The man who left the Church is dealing with amazing amounts of cognitive dissonance. I feel very sorry for him. Hes in the denial stage of grief right now and doesn't even know it.

Science is reason and information, religion is desinformation and control of your mind.

Luke 8:38-39 NIV [38] The man from whom the demons had gone out begged to go with him, but Jesus sent him away, saying, [39] “Return home and tell how much God has done for you.” So the man went away and told all over town how much Jesus had done for him. John 18:37b “In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.” Why do Mormons who convert to Christianity "not leave it alone"? Two points from Scripture above. First, Jesus had the Garesene man stay in his country instead of coming with him. He became a witness to the people of that region/culture. He was specially equipped for this being from them. You mentioned the calling of Elisha from 1 Kings 19. Before this happened what did God say to Elijah after he had fled from Jezebel? God spoke to him about this very thing. He said "go back the way you came". Second, this was the reason Jesus came into the world. To bear witness to the truth. And we are called to be like Him doing the same.

Great job leaving it alone there buddy.....

I still love going with my family the wards and people are good. But it is so CLEAR to me that the leaders of the church are ignorant prideful Pharisees who have no idea what they are doing.

Imagine wanting to burn things from that past, wanting to move on, but impossibly stuck because a spouse is a TBM. That's my life. Sometimes, I think I'm already in hell.

I’ve been out for about six years now. honestly, I still feel the way that you describe here. I still wish that the Mormon church could be salvaged. But, it likely just can’t be. The only reason I feel like I wanna go back is because my family is there and there were so many lovely promises that were made. But it doesn’t mean much if the promises weren’t true.

The Stockholm syndrome is a curious analogy. I like it. I would say it is trauma-bonding. Stockholm syndrome is kinda BS anyway. But I think that trauma bonding is definitely identifiable in Mormon/Exmo experience. Good take.

A funeral for your Mormon Heavenly Father. It makes sense.

I believe that if you have gone through the temple it might be important to pray and recant the vows and covenants that you made in there. There is a lot of condemnation that was put upon your life during that ceremony. Then make your own promises to sumit your heart to Jesus alone. He is enough and the freedom He gives is boundless. God bless everyone who is breaking free of the bondage of Mormonism's legalism and false doctrines.

Thanks for this episode. I had previously gone through a "burning and moving on" period about a year ago but I've noticed more "remnants" that have stuck around and this episode is what I needed to hear as these things have still been pulling me down.

Speaking of the Mormon Stories Podcast and the topic of Christianity. Everyone should watch the interviews with Sandra Tanner that were just released. They're numbered 1978, 1979. In 1978 watch from the 2:00:00 time to the end to hear what Sandra has recently done for John's view of Christianity. In Episode 1979 Sandra gave a story about the time she was asked to talk about her journey from LDS and coming to Christianity at a Mormon fireside talk, and all the questions she got about it. Definitely check those out. Sandra is also a great great granddaughter of Brigham Young, through his legal wife Mary Angel and their son Brigham Young Jr. So Kai, you are some kind of cousin to her, not that that's too surprising considering he had 57 children. It'd be cool if you ever got to interview her, not sure if she's doing much more than an occasional Mormon Stories Podcast.

Some that leave keep researching church history, trying to find the truth nugget that can break the spell over your family and friends who are still lost in there. But really the focus needs to be learning about true Christianity and knowing that you have a sound biblical theology to share with them. Great show!

Some spicy comments in the chat here. That's understandable. And it's related to the question you asked: Is transitioning to Christianity difficult? Yes and no, and it's not exclusive to Mormonism, it's all of us. In Luke 20:17-18 Jesus quoted Psalms 118:22: "The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone". And he follows with exposition about the stone: "Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.” This cornerstone is Jesus. And anyone who encounters the true Gospel of Jesus Christ will find themselves either fallen on it, or it fallen on them. Nothing in between, the Gospel is a system shock, and it can be painful. Why? Because for you to come to understand the good news you need to understand the bad news first. That news is your state in relation to God, as it is by yourself, you can't stand in front of Him. Isaiah 64:6: "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away." The good news then comes, John 3:16: 'For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." And 2 Corinthians 5:21: "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." And Romans 5:1: "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ". When you realize these things you pick yourself up off the cornerstone and you enter into the vineyard of God, going back to Luke 20. On the other hand you can be crushed by the cornerstone, in which case you're not allowing Jesus to be "crushed for your iniquities". And we pray that you can one day pull out from under it and put your faith in Jesus Christ.

