to the cube of these values. So we're looking a volume removal relationship of 64 cubic microns for the 2K vs 0.016 cubic microns for the green bar. This is why the coarse abrasive is so much more efficient.

@@greggallant5058 I was kind of thinking metal manipulation over removal. You had the eyes-on, hands-on to make the call. FWIW, I’ve been using the Herold products. I think green was published at 3-6 micron and red at 2-4. Even with the larger particle size I found cutting improvement and polishing on Suehiro 20k stonework. My typical medium is crowned balsa. The theory that abrasive charged stropping is not the same as honing lead me to experiment in those techniques. Either way, you know the value I place on the peanut test. That shave piece will perform like a champ for any skilled shaver. And, I’d bet money on it.

I have a couple of loaded balsa strops. I think I showed one of them in the knife sharpening tutorial (which did not turn out as well as I hoped). When you load a strop with abrasive, the abrasive still does material removal. The main difference is the compliance of the strop material, and the dependence on trailing edge strokes. One of the reasons I bought the $$$ microscope (about 2 years ago) was so I could _see_ and analyze the effects of different sharpening procedures. It has been enlightening. Even though I’ve been at this a long time, I’ve learned a lot from this tool.

Thank you! I appreciate the feedback.

I finished the video last night and shaved with the razor today. Wonderful shave! I've been aware of Pumas for a long time but your persistence in praising them created some urgency in me to get one. Now I need one with all the bling! As for the use of tape. I'm not a person who passes judgement. If it contributes to one's joy of shaving, then it is the right choice.

I have not looked at the peanuts under the microscope. The polystyrene peanut definitely has a skin, and I've found that the skin's resistance to push-cutting is consistent regardless of the peanut's orientation to the cut. With a little practice, it is quite easy to correlate sharpness with the force required to push-cut this skin. Since polystyrene is a petroleum-based product, there's a move towards biodegradable peanuts which are plant-based. The texture of the biodegradable peanut is different and I need more time with it to determine how to use it for sharpness testing.

Thank you! I appreciate that! Some of my friends tell me they use my long videos as sleeping aids 🙂so I try to be sensitive to video length for those interested in honing and sharpening. Some of my other videos show all of the time on the stones, making a slurry, etc. I always need to break away to use the microscope or strop. In this video, when I realized how much work I would need to do, I started editing in real time.

I totally get it 👍🏻 like you said honing the razor according to its needs!

Please see Boris’ comments on this topic from 3 months ago.

Yes, the edge rolls over and through the slurry. I call the dulling that results from this "bead blasting the apex". It has a side benefit of helping to keep the apex free of burr. The reason I, and most others, perform final finishing without a slurry is to allow the apex to be narrowed more than it could be if slurry were used. On a Jnat that is very hard, and that has very fine abrasive, the only way to remove material with coarser abrasives is to use slurry stones.

@@greggallant5058 Thank you for answering and explaining. 🤝

Thank you Bill. Yes, what you say is true about the relationship between bevel size and razor thickness at the edge. The desire for a small bevel that some folks have takes the focus away from the goal of a uniformly sharp and clean edge. Annapolis.

Thank you! All my videos are located on this channel. I hope you find some of them helpful.

Well, if you have a Jnat, may as well play around with it. Although I have them, and enjoy using them, they aren't "better". Just different. And at the cost, not really a good value.

@greggallant5058 totally agree 👍 some pay thousands for just one rock 🪨!

It is because of the very hard and the forth/back motion, thats why. Schould be avoided.

The singing came from the spine riding on the edge of the stone. It is of no consequence. It's a little like chalk squealing on a chalk board. If you look, the edge at heel is on the stone not the stone's edge. The edge condition at the heel looks just like the microscope photos. I'll be returning the razor out of fear that I'll keep it 😀

@@greggallant5058 It is from the spine, yes. I rather call it crying, it´s not a good sign, will not harm the bevel presumably. But it scratches the spine and the stone, which is unpleasant and not good practise. It is Misshandling of the stone, there is too less lumbricant and too much water.

I appreciate that you are trying to provide good advice. Don't forget, I'm there; being mindful of what is happening in front of me. And this is not my first rodeo. The spine, shoulder, and heel on both sides of the razor are in excellent shape and identical looking. Nothing is scratched. Obviously, HD Shaves, the owner, will be able to verify this when he receives the razor.

