TfL mentioned the loss in traffic post pandemic, the 30 is down approx, 25% and the 205 by 15% compared with pre-pandemic levels, obviously the Elizabeth Line is now open taking away some traffic from the 205, don't know about the 30 as the Overground was up and running well before the pandemic, so that's off the table. (also was the loss of traffic over the whole route or a bigger loss over one part) The 205 would make more sense if the N205 was also changed as it would provide a new night bus link.

Although it wasn't the same site, it was the spiritual home of Capital Citybus and the 165 and 365 were there from start to finish. It's interesting that Go-Ahead took over the remaining routes but not the garage, perhaps the move to RR was already in the works.

@@ElmersEnd Also interesting how the 365 has only changed operators when they leave London operations

@@ahuman9143 Indulging in speculation, what if the sale of Dagenham was dependent on the retention of the 165, 179, 252 and 365, if First had retained them or they'd been awarded to Go-Ahead then DM would be included, if not then just the remaining routes and buses would be sold and DM closed. The award of the routes to Stagecoach was announced in January (published in Feb TLB) and the sale of the operations by First was announced on 9th April.

@@ElmersEnd I'm more so surprised that no operator wanted the garage, as it does look like a very nice site compared to the other garages in the area. It also could've been that First already were planning to no longer run operations in London, before announcing it, and just decided to no longer bid for these routes, as they did take the vehicles from these routes to be used elsewhere outside of London operations and wouldn't have wanted to give their fleet away or order new buses.

@@ahuman9143 The other operators already have garages, either leased or owned, taking over DM would have resulted in something else closing, otherwise you'd be adding more costs for no reason, both Go-Ahead and Stagecoach already had enough spare capacity to absorb the DM routes, this leaves Arriva, I think DX and GY have room to expand, in 2013 DX was operating the 128, 135, 150, 173, 325, 647 and 678 and GY the 66, 256, 346, 370, 375 and 499.

Thank you for the offer. It'll always be Edmonton and EC occupies the site of Edmonton Wharf. Although technically it's on the wrong bank of the River Lee, it's still west of reservoirs - which I regard as more of a boundary.

I think it's a difficult site to explain now it's all gone (you can say this about an increasing proportion of London), I was very lucky to find that aerial view that showed the layout with the annex on the opposite side of the road - you can then show where the ground level photographs were taken from.

It's OK, many of us here will see your behaviour as entirely rational.

The non-LRT work of Harris Bus might be worth covering at some point, Grays had a tradition of independent operation pre-London Transport, then after deregulation in 1986 this returned because LCNE didn't register parts of their network. Grays was probably the least 'Country Buses' area of Country Buses.

One of the sheds that didn't operate many routes for most of its life, but the 207, E1, E2 and E3 were all important, after Southall closed things never seemed to settle down again. By August 2025 it'll have been closed (at the moment 31 years 6 months plus change) for longer than it operated buses - 32 years 4 months plus change (Nov 1960 - March 1993).

@@ElmersEnd it was a shame nothing was done to mark the 30 year Anniversary as has happened with other Garages.

@@johnrafferty8087 1993 was quite busy, AP also closed in March, CF and GM (but not the basement) in July, the original GY in September and FY in December. AK (March) and WH (October) had already closed in 1992 and 'proper' PM and Victoria Basement would follow in January 1994.

It appears the photographer visited on a good day.

Belvedere has has been left until there is an update, the latest Google Streetview is from 2019 and doesn't show the warehouse that now occupies the site, same goes for Alperton, latest image is 2022 and shows the site post demolition.

According to the LOTS newsletters, the 34 was awarded to Leaside then reassigned to Lea Valley at Edmonton, the current site replaced Gibbs Road from 27th September 1997, the Leaside Travel fleet relocated there from 27th October and they took over the 34 from 8th November - the 102 and 329 took 5 extra buses between them M-F as part of their new contracts - the 329 to cover the withdrawal of the W2. In January 1998 the 298 moved from Palmers Green to Wood Green and the 125 from Grey Green at Stamford Hill to Palmers Green. In other words, the 34 was transferred to Edmonton to make room for the 125 and the higher allocation on the 329 (between them that's 12 buses, the 34 used 11 x M, the W2 used 9 x M and the 298 4 x Dart). Edmonton was transferred from what was now Arriva Herts & Essex to Arriva London North from 3rd October 1998. I'm not sure what happened to pay and conditions.