I saw that comment too and resisted the paragraph I was going to write. Also, your MIPO comment is dead on and is exactly how I feel. Nathan hinckley said on MS that he feels like he’s religious damaged goods. That he’s between a rock and a hard place and doesn’t fit in anywhere because some of the Mormon doctrine is burned so deep inside his brain that he can’t quite fit in the Christian paradigm. Man does that ring true and is the contention within my soul.

25:00 Being from northern New England I think we may have you beat for the atheist population per capita of the country, but I'm sure Seattle is up there, never been, but I'd like to check it out. New England is also where all the OG Mormons are from, and it's the culture that they came out of, including Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, both born in Vermont. I actually don't think it's too much of a coincidence, and if you studied their parents and their families and environment I think it would go a long way to getting you to how things started. The people who started Adventists and Christian Scientists were born in Massachusetts and New Hampshire respectively. Again, not a coincidence.

"There is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy. All the rest- whether or not the world has three dimensions, whether the mind has nine or twelve categories-comes afterwards. These are games; one must first answer. And if it is true, as Nietzsche claims, that a philosopher, to deserve our respect, must preach by example, you can appreciate the importance of that reply, for it will precede the definitive act. These are facts the heart can feel; yet they call for careful study before they become clear to the intellect." -Albert Camus, The Myth of Sisyphus Above is the opening paragraph from Existentialist philosopher Albert Camus' The Myth of Sisyphus. This isn't an argument for God's existence, or a reason to believe such a thing, but I think this is perhaps what the feeling you were trying to describe as a lonely, meaningless, futile existence after people become atheists. Camus eventually concluded that we should live in absurdity rather than die in rationality. And we are supposed to imagine that Sisyphus learned to love his work as well. Not sure how much better that makes people feel but there you have it. Christianity is quite the opposite. From 1 John 4: 10-13: "This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.13 This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit." We matter to God, He has given us work to do here, namely, two big things 1) The Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20, Acts 1:8) and 2) being a vessel and reflection of Jesus ( 1 Corinthians 11:1, Galatians 3:27, etc.). We do this, living by faith in the redemption we have through Jesus. We know this world is not the end and remember Hebrews 11:16: "Instead, they were longing for a better country-a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them." I suppose you could imagine that all religions could give you some meaning and purpose, but here's the rub: all other religions are based on works, and so we are back to Sisyphus. Like that reddit comment you showed about how the Mormon Temple ceremonies and covenants are like making a deal with the devil. The work cannot be done completely and perfectly except for by one, the perfect God and perfect Man, Jesus Christ, who did it all for you!

Elements of folk magic in the Mormon Church, how about this: I'm trying to read through the BoM, it's tough for a number of reasons, and I'm not a hobbyist reader, so that's part of it. But I finished the first chapter of 1 Nephi and I feel like Fred Savage laying in bed hearing my grampa (Peter Falk) tell me a story every time I read the phrase "and it came to pass". I'm just in awe that this caught on at all ( I have theories on that, but anyways). Let's just start with the title. There are a couple problems I have with the title even if I cast off my beliefs about it being an ahistorical fairytale. The Book of Mormon. How many Angels do you know in the Bible (Gabriel , Michael, the good ones) that were at one time humans and had lives and families and careers and after they died they came back and called themselves Angels? The number is zero. Do you remember what Abraham said to the rich man in Luke 16, when the rich man asked that Lazarus (a human, who had died) leave Heaven and go to his siblings on earth? He said "‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’" Now I know that there were a few instances where people who had died were seen again. Samuel, in 1 Samuel 28, and Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration of Jesus Christ in Matthew 17, Mark 9, Luke 9. A lot could be said about these as far as exegesis and explanation, but none were called Angels, either by themselves or those who saw them. Samuel was called by a medium or necromancer. And Moses and Elijah, very interesting, were the two in the Old Testament which God said He would show himself to (Exodus 33, 1 Kings 19 respectively). These men also represent the Law and the Prophets, which constitutes the entire Old Testament, but again they were not Angels and didn't claim to be.