​@@greggallant5058 Thank´s, I´am enjoying your vids for the most part, otherwise I wound´t not comment. Maybe there is a little language barrier and my critic sounding harsh. But it´s true, the squeaking sound is no good, it indicates a misfit. And your stone is too hard for some rodeo and wild forth and back thing. It is unnecessary. For old/nice razors it is importend to protect the spine, if it is ok, so that in future someone can enjoy the razor as it was intended to look. Your technic is beautiful besides few little things, good motoric skills. I don´t know why it became fashionable to use ultra hard stones for razor honing. It makes things just difficult. A nice fitted stone can go from bevel set to finest finish with no problem at all, no need for Mikawa Nagura progression, dilution, soap and stuff.

The cheap razors definitely serve their purpose; especially for honing. For shaving, either a Ralf Aust or a Thiers Issard Le Grelot is a terrific terrific choice and a great value (IMHO).

Thank you Bill!

Thank you Martin. The stones feel a little like the Choseras I had back in the day. I'll hone a razor on them next.

It's really just about adding lubrication to the surface. Friction and abrasion are reduced by doing this, so it is a way to eek out a tiny bit more refinement from a stone without going too far and creating an edge that's too fragile.

Basically, Jnats are silcate abrasives in a clay binder. For me, the experience of using them is the benefit. I don't think that they produce better geometric edges. But the edges do have a very nice feel, when shaving, that is different from the feel from other stone types. As for edge testing. If tomatoes work for you, I'd stay with them. Consistency with your method is what matters. My problem with tomatoes is that I eat them before I use them for sharpness testing.

@greggallant5058 , I agree totally, consistency is key 🔑 👏 . I'm skating today ☺️ 🤗!

Thank you Martin. I subscribe to, and thoroughly enjoy, your content as well.

@@greggallant5058 I made full mention of your abilities in todays video ....loading now ☺️

Hi Ramon, and thank you! You are correct, I have another razor that I will use to see if there's an issue with the Ozuku. I have already resurfaced it, and that revealed a beautifully smooth layer of the stone. So I'll be testing it next. Because of the way the chip was smoothed by the sharpening process, I actually think it was there when I started and was refined by successively finer slurries. As for the definition of keen. That comes from the Science of Sharp. Measure the width of the bevel 3 microns (not mm) from the apex toward the spine.

How long an edge will last is somewhat personal; especially if you can refresh your own edges. And, of course, each person's beard type and shaving technique comes into play. From a technique perspective, and if you aren't already doing it, try to shave at lower angles (spine closer to the skin). The edge is quite thin and higher angles introduce more shear forces at the edge, _perhaps_ accelerating edge degradation. Three days seems very short, however. Sometimes, with new razors, the metal quality at the apex will improve after a couple of refreshes. I've seen this happen with two brand new Dovo Bismarcks that I've honed.

No, I haven't but the nagura would behave the same way on a slate as they do on a hard Jnat.

@@greggallant5058 Awesome! I might need to give it a try.

If you like using slurries, I think you'll enjoy the experience with the Black Shadow finish.

I agree with you. And, the size of the chip is consistent with one failing from the stresses of shaving. Furthermore, the smoothness of the shape of chip under the microscope indicates that it went through the whole sharpening process. But ... I would know this for certain, and I could have saved myself some work, had I simply looked closely at the edge before starting :)

My experience with razors that have major geometry issues is that the geometry can be fixed, but so much metal has to be removed, somewhere, that the overall performance just won't be what it could be. Minor issues can be overcome and sometimes create a terrific shaving razor.

@@greggallant5058 I get it to where it is close to a nice shave, but not quite up to what I think is acceptable. OCD thing I guess.

Very good question. Yes, jointing would definitely help. One of the benefits of having this ridiculous microscope is that I can adjust my sharpening process based upon edge inspection. I made heavier-than-usual slurries counting on their bead-blasting effect on the apex and I spent much more time inspecting the 4K edge than I normally would. Had I seen any edge anomalies, I would have gone back to the 4K, jointed the edge, and proceeded from there.

Thank you Boris! When I learned the history of Ern's Hexe machine, I had to have a razor made by his company.

@@greggallant5058 i am proud to say that all my razors are honed following what i have learned from you and i have never gotten better results. The latest dr matt video where he shaves with the 9/8 i made him was honed based on your honing routine.

Thank you Sean. Others have told me that my videos are relaxing. I have no idea why they are. Certainly, watching someone move a razor back and forth while droning on about sharpening won't be exciting :) Anyway, I generally have no plan. As with this video, if I have some sharpening to do, and I think it might be of interest, I just hit the record button.

If you are just starting out with razor honing, then I suggest that you just use your hanging strop. I use bench strops because they are part of my knife sharpening process. No, I would not recommend the Shapton Glass stones for a beginner. They are expensive, have different feedback from most other stones, and punish poor technique. For someone starting out, I would recommend two combination stones and an inexpensive diamond flattening plate. I don't have specific product recommendations at this time, but I will fairly soon. I'll suggest purchasing higher quality combo-stones (Naniwa, Suehiro) and using them for your kitchen knives in addition to your razors to help justify the cost.