Route 47 199 as well ?

Thank you for the additional information, my knowledge of that era is dependent on the various books published by Capital Transport along with LHRG and LOTS. There are a few more garages to do from that era which I'll sprinkle in as and when, but ideally I'd like a better understanding of how things were prior to July 1933 and I want to add a couple more books to my collection.

Alder Valley North (Berks Bucks/Bee Line) was purchased direct from NBC in 1987, Alder Valley South was acquired from Frontsource in November 1988.

The 20, 167 and 275 operated from the new site at Barking which replaced Dagenham in March 1992.

As you know from the video the whole area has been redeveloped, Wharf Road used to run into the industrial area, parts of Wharf Road are now called Morson Road (Morson Road itself is more extensive than Wharf Road was) another bit became part of Meridian Way and other parts of Wharf Road are now covered by buildings. The bus in the video had blinds for the 359 which was withdrawn in February 1992, finding the dates for which that particular bus was allocated to Ponders End would narrow down the date. I've seen a low resolution aerial image from the late 90s which shows what looks like a couple of MB709Ds in the same location (in other words parked next to the River Lee Navigation) but the area in front was a car park - today this is is occupied by the DPD warehouse. I suspect the car park might have taken some of the footprint of Ponders End - but without any images of the area in the early 1990s I have no idea what was there. Ponders End seems to be like North Acton and Ordnance Wharf where the site has been obliterated by modern development.

@@ElmersEnd. Yes I understand I think. As I said before I drove on way back from Brimsdown on a job and decided to visit Wharf Road and no access. A big factory on former site with a barrier on it. I didn't realise that Molson Road is now linked to Wharf Road. I suppose they had to get out and move onto a new unit near bye, ie Molson Road . Don't suppose any one like lots recorded the event ?

@@paulwithers3658 Parts of Wharf Road were incorporated into Morson Road, in my De Luxe A-Z from 1995 page 17 square 8J shows Wharf Road as two physically entities because of the building of Meridian Way. Looking at the images, as far as I can see Ponders End didn't move, but everything around it changed, the River Lee Navigation, embankment and power lines been the consistent presence - they're behind that Bristol VRT with the 359 blinds and next to those MB709Ds in the aerial images. Ideally I'd like more images of the area, I might be able to get a match with a building in the background that still existed in the 2008 Streetview before everything was swept away.

According to the inflation calculator on the Bank of England site £5 in 1967 is the equivalent of £77.43 in August 2024.

@@ElmersEnd Was probably more like 10 bob. Time damages the old brain cells 🤔🤣

@@DinseeNuffin 10 bob became 50p with decimalisation - so sort of a fiver.

Yes, it was commuter coaches and then bus services from November 1989 (?) - this was when the other three Lynx appeared 801 (D 101/2/8 NDW), all ex-Merthyr Tydfil for the 207 and 209. 101 and 102 ended up with Londonlinks. Metrobus grabbed D 103/104/110 NDW from the same source to replace the Bedford YMTs. Later GG got some Leyland Nationals and a 9.8m Dart for their Kent operations. Source - LOTS.

Thank you, it's as you described, apart from the Marshall Dart bit - on my version of Google it looks like there's a TNA or VNL in there, I'm a bit reluctant to go outside the LOTS newsletters as references as anything on the internet can as does disappear. Hopefully your comment will be read, also I want to find out what happened after September 1997 (Westbourne Park was operating DW, M and RML back then), was Isleworth mothballed and then reactivated later, or was it used by First for other work, once I get a better idea of what happened I'll update the video.

Not from 1988-1992.

It's the current Rainham (RM), I'm not sure what the arrangements were when Ensign bought it, but they used it for the sightseeing operation after Dagenham Dock opened, before what was now First moved in whilst HS1 was under construction, then East London for the 25 because Waterden Road closed, before being re-acquired by Stagecoach - who had initially operated from there when they took over the Front Runner operation as part of East Midland back in 1989, which is why it was sold to Ensign.