I once heard that the Beehive State thing came from the BoM Ether 2:3. Bees are assumed to have kept the Jaredites alive as they crossed the Atlantic Ocean. Joseph Smith also made up the word deseret for the bees (as the Jaredite language) and the Mormon state out west was called the same. About anger Paul says this: Ephesians 4:26-27 NIV [26] “In your anger do not sin”: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, [27] and do not give the devil a foothold. Like Di says it can't be avoided, but we need to guard against sin that could come from it.

I brought up the LDS articles of faith in my comment on episode 18 when you were discussing the Bible, I think I'll have to again here. Article #9 says (in part): ...we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. Mormons have it in their doctrine that the "prophet" will change, amend, re-interpret, shift importance and priority of things. All this goes with the package of Mormonism. I think Di said on an earlier episode that conducting your life like this is like building a house on sand. The whole reason for the garments in the first place is kind of clear when you know that Joe didn't even follow it. It's a control and manipulation tactic, like so much of the religion. Joe wanted people to ask how high when he said jump, not question it. The question you ended with is a good one. What does this have to do with the real Gospel? Christians can say confidently that it has nothing to do with it. Mormons would say this is an important "laws and ordinances of the gospel" from article #3. It's a clear misunderstanding of the Gospel from the beginning.

Kai it would be good for you to talk about your view of the Bible. You say it's your guide and foundation. Di calls it the truth. Can you talk about how you came to put trust in the Bible. Was it after you left Mormonism? What was your view of the Bible while you were a Mormon in light of article of faith #8. To the average Mormon where would you put the Bible if you had to rank it by importance or truth among the other three main books of Mormon scripture.

As Jesus said about leaving your past and following Him: Luke 9:59-60 NIV [59] He said to another man, “Follow me.” But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.” [60] Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”

Taking a look through Doctrine and Covenants there are a couple of passages that give a reason for the taking of tithe. In 85:3: "to prepare them against the day of vengeance and burning" In 119:2: "For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church" As far as the requirements for the giving from the members. From a modern, practical point you have mentioned already about how LDS track people who are giving the correct amount and those who aren't. And how Temple Recommend cards will be given or withheld. In Doctrine and Covenants the penalty for not giving tithe is pretty explicit. There is both a positive (you will eventually receive some physical reward) as well as a negative (you will be burned up and your name removed from the Book of the law of God) aspect to the manipulation. A lot of this is in DNC 85. As a side note, 85:7 is also the passage that contains the idea of the One Mighty and Strong which was a plot point in the Hulu series Under The Banner of Heaven. He is made to sound like a future prophet who will give out a physical reward to those whose families have kept up the law of tithing. Like a Mormon Alex Trebek, he is supposed to give out "inheritance" "by lot".

Got the video going finally. Nice work. A lot can be said about sex and marriage. People need to go back to Genesis 1:26-27 and Genesis 2:20-24 and read it slowly and with attention and focus. It's all sacrament. God is giving a message to us, about Himself, our relationship to Him, His plan for us, all expressed without language. A lot can be said about DNC 132. It tramples on the true New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 7 and 8. And turns it all into a man's quests for self gratification through sex. Sullying the work of Jesus for the forgiveness and redemption of mankind. I'll leave it at that, although much more can be said.

43:10 The writer of the post was most likely John himself because I have heard him voice very much the same thing on his show. John is still very much a Mormon he has not let go of his man centric approach to his worldview, he actually has some Christian bigotry that creeps in especially when he discusses LGBTQ subjects, but he tries really hard not to allow it to come out full force. I think he also wants to be liked by the anti religion crowd that makes up most of his followers now.

My Redeemer Lives is my favorite worship song second place is I Can Only Imagine.

33:21 - It’s easy for them to believe the Mormon view because it is man centric it is about man becoming a god, a man being in control of his own destiny by doing certain things that result in you winning and becoming a god. It’s not about a Holy and Righteous God receiving glory and worship from His creation, it is the creation obtaining glory from God for man’s obedience towards God.