Hi Bill - Thank your for the kind comments. I agree. There is a tendency to drive the heel off of the stone. When I edit my videos I'm appalled to see that I do it more than I realize. The accumulation of uneven wear from sharpening at the edge, _and_ at the spine, is the cause of most geometry issues that I find in old razors. If you haven't done enough work at the heel (or anywhere else on the edge), the scratch pattern and edge testing will tell you. When was the last time you saw someone do an HHT on the heel? :)

@@greggallant5058 Performance on the heel is important to me because of my normal shaving pattern. No razor is done for me in till it all matches up. One of the side effects of using a crowned surface is that due to reduced contact area, one needs to pay more attention to where the honing energy is applied. I find in my style in the processing balance, the heel needs the most time, followed by the toe, and the center mostly just falls in place. More difficult challenges often get more hollowing in the back bevel. The added straight line clearance to the edge and/or added steel flexing at that area seems to improve things for me.

Yes, I assumed that even distribution of material removal would take more skill with a curved hone than with a flat hone. Though I don't have time for it now, I have a bunch of questions for you and Jarrod that relate to the difference between grinding a razor initially at the factory and using the same method for edge maintenance year after year. I've sharpened knives on a wheel but not using a sharpening guide that also takes a wear pattern from the wheel as I sharpen. At some point, I look forward to learning what you have to say on this.

@@greggallant5058 I’d love to chat with you sometime. While I limit my forum activity these days, I retain good member standing at The Shaving Cadre. When initiating private information exchange here on YT, I sometimes suggest the free sign up, then giving me a PM there.

I'm aware of The Shaving Cadre from your videos, and from Barber Dave's. Plus, like several of your members there, I enjoy a good cigar. Most of my time is spent on Reddit, but I'll introduce myself over on the Cadre.

You will use that knowledge for the rest of your life; especially for your kitchen knives which, typically, get the most abuse.

@@greggallant5058 looking forward to it. Got 3 razors, 1 from Ralf Aust, 1 Dovo and 1 Thin Blue Line from Hart Steel. I used to let them sharpening them from a experienced Guy but he retired and now I need to train myself.

I use two hands because I am primarily a knife sharpener and we tend to have our hands all over the blade when we're sharpening. It is just my habit. This is not typical practice for razor sharpeners. I try to apply pressure that is evenly distributed between the edge and the spine, and which gives me the most feedback on what is happening at the edge.

Thanks Bill. That TI was purchased from Jarrod and originally had a concave edge on it. After using his edge for a I while, I converted it. While the performance of his edge was just fine, it did not stand above anything I've used before. Obviously, that's just personal bias. I think I have a good handle on the benefits (and drawbacks) of honing on a wheel; having done it, myself, with knives. I'm considering a video that analyzes honing a razor with a curved surface, but there might be too much math and materials science for it to be interesting. We'll see :)

@@greggallant5058 Originally concave? very interesting. In your scope shot, it did not look like any remnant of the concave ‘back bevel’ remained. I found it not too hard to move back and forth between the two. I consider one of the key advantages in the use of a crowned hone is that it clears the way for a flat or almost flat fine stone to work only a small part of the business end of the tool in finishing with minimal force. I generally like to present my honing adventures as just that, “My Adventures”. I have and successfully use shave tools honed by very skilled razor sharpeners who use flattened gear. I try to encourage folks to find their own way to happiness of which there are many. My methods are not easy or inexpensive, but I do like them. Many who have presented unreasonable opposition are sometimes claiming to do so as ‘the protectors of newbies’. I seem to think that opposition lies in the “Not Invented Here Syndrome” and/or Jarrod hate. If you do experiment, I currently create an apex first, then use 4 and 6 foot wheels to back bevel or compound back bevel at about 50-80% then move to 24’ wheel for all finishing steps. I think Jarrod may have another intermediate curve before final. All my curved abrasive hardware has a cross crown, leaving an ellipse. I have not been successful with a totally flat finisher, it may be beyond my current skill level. Should you engage, Good luck.

Yes, originally concave. Jarrod convex-honed it. I reset that bevel to put the geometry back on a playing field I'm familiar with. I don't understand the furor that has gone on for years on the "convex hone" topic. I have no dog in _that_ fight. Seems ludicrous to me. I have noticed that you cross crown and assumed that it was intentional. As for engaging with curved stones ... I've been planning to for a long time. Lots of discussion with Jarrod about this. I'm sure I'll get to it. I _think_ I have a good handle on the balance between the benefits and drawbacks, but experience is the best way to find out with certainty.

Merci beaucoup! ;)