You're welcome.

This fits comfortably in the 'don't know' category, LOTS announced that they would use the TfL shadow codes for Barking, Beddington and Edmonton in 2001 - which points towards TfL introducing the codes rather than LRT. Kentish Bus and Capital Citybus coded their own garages, which indicates that it was up to the operator under LRT, if you only had one location like Atlas Bus - would you bother? Was Atlas Coaches connected to PanAtlas, or was it just coincidence? As to Battersea, although it appears in the A-Z, Haines Street ceased to exist, the sorting office in Nine Elms opened in 1983. It is odd that there are no photographs of the RMLs parked up on the Sunday at whatever the location was prior to the move to Battersea.

It was the Eastern National garage in Wood Green. www.onthebusesfanclub.com/id45.html

@@ElmersEnd ah right! Myth debunked!

My own view is do what's the easiest to explain to the public, retaining the 45 number complicates the changes, the 5, 10, 17, 20, 23, 26, 32, 33, 44, 45, 46, 48, 50, 55, 56, 58, 59, 60, 67, 69, 70, 71, 82, 87, 91, 92, 94, 95, 96, 97 and 98 have all been withdrawn at some point, some more than once. The 118 goes back to 1936, the modern 45 is a bit of a carpetbagger.

@@ElmersEnd Old routes was a mega shot back in the 1900s throwback.

In my opinion using Marble Arch as a terminus for any route coming from the south is a poor choice, Selfridges or Paddington are better options. This is the second time 'LT' has stripped out the capacity as the old 96 shadowed the 14 between Putney and Piccadilly until it went in the 1958 cuts.

@@ElmersEnd Yh Edgware Road, Maida Vale, Hall Road, Circus Road, Wellington Road and Finchley Road/ South Hampstead didn't happen, Withdrawing Chelsea Old Town Hall make better new link terminus. Passengers likely furious.

@@JAmoahGranite58 But TfL just stripped out capacity along Edgware Road with the changes to the 6, 16 and 332 in April 2023, this puts it back then duplicates parts of the 46 and 187. Extending the 189 south of Marble Arch to South Ken via Kensington Gore might be a possibility, as well as restoring parts of the 10 and 30. Another option is diverting the 148 via Paddington, the Elizabeth Line makes the station more useful than it used to be.

Outside my wheelhouse. Hong Kong & Singapore are sort of the parallel universes of UK bus operation - the same could be said of Malta before it was 'improved'.

That's good, I was very lucky to be able to locate the site. As for being 11 - detail, how many at that age hadn't already been bus drivers, racing car drivers, airline pilots, train drivers, footballers, pop stars etc.

I Like That Brian From Go Coach

One of my favourite liveries and an interesting mix of buses.

As explained in the video and repeated in the text below the video, I've explained the changes in a way that makes sense to me, in my opinion TfL are developing a habit of renumbering routes but presenting them as route changes, 13/82 and 16/332 are examples, for whatever reason, something simple - extending the 549 from South Woodford to Whipps Cross, replacing parts of the W12 has been turned into something complicated by calling it the W14 as well (it would make more sense to use the W12 number for the revised 549). In reality it's the W12 that no longer exists, as very little of the original route will remain unchanged. I've tried to unscramble the egg as best I can.

I always think of Top Shed as some sort of mythical beast as it was hidden from passing trains and hard to view from public roads, this along with the fact that it closed 'early' and demolished with such rapidity/enthusiasm by the authorities - as though it was being wiped from history.

[email protected] The account will be deleted after I've got the message.

Hi, it'd be nice to have some idea of the layout of Ponders End, the modern layout is fairly different to what it used to be, and unlike the LT garages there isn't anybody making any type of official record that future generations can look back on.

I'm finding nothing garage related under "In memorial V" or Tentrek, Tentrek depot, Tentrek yard or Tentrek garage. Is there a registration number or the title of the photograph?

Hi again Ed, I apologise I just found the photo on flicker eventually phew. I typed in Transcity and the second photo was it, by Vernon C Smith. Hope you find any more info on this illusive company !