22:26 - Evidence is only as good as is the willingness of the individual to accept it. Example the OJ Simpson trial. Tons of physical evidence that places OJ at the scene. The jury ignores all of that good evidence and focuses on a single glove that has been put through the chemical ringer, and because it doesn’t fit on OJ’s already gloved hand, they lock onto that, and find him not guilty. Members of the jury later admitted to looking for any reason to let him off the hook, not that he was innocent, but because of the Rodney King riots and that allowing OJ to walk free was justice for Rodney King. So when emotions and alter motives are involved good evidence will be ignored to justify a position.

18:27 - This is very much the man made religion creeping in when folks try to criteria “sin”. This is when we need to stop and not look at sin from man’s perspective, but to look at sin from God’s perspective which is going to be a challenge for us humans. We want to be able to say well I’m not as bad as that guy so I should get some kind of credit for being better than he is. But the Bible doesn’t teach that. The Bible teaches that we all have sinned and come short, that our righteous actions are like dirty garments. This again is a big difference between Mormonism and Christianity. Mormonism is much more man centric and hence sin is scalable and through works the severity of those sins can be lessened, you still need Jesus to cover the big issues but you personally can cover the little things. Christians believe that we have equality before God as we are all sinners and all capable of redemption and by the finished work of Christ .

10:06 - The Mormon church has a misguided philosophy on apologetics. For the LDS church the purpose of apologetics is to protect and defend the church. In Christianity the purpose of apologetics is found in 1 Peter 3:15 1 Peter 3:15 ESV but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, We are to defend the faith to give Biblical answers to tough questions. We don’t need to protect the faith hence we can just go to the Word of God and allow God to defend Himself. So Christian apologetics seeks to give answers to tough questions. LDS apologetics seeks to spin, and distract from tough questions.

As a biblical Christian who spent years "agreeing to disagree" with tbm family, I have to believe that God knows the hearts of my family members who have passed away believing whole heartly in Mormonism and that God will judge their hearts by the knowledge that they had. They thought they were following the right Jesus and I trust in a God that is righteous and just. But I have been led to share the ugly truths of Mormonism now as well as the biblical Jesus instead of just keeping my mouth closed for the sake of peace. All while knowing it's the work of the holy Spirit to convict them, not me to convince them.

God will use all things to his glory. Your past experience can help you reach many to find Jesus .

I would be happy to connect.

Such a Christian attitude towards another human. What an example you are...not!

The loss of one's parents when leaving the Mormon church is painful but Jesus knew that it would come to that for many. The Bible verse that mentions giving up family for Christ is Matthew 19:29, which says, "And everyone who has left houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit life eternal". I chose to leave at age 17 when I realized that the Mormon church was not biblical. My father was the bishop at that time. My convictions where strong enough that I knew I needed my name removed from the records and that meant a church court. My dad was the one who would have to perform it. I didn't want to hurt him so I opted to have the stake present do it. This meant that I had to sit in front of 12 men and be told that I was going to lose my eternal salvation. This also allowed me to tell them my testimony of my relationship with the real Jesus and that Joseph Smith was a fraud and that the Mormon doctrine is completely unbiblical.

Excellent episode. When I left the LDS church, I immediately assumed I was atheist or agnostic at least, but one day I was driving alone in my car and out of no where I verbally said out loud to one but myself “OF COURSE GOD IS REAL!” But I knew Mormonism wasn’t true. Factually it was wrong. So that day I went on the hunt to find a new biblical church and found a great one where every Sunday I open up the word while my pastor preaches/teaches and I learn something new. I found love and grace I never imagined. It’s actually a very freeing experience.

This video shows why Christianity seems ridiculous for the ex-religious. The comment at about 33:30 that the Big Bang requires more faith than believing in God is a problem. I can explain evidence for the Big Bang that other people can examine. The evidence for God can only be personal. It is based on personal experiences and the surrounding culture. The Big Bang is supported by, without going into details, the expansion of the universe, the abundance of light elements, the properties of the cosmic microwave background, and the darkness of the night sky. We can go beyond that and explain the formation of the galaxy, the solar system, and our planet. Please read a more full explanation if you want to know more. It is easily found in many places on the internet. Anyone can look at the evidence. That is a very different situation from Christianity.