@@paulwithers3658 I know the one you mean, Transcity bought various odds and ends in the early days of deregulation - I'd have been happier if they'd been obviously Transcity - not even a route number. However, there is a photo of SXA69K in Dartford by David Flett taken in 1986 with a small Transcity fleet name on the side. My thought was 'Five Arches Business Estate' - I had a look around on Streetview, but the earliest view is 2012, 25 years after the photo was taken, I don't even know if this place existed in 1987. There's also the Crockenhill location, I've seen a photo which is just as anonymous. At worst I'll do a placeholder video, I was struggling with North Acton (NA) for a long while before I finally confirmed the site.

I saw some of the videos on KZbin.

Thanks - although I'm distributing information from londonbusroutes.net, ideally TfL should be the primary source of information.

I didn't say anything because although it's mentioned on The Bus Forum, it isn't confirmed elsewhere - you want to be able to refer back to something else.

Scratchwood - I can't find a confirmed location, what did the area look like in 1986? Other current unknowns are Transcity at Ruxley Corner (I think it's on the side of the road as SP), Crockenhill must be the building on the corner, Thorpes on the Wembley Trading Estate and New Covent Garden - some others I haven't checked yet. I've confirmed North Acton and London Buslines at Southall - but these videos might be photo free, I almost got optimistic about London Easylink, but at least I have a better idea the layout of the British Gas site in Old Kent Road back then and where the buses might have been parked. Location of the LCBS works is a shoo in, I think a video going through who bought what and when would be useful, some is covered in other videos but having it explained as a subject in itself would be helpful. I could just do a short saying it all ended up with Arriva (apart from a bit of Sovereign).

No problem - hopefully they'll add some of the fleet books and LCBS route working indexes soon.

The Greenwich base was Ordnance Wharf, I've been looking into it, sometimes you get lucky and some intrepid photographer has gone there, but not in this case, it was only used for one year. If I could find a good source of aerial photographs from the late 80's/early 90's things would be easier as I could show the viewers that image as groups of red (or any other colour) rectangles on the ground gives a good idea of where the site was. Rainham took a bit of time to sort out geographically, the whole area has been eradicated and a new access road has been built through it, luckily the current Stagecoach site is very much active so you can cross link the location as they had a common boundary in a couple of areas.

Thanks Ed, I shall look it up on the map. I took a look at the 188 route on Ians Bus Route site and be called it GR Code. For the 108 route MS is a bit of a mystery for me as it ran with the 188 from Greenwich. Another ex driver who now works at Go ahead Morden Wharf depot. He said the Boroline depot is now where a car park for the dome is. I will have to visit the area. I'm waiting more info from him on a bus site.

@@paulwithers3658 Apparently the 188 moved there from Crayford which meant that Lynx could appear on the route, it was re-tendered one year early by LRT, but Boro'line then got the 272/472 instead. All the takeovers resulted in some of the ex-Boro'line Volvos ending up at Walworth where they could appear on the 188 again.

The sites in Kings Cross were covered because of Green Line route 727 and I wondered where they were - any other coach coverage tends to be connected to bus operations. I am confident that I know less about coach operations than you do. Don't forget that Armchair was acquired by Metroline via ComfortDelGro in November 2004, remember DP 962 running around on Potters Bar routes 84, 234, 384 and W9 in orange after the 485 was lost to Go-Ahead in 2006?

I've looked through The London Bus for all of 2008 and there's no mention that I can see in the Metrobus sections about them using it as overflow parking, the daytime operation of the 119 moved to Croydon along with 468-485 to make space for the First routes. In TLB521 the news for First London says that all their buses had been moved out of Y by 9th December 2007.

@@ElmersEnd It was part of the sale to Go Ahead. It was mothballed until 16.03.13 when we took over Route 126 at MB. 15 buses were outstationed at Y each night. They were for a variety of routes and the drivers signed on and off at MB. They travelled between the two sites on light running buses that were travelling between MB and various start/finish points. The site closed after 11.01.14 and then sold. Info on the Metrobus history page. images-metrobus.passenger-website.com/downloads/fleet-history1808.pdf