This is a good response. I saw that comment too. I’m so glad there are faithful channels for us ex Mormons that are Christian now.

Mormonism has everything any Christian would need to believe in God. When someone loses faith in the Church of Jesus Christ due to xyz. That xyz is just as void to them in any religion that is why it is extremely natural for people to become agnostic or atheist after Mormonism. If you hold to the Christian faith you have to continue a different type of the same cognitive dissonance that faith would remedy.

Guy anunciates his words just like John Dehlin.

If they don't accept how brainwash they've been the transition can't even be fathomable I'm an alcoholic I quit drinking 35 years ago that's 35 years of learning I started at 12 years old a lot of people choose their Church probably through their family way before that show the amount of brainwashing or learning per se if you want to call it that is very deep how is the Mormon child till I was 8 years old my oldest brother was killed at that time I was a seer of sorts I know people don't believe that at that time I was done with Mormonism end of search the rest of my life even though already being a Christian 13 following my personal path with God❤

Nobody who doesn't want anything to do with Christianity is that vocal about it. I personally find Christianity not compelling whatsoever, I don't go around telling people. I've been to churches since I've left Mormonism. I have never talked like that. I am only on this video because the KZbin auto-player brought me here.

The Christ in Mormonism is false but there is a real Christ and he gave us a guide, the Bible, to be able to know him and His truth. I left Mormonism once I realized none of the "revelations" lined up with the truth that was given originally to test all new things by. The Bible even warned not to believe even if "an angel of light" told you to. Unfortunately once someone is deceived by Mormonism a large amount of people are so hurt they decide to throw out the truth along with the lies and then the enemy still wins. The grace of Jesus is real and eternity is being with him but not the egotistical mormon version of earning equality and becoming a god yourself. Which was the enemies first lie. Thanks for this great discussion!

Still logically fallacious. There is still no way to demonstrate god. No way to even have god be a possibility.

Why does everyone think they "KNOW" GoD!! Growing up Mormon I did think of God as a mean angry father that demanded Obedience. But then another Christian showed me Gods Love and Grace. Turns out he is good and for us! But still people tell me. God cant lie, God cant sin, God cant look at sin in the least degree. If God cant lie and the devil can doesn't that make the devil more powerful? Is God not all powerful and all knowing? I think wrong for us to think we fully know God. He is a supreme being. We should exercise faith and trust in him. meRRy CHRIST-mas everyone!!!

God is involved in our lives in or out of any church, he cares about the small stuff as well as the big stuff.

I wouldn’t say Christianity is ridiculous, that’s rude, I would just say it’s irrational

Christianity is as far off as Mormonism! Because most Christians do not understand how the sausage was made in the first place! Pauline views are not even close to what Jesus taught! Paul was a Pharisee who used Jesus death as a living sacrifice and in Fact there are texts that say that Jesus was against very much against animal sacrifice and that had symbolically been used for centuries to appeal this God over Israel. That idea got formed over the centuries after Jesus died. He never promoted himself as a God! He called himself a son of man! Son of God was also used to refer to Ceasar.. they saw him as a God. Divine.. men needed a God. They also made many many Gods over the ages. The Bible was a selection of ancient texts! They were like varied puzzle pieces that someone put together and then said and made them fit what they wanted them to say overall. One word in fact can change the whole meaning of an idea.. that happened a lot. Biblical scholars know that! So if it really want to know what’s there listen to Dan McClellan or Bart Ehrman. Not some theological pastor that is teaching only what they have been taught! They are just as indoctrinated as Mormons

Algorithm boost 👏 great discussion

If the premise of Christianity is ridiculous for anything, it is the idea that Jesus is not valid unless a child was born to a virgin 2000 years ago and then rose from the tomb after being crucified. That's plainly silly when a countless number of early Christians have lived and died (and untold numbers have secretly since) having never believed any such thing. The power of the myth of Jesus is supposed to be about the baptism. It is supposed to be about one's relationship with a god, not a man. And yet, if one tells so many a modern Christian that there is no way that the man they read about in the Gospels is anything but a Hellenistic invention appropriating Jewish scripture and culture, their fragile faith is shattered.